The Euro2020 Thread

[igsey]

34 minutes ago, egg said:

Good post. I was convinced that he'd find a place for Henderson from the start. Midfield is crucial and they dominated there. Mount was going awol and was often our furthest forward player, but that may have been the plan or he may have taken it on himself as Kane didn't make many runs. That said, who'd have picked out any runs, most of Phillips and Rice passes picked out our defenders. 

Glad he didn't, Henderson was absolutely awful when he was on. Should have been below Bellingham in the pecking order; or ideally, not in the squad. 

[tajjuk]

Game management and experience won it for them, they were second best for most of the first half, changed some things, controlled the ball from there and got their equaliser.  Kane faded at the same time whereas at times he was unplayable in the first half, second half he was barely doing much and he'd been a crucial factor in our build up.

Plus we had no legs to bring on in midfield, Rice ran himself into the ground and we only had completely unfit Henderson to bring on who looked even worse and just handed control to Italy. 

Plus Sterling unfortunately had his worst game of the tournament, and whenever we did threaten to do something Italy were clever enough to break the attack up with tactical fouls. 

Penalties are penalties, anything can happen there, as we saw with France world class players can miss them and average centre-backs can smash them in the top corner. I do wonder though whether the delayed step penalty is now getting found out a little, Jorginho had his saved, Rashford missed, Sake saved all with the same technique, whereas Kane, Bonucci and Maguire picked a spot, smashed it in and the keepers had no chance. 

I think this team will get better to be honest though and grow from this, some overly critical comments in here IMO, we have some very good players and really it took a lucky bounce of the ball from a corner for Italy to win it, when they had a much more experienced team. Aside from that what saves did Pickford really have to make, we neutered Immobile so much they took him off early, a guy who has scored like 150 goals in last 200. Insigne also barely threatened and Barela, who had been very impressive in previous games also was barely noticeable and got subbed. 

[the colonel]

8 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s hard to know where to start with this pony. 
 

Italy were the better side, they’ve been the best side in the tournament. We’ve been the second best, no shame in that. 
 

We will be a threat at the next World Cup, because we’ve got good yo7ng players. Nobody has said it’s a “warm up”, that’s just a straw man planks like you line up. 
 

Kane is a class act, a really good player. 

lol  lol

[jawillwill]

Its a shame Southgate will still be manager at the world cup. He's done OK the last couple of tournaments but they got as far as they got in spite of him, rather than because of him. He clearly started to believe his own hype with the most baffling use of substitutes I have ever seen.

 

[Sunglasses Ron]

17 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

centre-backs can smash them in the top corner.

You have to hand it to Maguire, that was an outrageous penalty. Love how he took the camera out!

[Charlie Wayman]

Look on the bright side. At least the media can slump back in their armchairs and nurse another 55 years of hurt. 

[CB Fry]

10 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Look on the bright side. At least the media can slump back in their armchairs and nurse another 55 years of hurt. 

What does this even mean?

[Sarnia Cherie]

1 hour ago, John B said:

You may well think my post is stupid but the three who missed the penalties are top class performers they may well be young but they showed in training that they had the ability to score penalties

But on the day they did not due to a combination of circumstances including the fact that the goalkeeper was imposing and has a good record of saving penalties and the fact that the team who takes the penalties usually wins

 

If Grealish or Sterling had shown that they were more likely to score in training they would have taken them last night

 

Southgate chose the ones he wanted to take them not on a whim but on evidence 

 

It is not as though the experienced Italian players scored all five they had two misses 

So why do you mention money in your original post? What difference should that make? Should Pickford always keep a clean sheet because he earns thousands a week?

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, The Curse of St Mary's said:

Midfield is the big area of weakness. Phillips and Rice run around alot but they dont have the positive ball playing attributes we need. Mount is incredibly overrated. Hes southgate's blue eyed boy because of his off the ball work rate which typifies southgate's tactics. His set pieces are woeful and offers little creativity.

Yep, exactlyy, it was my fear after the Denmark game - as I thought for the majority of that game Hoj and Delaney had our number.

Rice and Phillips are almost identical types of player. We need someone else in there alongside them to drive, because based on that showing we are light years behind the top teams in that central midfield department. It was our undoing against Croatia in 2018 as well.

JWP isn't the answer either by the way! He'd have been equally over run in there. If only we had a Jorginiho or Verrati type who have the ability to run a game. We don't have anyone who can do that. Not sure Bellingham will be that sort of player, not seen enough of him. But central midfield worries me as I don't see much there long-term.

[beatlesaint]

I'm afraid I'm agreeing with Roy Keane. To have a lad of 19 step up to take the fifth penalty while more senior players, yes Sterling more so than Grealish and Stones, sat back and let him do it was poor. I hope it doesn't affect him but I'm not sure it was good management to have the takers, if he had to take one, in that order either, the pressure increases with every penalty taken in that situation.  

[CB Fry]

Being that the absolute best Sako could have done was get us into a situation that we would have had to take another penalty, whoever was down as number 6 (Sterling, surely?) should have stepped in. Oh well, it's done now, but I am amazed that the thing Southgate really, really screwed up was the penalties. Of all the things.

Edited 12 July, 2021 by CB Fry

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, CB Fry said:

Being that the absolute best Sako could have done was get us into a situation that we would have had to take another penalty, whoever was down as number 6 (Sterling, surely?) should have stepped in. Oh well, it's done now, but I am amazed that the thing Southgate really, really screwed up was the penalties. Of all the things.

Yep. Losing the toss to take the first penalty was unfortunate. Not changing the list of takers in the light of the developing situation was a huge mistake. Neither of the late substitutes looked confident but when Rashford stepped up the balance was in our favour. He was looking at the goalkeeper and not the ball when he kicked it.

[S-Clarke]

Forgetting about the England game for a moment, what a great tournament overall.

Lots of goals, lots of great games, come backs, extra time wins etc. It's been my favourite Euro's since 2004 for the sheer drama and attacking quality on show.

Best team were easily Italy, but I also thought Denmark were a breath of fresh air - ignoring the first two games.

The only thing I didn't really like was the pan Europe approach, I prefer a Euro's when it's in a single country. Glad it's going back to that model for 2024.

But overall it's been a fantastic month of football after a year of rubbish.

Edited 12 July, 2021 by S-Clarke

[Whitey Grandad]

6 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Forgetting about the England game for a moment, what a great tournament overall.

Lots of goals, lots of great games, come backs, extra time wins etc. It's been my favourite Euro's since 2004 for the sheer drama and attacking quality on show.

Best team were easily Italy, but I also thought Denmark were a breath of fresh air - ignoring the first two games.

The only thing I didn't really like was the pan Europe approach, I prefer a Euro's when it's in a single country. Glad it's going back to that model for 2024.

But overall it's been a fantastic month of football after a year of rubbish.

Agreed.

Best game of the tournament?

And the worst?

[beatlesaint]

11 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Agreed.

Best game of the tournament?

And the worst?

Netherlands v Ukraine was pretty bloody good as was the Italy v Spain semi final.

[Lighthouse]

NL - Ukraine

Spain - Croatia

Switzerland - France

Germany - Portugal

Italy - Spain

All very good games IMO, hard to pick a favourite. Obviously England - Scotland was pretty bad and none of the games involving Sweden were great.

[S-Clarke]

23 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Agreed.

Best game of the tournament?

And the worst?

Best game could be between two - that amazing afternoon where there were two 3-3's in normal time (Spain v Croatia, France v Switzerland)

I'll go France v Switzerland, as that also saw the game of the tournament from Pogba.

Can only comment on the one's I watched, but England v Scotland was pretty bad. England v Czech was equally poor in entertainment alone.

[Saint86]

11 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Fuck me, they’re coming out of the woodwork tonight. 
 

You posted before the tournament started  that you were supporting Scotland, now you’re moaning about England losing in the final. 
 

Plank 

Nice mature response their Ducky - sadly you've not convinced me to change my mind. No amount of consternation changes that he's a terrible manager tactically - and I was Southgate out before the tournament and at the last world cup. We've got a great generation of players here, we shouldn't be wasting it with Southgate imo. He's a nice guy, but not good enough. And I honestly think anyone who thinks England have a chance of winning a tournament under Southgate is kidding themselves as it stands - and that won't change barring an actual tactical renaissance taking place in his brain.

This run was a parallel of the world cup - easy group, worst German side in 30years, Ukraine, Denmark... then once again, the first decent side we've played and we sat deep, stood off them, let them play, and then act surprised when they scored. Their best attacking players are Insigne, Chiesa, Jorginhio - England have level of quality sat on the bench. Yet our subs were poor and came too late, and he just ignored the very obvious pattern of play and pressure we were under, that or had no idea how to change it. The reality is that with our squad and attacking players, that we should be the team attacking the others and causing them problems. Press Jorginho to stife the forward passes, push up and stop them playing, get at their aged back line etc... Not playing with 11 players in our 3rd of the pitch.

People might say he's not lost a game etc, but the point is that Southgate goes out to not lose, and consequently doesn't win against good teams when it matters. Which basically means his plan for this final was to not lose, hang on for penalties, and then try our hand at basically a 50/50 shoot out (i'd argue our record in penalties is far from 50/50.

Maybe i'm too negative, or its too soon after for some fans. But I can see no hope for england under Southgate.

Edited 12 July, 2021 by Saint86

[Wade Garrett]

Had a bit of time to calm down.

We we’re all over them for 20 minutes, then retreated.

It was a tactical masterclass from Mancini, who schooled Southgate.  

Not fussed about the penalties.  Lottery.  Pickford was good though.

[Victor]

3 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

The laws of the game need changing when Chiellini can do that and still stay on the pitch.

And if Jorginho makes a tackle that in the PL then you can guarantee VAR would intervene and change his card to red.

 

Or, looked at another way, Joginho is favourite for the ball, Grealish makes a desperate and reckless feet-first sliding tackle that could have broken Jorginho's leg, Jorginho has his foot on the ball as Grealish comes sliding in knocking Jorginho's foot off the ball and on to his thigh, Yellow/red for Grealish for dangerous play.

[Saint86]

10 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

Still can't quite believe how appallingly that game was managed. They weren't even subtle issues - we were overrun and didn't try to do anything about it. And yet now we'll be stuck with Southgate for most of these players' careers, all because of two lucky knockout draws in consecutive tournaments.

An Italy team whose only superstars are both the wrong side of 35 - that was the chance.

Exactly this. He's achieved basically the bare minimum given how both tournaments unfolded and he simply isn't good enough to win a tournament - so all we're doing is wasting another generation of players and introducing another period of knockout football psychological scarring - it only took 15 or so years to get over the 96/98 disappointments.

The FA's stated aim is to win Qatar in 2022 🤣

[Chapel End]

11 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Nice mature response their Ducky - sadly you've not convinced me to change my mind. No amount of consternation changes that he's a terrible manager tactically - and I was Southgate out before the tournament and at the last world cup. We've got a great generation of players here, we shouldn't be wasting it with Southgate imo. He's a nice guy, but not good enough. And I honestly think anyone who thinks England have a chance of winning a tournament under Southgate is kidding themselves as it stands - and that won't change barring an actual tactical renaissance taking place in his brain.

This run was a parallel of the world cup - easy group, worst German side in 30years, Ukraine, Denmark... then once again, the first decent side we've played and we sat deep, stood off them, let them play, and then act surprised when they scored. Their best attacking players are Insigne, Chiesa, Jorginhio - England have level of quality sat on the bench. Yet our subs were poor and came too late, and he just ignored the very obvious pattern of play and pressure we were under, that or had no idea how to change it. The reality is that with our squad and attacking players, that we should be the team attacking the others and causing them problems. Press Jorginho to stife the forward passes, push up and stop them playing, get at their aged back line etc... Not playing with 11 players in our 3rd of the pitch.

People might say he's not lost a game etc, but the point is that Southgate goes out to not lose, and consequently doesn't win. Which basically means his plan for this final was to not lose, hang on for penalties, and then try our hand at basically a 50/50 shoot out (i'd argue our record in penalties is far from 50/50.

Maybe i'm too negative, or its too soon after for some fans. But I can see no hope for england under Southgate.

It was a shame we didn't manage to pull it off, however, your post is quite correct 

We do have some great attacking talent but it was only used sparingly 

[waylander]

It is interesting to go back to page 1 of this thread and look at the predictions/expectations. England over-achieved.

Edited 12 July, 2021 by waylander

[sadoldgit]

Ever the pragmatist, Southgate sets his teams up not to lose and he does that very well, but one shot on target (in the 2nd minute) in 120 minutes speak volumes about his tactics. Kane is a world class striker and Sterling was having a great tournament up to last night. We have a wealth of attacking talent sitting on the bench yet we don’t set up to use it. I bet every one of us was scanning the touch line on 60 minutes looking to see how he was going to change things. No Grealish until half way through the first period of extra time? Can he only play 20 minutes? If you want to win things there are times when you have to be bold. I wonder if Southgate has that in his locker? 
Pickford had an excellent tournament. Luke Shaw has become the player we always knew he could be. Maguire was excellent after his injury lay off. Walker has unbelievable pace. Rice had his best game last night, especially when he started to burst forward. Phillips put in another great shift, covers every blade of grass and is always there for a pass. Mount should have come off earlier. Why Grealish doesn’t start God only knows. Stones was solid. Henderson wasn’t the answer to anyone’s question other can you head a ball from a corner. At this stage I would love to talk about the likes of Foden, Bellingham, Rashford, Grealish and Sancho but we have barely seen them. 
Note to Gareth. Don’t take 4 right backs to the WC. Build strategies to win matches rather than not to lose them. Mason Mount should not be the first name on the team sheet.

As for the people who racially abused Rashford, Sancho and Saka on social media, f**k right off you moronic bastards.

[S-Clarke]

8 minutes ago, Chapel End said:

It was a shame we didn't manage to pull it off, however, your post is quite correct 

We do have some great attacking talent but it was only used sparingly 

I get that view, in the sense of play to your strengths etc. But we just don't have enough in other areas to do that, as I just feel we'd be picked off too easily against top teams.

If we could control the game then we could unleash the likes of Foden, Grealish etc, but we'd struggle to get the ball to them against the better sides in all honesty. In that sense I get Southgate's approach, it's pragmatic because he knows we are lacking in other areas.

[LiberalCommunist]

So pleased we got to a final. That was always a hurdle we needed to over-come even if we don't win it. But, what a massive wasted opportunity. 

We absolutely nullified them in the first 45, and if Gareth had just reacted to the first ten minutes of the second half we could have tweeked that formation and kept the pressure up. But he choose to be reactive after going a goal down, and then doubt set in. We had some major tools at our disposal which would have taken the pressure off, but we didn't utilise them. As the Italians grew into the game, we shied away. 

I said before the game that the only thing England needed to fear was fear itself, and thanks to Southgate the prophecy was outed. 

So well done for getting to a final, you can dine out on that for years to come, but we'll never have a better chance of winning the euro's than this missed opportunity. 

[Turkish]

27 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Nice mature response their Ducky - sadly you've not convinced me to change my mind. No amount of consternation changes that he's a terrible manager tactically - and I was Southgate out before the tournament and at the last world cup. We've got a great generation of players here, we shouldn't be wasting it with Southgate imo. He's a nice guy, but not good enough. And I honestly think anyone who thinks England have a chance of winning a tournament under Southgate is kidding themselves as it stands - and that won't change barring an actual tactical renaissance taking place in his brain.

This run was a parallel of the world cup - easy group, worst German side in 30years, Ukraine, Denmark... then once again, the first decent side we've played and we sat deep, stood off them, let them play, and then act surprised when they scored. Their best attacking players are Insigne, Chiesa, Jorginhio - England have level of quality sat on the bench. Yet our subs were poor and came too late, and he just ignored the very obvious pattern of play and pressure we were under, that or had no idea how to change it. The reality is that with our squad and attacking players, that we should be the team attacking the others and causing them problems. Press Jorginho to stife the forward passes, push up and stop them playing, get at their aged back line etc... Not playing with 11 players in our 3rd of the pitch.

People might say he's not lost a game etc, but the point is that Southgate goes out to not lose, and consequently doesn't win. Which basically means his plan for this final was to not lose, hang on for penalties, and then try our hand at basically a 50/50 shoot out (i'd argue our record in penalties is far from 50/50.

Maybe i'm too negative, or its too soon after for some fans. But I can see no hope for england under Southgate.

What rubbish. He won 5 games and drew 2. Not bad for someone who "consequently doesnt win"

He's taken England to a world cup semi final and a Euro Final for the first time ever, better tournament record than every manager since Ramsey yet you're claiming there is no hope for England, what exactly do you expect? 

I do get the point about being too late with the subs, but just because you've got attacking players on the bench you cant just keep on throwing them on one after the other. 

Overall he's had a great tournament, England achieved more than many of us thought they would, yet all some people want to do is moan.

[trousers]

25 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

he simply isn't good enough to win a tournament

How can someone who came within 30 minutes of winning a tournament be categorised as not being good enough to win a tournament? Surely someone that gets that close is good enough? 

[Whitey Grandad]

Italy had made five substitutions in 96 minutes. We had made two, Henderson and Sako, and from what I saw they disrupted what little rhythm and purpose we had at the time.

Kane never got a single touch in their penalty area.

As others have said, Southgate sets us up to keep things tight. Scoring goals is a bonus if they happen.

[Whitey Grandad]

Just now, trousers said:

How can someone who came within 30 minutes of winning a tournament be categorised as not being good enough to win a tournament? Surely someone that gets that close is good enough? 

He failed at the last hurdle. Probably because he was up against a much better team than any he had faced earlier.

[Saint86]

4 minutes ago, trousers said:

How can someone who came within 30 minutes of winning a tournament be categorised as not being good enough to win a tournament? Surely someone that gets that close is good enough? 

Because failing to win is "good enough" to win 😅 That's some salient logic you've got their Trousers. 35% possession and 6 shots to 19 - whilst managing the better squad.

Edited 12 July, 2021 by Saint86

[Victor]

5 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Because failing to win is "good enough" to win 😅 That's some salient logic you've got their Trousers. 35% possession and 6 shots to 19 - whilst managing the better squad.

Turns out it wasn't a better squad. Italy didn't look tired, coped with injuries to key players, and have won 29 of their last 34 internationals and dawn the 5. England better than that?

[CB Fry]

10 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Because failing to win is "good enough" to win 😅 That's some salient logic you've got their Trousers. 35% possession and 6 shots to 19 - whilst managing the better squad.

England didn't have a better squad.

They didn't have a better squad than Belgium or France either.

I don't get this strawman argument.

We've never got to a tournament final for half a century. It was a huge achievement to get that far. Let's not pretend that it was some nailed on thing and then just a case of turning it on in the final.

[sadoldgit]

23 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I get that view, in the sense of play to your strengths etc. But we just don't have enough in other areas to do that, as I just feel we'd be picked off too easily against top teams.

If we could control the game then we could unleash the likes of Foden, Grealish etc, but we'd struggle to get the ball to them against the better sides in all honesty. In that sense I get Southgate's approach, it's pragmatic because he knows we are lacking in other areas.

There’s the rub. I do believe that we have the ability to pick off other teams. We just don’t set our stall to do that. We should let teams worry about what we are going to do to them rather than spend our tactical energy on trying to keep them out. It’s all very well defending in depth, but if we are looking to hit teams on the break we have to get numbers forward. I don’t know what the stats are but how many chances did we create in the tournament? My guess is that we had one of the lowest rates.

[S-Clarke]

15 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Because failing to win is "good enough" to win 😅 That's some salient logic you've got their Trousers. 35% possession and 6 shots to 19 - whilst managing the better squad.

Better squad? You've got some high expectations of some of this squad. People are optimistic about it because it has Sancho, Foden, Grealish, Sterling, Kane etc....but the problem lies in other areas where teams like Italy, France, Spain are just levels above us - still.

We benefited from the way the draw landed, but with our entire squad and weaknesses we did great to get to a final and a semi final last year. Let's not kid ourselves that this English squad is up there with France or Belgium etc, as it's no where near. On that basis to get us within spot kicks of a tournament win is huge. He's managed our shortcomings as well as he could.

[Kingsland Codger]

42 minutes ago, LiberalCommunist said:

We absolutely nullified them in the first 45, and if Gareth had just reacted to the first ten minutes of the second half we could have tweeked that formation and kept the pressure up. But he choose to be reactive after going a goal down, and then doubt set in. We had some major tools at our disposal which would have taken the pressure off, but we didn't utilise them. As the Italians grew into the game, we shied away. 

At what stage in the game were we ever a goal down?

[LiberalCommunist]

Felt like going a goal down after being in total control. But after the equiliser is of course what I meant. 

[Turkish]

19 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

There’s the rub. I do believe that we have the ability to pick off other teams. We just don’t set our stall to do that. We should let teams worry about what we are going to do to them rather than spend our tactical energy on trying to keep them out. It’s all very well defending in depth, but if we are looking to hit teams on the break we have to get numbers forward. I don’t know what the stats are but how many chances did we create in the tournament? My guess is that we had one of the lowest rates.

We were 5th in terms of attempts at goal, 4th highest scorers and most clean sheets. We won 5 out of 7 games and were two kicks away from winning it. You dont half come out with some nonsense.

Edited 12 July, 2021 by Turkish

[kyle04]

Well credit to Italy, their renaissance under Mancinni has been remarkable. I thought 2nd half in particular they bossed the game, but to Englands credit created very few clear opportunties. The trouble was neither did we. We had a brief spell in ET but couldn't get any sort of possession going. The Spanish showed how Italy could be stiffled, but we can't play like Spain who can pass their way out of the Italian press. We failed to get Sterling on the ball enough, and Mount and Saka were anonymous for most of the game.

Having said that, England have over achieved in the last 2 tournaments. I'm sure there are those who believe that we have a right to win just because we invented the game and we have the best(?) domestic league in the world and we won something 55 years ago. Many of the players used regularly (Mount, Rice, Phillips, Saka) are still developing and this experience will benefit them in future tournaments. After all, when most were predicting an exit in R16 or QF stage, to get this close to winning is some achievement.

[aintforever]

Thought Southgate should have changed it when it was obvious we were being over run early in the second half and think the subs for the pens were a mistake but the best team won and probably would have regardless of what Southgate did. No point moaning, England are just not very good at football.

 

 

[WALK DMC]

6 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Better squad? You've got some high expectations of some of this squad. People are optimistic about it because it has Sancho, Foden, Grealish, Sterling, Kane etc....but the problem lies in other areas where teams like Italy, France, Spain are just levels above us - still.

We benefited from the way the draw landed, but with our entire squad and weaknesses we did great to get to a final and a semi final last year. Let's not kid ourselves that this English squad is up there with France or Belgium etc, as it's no where near. On that basis to get us within spot kicks of a tournament win is huge. He's managed our shortcomings as well as he could.

It was a good achievement to get to the final, we shouldn't diminish it. However, I remain in the camp that it was despite Southgate rather than because of it. I agree with your point that we have weaknesses in the squad/team - midfield being the obvious one, but player for player I feel with compare with the likes of Italy and Belgium (although I still think France are a step ahead).

Look at Belgium's defence - are you telling me that the aging  Vertonghen & Alderweirld compare to Maguire & Stones ?  All teams need to adapt - I just feel that people like Roberto Mancini who managed multiple teams to multiple league titles in Italy & England is a far better Manager than Southgate (13th & 19th with Middlesbrough) in using their available resources. 

Ultimately at the last two major tournaments England have beaten Sweden, Czech Republic, Germany & Croatia, demolished Panama and Ukraine, struggled past Denmark & Tunisia (with late/disputed goals) and effectively drawing (ignoring penalties) with Scotland, Columbia and Italy. They've lost to Belgium twice and Croatia in the semi.  

Those aren't bad results - but they are only par for the course. I still believe (nice phrase 🙂 ) that we will never achieve what we are capable of with Southgate in charge. He isn't an awful Manager, but I doubt anyone in the Premiership would employ him based on his achievements in the last 10 years.  I do accept that managing in a league is different to international football, but not to the extent that it is only possible to be good at international level. 

Either way, it is clear that he will lead the team to Qatar, so we need to get behind him and the team and hope that he will adopt a more risk averse approach going forward, otherwise if the draw isn't as favourable as the last two tournaments, it could be a much shorter stay. 

[CB Fry]

13 minutes ago, WALK DMC said:

It was a good achievement to get to the final, we shouldn't diminish it. However, I remain in the camp that it was despite Southgate rather than because of it. I agree with your point that we have weaknesses in the squad/team - midfield being the obvious one, but player for player I feel with compare with the likes of Italy and Belgium (although I still think France are a step ahead).

Look at Belgium's defence - are you telling me that the aging  Vertonghen & Alderweirld compare to Maguire & Stones ?  All teams need to adapt - I just feel that people like Roberto Mancini who managed multiple teams to multiple league titles in Italy & England is a far better Manager than Southgate (13th & 19th with Middlesbrough) in using their available resources. 

Ultimately at the last two major tournaments England have beaten Sweden, Czech Republic, Germany & Croatia, demolished Panama and Ukraine, struggled past Denmark & Tunisia (with late/disputed goals) and effectively drawing (ignoring penalties) with Scotland, Columbia and Italy. They've lost to Belgium twice and Croatia in the semi.  

Those aren't bad results - but they are only par for the course. I still believe (nice phrase 🙂 ) that we will never achieve what we are capable of with Southgate in charge. He isn't an awful Manager, but I doubt anyone in the Premiership would employ him based on his achievements in the last 10 years.  I do accept that managing in a league is different to international football, but not to the extent that it is only possible to be good at international level. 

Either way, it is clear that he will lead the team to Qatar, so we need to get behind him and the team and hope that he will adopt a more risk averse approach going forward, otherwise if the draw isn't as favourable as the last two tournaments, it could be a much shorter stay. 

I reckon we should bring in someone with international high profile calibre to sort this out. Someone like Fabio Capello or Sven Goren Ericsson. Or someone with boatloads of International management experience like Roy Hodgson. Or maybe the most exciting passionate manager of his generation like Kevin Keegan.

Southgate has created the conditions that has got us to a major semi and a major final. None of that lot even got particularly close to it. 

Now dismantle Euro 96 in the same way you have dismantled WC18 and EURO2020 -  just two wins, and one was against crappy old Scotland. Couldn't beat the Swiss. Couldn’t score against a poor Spain team. Didn't make a single substitution (not one) in a 120 minute semi. What a load of shit.

Any tournament can be dismantled and downgraded. I could do Italia 90 too if you like.

The difference is Southgate has done it. Better than any manager for 50 years. Through people management, attention to detail, a bit of ruthlessness, making us hard to beat in a way I have never seen.

I think we should focus on the achievement rather than the failure. 

Next tournament we could be home after the group stage. Which would be our normal level. Thanks for the memories Gareth.

Edited 12 July, 2021 by CB Fry

[Jimmy_D]

People might complain about our tactics, but we’ve just gone through an entire tournament conceding two goals and only lost in the final on penalties. 
One was a bullet of a free kick that probably shouldn’t have been a free kick in the first place, and the other came after an extremely unlucky ricochet off the post.

That’s a bloody incredible platform to have a chance to win games. It’s gutting that it’s the final where it’s just come up short by the tiniest margin, but in my book Southgate has managed us brilliantly. In tournament football, where one loss literally ends it all, being difficult to beat is far more valuable than league football where a draw means dropping two points.

Despite the claims of Italy having all the game, and us not doing anything to them, Italy didn’t really lay a glove on us either. For all their possession it didn’t feel like we were in much danger. Add in the number of fouls Italy had to commit to disrupt us, not to mention they were extremely lucky to keep 11 on the pitch, and in the end it just wasn’t our night. After a game that close it’ll always feel like we could have done something differently and got a different result.

[East Kent Saint]

As I remember Roy , at the last world cup , had England playing out from the back being patient etc but once the WC started he switched to all out attack and we got stuffed . Most teams now play the possession football , Italy/Spain was like a chess game . Yesterday during periods of domination by both sides they both failed to turn it into clear cut chances . I wonder if the prospect of penalties is having a negative effect on teams going for a win ?

The 66 WC final was end to end stuff , there was no rolling around when tackled , the players just got up and carried on ! Having no wingers seemed to mean no one crossing from the behind the defence , most of England's crosses were of the hit and hope type .

[sadoldgit]

29 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Thought Southgate should have changed it when it was obvious we were being over run early in the second half and think the subs for the pens were a mistake but the best team won and probably would have regardless of what Southgate did. No point moaning, England are just not very good at football.

 

 

I quite agree that Southgate didn’t react quickly enough, but we are perfectly good at football, just not particularly adept at dealing with pressurised penalty competitions.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, Saint86 said:

Because failing to win is "good enough" to win 😅 That's some salient logic you've got their Trousers.

So, given Southgate wasn't good enough to win the tournament, how much money did you make on the dead cert Italian win?

[Whitey Grandad]

From the BBC,

Extra-time substitute Jack Grealish - responding to criticism by ITV pundit Roy Keane for not taking a penalty - tweeted: "I said I wanted to take one!

"The gaffer [Southgate] has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight. But I won't have people say that I didn't want to take a peno when I said I will…"

[Wurzel]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Yep. Losing the toss to take the first penalty was unfortunate. Not changing the list of takers in the light of the developing situation was a huge mistake. Neither of the late substitutes looked confident but when Rashford stepped up the balance was in our favour. He was looking at the goalkeeper and not the ball when he kicked it.

Is that allowed?  I've wondered about it in previous shoot outs? We don't get to see a list of takers so wouldn't know if anyone has changed their list mid shoot out before. Is the ref given a list or does he just check that no-one has aready taken one (unless it goes past the 11th). I think if I wa in that situation I'd prefer not to even know what number I was but simply be told I was next (at any stage of the shoot out) and not have time to think about it

Confidence wise letting a 19 year old take the penalty that keeps you in it is a lot different than sending him out thereto take the one that wins it. Or would replacing him have destroyed his confidence even more?

[aintforever]

8 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I quite agree that Southgate didn’t react quickly enough, but we are perfectly good at football, just not particularly adept at dealing with pressurised penalty competitions.

I dunno, 1 solitary cup win achieved with home advantage, 1 final appearance in the last 50 odd years - that's worse than Saints.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

What rubbish. He won 5 games and drew 2. Not bad for someone who "consequently doesnt win"

He's taken England to a world cup semi final and a Euro Final for the first time ever, better tournament record than every manager since Ramsey yet you're claiming there is no hope for England, what exactly do you expect? 

I do get the point about being too late with the subs, but just because you've got attacking players on the bench you cant just keep on throwing them on one after the other. 

Overall he's had a great tournament, England achieved more than many of us thought they would, yet all some people want to do is moan.

Absolutely spot on. From the day he left out  JWP certain poster have been making fools of themselves, and they’re now doubling down.
 

Most normal supporters up and down the country will be extremely proud of the team and think the manager did a really good job. He’s done a better job than Sven did and a far far superior one than national treasure Bobby Robson ever did.