SKD Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 This may open a can of worms and I’m not for one minute condoning what they done, however; I note police are involved in those 3 moron skates. Have they actually committed a crime? Is using hateful / racist language in a private forum (from what I could see that was a chat between mates) actually illegal? Not trying to be sarcy or funny and they deserve the book thrown at them by the club, this is a genuine question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKD Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, OttawaSaint said: How do you know what their motivation was? Just because they didn’t write anything inherently racist doesn’t mean that the vandalism wasn’t racially motivated. If say an Indian family’s store had a brick thrown through the window, the attack could be said to be racially motivated even though there wasn’t anything written on the store in graffiti. Perhaps witnesses heard the vandals using racist language while writing on the Rashford mural. Perhaps the police have more information than they are reporting. In any case, pedantry about what constitutes racist and what doesn’t only detracts from an issue that needs to be addressed so that kids growing up see that it is wrong and that calling out and denouncing racism is appropriate. People aren’t born racist, they learn it from others. So, essentially if what you’re saying is correct, but You slagging off Redmond every. Single. Game. You’re a racist scumbag. Got ya. Edited 15 July, 2021 by SKD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttawaSaint Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 3 minutes ago, SKD said: So, essentially if what you’re saying is correct, but You slagging off Redmond every. Single. Game. You’re a racist scumbag. Got ya. Eh? You can criticize someone without there being a racial motive. What I was saying was that posting that the words weren’t racist doesn’t mean there wasn’t a racial motivation that the police know about. I didn’t say that the mural thing was racist just that we don’t have the full story. What I was getting at was that all this debate about the mural and not being able to see the tweets detracts from educating people about racism and racist behaviour. I haven’t seen the reports about the mural. To me it’s not relevant. If people want to use it to gather and raise awareness about how to stamp out racism then that’s fine, even if the words weren’t inherently racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 13 minutes ago, SKD said: This may open a can of worms and I’m not for one minute condoning what they done, however; I note police are involved in those 3 moron skates. Have they actually committed a crime? Is using hateful / racist language in a private forum (from what I could see that was a chat between mates) actually illegal? Not trying to be sarcy or funny and they deserve the book thrown at them by the club, this is a genuine question. As I understand, it was a group chat. The police are probably investigating whether an offence has been committed against any of the recipients of those messages. Doesn’t mean they’ll find there was, of course, but someone leaked those messages and I doubt it was any of those three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttawaSaint Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 Also: The aim of an argument, or of a discussion, should not be victory, but progress. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 9 minutes ago, OttawaSaint said: Also: The aim of an argument, or of a discussion, should not be victory, but progress. Yep, this, absolutely 100%. No wait, hang on, don't they put forward arguments in court with the express intention of "winning"... ( [/sarcasm] for whelk's benefit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 An update this evening straight from the force’s mouth, https://www.gmp.police.uk/news/greater-manchester/news/news/2021/july/south-manchester-mural-vandalism-investigation-continues/ “While the content of the vandalism is not believed to be of a racial nature, officers are keeping an open mind as to the motive behind defacing the artwork.” So. No nearer identifying the culprits. It’s always possible it was some young kid or group of kids. We don’t even know what colour they/he/she/it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle04 Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 I think the post regarding what the police define as a hate crime is pretty bloody disturbing. ....Evidence of the hate element is not a requirement. You do not need to personally perceive the incident to be hate related. It would be enough if another person, a witness or even a police officer thought that the incident was hate related. So this is now what constitutes law in this country, some random persons subjective opinion of an "incident". No evidence of hate to be charged with hate. Huh? Little wonder this country is drifting towards mass paranoia, hysteria and collective mental illness on this subject. Regarding mural-gate, the saga continues, was it racially motivated, maybe we'll never know. It's reassuring however that the police have the resources to thoroughly investigate the serious crime of graffiti, I'm sure it will cascade down to other areas in the country... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, OttawaSaint said: Do these same people demand to see dead bodies after a murder? I mean, how do we know someone was murdered? A jury convict someone. Edited 15 July, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 (edited) Do anyone else notice there were no people of colour in Italy’s squad? Can’t say I did, but it’s apparently a victory for the far right along with being the most striking thing about it. Edited 15 July, 2021 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalCommunist Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 “While the content of the vandalism is not believed to be of a racial nature, officers are keeping an open mind as to the motive behind defacing the artwork.” Wait, it doesn't appear to be racially motivated, well that does not fit the agenda, quick make it appear racially motivated¬!!! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 4 hours ago, OttawaSaint said: Eh? You can criticize someone without there being a racial motive. What I was saying was that posting that the words weren’t racist doesn’t mean there wasn’t a racial motivation that the police know about. I didn’t say that the mural thing was racist just that we don’t have the full story. What I was getting at was that all this debate about the mural and not being able to see the tweets detracts from educating people about racism and racist behaviour. I haven’t seen the reports about the mural. To me it’s not relevant. If people want to use it to gather and raise awareness about how to stamp out racism then that’s fine, even if the words weren’t inherently racist. Sounds like that was bollocks then. Police don't believe it to be of a racial nature. The media have deliberately obfuscated things to push an agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, OttawaSaint said: Spot on but all we have here are a bunch of white guys saying, “I haven’t heard/seen any racism so it either doesn’t or isn’t a big deal”. Do these same people demand to see dead bodies after a murder? I mean, how do we know someone was murdered? Why do people continually say that anyone has said that "racism doesn't exist or that it's not a big deal?" I see people suggesting that continually on here but I haven't seen anyone say anything even close to that. It's a total straw man argument. Edited 15 July, 2021 by hypochondriac 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 6 hours ago, Jimmy_D said: See my post on the previous page for a fuller answer, but yes, I don’t see it creating division that wasn’t already there, but instead dragging it out to where it can be confronted. I think that's nonsense. There's loads more tension and division as a result of some of this racial consciousness and critical race theory stuff. There's a fair few polls that back that up too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 5 hours ago, OttawaSaint said: 5 hours ago, OttawaSaint said: So no one then? So are you more worried about being accused of being a racist or racism itself? Isn't it not possible to be worried about both? Being accused of being a racist is one of the worst things you can possibly be accused of. I'd suggest that on a personal level you'd be much more likely to be worried about a slur of that nature rather than some idiots sending Rashford some monkey emojis on twitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Corbyn Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 2 hours ago, Turkish said: Do anyone else notice there were no people of colour in Italy’s squad? Can’t say I did, but it’s apparently a victory for the far right along with being the most striking thing about it. You guys consider it a victory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 Just now, Jeremy Corbyn said: You guys consider it a victory? Excuse me, what do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Corbyn Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 5 hours ago, SKD said: This may open a can of worms and I’m not for one minute condoning what they done, however; I note police are involved in those 3 moron skates. Have they actually committed a crime? Is using hateful / racist language in a private forum (from what I could see that was a chat between mates) actually illegal? Not trying to be sarcy or funny and they deserve the book thrown at them by the club, this is a genuine question. I suspect it wont breach "criminal law,", which I assume is what you're referring to? It definitely breaches employment law as its stone wall gross misconduct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Corbyn Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Turkish said: Excuse me, what do you mean? Do you guys consider it a victory? Edited 15 July, 2021 by Jeremy Corbyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said: I suspect it wont breach "criminal law,", which I assume is what you're referring to? It definitely breaches employment law as its stone wall gross misconduct. He was referring to the fact that the police were involved. I suspect he would agree that the clubs would be right to sanction or dismiss them if it is true. Edited 15 July, 2021 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 9 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said: Do you guys consider it a victory? What do you mean by “you guys”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Corbyn Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 1 minute ago, Turkish said: What do you mean by “you guys”? I thought you were "far right"? Or did I misinterpret your posts on here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 3 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said: I thought you were "far right"? Or did I misinterpret your posts on here? It appears you have. Including the one where I said I didn’t even notice that the Italy team didn’t contain any people of colour. Sorry to disappoint you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 Just now, Jeremy Corbyn said: I thought you were "far right"? Or did I misinterpret your posts on here? Got to laugh at the choice of user name here, good option for a football message board. By the way in response to Turkish post, I agree with the Economist, first thing I thought of watching Italy lift the trophy is where are all the people of colour Teams should be forced to have a quota to represent diversity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Corbyn Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 2 minutes ago, JRM said: Got to laugh at the choice of user name here, good option for a football message board. By the way in response to Turkish post, I agree with the Economist, first thing I thought of watching Italy lift the trophy is where are all the people of colour Teams should be forced to have a quota to represent diversity. Is it a bad choice for a name on a football messaging board? The rest of your post is the dribblings of a moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 47 minutes ago, hypochondriac said: I think that's nonsense. There's loads more tension and division as a result of some of this racial consciousness and critical race theory stuff. There's a fair few polls that back that up too. People being more aware of the problem now doesn’t mean the problem wasn’t there before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Corbyn Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 4 minutes ago, Turkish said: It appears you have. Including the one where I said I didn’t even notice that the Italy team didn’t contain any people of colour. Sorry to disappoint you My mistake, your posts about LGBT issues and racism are probably tongue in cheek eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 Just now, Jeremy Corbyn said: My mistake, your posts about LGBT issues and racism are probably tongue in cheek eh. Well done for admitting you made a mistake, we’ve all done it others on here are less humble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said: Is it a bad choice for a name on a football messaging board? The rest of your post is the dribblings of a moron. 1) it is the choice of someone apparently more interested in political squabbles 2) dribbling of a moron eh? Just using same logic as Jon Snow when he got upset at seeing so many white people in one place. Not what progressives like me want to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 1 minute ago, Jimmy_D said: People being more aware of the problem now doesn’t mean the problem wasn’t there before. It's not awareness of a problem that's the issue and that's not what's causing the division. Focusing on skin colour as a great divider, defining people by the colour of their skin as their primary characteristic and ascribing opinions to individuals and making assumptions about them based on their race is what has caused division and made racial relations a lot worse. Many people of all races agree with this and polls back it up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 (edited) Only a total moron would go out of their way to bang on about the shades of skin of the players in a national football team. Players are there because of their ability and how white or otherwise they are should have zero bearing on it. Certain people have been harping on about it over the entire tournament just as they did during the world Cup. It's so boring and divisive to separate teams in that fashion. Same goes for idiots on the right who were suggesting that there was some conspiracy from Southgate by picking black players to score and potentially win the shootout for England. Its all pathetic. Edited 15 July, 2021 by hypochondriac 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 https://unherd.com/2020/12/whos-behind-marcus-rashford/ Quite an interesting insight into how these agencies are using social justice campaigns to increase player profiles and PR image / influence, from a cynical perspective it's worked very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said: It's not awareness of a problem that's the issue and that's not what's causing the division. Focusing on skin colour as a great divider, defining people by the colour of their skin as their primary characteristic and ascribing opinions to individuals and making assumptions about them based on their race is what has caused division and made racial relations a lot worse. Many people of all races agree with this and polls back it up. Have any sources for these ‘many people’? What is the division being created, as you see it? What should the response to racist abuse be, as you see it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said: Only a total moron would go out of their way to bang on about the shades of skin of the players in a national football team. Players are there because of their ability and how white or otherwise they are should have zero bearing on it. Certain people have been harping on about it over the entire tournament just as they did during the world Cup. It's so boring and divisive to separate teams in that fashion. Same goes for idiots on the right who were suggesting that there was some conspiracy from Southgate by picking black players to score and potentially win the shootout for England. Its all pathetic. Is there any better meritocracy than football? The ultimate results based business, if you looked like a Martian with two heads but could score goals you'd be in, no one cares what you look like it's your ability that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 20 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said: Have any sources for these ‘many people’? What is the division being created, as you see it? What should the response to racist abuse be, as you see it? The division is what I've already outlined in my previous post. Racist abuse should be harshly dealt with as it is already. If people can be identified then they will be and will suffer serious consequences. It simply isn't socially acceptable to be racially abusive to anyone in the UK and the vast vast majority of people consider it to be completely wrong and most studies into it show that Britain is the most tolerant it has ever been and getting even more tolerant all the time which is fantastic news. I think that focusing on what we have in common and what united us will help hugely. Over the past few years we've sadly imported an insidious type of culture over from America that seeks to divide people along racial lines, seeks to tell others what is an acceptable way to think based on skin colour or sex (look how people are denounced as not really black or not really female based on their opinions) and a horrible type of victim mentality that tells people they are either perpetual victims or irredeemably evil based on their skin colour (see the Robin deangelo best sellers for more of that type of thing.) The last thing I want is for these racial divisions perpetuated and sustained by this sort of thinking to continue because it will only make things worse, resentment will grow on both sides and it will lead to a more racist and intolerant society. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 I’m seeing in some press no idea how reliable that of the 54 abusive posts only 5 came from accounts traceable bAck to the UK. Doesn’t really suit the narrative so don’t expect to see it in the mainstream media Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttawaSaint Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Turkish said: I’m seeing in some press no idea how reliable that of the 54 abusive posts only 5 came from accounts traceable bAck to the UK. Doesn’t really suit the narrative so don’t expect to see it in the mainstream media Say it is all a narrative. What is so bad about tackling racism head on, educating children about how to spot racism and why it is wrong and creating a better more harmonious and inclusive country (my country too). Why is that upsetting to you? It’s like the environmental change cartoon joke where someone asks, “what if it’s a hoax, what if we end up making a better world for nothing?”. Edited 15 July, 2021 by OttawaSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, OttawaSaint said: Say it is all a narrative. What is so bad about tackling racism head on, educating children about how to spot racism and why it is wrong and creating a better more harmonious and inclusive country (my country too). Why is that upsetting to you? It’s like the environmental change cartoon joke where someone asks, “what if it’s a hoax, what if we end up making a better world for nothing?”. Because its a hugely disproportionate response. A miniscule minority post horrible abuse on twitter and there's calls to change the entirety of the Internet on an international level and to end social media, for GCHQ to get involved etc etc. It's also unhelpful to the issue to not be honest about the extent of the problem on social media. It's rather like how twitter blows up certain issues in the uk and it looks like these are giant issues and driving the political agenda, only for elections to come around and remind us that the reality is that twitter is not real life and the majority of people in the country do not give a toss about what social media thinks about certain things. There's nothing wrong with the things you outlined above but those aren't the things that people are objecting to. Edited 15 July, 2021 by hypochondriac 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Ralph Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 The abuse the players received is clearly unacceptable but the media has lost sight of explaining the facts to ensure proportionate consideration in order to maximise their headlines. It gives the impression that vast swathes of the country and football fans are racist - they are definitely not. Also if everyone is so worried about abuse on social media where is the support for Priti Patel following the abuse she has suffered. I can’t imagine why the vocal media types aren’t coming out in support of her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 15 July, 2021 Share Posted 15 July, 2021 1 minute ago, Sir Ralph said: The abuse the players received is clearly unacceptable but the media has lost sight of explaining the facts to ensure proportionate consideration in order to maximise their headlines. It gives the impression that vast swathes of the country and football fans are racist - they are definitely not. Also if everyone is so worried about abuse on social media where is the support for Priti Patel following the abuse she has suffered. I can’t imagine why the vocal media types aren’t coming out in support of her. Well done sir you put it much better than me. You are entirely correct. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 16 July, 2021 Share Posted 16 July, 2021 1 hour ago, Turkish said: I’m seeing in some press no idea how reliable that of the 54 abusive posts only 5 came from accounts traceable bAck to the UK. Doesn’t really suit the narrative so don’t expect to see it in the mainstream media Have you got a link to one of the articles saying this, or just that there has been 54 posts, as I haven't found anything at all that states how much there actually was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKD Posted 16 July, 2021 Share Posted 16 July, 2021 7 hours ago, Jeremy Corbyn said: I suspect it wont breach "criminal law,", which I assume is what you're referring to? It definitely breaches employment law as its stone wall gross misconduct. Pretty much as I expected. As I said, deserve the book thrown at them by the club. Young lads though, so hopefully they’re educated, apologise and it hasn’t thrown a career away for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKD Posted 16 July, 2021 Share Posted 16 July, 2021 5 hours ago, Turkish said: I’m seeing in some press no idea how reliable that of the 54 abusive posts only 5 came from accounts traceable bAck to the UK. Doesn’t really suit the narrative so don’t expect to see it in the mainstream media Yep; these Russian / Chinese bots have done an absolute number on everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 16 July, 2021 Share Posted 16 July, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Saint_clark said: Have you got a link to one of the articles saying this, or just that there has been 54 posts, as I haven't found anything at all that states how much there actually was. https://www.rte.ie/sport/euro-2020/2021/0715/1235269-four-arrested-in-connection-with-online-racist-abuse/ Quote Five arrested in connection with online racist abuse of England players Looks like one of the arrested is claiming his account was hacked. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-57829067 Quote Media reports said the offensive tweet appeared on the account of a youth football coach, who claimed his Twitter account was hacked. The suspect has since been released under investigation. Edited 16 July, 2021 by Weston Super Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Kent Saint Posted 16 July, 2021 Share Posted 16 July, 2021 Who knows if any of the people posting the abuse are football fans , could it be a far right campaign taking advantage ? The promotion of division is an official Govt policy under Boris's culture war agenda so it should be no surprise . The anti racism campaign is about alot more than stopping abuse on social media , more about equal opportunities . Climate change is a much bigger threat to our way of life than culture wars/social media abuse it is a major cause of migration , extreme weather events , drought lasting for years in some countries . MPs of all parties seem to have been abused on line for a few years now so they should have taken action by now . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 16 July, 2021 Share Posted 16 July, 2021 Just seen this on The Upshot email which is worth signing up for if you like random sporting nonsense you don't always see elsewhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooney Posted 16 July, 2021 Share Posted 16 July, 2021 The new baby beaver born recently at Holnicote Estate has been named Rashford following public vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 July, 2021 Share Posted 16 July, 2021 2 minutes ago, rooney said: The new baby beaver born recently at Holnicote Estate has been named Rashford following public vote. Great news! The war against racism is over! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 16 July, 2021 Share Posted 16 July, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Saint_clark said: Have you got a link to one of the articles saying this, or just that there has been 54 posts, as I haven't found anything at all that states how much there actually was. An article on the guardian said 143 I think but they included "criticism of taking the knee" in that. Edited 16 July, 2021 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalCommunist Posted 16 July, 2021 Share Posted 16 July, 2021 Now if we can get some decent anti bodies from the Beaver and end covid, we can go back to worrying about global warming........... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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