Supporting the players in taking the knee

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

The political maxist argument is nonsence. Come up with a better defence of the booing than that.

Hold on I explained it above and I didn't mention anything about Marxism. The idea that there's some Marxist conspiracy with the England players is quite obviously complete rubbish but no one was arguing that. 

They're booing because there's political baggage associated with the taking of the knee and they are booing the gesture and what its associations. Quite clear and obvious what they are and you yourself admitted they existed even if you just said they could be ignored.

Edited 7 June, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Fan The Flames]

4 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Exactly no response cause it’s clear he can’t logically defend his position. My post is also not a speculative scenario. 

Yes, there are people that think it's just performative. Is this your mate's position?

The kneeling still means something but it can easily mean nothing, if it's not backed up.

[Saint_clark]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

Personally, I think they’re hypercritical woke planks. Can I boo them for being that, or is that racist? 

You could also boo if you have arthritis in your knees and feel discriminated against. 

[SFC Forever]

36 minutes ago, Antrimsaint said:

Whose screaming and if you are not a racist why are you bothered? It amuses me when the gammons froth at the mouth. Its the gammons who seem to be the ones who are always under siege isn’t it.

 

simple, people who boo an anti racism gesture are racist. Are you seriously giving all these fans who booed the benefit of a nuanced political protest. No they are racists and the sooner they  are kicked out of the ground the better.

is it possible for you to have a conversation without using defamatory language aginst others.

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Personally, I think they’re hypercritical woke planks. Can I boo them for being that, or is that racist? 

If your wife will let you, fill your boots.

[supersonic]

1 hour ago, LiberalCommunist said:

Never apologise. Never bend the knee. Treat everyone equally. 

Get politics away from sport. 

Bet you'll be foaming at the mouth if we stopped putting Poppy's on our shirts in November 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Just now, supersonic said:

Bet you'll be foaming at the mouth if we stopped putting Poppy's on our shirts in November 

That’s more pony that needs to go. 

[supersonic]

6 hours ago, Nemi said:

If anything, there isn’t actually a group that has trademarked itself as Black Lives Matter.

 

As far as I understand it Black Lives Matter is the name of the movement which sets out the goals and acts as the network for the various local organisations around the world - but there isn’t an actual centralised group Black Lives Matter - everything is done by these local organisations working to the wider movement of Black Lives Matter.

Either way, taking the knee was Colin Kaepernick’s idea that was just copied by the BLM protests.

 

The funny thing is, the group in the UK is known as "BLM UK".

It actually stands for Black Liberation Movement so this whole myth of it having the same name and therefore people can't (or won't) differentiate between the two is actually nonsense and is, almost certainly, a cover for their underlying prejudices.

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, supersonic said:

Ah the standard "I'm against racism but please protest on my terms" argument. 

They can use the current terms for their protest if they like but don't start whining and calling everyone racist when people boo them. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Can a black man boo them? 

[Saint_clark]

Just now, supersonic said:

The funny thing is, the group in the UK is known as "BLM UK".

It actually stands for Black Liberation Movement so this whole myth of it having the same name and therefore people can't (or won't) differentiate between the two is actually nonsense and is, almost certainly, a cover for their underlying prejudices.

I just googled BLM UK and Black Liberation Movement UK. 

 

The first result both times was; 

https://blacklivesmatter.uk/official-statement

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, SFC Forever said:

is it possible for you to have a conversation without using defamatory language aginst others.

It's OK I found it amusing. I'd never been called a "gammon" before so that's the first time. 

[Fan The Flames]

45 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Some footballers will be doing it because they have been told to do it, some think it's an anti-racism gesture. Others will be sympathetic towards the black lives matter demonstrations and that will certainly be in their minds (like mings for example.) Like everything there will be a range of reasons, many of them totally innocent. 

Clearly the supporters are booing because they don't want to see divisive gestures that have negative associations to violence and political movements both here and abroad at the football. Change the gesture and bring it under the kick it out umbrella and I'm almost certain there would be almost unanimous support. If everyone was as racist as some claim then surely the booing would continue regardless? 

You give broad reasons why the players might be kneeling it but one reason why people boo.

The truth is there will be a range of reasons why people boo too. And no it's not clear.

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Saint_clark said:

I just googled BLM UK and Black Liberation Movement UK. 

 

The first result both times was; 

https://blacklivesmatter.uk/official-statement

Yes I was going to say that's clearly nonsense. The BLM UK twitter controversy from last year that caused the Premier league to panic was from black lives matter. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

You give broad reasons why the players might be kneeling it but one reason why people boo.

The truth is there will be a range of reasons why people boo too. And no it's not clear.

So you accept that the reasons I outlined are all possible reasons from both sides? Then why does the narrative persist then that its all just a bunch of racists even if fans booing have come out and said otherwise? 

You've accepted yourself that there is political baggage associated with the gesture and that that could be a reason for the booing. If that is the case then do you accept that reason? Even if you don't think the association matters? 

Edited 7 June, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Fan The Flames]

3 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

I just googled BLM UK and Black Liberation Movement UK. 

 

The first result both times was; 

https://blacklivesmatter.uk/official-statement

We stand together across the globe to change the world, we kneel together in peace and solidarity asserting Black people are treated as equals to White people. It is a human right to receive racial equality, social and criminal justice in the societies we live and to receive parity as full citizens of the country and as a united nation.

We are a non-political, non-partisan, non-violence platform. Some content published on our website may have limited political content by the very nature of a country state governed and under a system of democracy. We operate in a humanitarian capacity and concern before all else. 

We are not operating in a political capacity, are not a member of nor are we connected with any political party or political campaign.

From that link, they are nice words we can all get behind. Yes.

[Saint_clark]

Supersonic has sent me down a rabbit hole now. Anyone know where the £1.2million donated to the UKBLM Gofundme has been spent? 

https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

[Fan The Flames]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So you accept that the reasons I outlined are all possible reasons from both sides? Then why does the narrative persist then that its all just a bunch of racists even if fans booing have come out and said otherwise? 

You've accepted yourself that there is political baggage associated with the gesture and that that could be a reason for the booing. If that is the case then do you accept that reason? Even if you don't think the association matters? 

But you don't accept that some people booing might be racist.

I don't accept that there is any baggage to the kneeling, it's a universal thousands of years old gesture.  You can choose to not associate the baggage or you can choose to blow it up out of all proportion.

[Nemi]

2 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Supersonic has sent me down a rabbit hole now. Anyone know where the £1.2million donated to the UKBLM Gofundme has been spent? 

https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

Neither of you are wrong:

Elliott Cooper confirmed to the Guardian that Black Liberation Movement UK was the group’s new official name, but said it would continue to organise under the name Black Lives Matter and in collaboration with the wider BLM movement.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/blm-uk-gains-legal-status-with-renaming-as-black-liberation-movement-uk

 

 

 

[Fan The Flames]

4 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Supersonic has sent me down a rabbit hole now. Anyone know where the £1.2million donated to the UKBLM Gofundme has been spent? 

https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

Ian Wrights new conservatory?

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, Nemi said:

Neither of you are wrong:

Elliott Cooper confirmed to the Guardian that Black Liberation Movement UK was the group’s new official name, but said it would continue to organise under the name Black Lives Matter and in collaboration with the wider BLM movement.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/blm-uk-gains-legal-status-with-renaming-as-black-liberation-movement-uk

 

 

 

Indeed, I did read that. It appears for whatever reason they were unable to fundraise under the name "Black Lives Matter", and so registered officially as the group "Black Liberation Movement" to collect the £1.2million I mentioned before. All whilst still organising events and calling themselves Black Lives Matter, and then doing who knows what with all the money. 

Edited 7 June, 2021 by Saint_clark

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

But you don't accept that some people booing might be racist.

I don't accept that there is any baggage to the kneeling, it's a universal thousands of years old gesture.  You can choose to not associate the baggage or you can choose to blow it up out of all proportion.

I didn't say that. I've always maintained that there will be a small group of people who attend football who are racist in the same way that racists exist in the wider population and its possible that some of them were booing. 

Why did you earlier suggest that I had the option to ignore the political baggage if you don't accept that it exists? You're now saying that I can choose not to associate the baggage. If there is no baggage to the kneeling gesture then there wouldn't be anything for me to choose not to associate it with. 

[wadesmith]

One of the reasons I like ‘Taking The Knee’ over ‘Kick It Out’ is that it forces people to confront the issue. The people on here who hate ‘taking the knee’ tend to say ‘let’s go back to Kick It Out’. It’s unthreatening, players wear rainbow laces, multicultural mascots..etc...Ironically it’s the kind of ‘Woke’ bollocks that the people who want it back, usually hate ‘Taking The Knee makes some people uncomfortable..which I think is quite healthy. I like the fact that people on here are putting forward arguments why booing the knee is positive.At least it gets people talking about the issue. ‘Kick It Out’ does fuck all.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, wadesmith said:

One of the reasons I like ‘Taking The Knee’ over ‘Kick It Out’ is that it forces people to confront the issue. The people on here who hate ‘taking the knee’ tend to say ‘let’s go back to Kick It Out’. It’s unthreatening, players wear rainbow laces, multicultural mascots..etc...Ironically it’s the kind of ‘Woke’ bollocks that the people who want it back, usually hate ‘Taking The Knee makes some people uncomfortable..which I think is quite healthy. I like the fact that people on here are putting forward arguments why booing the knee is positive.At least it gets people talking about the issue. ‘Kick It Out’ does fuck all.

How has it got people talking about the issue? It's achieved nothing positive at all. All its done is got a few people to boo at it and the hysterical reaction and majority of abuse seems to be coming from the reaction to that booing. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

If you’re a racist, why would you boo taking the knee and then cheer the black players in your side on? If racist are booing, why don’t they boo black players during the game? 

[Saint_clark]

Just now, wadesmith said:

One of the reasons I like ‘Taking The Knee’ over ‘Kick It Out’ is that it forces people to confront the issue. The people on here who hate ‘taking the knee’ tend to say ‘let’s go back to Kick It Out’. It’s unthreatening, players wear rainbow laces, multicultural mascots..etc...Ironically it’s the kind of ‘Woke’ bollocks that the people who want it back, usually hate ‘Taking The Knee makes some people uncomfortable..which I think is quite healthy. I like the fact that people on here are putting forward arguments why booing the knee is positive.At least it gets people talking about the issue. ‘Kick It Out’ does fuck all.

I'd argue it's better to have everyone united with some people taking effective action than to have everyone divided and just going round in circles. 

[wadesmith]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

How has it got people talking about the issue? It's achieved nothing positive at all. All its done is got a few people to boo at it and the hysterical reaction and majority of abuse seems to be coming from the reaction to that booing. 

Well..we’re on page 6 of talking about the issue..on a thread called ‘Supporting Players Taking The Knee’

[Fan The Flames]

2 minutes ago, wadesmith said:

One of the reasons I like ‘Taking The Knee’ over ‘Kick It Out’ is that it forces people to confront the issue. The people on here who hate ‘taking the knee’ tend to say ‘let’s go back to Kick It Out’. It’s unthreatening, players wear rainbow laces, multicultural mascots..etc...Ironically it’s the kind of ‘Woke’ bollocks that the people who want it back, usually hate ‘Taking The Knee makes some people uncomfortable..which I think is quite healthy. I like the fact that people on here are putting forward arguments why booing the knee is positive.At least it gets people talking about the issue. ‘Kick It Out’ does fuck all.

Great observation about wanting to return to the woke stuff.

[Nemi]

8 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Indeed, I did read that. It appears for whatever reason they were unable to fundraise under the name "Black Lives Matter", and so registered officially as the group "Black Liberation Movement" to raise the £1.2million I mentioned before. All whilst still organising events and calling themselves Black Lives Matter, and then doing who knows what with all the money. 

They effectively act as a fundraising network, then distribute money to different local groups who actually do the on the ground organising. 
 

So as far as I understand there any demonstrations/on the ground action won’t be organised by Black Lives Matter/Black Liberation Movement but by the local groups who get funding from the money raised by BLM UK. So there isn’t a political group called BLM UK so to say but they use the influence of the name Black Lives Matter to act as a network/funding channel for local groups and whatever actions they may want to achieve.

Edited 7 June, 2021 by Nemi

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Saint_clark said:

I'd argue it's better to have everyone united with some people taking effective action than to have everyone divided and just going round in circles. 

And the other thing is that the suggestion from some now is that the payers are continuing the gesture in defiance at the booing. If that's true then its lost its original intention anyway. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, wadesmith said:

Well..we’re on page 6 of talking about the issue..on a thread called ‘Supporting Players Taking The Knee’

People are talking about the divisive or benign nature of the gesture, not how to best tackle racism or discrimination which I thought was the purpose of the protest. Ruling people up with gestures that some find inflammatory isn't getting people talking about issues in any meaningful way. 

Edited 7 June, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Fan The Flames]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How has it got people talking about the issue? It's achieved nothing positive at all. All its done is got a few people to boo at it and the hysterical reaction and majority of abuse seems to be coming from the reaction to that booing. 

Is the reaction really hysterical? I think Southgate and the boys have been very messured. I think people have been disappointed and a bit embarrassed, but not hysterical.

[wadesmith]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

People are talking about the divisive or benign nature of the gesture, not how to best tackle racism or discrimination which I thought was the purpose of the protest. 

..and of course Hypo it did  help deliver your ‘Peado/Swastika analogy..which after the Ted Bates statue is my favourite Saintsweb forum moment! Salut Sir!

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Fan The Flames said:

Is the reaction really hysterical? I think Southgate and the boys have been very messured. I think people have been disappointed and a bit embarrassed, but not hysterical.

I was talking about the reaction on here and on social media. Some commentators have also called the supporters booing racist which is disingenuous at best. 

[Fan The Flames]

5 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

If you’re a racist, why would you boo taking the knee and then cheer the black players in your side on? If racist are booing, why don’t they boo black players during the game? 

Because that's too visable and it's uncool to be racist. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, wadesmith said:

..and of course Hypo it did  help deliver your ‘Peado/Swastika analogy..which after the Ted Bates statue is my favourite Saintsweb forum moment! Salut Sir!

So you agree then that the primary achievement of the kneeling before games is to cause a row between people about the divisive nature of the gesture? 

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I was talking about the reaction on here and on social media. Some commentators have also called the supporters booing racist which is disingenuous at best. 

Only as hysterical as the boys on here were about statues being toppled.

[Fan The Flames]

37 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

We could do the same thing in reverse. 

"Why are they kneeling, a symbol heavily linked with a marxist organisation?"

"They're doing it as an anti-racism gesture, not a political one"

"The anti-racism argument is nonsense, come up with a better defence of the political symbol than that". 

 

Difference is, you're completely dismissing the reason given behind the booing. People who are booing aren't dismissing the REASON behind the kneeling, they're saying there are more appropriate ways to go about it. 

I've dismantled your baggage argument.

England have never knelt for a political reason, Southgate and the boys have said why they are kneeling, the knee doesn't belong exclusively to BLM, it was used by Colin Kaepernick, it's a century old gesture. The link to England kneeling and BLM political stuff is now very very tenuous 

So you have a choice to ascribe all the baggage you want to the knee, or believe in the purity of the gesture.

Personally I think it's disingenuous, in light of everything that the England team has said to persist with linking the two things together. It's as rediculous as claiming someone being knighted by the queen is kneeling for political reasons or booing at your mates wedding for kneeling because those pesky black people who want to defund the police and destroy the nuclear family kneel as well.

[Lord Duckhunter]

17 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Because that's too visable and it's uncool to be racist. 

I don’t think racists really give a shiny shite whether they’re “cool” or not. But if you believe that they can somehow boo unobserved before the game, but not during, then fair play. 

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I've dismantled your baggage argument.

England have never knelt for a political reason, Southgate and the boys have said why they are kneeling, the knee doesn't belong exclusively to BLM, it was used by Colin Kaepernick, it's a century old gesture. The link to England kneeling and BLM political stuff is now very very tenuous 

So you have a choice to ascribe all the baggage you want to the knee, or believe in the purity of the gesture.

Personally I think it's disingenuous, in light of everything that the England team has said to persist with linking the two things together. It's as rediculous as claiming someone being knighted by the queen is kneeling for political reasons or booing at your mates wedding for kneeling because those pesky black people who want to defund the police and destroy the nuclear family kneel as well.

I don't believe that you believe that the link to the England players kneeling and the BLM political stuff is very very tenuous. Be serious. 

[Fan The Flames]

5 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I don’t think racists really give a shiny shite whether they’re “cool” or not. But if you believe that they can somehow boo unobserved before the game, but not during, then fair play. 

Of course they are observed booing before the match, but they are booing to protest against a political outfit dontchaknow.

[Fan The Flames]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

I don't believe that you believe that the link to the England players kneeling and the BLM political stuff is very very tenuous. Be serious. 

I do because it is, how many times does Southgate have to say it or what do they have to do for you to believe it?

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I do because it is, how many times does Southgate have to say it or what do they have to do for you to believe it?

I think the majority of players either go along with it because they don't want to rock the boat or they believe it's solely an anti-racist gesture. That doesn't mean that the political baggage already mentioned doesn't exist. You've admitted yourself that it existed and then tried to deny it (and are now ignoring that bit.) The gesture and its associations is the issue not what the players or Southgate state is the intention. Its obviously not tenuous or they wouldn't have felt the need to remove the BLM branding. 

Edited 7 June, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Fan The Flames]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think the majority of players either go along with it because they don't want to rock the boat or they believe it's solely an anti-racist gesture. That doesn't mean that the political baggage already mentioned doesn't exist. You've admitted yourself that it existed and then tried to deny it (and are now ignoring that bit.) The gesture and its associations is the issue not what the players or Southgate state is the intention. Its obviously not tenuous or they wouldn't have felt the need to remove the BLM branding. 

That's just silly, so you are going to dismiss the celebration of racial unity in its entirety, happy to accept the negative connotations or doing so, despite agreeing with the intention because a political movement half way around the world, that has no bearing on your life, uses the same gesture.

That my friend is a choice you choose to make and that is my point. We are now starting to go around in circles.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

That's just silly, so you are going to dismiss the celebration of racial unity in its entirety, happy to accept the negative connotations or doing so, despite agreeing with the intention because a political movement half way around the world, that has no bearing on your life, uses the same gesture.

That my friend is a choice you choose to make and that is my point. We are now starting to go around in circles.

I'm sorry I don't really understand what point you're making now. You've accepted that there's political baggage associated with the gesture whether you personally choose to ignore that association or not. Bit silly to pretend that the black lives matter has had no impact in the UK even if the most negative impact has been in America. There's been loads of actions by the political movement in this country that would be worthy of disapproval and hostility. Something negative happening in my country doesn't have to affect me immediately and directly for me to have either a positive or negative opinion about it. 

[Jonnyboy]

1 hour ago, Saint_clark said:

Indeed, I did read that. It appears for whatever reason they were unable to fundraise under the name "Black Lives Matter", and so registered officially as the group "Black Liberation Movement" to collect the £1.2million I mentioned before. All whilst still organising events and calling themselves Black Lives Matter, and then doing who knows what with all the money. 

I bet those scary-wary "trained Marxists" (lol) spent it all on AK47s and are taking over the government as we speak 🤭

[supersonic]

27 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think the majority of players either go along with it because they don't want to rock the boat or they believe it's solely an anti-racist gesture. That doesn't mean that the political baggage already mentioned doesn't exist. You've admitted yourself that it existed and then tried to deny it (and are now ignoring that bit.) The gesture and its associations is the issue not what the players or Southgate state is the intention. Its obviously not tenuous or they wouldn't have felt the need to remove the BLM branding. 

It is solely an anti-racist gesture.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, supersonic said:

Bet you'll be foaming at the mouth if we stopped putting Poppy's on our shirts in November 

False equivalence, the poppy isn’t political and has no links to any political or social movement. Unless you’re talking about the white poppy, although that thankfully hasn’t made an appearance in the Premier League.

[supersonic]

3 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

False equivalence, the poppy isn’t political and has no links to any political or social movement. Unless you’re talking about the white poppy, although that thankfully hasn’t made an appearance in the Premier League.

No it isn't, the Poppy Appeal is a find raising event for the charity Royal British Legion.

If people are going to link taking the knee to BLM, then by their own logic, wearing a Poppy is support for RBL...

I'd also like you to search "James MacLean" into twitter in early November and tell me it isn't Political.

 

Edited 7 June, 2021 by supersonic

[RedArmy]

 

1 hour ago, wadesmith said:

One of the reasons I like ‘Taking The Knee’ over ‘Kick It Out’ is that it forces people to confront the issue. The people on here who hate ‘taking the knee’ tend to say ‘let’s go back to Kick It Out’. It’s unthreatening, players wear rainbow laces, multicultural mascots..etc...Ironically it’s the kind of ‘Woke’ bollocks that the people who want it back, usually hate ‘Taking The Knee makes some people uncomfortable..which I think is quite healthy. I like the fact that people on here are putting forward arguments why booing the knee is positive.At least it gets people talking about the issue. ‘Kick It Out’ does fuck all.

Yeah it’s doing a great of promoting unity and not creating bigger divisions than before it started isn’t it