Supporting the players in taking the knee

[JRM]

3 minutes ago, Adman said:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12326827/england-players-being-booed-for-taking-a-knee-has-sinister-undertones-says-kick-it-outs-tony-burnett
 

if you boo an anti racism demonstration, and it’s clearly been stated as that, most people will think you’re racist.

It's a tried and tested defence mechanism used widely by BLM last year, deflect criticism by shouting racist. Works well in the media but most people actually know it's a load of nonsense. 

[Antrimsaint]

On 06/06/2021 at 19:05, bpsaint said:

I know right, he probably has “be kind” on the bio of his social media account that he uses to anonymously abuse anyone that holds a view different to his.

Voted Remain by the way Antrim, just didn’t cry about it when the democratic vote went the other way. Keep sending me your salty tears though, they taste too good.

It must be nice knowing the gammon kings Farage/Fox agree with you. What is it about them taking the knee that so offends you? I think I can guess. Its always the same argument from the Imnotaracistbut brigade.

 I took offence at the “should sort themselves out first” attitude. As if white people don’t have issues. Have you no opinions on white on white crime?

[Pedantic Pete]

49 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

I think its patently obvious that the vote ID is being pushed to suppress votes to be fair

Oh you learn something new every day..Is that why Northern Ireland did it too?

 

[Smirking_Saint]

16 minutes ago, Pedantic Pete said:

Oh you learn something new every day..Is that why Northern Ireland did it too?

 

Last time I checked we didn't live in Northern Ireland, we could compare different electoral requirements around the world if you want but I wouldn't think it adds much of value

There were 6 cases of electoral fraud in the last election.... 6

It will have a far bigger impact of voter suppression then it ever will on electoral fraud, but I suspect you know that anyway 

[Adman]

35 minutes ago, JRM said:

It's a tried and tested defence mechanism used widely by BLM last year, deflect criticism by shouting racist. Works well in the media but most people actually know it's a load of nonsense. 

Or they’re being called racist because they’re opposing an anti racism demonstration. 

[SKD]

3 minutes ago, Adman said:

Or they’re being called racist because they’re opposing an anti racism demonstration. 

And there is absolutely no other way of demonstrating anti-racism than to use a campaign name and gesture that has extremely questionable links? 

[Pedantic Pete]

Just now, Smirking_Saint said:

Last time I checked we didn't live in Northern Ireland, we could compare different electoral requirements around the world if you want but I wouldn't think it adds much of value

There were 6 cases of electoral fraud in the last election.... 6

It will have a far bigger impact of voter suppression then it ever will on electoral fraud, but I suspect you know that anyway 

But we also don't live in the USA which is what the original point was?

I believe that in trials less than 1% were affected as they didn't bring ID but no data was collected to see what groups they were from so I am not sure why the assumption that certain groups are affected more is given credibility without that evidence?

Sorry I just struggle to think that a government that couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, could actually come up with a plan that works in their favour?

 

 

 

[SKD]

If the premier league and FA came out with a new campaign to replace, let’s say the poppy or help for hero’s (arguments sake) called, English Defence League (EDL) and stood in solidarity before each game for this. But made it clear it wasn’t linked to the actual EDL and was to purely show support for our hero’s... How would the ‘non gammon’ feel about that?

 

I highly suspect they’d change their tune around the name links then. 

[Smirking_Saint]

4 minutes ago, Pedantic Pete said:

But we also don't live in the USA which is what the original point was?

I believe that in trials less than 1% were affected as they didn't bring ID but no data was collected to see what groups they were from so I am not sure why the assumption that certain groups are affected more is given credibility without that evidence?

Sorry I just struggle to think that a government that couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, could actually come up with a plan that works in their favour?

 

 

 

Of course they can, its the application that they are crap at...

[LiberalCommunist]

Never apologise. Never bend the knee. Treat everyone equally. 

Get politics away from sport. 

[JRM]

32 minutes ago, Adman said:

Or they’re being called racist because they’re opposing an anti racism demonstration. 

True, like this anti racism demo , what other situations do you think taking a knee could be good for? Every morning when doing the register at school? 

 

[Fan The Flames]

3 hours ago, Baird of the land said:

Curious how those that choose to boo could be accused of trying to ban it.

So you think people who are booing don't want England to stop taking the knee. 

[Adman]

32 minutes ago, SKD said:

And there is absolutely no other way of demonstrating anti-racism than to use a campaign name and gesture that has extremely questionable links? 

FA distanced themselves from the BLM movement in June 2020, this has nothing to do with that. If you’re opposing the knee due to that you’re about a year out of date. The reason is clear, this isn’t an excuse to boo.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Adman said:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12326827/england-players-being-booed-for-taking-a-knee-has-sinister-undertones-says-kick-it-outs-tony-burnett
 

if you boo an anti racism demonstration, and it’s clearly been stated as that, most people will think you’re racist.

That's interesting because by the same logic, if you call yourself black lives matter and copy the branding and actions of a group rioting in America and disrespecting the flag of the UK and the cenotaph then people are going to associate you with that group. 

[Antrimsaint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

That's interesting because by the same logic, if you call yourself black lives matter and copy the branding and actions of a group rioting in America and disrespecting the flag of the UK and the cenotaph then people are going to associate you with that group. 

Certain people will yes

[hypochondriac]

46 minutes ago, Adman said:

Or they’re being called racist because they’re opposing an anti racism demonstration. 

Footballers kneeling say its not about supporting black lives matter and that should be believed without question but supporters booing say they aren't booing because they are racist and we have to disbelieve them? 

[Fan The Flames]

3 hours ago, SKD said:

I mean they literally had Black Lives Matter on the back of their shirts when this all started. Is it any wonder why people associate ‘The Knee’ with Black Lives Matter? A movement which had people burning flags vandalising statues etc. in its name, by the way. 

Its really not rocket science, if they had any sense, they’d use a separate gesture that is completely unrelated to Black Lives Matter and the issue goes away. 

The issue is, football has backed itself into a corner. They don’t even know what they’re doing it for now it’s just seen as the thing to do. 

They haven't got BLM on their shirts anymore, they've explained that they are not kneeling for a political cause but for a socual justice cause. Isn't that enough.

Kneeling is Colin Kaepernick's jesture.

The booing has backed the team into a corner, they can't give in to it. I think the knee would have naturally come to and end after this tournament, who knows now.

Edited 7 June, 2021 by Fan The Flames

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, Antrimsaint said:

Certain people will yes

Well in that case the types of people who scream racist at someone over things like this are likely to be the same people all over twitter doing it at every opportunity. Their cries of racism aren't exactly impactful and they shouldn't really be taken seriously. 

 

4 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

They haven't got BLM on their shirts anymore, they've explained that they are not kneeling for a political cause but for a socual justice cause. Isn't that enough.

Kneeling is Colin Kaepernick's jesture.

The booing has backed the team into a corner, they can't give in to it. I think it would have naturally come to and end after this tournament, who knows now.

Why did they have it in the first place? Why did the UK branch of the black lives matter anarchist group receive loads of donations from people who said they were supporting the anti-racism message that the footballers claim to be supporting? Everyone knows the gesture itself and the initial branding is divisive because of its past associations and that if the gesture was changed there would be widespread support, how does that square with the football being full of a bunch of racists? 

Edited 7 June, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Fan The Flames]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Footballers kneeling say its not about supporting black lives matter and that should be believed without question but supporters booing say they aren't booing because they are racist and we have to disbelieve them? 

What are they really kneeling for then and what are they really booing at then.

[Baird of the land]

11 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

So you think people who are booing don't want England to stop taking the knee. 

They are merely expressing their opinion on the rite. It’s no different to Southgate and co expressing their view that they don’t want the fans to boo. Unless you describe that as a ban, you shouldn’t describe a boo as a ban.

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

What are they really kneeling for then and what are they really booing at then.

Some footballers will be doing it because they have been told to do it, some think it's an anti-racism gesture. Others will be sympathetic towards the black lives matter demonstrations and that will certainly be in their minds (like mings for example.) Like everything there will be a range of reasons, many of them totally innocent. 

Clearly the supporters are booing because they don't want to see divisive gestures that have negative associations to violence and political movements both here and abroad at the football. Change the gesture and bring it under the kick it out umbrella and I'm almost certain there would be almost unanimous support. If everyone was as racist as some claim then surely the booing would continue regardless? 

Edited 7 June, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

What are they really kneeling for then and what are they really booing at then.

They're kneeling as a symbol against racism. 

 

They're booing because that symbol has significantly negative connotations with other things besides anti-racism. 

 

I've said all along, the players should line up together before every game, teams mixing and matching, behind a banner with Kick it Out and a slogan along the lines of "We stand together against racism" or some such. It would have unanimous support in the grounds, on here, everywhere, with not even a hint of booing. 

Funnily enough they'll never change from the kneeling now because it fits the narrative too much to take the booing as a false example of how racism is still a huge issue. 

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Well in that case the types of people who scream racist at someone over things like this don't m

 

Why did they have it in the first place? Why did the UK branch of the black lives matter anarchist group receive loads of donations from people who said they were supporting the anti-racism message that the footballers claim to be supporting? Everyone knows the gesture itself and the initial branding is divisive because of its past associations and that if the gesture was changed there would be widespread support, how does that square with the football being full of a bunch of racists? 

Because in that moment people believed in the meaning of those three simple words, nothing more nothing less. 

The whole thing got perverted and England backed away from it. Yet people still boo.

I think its a shame that people think that the knee is discredited and that's the only reason to not get behind the cause, it's like hating Children in Need because Pudsey only has one eye.

[Fan The Flames]

6 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

They are merely expressing their opinion on the rite. It’s no different to Southgate and co expressing their view that they don’t want the fans to boo. Unless you describe that as a ban, you shouldn’t describe a boo as a ban.

Get real mate. 

[Antrimsaint]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Well in that case the types of people who scream racist at someone over things like this are likely to be the same people all over twitter doing it at every opportunity. Their cries of racism aren't exactly impactful and they shouldn't really be taken seriously. 

 

Why did they have it in the first place? Why did the UK branch of the black lives matter anarchist group receive loads of donations from people who said they were supporting the anti-racism message that the footballers claim to be supporting? Everyone knows the gesture itself and the initial branding is divisive because of its past associations and that if the gesture was changed there would be widespread support, how does that square with the football being full of a bunch of racists? 

Whose screaming and if you are not a racist why are you bothered? It amuses me when the gammons froth at the mouth. Its the gammons who seem to be the ones who are always under siege isn’t it.

 

simple, people who boo an anti racism gesture are racist. Are you seriously giving all these fans who booed the benefit of a nuanced political protest. No they are racists and the sooner they  are kicked out of the ground the better.

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, Antrimsaint said:

Whose screaming and if you are not a racist why are you bothered? It amuses me when the gammons froth at the mouth. Its the gammons who seem to be the ones who are always under siege isn’t it.

 

simple, people who boo an anti racism gesture are racist. Are you seriously giving all these fans who booed the benefit of a nuanced political protest. No they are racists and the sooner they  are kicked out of the ground the better.

Honestly, stop with the gammon nonsense, the name calling is just embarrassing. It suggests a complete lack of being able to rationally and calmly discuss something when you resort to throwing a "hilarious" insulting name at people every other sentence. 

 

[Fan The Flames]

People should boo and own it, not hide behind some political marxist nonsense argument.

[Saint_clark]

Just now, Fan The Flames said:

People should boo and own it, not hide behind some political marxist nonsense argument.

Love the quote from Ian Wright the other night - "The people who are booing don't want to know what the kneeling is about"...

 

Then there's this guy, supporting the kneeling but not wanting to know what the booing is about. The hypocrisy is incredible.

 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Because in that moment people believed in the meaning of those three simple words, nothing more nothing less. 

The whole thing got perverted and England backed away from it. Yet people still boo.

I think its a shame that people think that the knee is discredited and that's the only reason to not get behind the cause, it's like hating Children in Need because Pudsey only has one eye.

No it didn't "get perverted." it was being used by the political black lives matter organisation in America prior to its adoption by the Premier league. At the time it was pointed out that it was a bad idea to use it but it was ignore. Now football authorities claim its mad that the two could ever be conflated when it's clear why the two issues are because like it or not they are inextricably linked and that's largely the fault of the football authorities themselves. 

 

Rightly or wrongly taking the knee has significant political baggage attached to it and it is that baggage that people object to and what is booing booed when the gesture is made. Remove the gesture and pick something else that doesn't have the same associations and there won't be any booing. It's as simple as that. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

People should boo and own it, not hide behind some political marxist nonsense argument.

Is there political baggage associated with the taking the knee gesture yes or no? The Marxist bit is an irrelevance. 

[Fan The Flames]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Is there political baggage associated with the taking the knee gesture yes or no? The Marxist bit is an irrelevance. 

No there isn't to me. It's a simple peaceful gesture that has century's old associations not just political BLM. 

You can ascribe that BLM baggage to if you want or ignore it if you want.

[bpsaint]

1 hour ago, Antrimsaint said:

It must be nice knowing the gammon kings Farage/Fox agree with you. What is it about them taking the knee that so offends you? I think I can guess. Its always the same argument from the Imnotaracistbut brigade.

 I took offence at the “should sort themselves out first” attitude. As if white people don’t have issues. Have you no opinions on white on white crime?

The knee doesn’t offend me, I said it’s a pointless gesture that has lost all meaning. If you read my posts properly you’ll see that I hoped it would be a force for change but nothings really happened. I’d much rather the likes of Kick It Out or a new anti racism in football charity came to the forefront, rather than one which now has some murky crossover with the BLM movement as seen in the States.

Of course white people have issues with similar crimes against themselves, the difference is we’re not blaming centuries of oppression, or black privilege for our actions. There is a serious issue with black on black crime in this country, do the research, watch the news, take your head out the sand and stop shouting “Racist” at anyone that dare hold a different view to yourself.

If anyone’s behaving like an angry gammon it seems to be you.

[Sir Ralph]

17 minutes ago, Antrimsaint said:

Whose screaming and if you are not a racist why are you bothered? It amuses me when the gammons froth at the mouth. Its the gammons who seem to be the ones who are always under siege isn’t it.

 

simple, people who boo an anti racism gesture are racist. Are you seriously giving all these fans who booed the benefit of a nuanced political protest. No they are racists and the sooner they  are kicked out of the ground the better.

So a person who is black or has dedicated their live to working with underprivileged parts of the black community who objects to kneeling is a racist? 
 

On the assumption you will say “yes” I know people who fall within this category. Please explain your logic in this context....

Edited 7 June, 2021 by Sir Ralph

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

No there isn't to me. It's a simple peaceful gesture that has century's old associations not just political BLM. 

You can ascribe that BLM baggage to if you want or ignore it if you want.

Fair enough, you ignore it all you want but I'm not going to show support for the symbol which could then be misconstrued as support for the political aims of the BLM movement.

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

No there isn't to me. It's a simple peaceful gesture that has century's old associations not just political BLM. 

You can ascribe that BLM baggage to if you want or ignore it if you want.

Yes I could ignore it but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Your reply is contradictory. If theres political baggage attached to the gesture that I can ignore if I choose then that means it exists. You may consider it unimportant but many do not and that explains perfectly why some supporters are booing and its not because they're all closet racists. 

[Fan The Flames]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No it didn't "get perverted." it was being used by the political black lives matter organisation in America prior to its adoption by the Premier league. At the time it was pointed out that it was a bad idea to use it but it was ignore. Now football authorities claim its mad that the two could ever be conflated when it's clear why the two issues are because like it or not they are inextricably linked and that's largely the fault of the football authorities themselves. 

 

Rightly or wrongly taking the knee has significant political baggage attached to it and it is that baggage that people object to and what is booing booed when the gesture is made. Remove the gesture and pick something else that doesn't have the same associations and there won't be any booing. It's as simple as that. 

We know that BLM was going before the England knee. England never ever took the knee to support political BLM they took the knee the support the simple sentiment of the three words, Black Lives Matter. An England team that represents all the people in England, who represents all the black players who play and have played for them.

When have the corporate England team ever done a political gesture, so why woukd they start now. Their kneeling was never political.

There simple gesture was perverted by people ignori g the noble message and trying to connect it with political BLM.

You link the two things togethet in your mind if you want, I'm happy to keep it simple. In my mind the England boys are doing it for racial unity and social justice and that's a nice thing, isn't it.

[Saint_clark]

10 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

So a person who is black or has dedicated their live to working with underprivileged parts of the black community who objects to kneeling is a racist? 
 

On the assumption you will say “yes” I know people who fall within this category. Please explain your logic in this context....

Apparently he'll just leave a laughing reaction and move on, as it's easier to pretend your post is a joke to him than actually take things that challenge his opinion seriously.

[Sir Ralph]

8 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

So a person who is black or has dedicated their live to working with underprivileged parts of the black community who objects to kneeling is a racist? 
 

On the assumption you will say “yes” I know people who fall within this category. Please explain your logic in this context....

Antrimsaint - great response to my challenging of your post - “laughing face” which I take to mean you have no response to my point which has blown your feeble logic out of the water. 

[Fan The Flames]

20 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Love the quote from Ian Wright the other night - "The people who are booing don't want to know what the kneeling is about"...

 

Then there's this guy, supporting the kneeling but not wanting to know what the booing is about. The hypocrisy is incredible.

 

Was that directed at me, who five posts before asked what are they booing for.

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

We know that BLM was going before the England knee. England never ever took the knee to support political BLM they took the knee the support the simple sentiment of the three words, Black Lives Matter. An England team that represents all the people in England, who represents all the black players who play and have played for them.

When have the corporate England team ever done a political gesture, so why woukd they start now. Their kneeling was never political.

There simple gesture was perverted by people ignori g the noble message and trying to connect it with political BLM.

You link the two things togethet in your mind if you want, I'm happy to keep it simple. In my mind the England boys are doing it for racial unity and social justice and that's a nice thing, isn't it.

I'm sorry but I think you're being wilfully blind by suggesting that there's no link between the two and that those making the link are being obtuse in some way. They used the same branding, they called themselves the same thing, mings attended a BLM rally, they used the same gestures as the political organisation including raising of the fist, some people donated millions to the UK branch of black lives matter UK and then the Premier league shat themselves and backed away from them after a bunch of terrible tweets from their official account. No one was "trying" to connect the two, the connection was clear at the start and they only changed things slightly when things got a bit too hot for the brand. 

I think if you're honest with yourself you can see why the two are inextricably linked and to suggest that they are and have always been completely separate entities in spite of the above is quite frankly nonsense. 

Edited 7 June, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

In my mind the England boys are doing it for racial unity and social justice and that's a nice thing, isn't it.

It’s a lovely thing, I’m welling up just reading those beautiful words. Looking forward to see these lovely boys playing in stadiums built by slave labour in a region where they throw homosexuals off roofs. 

[Saint_clark]

Just now, Fan The Flames said:

Was that directed at me, who five posts before asked what are they booing for.

You've been told time and time again what the booing is aimed at, as has everyone questioning why it's happening, but still it's just attributed to racism. 

[Sir Ralph]

Just now, Saint_clark said:

Apparently he'll just leave a laughing reaction and move on, as it's easier to pretend your post is a joke to him than actually take things that challenge his opinion seriously.

Exactly no response cause it’s clear he can’t logically defend his position. My post is also not a speculative scenario. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Can we boo them if we don’t believe they’re really interested in equality and are just pretending they are?  
 

I’m unsure of the booing protocol. 

[bpsaint]

4 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Antrimsaint - great response to my challenging of your post - “laughing face” which I take to mean you have no response to my point which has blown your feeble logic out of the water. 

All I got yesterday when I tried to have a rational discussion with him was different replies calling me a twat, most have been deleted now tbf. 
 

I deduced that he has an anger problem, lacks the ability to have a reasoned grown up debate, is probably 14 years old, and maybe retarted. Or most likely, all of the above.

[Fan The Flames]

2 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

You've been told time and time again what the booing is aimed at, as has everyone questioning why it's happening, but still it's just attributed to racism. 

The political maxist argument is nonsence. Come up with a better defence of the booing than that.

[Fan The Flames]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Can we boo them if we don’t believe they’re really interested in equality and are just pretending they are?  
 

I’m unsure of the booing protocol. 

That would be positive booing, I'm all for that.

[supersonic]

6 hours ago, SKD said:

As do 99.9% of the country mate, What do you want for your groundbreaking opinion, A fucking medal? 

The difference is, some of us don’t need to bend over backwards to desperately prove we don’t have an irrational hate for minorities. Believe it or not, you can be for inclusion and against racism without having to be offended (on other people’s behalf) by absolutely everything.

For some, Black Lives Matter creates more division than it solves, is linked to violent protest and has political left wing undertones. Without going into details and throwing the thread off subject which has been done to death, we’ve clearly established that You and others don’t think their is, some do.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and has the right to boo as much as they have the right to support it. You can call names and whine however much you like, you’re not going to change peoples perspective. It’s a pointless argument. 

For me, the fact that some do find issues with it (highlighted above), would suggest that using BLM name and an act associated with BLM as a campaign is foolish and needs to go. Bring back ‘kick it out’ remove the knee removes the discussion / issues 👍🏻

Ah the standard "I'm against racism but please protest on my terms" argument. 

[Saint_clark]

Just now, Fan The Flames said:

The political maxist argument is nonsence. Come up with a better defence of the booing than that.

We could do the same thing in reverse. 

"Why are they kneeling, a symbol heavily linked with a marxist organisation?"

"They're doing it as an anti-racism gesture, not a political one"

"The anti-racism argument is nonsense, come up with a better defence of the political symbol than that". 

 

Difference is, you're completely dismissing the reason given behind the booing. People who are booing aren't dismissing the REASON behind the kneeling, they're saying there are more appropriate ways to go about it. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

The political maxist argument is nonsence. Come up with a better defence of the booing than that.

Personally, I think they’re hypercritical woke planks. Can I boo them for being that, or is that racist? 

Edited 7 June, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter