Southampton's signings over the past decade

[ozzmeister]

Apologies if mentioned already but did we not used to 'market' ourselves to players as the club to play for to get in the shop window.We'd play attractive, expansive football and give players a chance to show what they can do - especially when the big big clubs werent willing to take a risk yet. I'm sure that was the case with Mane.

Not sure that is part of our marketing strategy any more.

[TWar]

1 minute ago, ozzmeister said:

Apologies if mentioned already but did we not used to 'market' ourselves to players as the club to play for to get in the shop window.We'd play attractive, expansive football and give players a chance to show what they can do - especially when the big big clubs werent willing to take a risk yet. I'm sure that was the case with Mane.

Not sure that is part of our marketing strategy any more.

I think it still is, IIRC Diallo said something which alluded to us being a stepping stone. I think it's less focused on now as we haven't made a big sale in a good while. 

[Turkish]

39 minutes ago, SKD said:

You also claimed that Ralph is a bigger pull to attract players than Koeman, which is complete and utter rubbish. 

There were several reports at the time that players new and old were relishing playing under someone as big as Koeman. 

Id argue that all of his jobs before us were more high profile than a newly promoted team (judging them on 2015/16 not now). And I’m including assistant manager of Barcelona. 

Koemans previous jobs before us include 3 biggest clubs in Holland, biggest club in Portugal and 4th biggest club in Spain. 3 league titles and 3 cups. V Hassenhuttls one good season with Leipzig. Laughable this is even a discussion 

[Matthew Le God]

2 hours ago, CB Fry said:

To pretend RB Leipzig are just a normal "newly promoted team" is equally nonsense. 

You expecting Brentford to finish second and end up un the Champions League semis the following season?

You've imagined I've said things I haven't said. 

[SKD]

13 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

You've imagined I've said things I haven't said. 

And you took a snippet of what I said and took it out of context. 

TWar claimed that RB (at the time) where a powerhouse of European football and that makes Ralph’s CV super impressive, much better than managing some of the biggest clubs in Europe like Koeman had. 

He also claimed that it was a super impressive achievement to finish second with RB. 

So what is it? They’re a superpower of which finishing second and getting CL football would be expected or they weren’t and he done a decent job? 

Personally, I think it was a combination of the two. The season they finished second they had a very good squad and obviously they have a great scouting network and money to back. They’re not a standard newly promoted team. But obviously it was a decent achievement for him. 
 

Regardless, Koeman for a club of our size is / was a much, much bigger name. 

[TWar]

32 minutes ago, SKD said:

And you took a snippet of what I said and took it out of context. 

TWar claimed that RB (at the time) where a powerhouse of European football and that makes Ralph’s CV super impressive, much better than managing some of the biggest clubs in Europe like Koeman had. 

He also claimed that it was a super impressive achievement to finish second with RB. 

So what is it? They’re a superpower of which finishing second and getting CL football would be expected or they weren’t and he done a decent job? 

Personally, I think it was a combination of the two. The season they finished second they had a very good squad and obviously they have a great scouting network and money to back. They’re not a standard newly promoted team. But obviously it was a decent achievement for him. 
 

Regardless, Koeman for a club of our size is / was a much, much bigger name. 

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Manchester United are a big side but finishing second is still an achievement as there are other big sides like Chelsea and Liverpool. RBL were a big side and hence a much bigger job than Koeman had had when he joined us but finishing above Dortmund, for example, was quite the achievement nonetheless.

My sole claim with regards to this thread is that Ralph managed a club who finished 2nd in one of Europes top 5 leagues and Koeman only managed one that finished 15th. You can rate Portuguese and Dutch football as highly as you like, I don't, I think half the teams in those leagues are league one quality. Ralph was a lot more impressive a manager for me when signing. You can keep saying how big the Dutch and Portuguese teams are but I'm not going to agree, they are nothing compared to the sides you get in big leagues like France, Spain, England, Germany, and Italy. Anyway, this argument is getting tedious.

Koeman is a good manager who went on to prove himself, and has now comfortably surpassed Ralph, and we were an important stepping stone in that process but our team (including VVD, Mane, Tadic, ect.) was easily the best team he'd ever been in charge of. Ralph had already proven himself at a much better club than us with a much stronger side and is now trying to maintain his reputation with a weak prem side. You can argue that Koeman had more sway owing to his name from his playing career, I don't agree but I respect it as an opinion. You can also argue you think teams like Ajax, Benfica and Feyenoord are bigger sides and attract bigger talent than RB Leipzig, and I'd say that is a crazy point of view. But I personally think we have gotten to the point where we are all just restating our opinions to point score and I don't think that in conducive to a worthwhile debate.

Edited 15 June, 2021 by TWar

[Lord Duckhunter]

On 14/06/2021 at 08:49, TWar said:

I don't think Koeman had much pulling power personally, we were his first major job outside of Holland. 

 

22 minutes ago, TWar said:

 

My sole claim with regards to this thread is that Ralph managed a club who finished 2nd in one of Europes top 5 leagues and Koeman only managed one that finished 15th. 

I think people can see for themselves exactly what you claimed. No wonder you want to move on, you’ve been found out.

Why don’t you just admit you didn’t realise or forgot that Koeman had “high profile” jobs outside of Holland prior to us. The discussion  wasn’t about his record, but the profile of the clubs he managed. If you think Southampton is a “major job”, then his jobs in the Portuguese & Spanish leagues were, regardless of where they finished. You’ve changed the terms of the debate because you made a chump of yourself. 

[TWar]

17 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 

I think people can see for themselves exactly what you claimed. No wonder you want to move on, you’ve been found out.

Why don’t you just admit you didn’t realise or forgot that Koeman had “high profile” jobs outside of Holland prior to us. The discussion  wasn’t about his record, but the profile of the clubs he managed. If you think Southampton is a “major job”, then his jobs in the Portuguese & Spanish leagues were, regardless of where they finished. You’ve changed the terms of the debate because you made a chump of yourself. 

I already said it was unfair of me to say the Valencia and Benfica jobs weren't major here:

"Maybe it is unfair for me to say his first "major job" outside of Holland owing to his stint in the Portuguese league and his failed stint in Spain, but we were certainly his first role that actually upped his status and his background was certainly a lot less impressive than Ralphs."

In literally my first post after saying it. I have no issues admitting that "major job" is an unfair metric and Valencia does count as one regardless of his short stint there and poor league position. I tried to bring the argument back to my original point which was "Ralph had more pulling power than Koeman during their respective tenures with us because he had a more impressive CV". If you want to discuss that then we can, but this pedantic "gotcha" style argument where you hone in on a single sentence and don't discuss the overall point is really boring and only leads to pointless fights rather than interesting discussions. You are kind of proving this with all the "you've been found out" and "you made a chump of yourself". You can have a debate about things without immediately trying to make it into a childish squabble.

Edited 15 June, 2021 by TWar

[SKD]

2 minutes ago, TWar said:

I already said it was unfair of me to say the Valencia and Benfica jobs weren't major here:

"Maybe it is unfair for me to say his first "major job" outside of Holland owing to his stint in the Portuguese league and his failed stint in Spain, but we were certainly his first role that actually upped his status and his background was certainly a lot less impressive than Ralphs."

In literally my first post after saying it. I have no issues admitting that "major job" is an unfair metric and Valencia does count as one regardless of his short stint there and poor league position. I tried to bring the argument back to my original point which was "Ralph had more pulling power than Koeman during their respective tenures with us because he had a more impressive CV". If you want to discuss that then we can, but this pedantic "gotcha" style argument where you hone in on a single sentence and don't discuss the overall point is really boring and only leads to pointless fights rather than interesting discussions.

I’m amazed that you seriously think this though. Regardless of what you think about their success or lack of, Koeman is and was a huge name in football, hence how he has got the jobs he has since leaving Everton (Holland and Barca). Ralph, other than 1 good season at RBL, is relatively speaking unknown. Hence why we managed to get him and keep him.

Do you think Ralph would have the reputation to attract a CL finalist from the previous year, like Toby. 

I guess by your very own logic, Ranieri would have more ‘pulling power’ than Ralph? 

[TWar]

15 minutes ago, SKD said:

I’m amazed that you seriously think this though. Regardless of what you think about their success or lack of, Koeman is and was a huge name in football, hence how he has got the jobs he has since leaving Everton (Holland and Barca). Ralph, other than 1 good season at RBL, is relatively speaking unknown. Hence why we managed to get him and keep him.

Do you think Ralph would have the reputation to attract a CL finalist from the previous year, like Toby. 

I guess by your very own logic, Ranieri would have more ‘pulling power’ than Ralph? 

I don't think Koeman attracted Toby, I think our good league position coupled with relative spending power, and the fact it was a loan so it was more a temporary arrangement to get his stock up in England attracted Toby. He gave a "I'm excited to work under the manager" speech in his signing on interview as is reasonably standard, but he clearly wasn't that excited as the following summer he rejected our option to buy and went to spurs.

To answer your question, yes, I do think Ralph in the same situation with the same squad and funding would have been able to do the exact same. Tricky to prove obviously, but I don't think Toby came due to his massive admiration, more it was a good opportunity to get his name out there in the UK, which worked.

Regarding the jobs Koeman got, I don't think the Holland job is very prestigious tbh, De Boer got it off the back of a woeful 5 game spell with Palace and then a spell in the MLS. He got the Barca job, which was really impressive given that his stock probably fell with Everton after leaving us, but I think that is a case of hiring an ex-player to win over the fans, similar to Ole and Lampard albeit with a more more established and higher quality manager, a strange trend which I hope soon finishes. Also regarding our ability to get and keep Ralph, getting him was a massive coup admittedly, and most said this at the time. I think we managed it by giving him a massive amount of power over the club and how it is run.

Regarding Ranieri, I do think he would have pretty good pulling power yes, he's managed some massive clubs and is a huge name in football and was well before he won the title with Leicester. But I think the point is pulling power is almost entirely due to the club and how rich they are as well as their own personal recent success and quality rather than a big name in charge in 95% of circumstances.

Edited 15 June, 2021 by TWar

[Lord Duckhunter]

Toby Alderweireld played nearly 200 hundred games for Ajax where Ronald Koeman won  titles as a manager & player and is a legend. He specifically said he was signing for Koeman. But according to this plank, it was just Saints pulling power after finishing 8th, and despite losing all our best players and manager. It was just the normal run of the mill comments every player makes. Whereas Ralph, after his magnificent managerial  career, really has pulling power. 
 

Wow, does he really believe the pony he writes. 

Edited 15 June, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[TWar]

8 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Toby Alderweireld played nearly 200 hundred games for Ajax where Ronald Koeman won  titles as a manager & player and is a legend. He specifically said he was signing for Koeman. But according to this plank, it was just Saints pulling power after finishing 8th as well as losing all our best players and manager. Wow, does he really believe the pony he writes. 

Clearly loved him, that's why he signed for us and not spurs. Plus he joined Ajax years after Koeman left, they were both at the same club years apart therefore the deal must have been due to koeman, that's some sound logic... 

Also do you have a quote saying he was specifically signing because of koeman, not a "I'm excited to play under this gaffer" that is said all the time, or are you talking nonsense as usual? 

Edited 15 June, 2021 by TWar

[CB Fry]

11 minutes ago, TWar said:

Clearly loved him, that's why he signed for us and not spurs. Plus he joined Ajax years after Koeman left, they were both at the same club years apart therefore the deal must have been due to koeman, that's some sound logic... 

Also do you have a quote saying he was specifically signing because of koeman, not a "I'm excited to play under this gaffer" that is said all the time, or are you talking nonsense as usual? 

Why do you keep going on about Spurs? Not one person here is saying he signed for Koeman and said he would never ever play for any other manager ever again for the rest of his career.

You have absolutely embarrassed yourself on this thread, you really need to just take the defeat mate.

[Lord Duckhunter]

What people are saying is (in their opinion)  he wouldn’t have played for Southampton if  Ronald Koeman wasn’t  manager. It’s not that difficult to understand. The fact he went off and played for another club doesn’t make a blind bit of difference to that. 

Edited 15 June, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[TWar]

9 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What people are saying is (in their opinion)  he wouldn’t have played for Southampton if  Ronald Koeman wasn’t  manager. It’s not that difficult to understand. The fact he went off and played for another club doesn’t make a blind bit of difference to that. 

So when you say

 

36 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 He specifically said he was signing for Koeman

you mean it's just what you reckon.

[TWar]

18 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Not one person here is saying he signed for Koeman

This guy said literally that

"He specifically said he was signing for Koeman."

In the post I was replying to, what are you on about? 

 

[CB Fry]

10 hours ago, TWar said:

This guy said literally that

"He specifically said he was signing for Koeman."

In the post I was replying to, what are you on about? 

 

That's some pretty impressive selective quoting there: the second half of the sentence you decided to cut was the critical point, the sentence exists as a whole for you to read and digest. Try it.

You have several times used the fact that Toby subsequently signed for Spurs as "proof" that Koeman was not a factor in him signing for us in the first place.

As I say, stop embarrassing yourself. 

Edited 16 June, 2021 by CB Fry

[egg]

So, trying to avoid the nonsense "debate" about the pulling power of the well known Koeman and the unknown Hasenhuttl, if that list is accurate, we spent £126m on MOI, Gunn, Hoedt, Carillo, Lemina, Boufal, Gabbi, Clasie, Juanmi. Plus their signing on fees, wages, agents fees, etc. 

What an absolute clusterfuck. 

 

[TWar]

2 hours ago, CB Fry said:

That's some pretty impressive selective quoting there: the second half of the sentence you decided to cut was the critical point, the sentence exists as a whole for you to read and digest. Try it.

You have several times used the fact that Toby subsequently signed for Spurs as "proof" that Koeman was not a factor in him signing for us in the first place.

As I say, stop embarrassing yourself. 

The point I'm making is that there is no evidence he signed for Koeman, and the fact he turned down our option to buy the following season shows that it can't have been that much pulling power.

Edited 16 June, 2021 by TWar

[egg]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

The point I'm making is that there is no evidence he signed for Koeman, and the fact he turned down our option to buy the following season shows that it can't have been that much pulling power.

What's the point of this mate? It was years ago. You disagree with other people. Let it go.