skintsaint Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 27 minutes ago, CB Fry said: The solution is better intensity from the team on the pitch. We did that 5 mins after the restart and had about 3 decent chances, then went back to plodding about. The team has so much potential but GS is holding them back. It was a British style of game, we should have played it like one rather than tippy tappy slow ponderious footie. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said: Good players turn these opportunities into goals That isn't what a 'sitter' is. A 'sitter' in football is an incredibly easy chance. Edited 20 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddeer Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 While the England players are content to play the ball slowly sideways and backwards they will continue to produce these tepid displays. They need to get on the front foot from the first minute and play with a high tempo. Sadly Southgate seems incapable of drilling this into them or perhaps he is instructing them to play this drab cowardly style of football because he is more afraid of losing than attempting to get the team playing an expansive game. We have talented players but they are being let down by a manager who is far too conservative and will not change. If you show no bravery you do not deserve to do well in a tournament and will always underachieve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsland Codger Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 I agree Henderson, Rice, Phillips and others might very well be more accomplished players than JW-P but it's not a matter of picking your best players, it is picking the players for the tactics you want to employ. If you play, say, Grealish, who wins a great deal of free-kicks, then you should also include your player best suited to taking those free-kicks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 (edited) The only Saints player who could have made a difference to that performance is Danny Ings. He’s pulled a lethargic, backward, sideways side out of the mire many times the past 2 seasons. Fuck me our midfield was so one paced, safe and obsessed with passing sideways and backwards, It looked like Prowse was playing. Edited 20 June, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 23 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said: The only Saints player who could have made a difference to that performance is Danny Ings. He’s pulled a lethargic, backward, sideways side out of the mire many times the past 2 seasons. Fuck me our midfield was so one paced, safe and obsessed with passing sideways and backwards, It looked like Prowse was playing. #moist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 42 minutes ago, Kingsland Codger said: I agree Henderson, Rice, Phillips and others might very well be more accomplished players than JW-P but it's not a matter of picking your best players, it is picking the players for the tactics you want to employ. If you play, say, Grealish, who wins a great deal of free-kicks, then you should also include your player best suited to taking those free-kicks. Which two players would we leave out to accommodate Grealish and JWP? I'd have Grealish in over Sterling, but I can't make the case for JWP over Rice or Phillips at this level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapel End Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 Just now, egg said: Which two players would we leave out to accommodate Grealish and JWP? I'd have Grealish in over Sterling, but I can't make the case for JWP over Rice or Phillips at this level. Henderson because be isn't fit and should be home watching his big telly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 6 minutes ago, Chapel End said: Henderson because be isn't fit and should be home watching his big telly I'm talking starting 11 in response to the suggestion of playing Grealish and JWP. Henderson ain't starting so we can't leave him out for JWP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle04 Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 The performance couldn't have been any worse with JWP playing, but we would have had much better set piece delivery, which generally was woeful with Mount the main culprit. Still if GS thinks an unfit player who most likely won't kick a ball was a better selection choice what can you say... With every player match fit JWP dosen't get in, (although the slow negative style employed last game would have suited him), but with players not quite fit he may have been worth a go... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igsey Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 5 minutes ago, egg said: I'm talking starting 11 in response to the suggestion of playing Grealish and JWP. Henderson ain't starting so we can't leave him out for JWP. Not suggesting he should start, but I don't think it takes a footballing genius to watch 60 minutes of us vs. Scotland to figure out that we didn't need both Rice and Phillips in that midfield, particularly when neither of them were pushing on like Phillips was against Croatia. Regardless of if JWP would have done more in that role (arguable either way), he would have made our set pieces much better and can't have done any worse than Phillips was playing. If we have a squad of 26, it makes sense to me to take different options for the different challenges we face, rather than 4 RBs and however many variations of "inside forward in poor form" we ended up taking. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapel End Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 26 minutes ago, egg said: I'm talking starting 11 in response to the suggestion of playing Grealish and JWP. Henderson ain't starting so we can't leave him out for JWP. Fair enough sorry i misunderstood. Do you agree JWP should have gone instead of Henderson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 8 minutes ago, Chapel End said: Fair enough sorry i misunderstood. Do you agree JWP should have gone instead of Henderson? No. Henderson is the better player by a country mile. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, egg said: No. Henderson is the better player by a country mile. Even when unfit? Southgate himself has said that he will only pick players who are fit and playing regularly. Henderson is neither of those things. Edited 20 June, 2021 by sadoldgit Add 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: Even when unfit? Southgate himself has said that he will only pick players who are fit and playing regularly. Henderson is neither of those things. We don't know how fit Henderson is, and (like Maguire) he wouldn't be in the squad if Southgate didn't think he could play a part. The whole discussion goes around in ever decreasing circles though. Some saints fans just won't have it that the players selected are better. That's cool, we all have an opinion. Edited 20 June, 2021 by egg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 43 minutes ago, egg said: We don't know how fit Henderson is, and (like Maguire) he wouldn't be in the squad if Southgate didn't think he could play a part. Being allowed a larger squad this time has given him more scope to take a couple of players who may not be fit until later stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKD Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 1 hour ago, egg said: We don't know how fit Henderson is, and (like Maguire) he wouldn't be in the squad if Southgate didn't think he could play a part. The whole discussion goes around in ever decreasing circles though. Some saints fans just won't have it that the players selected are better. That's cool, we all have an opinion. Yeah it’s weird. Almost as odd as the Scotland love in from the club because of Adams and Armstrong. JWP, free kicks aside, is pretty average and would offer no more than Phillips has in an attacking capacity. Phillips is better defensively and our ropey CB’s means we effectively need to play to holding midfielders. JWP keeps the ball moving but often are easy sidewards and backwards passes. I don’t think he has it in his locker to unpick a defence with a through ball. If we’re looking for more creativity then Bellingham is your man for that. I really don’t see where and how JWP gets into this England side other than injuries. As Duck said, the larger squad means we can gamble on players like Henderson (who massively underrated, a great leader and natural winner), who’ll potentially have a bigger impact in later stages against the better teams. The only player we have who could make a difference and have an impact on this England side this tournament is Ings. He’s closest like for like of Kane we have (just not as good), but just a bit more mobile. I think he’d have worked the channels better and get us up the pitch than Kane did Friday night. I don’t actually think midfield was a huge issue Friday night, for me, the lack of width from full backs not getting forward was a problem and we needed the soark of Grealish a little earlier. Ultimately, it was a game England didn’t need to win and Southgate set up to not lose rather than to win. If Stones header went in it’d have been a different game and probably 3/4-0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapel End Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 3 hours ago, egg said: No. Henderson is the better player by a country mile. When injured???? That is what i meant but you knew that didn’t you, so you think taking and injured player instead of JWP was right.....ok then🙄 Guess you really dont like him? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKD Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 3 minutes ago, Chapel End said: When injured???? That is what i meant but you knew that didn’t you, so you think taking and injured player instead of JWP was right.....ok then🙄 Guess you really dont like him? Saying other players are better (when they actually are) = ‘You really don’t like him’ 😂😂 playground stuff this. As Egg said, Southgate clearly thinks they are fit enough and can do a job later stages. Unless of course always_sfc, sorry chapel end, knows something Southgate doesn’t. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapel End Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 2 hours ago, egg said: We don't know how fit Henderson is, and (like Maguire) he wouldn't be in the squad if Southgate didn't think he could play a part. The whole discussion goes around in ever decreasing circles though. Some saints fans just won't have it that the players selected are better. That's cool, we all have an opinion. Its nothing to do with ability, its about having fit and fully available squad, pretty stupid to have it otherwise irrespective of allegiances to any club. Henderson and Maguire should not have been included and replacements should have gone instead but not necessarily JWP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKD Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 4 minutes ago, Chapel End said: Its nothing to do with ability, its about having fit and fully available squad, pretty stupid to have it otherwise irrespective of allegiances to any club. Henderson and Maguire should not have been included and replacements should have gone instead but not necessarily JWP Even if Maguire and Henderson who are 2 of our best players in their position, can make an impact in the later rounds when we’ll play better teams? Even our 2nd side is good enough to get out of this group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 Why have ITV got 3 Welsh pundits? Unbalanced and seems like Wales are one of the best teams in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 47 minutes ago, Chapel End said: When injured???? That is what i meant but you knew that didn’t you, so you think taking and injured player instead of JWP was right.....ok then🙄 Guess you really dont like him? There it is, the silly comment. I like him, but he's not as good as the other midfielders. It's that simple. Henderson and Maguire were both picked on their way back to fitness. When available, Henderson will add to the team in open play. JWP wouldn't. Pop a pair of these on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Chapel End said: Henderson and Maguire should not have been included and replacements should have gone instead but not necessarily JWP Do you seriously believe they won’t be fit for the whole tournament? Obviously medical staff at the clubs and with the national team think they’ll be fit enough to contribute later on. Edited 20 June, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 You fuckers still talking about JWP. My word! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapel End Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 6 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said: Do you seriously believe they won’t be fit for the whole tournament? Obviously medical staff at the clubs and with the national team think they’ll be fit enough to contribute later on. No idea but the risk should not have been taken IMO Even if they are able, how match fit will they be against the better teams we will have to play? Henderson hasn't played for ages has he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 Are all the Italian team racist for trying to kick off when Wales took the knee, or just the half that didn't reluctantly join in once they realised what was going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapel End Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 1 minute ago, whelk said: You fuckers still talking about JWP. My word! Not me just reiterating that unfit players should not be included, even Southgate said previously he wouldn’t pick them but that turned out to be crap didn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttawaSaint Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 3 minutes ago, whelk said: You fuckers still talking about JWP. My word! We’re lucky here that we have so many contributors that have played at a decent level of football. It’s great to get that insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, Chapel End said: No idea but the risk should not have been taken IMO Without access to their medical records how can you possibly make a judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 1 hour ago, Chapel End said: Its nothing to do with ability, its about having fit and fully available squad, pretty stupid to have it otherwise irrespective of allegiances to any club. Henderson and Maguire should not have been included and replacements should have gone instead but not necessarily JWP Southgate can pick an extra 3 players this year, which means if he feels Maguire and Henderson can add something to the team in the latter stages then it makes sense JWP to me makes more sense as a Henderson replacement, as he isn't as good as Phillips or Rice in the positions they play (He also isn't as good as Mount or Henderson in theirs either). We can judge Southgate on what happens with Henderson later on but considering he has already played half a friendly means he is probably fit enough. This consistent JWP mantra is pointless, yes he takes a good free kick, but outside of that he doesn't have the skillset of the other 3 midfield options... and whilst most years I'd agree, taking half fit players is daft, this year he has 3 extra picks... so its worth a gamble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said: Without access to their medical records how can you possibly make a judgement. When has taken an injured player to a tournament because they're "too good to leave out" ever worked for England? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Saint_clark said: When has taken an injured player to a tournament because they're "too good to leave out" ever worked for England? Not sure... we've never had a larger squad pick before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 As far as the Scotland game was concerned, I'm not sure JWP would have made much of a difference, and tbh, if he'd of taken Phillips or Rice of for JWP, after my initial Saints based hype, I'd be asking why we were still persisting with a double pivot. Friday night looked predominantly to me like two teams that didn't want to lose, rather than trying to win. But that said, Scotland defended very deep, often with serious numbers... we didn't get the ball forward quick enough, and when we did we had no real adventure. He persisted with Sterling, despite having no room to get in behind. If he wanted to go for it, he probably should have pushed the fullbacks higher to create overloads, or employed Foden AND Grealish, who can operate in tighter spaces than the likes of Rashford or Sterling... but he didn't I would say Southgate is still worried about his goalkeeper and CBs, which is why he is employing effectively a block of 6 defensive players (Back 4 + double pivot) and is asking his wide midfielders to primarily track the fullbacks (He has already stated he has kept Sterling in the side for his defensive workrate) Ultimately we won't see a lot of adventure until Maguire is back, and likely even then there may be question marks over his fitness 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapel End Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 5 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said: Without access to their medical records how can you possibly make a judgement. 6 minutes ago, OttawaSaint said: We’re lucky here that we have so many contributors that have played at a decent level of football. It’s great to get that insight. Some think its good to risk unfit players and some don't, that is the debate and has nothing to do with the level of football anyone has or have not played at, if it did this thread would be empty because no one on her has played in the Euros. Who would be potential replacements for those players or if they are not replaced is another debate entirely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Jeweller Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 I'm playing the John Hartson 'Chrissy Gunter' drinking game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 13 minutes ago, Saint_clark said: When has taken an injured player to a tournament because they're "too good to leave out" ever worked for England? When have they ever had a 26 man squad at a tournament? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 4 minutes ago, Chapel End said: Some think its good to risk unfit players and some don't, that is the debate and has nothing to do with the level of football anyone has or have not played at, if it did this thread would be empty because no one on her has played in the Euros. Who would be potential replacements for those players or if they are not replaced is another debate entirely Its a moot point though, as we have 3 extra picks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said: When have they ever had a 26 man squad at a tournament? This is irrelevant, as people have already mentioned in this thread that Southgate might be playing more conservatively waiting for the likes of Maguire and Henderson to be fit. If he hadn't taken them, he'd just have to find a way to win games with what he has - which we will not do if we play defensively as all our best talent is in our attacking play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Saint_clark said: This is irrelevant, as people have already mentioned in this thread that Southgate might be playing more conservatively waiting for the likes of Maguire and Henderson to be fit. If he hadn't taken them, he'd just have to find a way to win games with what he has - which we will not do if we play defensively as all our best talent is in our attacking play. To be fair, you win tournaments by not letting goals in. But he has to get the front unit to play more effectively, and I don't buy the 'kane is perfectly fit' bollocks as he has been an absolute passenger for the last 180 mins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Chapel End said: Some think its good to risk unfit players and some don't, that is the debate No the debate is whether you should take players that aren’t 100% fit for the first couple of games but the medical staff think will be for the later stages, of whether you shouldn’t pick anyone who can’t play from day 1. Ive no doubt your view would be different if it was Danny Ings instead of Jordan Henderson Arnold didn’t go because he was unfit for whole campaign Edited 20 June, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapel End Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 11 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said: Its a moot point though, as we have 3 extra picks Whatever the number allowed i still believe all should be fit and I expect most international mangers would agree. Its just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yozzman Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 48 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said: Do you seriously believe they won’t be fit for the whole tournament? Obviously medical staff at the clubs and with the national team think they’ll be fit enough to contribute later on. Not match fit obviously. When do you suggest we ease them back in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Chapel End said: Whatever the number allowed i still believe all should be fit and I expect most international mangers would agree. Its just my opinion. You can only play 11 So you have 15 alternatives, I have absolutely no problem taking our best CB and CM who are also both of our likely captains if they can play after the group stages.... especially when we were handed a group that in all honesty we should be winning going into the tournament Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapel End Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 11 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said: No the debate is whether you should take players that aren’t 100% fit for the first couple of games but the medical staff think will be for the later stages, of whether you shouldn’t pick anyone who can’t play from day 1. Ive no doubt your view would be different if it was Danny Ings instead of Jordan Henderson Arnold didn’t go because he was unfit for whole campaign Nope. Pick fit players only and nothing to do with the club they play for, don't be an idiot with the silly ings comment. Nonsense about TAA he was picked but didn't go because he had a injury in a warm up game, perhaps a reoccurrence of an earlier injury? Who knows if Henderson or Maguire will have one as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapel End Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 6 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said: You can only play 11 So you have 15 alternatives, I have absolutely no problem taking our best CB and CM who are also both of our likely captains if they can play after the group stages.... especially when we were handed a group that in all honesty we should be winning going into the tournament I respect your opinion but don't have to agree with it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 22 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said: You can only play 11 So you have 15 alternatives, I have absolutely no problem taking our best CB and CM who are also both of our likely captains if they can play after the group stages.... especially when we were handed a group that in all honesty we should be winning going into the tournament Spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapel End Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 A squad is designed to give available options for as many situations as possible so having some unfit players in the group reduces those options and an unnecessary risk..... IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 Hartson thinks you can get a yellow card for not putting the ball out of play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttawaSaint Posted 20 June, 2021 Share Posted 20 June, 2021 1 hour ago, Chapel End said: Some think its good to risk unfit players and some don't, that is the debate and has nothing to do with the level of football anyone has or have not played at, if it did this thread would be empty because no one on her has played in the Euros. Who would be potential replacements for those players or if they are not replaced is another debate entirely I guess I should have added the sarcasm tag (/s) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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