egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Lighthouse said: That would be an antitheist, atheism is a position of neutrality You're intelligent enough to appreciate that there is argument galore about the definition of atheism but, semantics aside, it must be accepted that a person is born with neither a belief nor disbelief in God or religion (the latter not being a requirement to believe in the former). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: Agnosticism is a position of neutrality Fixed it for you Edited 27 June, 2021 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 We are all children of God. Which God tbat is is open to conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 22 minutes ago, egg said: You're intelligent enough to appreciate that there is argument galore about the definition of atheism but, semantics aside, it must be accepted that a person is born with neither a belief nor disbelief in God or religion (the latter not being a requirement to believe in the former). I would agree wholeheartedly. No point arguing over words when we basically mean the same thing. Trousers - That’s not quite true, pretty much everyone is agnostic whether they believe in a higher being or not. You can be an agnostic Christian if you acknowledge that there’s no reason to believe what you do but choose to believe it anyway. The only way not to be agnostic would be to prove the existence of a god, which some people believe they have through various means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Lighthouse said: I would agree wholeheartedly. No point arguing over words when we basically mean the same thing. Trousers - That’s not quite true, pretty much everyone is agnostic whether they believe in a higher being or not. You can be an agnostic Christian if you acknowledge that there’s no reason to believe what you do but choose to believe it anyway. The only way not to be agnostic would be to prove the existence of a god, which some people believe they have through various means. On your latter point. Proving the existence of a god will never happen as one can never scientifically prove the existence of faith, and by extension, who or what - if anything) they put their faith in. The truth though is that we all live by faith of sorts, the difference is the extent to which we acknowledge or accept that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 29 minutes ago, trousers said: Fixed it for you Does a new born baby have a 'view' of anything, let alone the whether the existence of God is or isn't knowable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Turkish said: No one is born an atheist either Atheist = not holding a belief in god Babies do not have a belief in God = every baby there has ever been is/was an atheist The indoctrination and brainwashing happens when children are older. Edited 27 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: Atheist = holding a belief in god Babies do not have a belief in God = atheist Babies dont have a belief or disbelief in anything Matthew. That does make them an atheist. Bit like you weren’t born a dickwad, you became one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Atheist = holding a belief in god Babies do not have a belief in God = atheist Simple yes or know Matty - do you agree that a child is born with neither a belief nor disbelief in God or religion? The title slapped on it is irrelevant. Edited 27 June, 2021 by egg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Turkish said: Babies dont have a belief or disbelief in anything Matthew. That does make them an atheist. Bit like you weren’t born a dickwad, you became one This post just further highlights your ignorance on this topic. Theism and atheism is a binary choice of belief in a god, there is no 3rd option! You either believe in a god (theist) or you do not believe in a god (atheist). Every baby there has ever been does not believe in a god so is an atheist. Agnosticism deals with knowledge... not belief. It is not a third option when it comes to belief. Agnosticism is a subset of both atheism and theism. Edited 27 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, egg said: Simple yes or know Matty - do you agree that a child is born with neither a belief nor disbelief in God or religion? The title slapped on it is irrelevant. My previous answer to Turkish one post up explains. Edited 27 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: My previous answer to Turkish one post up explains. I think we agree that babies are born neither believing nor disbelieving in anything. You can slap whatever title you want om that, the principle is agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: This post just further highlights your ignorance on this topic. Theism and atheism is a binary choice of belief, there is no 3rd option! You either believe in a god (theist) or you do not believe in a god (atheist). Every baby there has ever been does not believe in a god so is an atheist. Agnosticism deals with knowledge... not believe. It is not a third option. Agnosticism is a subset of both atheism and theism. Jesus wept “Atheism is a binary choice of belief” so when a baby is born how have they at that point chosen to believe or not believe in anything ? what an own goal and you call me ignorant 🤣🤣🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, egg said: I think we agree that babies are born neither believing nor disbelieving in anything. You can slap whatever title you want om that, the principle is agreed. Which makes all babies atheist. Not believing in a god = atheist. You are bringing 'disbelief' into it when that is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, egg said: I think we agree that babies are born neither believing nor disbelieving in anything. You can slap whatever title you want om that, the principle is agreed. He even acknowledges when calling me ignorant that atheism is a choice. A baby when entering the world has not yet made that choice, ergo not born no atheist. another own goal from Matty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: Which makes all babies atheist. Not believing in a god = atheist. You are bringing 'disbelief' into it when that is irrelevant. No it doesn’t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Turkish said: Jesus wept “Atheism is a binary choice of belief” so when a baby is born how have they at that point chosen to believe or not believe in anything ? what an own goal and you call me ignorant 🤣🤣🤣 You are still unable to grasp the basics of what an atheist and theist is. Atheist = not believing in a god. It doesn't require a choose to be made. There are two option... 1) You belief in a god or gods 2) You don't believe in a god or gods There is no 3rd option. So yes, you are ignorant of the basics of this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: Which makes all babies atheist. Not believing in a god = atheist. You are bringing 'disbelief' into it when that is irrelevant. Of course its relevant. A baby has no idea of the concept of God, thus their is neither belief nor disbelief. Let's move this along. At what point do you say that babies start to develop faith in something other than themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: You are still unable to grasp the basics of what an atheist and theist is. Atheist = not believing in a god. It doesn't require a choose to be made. There are two option... 1) You belief in a god or gods 2) You don't believe in a god or gods There is no 3rd option. So yes, you are ignorant of the basics of this discussion. Laughable that you are apply this to a baby. Embarrassing Edited 27 June, 2021 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Turkish said: No it doesn’t When it comes to the question... 'Do you believe in a god' what do you think the options are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Turkish said: Laughable that you are apply this to a baby. Embarrassing Why is it laughable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: When it comes to the question... 'Do you believe in a god' what do you think the options are? Ask a baby and see what they say, as this is what the point is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: Why is it laughable? If you don’t know then I’m afraid I can’t help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, egg said: Of course its relevant. A baby has no idea of the concept of God, thus their is neither belief nor disbelief. When it comes to the question... 'Do you believe in a god' what do you think the options are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, egg said: Of course its relevant. A baby has no idea of the concept of God, thus their is neither belief nor disbelief. Let's move this along. At what point do you say that babies start to develop faith in something other than themselves? Schrodinger's baby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Turkish said: If you don’t know then I’m afraid I can’t help you. You haven't grasped the basic definitions of the key terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, Turkish said: Ask a baby and see what they say, as this is what the point is. Try answering the question 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: You are still unable to grasp the basics of what an atheist and theist is. Atheist = not believing in a god. It doesn't require a choose to be made. There are two option... 1) You belief in a god or gods 2) You don't believe in a god or gods There is no 3rd option. So yes, you are ignorant of the basics of this discussion. Mate, this ain't a theological debate. It's a really simple point that a baby is born with no opinion on anything. You can call that what you want. On the wider point, there's a variety of theories on what defines atheism. Some point say there is agnosticism, others dispute it. Who gives a shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: When it comes to the question... 'Do you believe in a god' what do you think the options are? Answer the question. At what point do you say that babies start to develop faith in something other than themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Try answering the question 🙄 Not all questions are valid or relevant questions that require answers. Your questions falls under this category. Not for the first time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, egg said: Mate, this ain't a theological debate. It's a really simple point that a baby is born with no opinion on anything. You can call that what you want. On the wider point, there's a variety of theories on what defines atheism. Some point say there is agnosticism, others dispute it. Who gives a shit. Agnosticism deals with knowledge... not belief. It is not a third option when discussing belief. Knowledge is a subset of belief. You can be a... 1) agnostic atheist 2) gnostic atheist 3) agnostic theist 4) gnostic theist Both you and @Turkish haven't grasped this. Belief in god is binary, you either believe or you don't believe. Atheism is not the claim there are no gods. If you don't believe in a god then you are an atheist. So babies are atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: Agnosticism deals with knowledge... not belief. It is not a third option when discussing belief. Knowledge is a subset of belief. You can be a... 1) agnostic atheist 2) gnostic atheist 3) agnostic theist 4) gnostic theist Both you and @Turkish haven't grasped this. Belief in god is binary, you either believe or you don't believe. Atheism is not the claim there are no gods. If you don't believe in a god then you are an atheist. So babies are atheist. Babies don’t believe in anything. It’s really not hard to grasp. In fact it’s only you that seems to be struggling with the concept. When you think it’s everyone else it usually isn’t Matthew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 3 minutes ago, egg said: Answer the question. At what point do you say that babies start to develop faith in something other than themselves? I don't know, but when indoctrination/brainwashing starts is irrelevant to babies being born atheist. Faith is the excuse people make for believing in something without evidence. If you had good evidence... you wouldn't need faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Turkish said: Babies don’t believe in anything. It’s really not hard to grasp. In fact it’s only you that seems to be struggling with the concept. When you think it’s everyone else it usually isn’t Matthew. I agree, babies don't believe in anything. Non belief in a god = atheist. So babies are atheist. You still have not grasped that being an atheist does not automatically mean you claim knowledge there are no gods. I really don't know how I can break this down any simpler for you. You and @egg aren't grasping the basics. Do you agree that... knowledge is a subset of belief. You can be an... 1) agnostic atheist 2) gnostic atheist 3) agnostic theist 4) gnostic theist ??? Edited 27 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 31 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Atheist = holding a belief in god Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: Really? Clearly a typing mistake. Edited 27 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: I agree, babies don't believe in anything. Non belief in a god = atheist. So babies are atheist. You still have not grasped that being an atheist does not mean you claim knowledge there are no gods. I really don't know how I can break this down any simpler for you. You and @egg aren't grasping the basics. Do you agree that... knowledge is a subset of belief. You can be an... 1) agnostic atheist 2) gnostic atheist 3) agnostic theist 4) gnostic theist ??? So if they don’t believe in anything then they also cannot not believe in anything as non believing is a form of belief. Ergo you have chosen to believe something doesn’t exist. as you pointed out earlier “atheism is a binary choice” So by your own admission if a baby cannot chose to believe in something it also cannot chose not the believe in something well done we’re getting there 👏👏👏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: I agree, babies don't believe in anything. Non belief in a god = atheist. So babies are atheist. You still have not grasped that being an atheist does not mean you claim knowledge there are no gods. I really don't know how I can break this down any simpler for you. You and @egg aren't grasping the basics. Do you agree that... knowledge is a subset of belief. You can be an... 1) agnostic atheist 2) gnostic atheist 3) agnostic theist 4) gnostic theist ??? Not sure that is strictly true. An Atheist : Quote is “a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods,” according to Merriam-Webster Surely, someone would need to understand the definition of what a god is in order to not believe in them? Otherwise you could claim that all dogs are atheist. All trees are atheist. All fish are atheist ad infinitum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Clearly a typing mistake. 🤣🤣🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Turkish said: 🤣🤣🤣 Why is that funny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: You either believe in a god (theist) or you do not believe in a god (atheist). Which of those two words would you use to label me? I've no idea if there's a God or not and I spend zero time pondering whether I believe one or the other. Edited 27 June, 2021 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 45 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: Does a new born baby have a 'view' of anything, let alone the whether the existence of God is or isn't knowable? I've no idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: Why is that funny? You don’t know what an atheist is 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said: Not sure that is strictly true. An Atheist : Surely, someone would need to understand the definition of what a god is in order to not believe in them? A gnostic atheist would make that claim. But gnostic atheism is a sub set and shouldn't be applied to all atheists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Turkish said: You don’t know what an atheist is 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, trousers said: Which of these words would you use to label me? I've no idea if there's a God or not and I spend zero time pondering whether I believe one or the other. An agnostic atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 What a great start to the day MLG proving he doesn’t know what an atheist is MLG embarrassing himself by prattling on about belief systems in babies MLG scoring about 5 more own goals im off out for a run, catch up later chump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: A gnostic atheist would make that claim. But gnostic atheism is a sub set and shouldn't be applied to all atheists. Are dogs atheist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: An agnostic atheist. Why an agnostic atheist? Why not an agnostic theist? Edited 27 June, 2021 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said: Are dogs atheist? If they don't believe in a god... then yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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