SaintJackoInHurworth Posted 5 June, 2021 Share Posted 5 June, 2021 (edited) *** NB This is NOT a repeat of the other thread discussing whether or not players should be taking the knee and the rights and wrongs of booing them when they do so. If you want to comment on that then feel free to find that thread and comment there. This is a thread aimed at those Saints fans who are supportive of the act of taking the knee and believe it has value in challenging racism. *** Having established the above, I want to make some brief comments, to pose a question and to make a few suggestions for us as Saints fans... * In taking the knee many players still feel that this act still has value in challenging racism within football. This includes Saints players. It is a campaign supported by the 'Kick It Out' and 'No Room for Racism' campaigns and has no direct association with any other organisation or political campaign. Footballers themselves seem perplexed as a result that fans are booing it and continue to renew their determination to challenge racism by taking this simple act. In particular, the England team have renewed their determination to take the knee, following booing by some fans during the friendly against Austria on Wednesday: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57370117 * In the light of the above, what can those fans who are supportive of the 'Kick it Out' and 'No Room for Racism' campaigns (especially as expressed through taking the knee) do to express our support and to silence those who are opposed to this campaign? * I want to suggest a few possible actions that we as Saints fans can take at the start of next season if the act of taking a knee continues: Join the players in taking the knee Cheer in support when the players take the knee to drown out any boos Chant other things in support, e.g. "Kick out racism - racists out!" or "We are Saints; we hate racism!" or similar Report anyone booing the players when they take the knee. What other suggestions do people have for what we can do to express our support for the campaigns to eliminate racism from football? Edited 5 June, 2021 by SaintJackoInHurworth link was not recognised as a linkas I didn't put the https bit at the front 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisPY Posted 5 June, 2021 Share Posted 5 June, 2021 If you feel that taking the knee will make a difference, feel free to partake in any of your suggestions. If you are against the players motives which are clearly anti-racist then boo. If you sympathise with the motives but feel taking the knee achieves nothing (at least since the ‘get people talking’ moment has passed and not capitalised on) or disagree because of the links to BLM (the group) then turn your back on the gesture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 5 June, 2021 Share Posted 5 June, 2021 Wouldn't the best way to show your support be to clap if they carry on taking it? I wouldn't have thought many people will join in a chant to be honest. Not sure there's the room to join in and actually take the knee in the stands, especially if the stadium is full or near capacity at the start of the season. No one is going to be reporting people that boo because there's no rules or laws against them doing it. Personally I'm ambivalent towards it as a gesture but if people want to show their support then that is up to them. The FA should really get right behind the original Kick It Out campaign now and focus on that. The clubs and players are already doing more than ever on social media and quite a few have banned people who have been overtly racist from the stadiums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 June, 2021 Share Posted 5 June, 2021 (edited) 50 minutes ago, SaintJackoInHurworth said: Report anyone booing the players when they take the knee. Report to who and for what purpose? Booing of the gesture is moronic... but it isn't illegal or racist in itself. Edited 5 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 5 June, 2021 Share Posted 5 June, 2021 I have always been of the opinion that if you've bought a ticket, you are entitled to cheer, boo or comment on whatever you see in front of you. Within the law of course. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 5 June, 2021 Share Posted 5 June, 2021 This whole discussion is becoming very tiresome. 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangkoksaint Posted 5 June, 2021 Share Posted 5 June, 2021 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Ralph Posted 5 June, 2021 Share Posted 5 June, 2021 (edited) I go to football as I enjoy watching it, sing and support saints and forget about the weeks dramas. Singing anti racist songs and complaining to stewards about people booing is not what I go to football for. How about players/fans instead focusing on promoting charities and welfare for underprivileged kids of all backgrounds. That’s something I would support and would have tangible benefits. Edited 5 June, 2021 by Sir Ralph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalCommunist Posted 5 June, 2021 Share Posted 5 June, 2021 Get politics out of sport, before its too late. (check out the usa all sports viewing figures) I'm tired of pampered millionaires patronising me. Lewis Hamilton, Oprah, the Obama's, STFU and do something useful. If Zaha is the first to stand up, you know its broke. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelkel31 Posted 5 June, 2021 Share Posted 5 June, 2021 Ill respect the gesture more when players are allowed to do what they want and not feel compelled to take the knee when they don't believe in it. Ill go out on a limb and say there is no way in hell that only the handful of players that have publicly stopped taking the knee pre game are the ones that believe it is an empty gesture, a significant amount are doing it because the are compelled too or are concerned by the 'cancel culture' epidemic. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 June, 2021 Share Posted 5 June, 2021 2 hours ago, kelkel31 said: Ill respect the gesture more when players are allowed to do what they want and not feel compelled to take the knee when they don't believe in it. They are allowed to do what they want and always have been. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 5 hours ago, Matthew Le God said: They are allowed to do what they want and always have been. cancel culture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 I personally feel that it's lost it's impetus and is therefore not worth doing anymore ! When something becomes habitual then the message dissipates over time ! Being a little controversial though, I find that when some players (Redmond, Obafemi and others) give the 'black power' fist gesture, it can almost be seen as provocative and if it were any other gesture (extreme example = nazi salute) it would not be allowed ! I would never boo it nor am I offended by it but I do feel now that something different should be tried and it should not be beyond the wit of man to find a new approach to a problem which clearly does exist, although I would argue that it is within the minority rather than being institutionalised ! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintMB Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 I think maybe feeling that it’s ok to be equating the black power symbolism with a nazi salute suggests this problem isn't in much of a minority. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintMB Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said: cancel culture? Aka repercussions for actions. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 It's now become an habitual thing rather than a meaningful thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 It's definitely a political gesture to take the knee. It's not neutral. The Black Lives Matter organisation supports, amongst other things, defunding the police and the overthrow of capitalism. Fair enough if you support such things. But (a) I'd rather keep politics out of football as much as possible (b) it's perfectly fine to boo if you want. 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 Regardless of why we're told the players are taking the knee, it's a fact that it's a symbol of an unpleasant political movement. The message doesn't alter that. Football has made the point that it stands for equality. I don't understand why it needs to do it before every game, and using something controversial to do it. It's gone too far and is becoming divisive. End it now. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpsaint Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 Virtue signalling that has lost all meaning, it should have been retired at the end of last season. Theres still serious amounts of black on black crime happening in this country, stabbings and shootings, it’s about time they look inward rather than blaming “white privilege” for their behaviour. Black lives do seem to matter to us, but not to themselves. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggee Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 Is anyone thinking about why the rise in abuse. I don't think the kneel is helping the situation. How does a poor white kid feel, when BLM is displayed at every match? The PC media are in a bubble: real people see it for the sham it is. Saying and thinking that all lives matter is not racist. F'ball should stick to the Kick It Out initiative. BLM is political and should not be part of sport. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baird of the land Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 1 hour ago, egg said: Regardless of why we're told the players are taking the knee, it's a fact that it's a symbol of an unpleasant political movement. The message doesn't alter that. Football has made the point that it stands for equality. I don't understand why it needs to do it before every game, and using something controversial to do it. It's gone too far and is becoming divisive. End it now. I'm curious with England now carrying on this summer is there an end point or do they plan to keep doing this rite for time immerorial because you are never going to eliminate every social media troll. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, Baird of the land said: I'm curious with England now carrying on this summer is there an end point or do they plan to keep doing this rite for time immerorial because you are never going to eliminate every social media troll. I think they'll carry on, and all there'll do is widen divisions. A slogan, a statement, anything to say that equality is supported would be fine. They have to understand that doing something that is affiliated with an aggressive political movement is not cool, and that saying that they aren't doing in the name of those politics doesn't alter that there's a link. That's all aside of any virtue signalling, no place for politics of any sort in football, etc, arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, ziggee said: Is anyone thinking about why the rise in abuse. I don't think the kneel is helping the situation. How does a poor white kid feel, when BLM is displayed at every match? The PC media are in a bubble: real people see it for the sham it is. Saying and thinking that all lives matter is not racist. F'ball should stick to the Kick It Out initiative. BLM is political and should not be part of sport. Saying black lives matter, is not also saying other lives don't. In any case there is not a history of hundreds of years of repression of whites. Edited 6 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Saying black lives matter, is not also saying other lives don't. Actually it is exactly that. Racism is despicable, and affects every colour and creed. The worst racism in this country tends to be directed towards Asians and even white Eastern Europeans (see Brexit), having a tag Black lives Matter is racist in itself (ignore the BLM organisation) and taking the knee is an American idea which sticks in the throat of many here. Support anti racism but do it in a way that is all embracing and uses some other symbol than an imported American idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggee Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 12 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Saying black lives matter, is not also saying other lives don't. In any case there is not a history of hundreds of years of repression of whites. If the imperialists had been black skinned, would they have treated the white people they colonised any differently? No, because we're all bound together by the fact we're Human. Equally good equally bad: products of natural selection & survival of the fittest. Thankfully civilisation has lifted us up enough to see Man's inhumanity to Man, and we should embrace that which binds us. We all matter. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antrimsaint Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 1 hour ago, bpsaint said: Virtue signalling that has lost all meaning, it should have been retired at the end of last season. Theres still serious amounts of black on black crime happening in this country, stabbings and shootings, it’s about time they look inward rather than blaming “white privilege” for their behaviour. Black lives do seem to matter to us, but not to themselves. Tw*t 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 15 minutes ago, VectisSaint said: Actually it is exactly that. Racism is despicable, and affects every colour and creed. The worst racism in this country tends to be directed towards Asians and even white Eastern Europeans (see Brexit), having a tag Black lives Matter is racist in itself (ignore the BLM organisation) and taking the knee is an American idea which sticks in the throat of many here. Support anti racism but do it in a way that is all embracing and uses some other symbol than an imported American idea. If we're the only team at the Euros persisting with this routine it will be interpreted across Europe that we're merely copying America. No matter how well intentioned it may be, is this a message we want to send ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roo1976 Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 All lives matter not just black surely................ football should stick with kick it out as this is becoming boring and it dosent mean anything . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintMB Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 Fuck me this forum can be a depressing reminder that there are a lot of intolerant gammons in the fan base. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 2 hours ago, egg said: Regardless of why we're told the players are taking the knee, it's a fact that it's a symbol of an unpleasant political movement. The message doesn't alter that. Football has made the point that it stands for equality. I don't understand why it needs to do it before every game, and using something controversial to do it. It's gone too far and is becoming divisive. End it now. Forget padded seats in the Kingsland, perhaps we should have one stand for Guardian readers, and another for Daily Mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 2 hours ago, SaintMB said: I think maybe feeling that it’s ok to be equating the black power symbolism with a nazi salute suggests this problem isn't in much of a minority. Thank you for quoting me out of context ! The great thing about these threads is that it’s easy to isolate one part of a post and twist the sentiment completely ! Please show me where I suggested that it was ok to use a nazi salute ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggee Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 10 minutes ago, SaintMB said: Fuck me this forum can be a depressing reminder that there are a lot of intolerant gammons in the fan base. Actually it's the liberal/left that have made matters worse with their usual sanctimonious stupidity. They have created more division in a situation, that in this country, was moving broadly in the right direction. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 The bit that irritates me is every time they take the knee, the commentator says the players are "once again, sending a very clear message". What exactly is the message? If it's just that we abhor racism, great. If they disagree with BLM on defunding the police and replacing capitalism with Marxism, I'd like the PFA or players to make that clear. I'd like to boo those last two propositions, but it's a bit unclear to me what the players are really signalling. It seems either (a) obvious or (b) wrong. I just don't know which. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Badger said: Forget padded seats in the Kingsland, perhaps we should have one stand for Guardian readers, and another for Daily Mail. Ha!! In all seriousness, stuff like this is divisive. It gives those that need no excuse to demonstrate their racist leanings to boo. It also brings in boos from people who support equality and anti-racism, but who feel that this particular method has no place in football. That gives an illusion of a wider race issue, thus a stronger wish to take an anti race stance, and the cycle goes in. It may just be me, but I think a good and necessary message has chosen to ride the wrong horse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedantic Pete Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 15 hours ago, SaintJackoInHurworth said: Report anyone booing the players when they take the knee. I agree, there should be hotline so people can be reported because their thoughts are determined by how someone else perceives their actions. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 48 minutes ago, Antrimsaint said: Tw*t He’s right though. What has it achieved? All it’s done is get some players and ex players saying how pointless it is, other defending why they’re doing it and causing divisions in the crowd where anyone who doesn’t agree with it is immediately labelled as racist. If anyone can tell me what positive impact it’s had then feel free. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedantic Pete Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 25 minutes ago, SaintMB said: Fuck me this forum can be a depressing reminder that there are a lot of intolerant gammons in the fan base. Not looking to start an argument with you, just a genuine observation which I just don't get about people like you?..Don't you see the irony in posting that someone else is intolerant when you are displaying massive intolerance to other peoples opinions..Even going so far as using profanities and name calling? 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve green Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 I was going to post an opinion here, then read the previous posts, and decided I'd get flack from both 'sides'. Stop slinging insults and waving agendas, or if you must (which I guess is everyone's right) at least be mindful of confirmation bias. Also realise just because A agrees with B on one point it doesn't mean he/she agrees with everything he/she says or stands for. Anyway theres a footy game on later so that'll cheer me up, oh hold on. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 35 minutes ago, Turkish said: He’s right though. What has it achieved? All it’s done is get some players and ex players saying how pointless it is, other defending why they’re doing it and causing divisions in the crowd where anyone who doesn’t agree with it is immediately labelled as racist. If anyone can tell me what positive impact it’s had then feel free. Yep, exactly that. The thing on this thread and others like it as that people support an anti racism stance, but have the ability to see that this method has done more harm than good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKD Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, SaintJackoInHurworth said: * I want to suggest a few possible actions that we as Saints fans can take at the start of next season if the act of taking a knee continues: Join the players in taking the knee Cheer in support when the players take the knee to drown out any boos Chant other things in support, e.g. "Kick out racism - racists out!" or "We are Saints; we hate racism!" or similar Report anyone booing the players when they take the knee. What other suggestions do people have for what we can do to express our support for the campaigns to eliminate racism from football? 😂😂😂 Jesus Christ. If you want to do any of those things, do it. If you want to boo, do that. If you don’t care either way, just stand in silence. Edited 6 June, 2021 by SKD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 49 minutes ago, egg said: Yep, exactly that. The thing on this thread and others like it as that people support an anti racism stance, but have the ability to see that this method has done more harm than good. Of course you’ll have the virtue signallers banging on about awareness and every little helps, whilst being totally unaware overall it hasn’t helped 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusic Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 22 minutes ago, Turkish said: Of course you’ll have the virtue signallers banging on about awareness and every little helps, whilst being totally unaware overall it hasn’t helped How do you define whether it is helping or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 4 minutes ago, Dusic said: How do you define whether it is helping or not? Share some examples of the positive impact it’s had 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Turkish said: it hasn’t helped 20 minutes ago, Dusic said: How do you define whether it is helping or not? 15 minutes ago, Turkish said: Share some examples of the positive impact it’s had Turkish yet again showing he doesn't understand burden of proof. You made a claim, you were asked to justify the claim and instead asked for evidence of the opposite. That isn't how evidence works! Edited 6 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajjuk Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, SaintMB said: Fuck me this forum can be a depressing reminder that there are a lot of intolerant gammons in the fan base. This. The mental gymnastics people are going through to excuse their pathetic behaviour would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Anyway people should cheer or applaud, just drown out the idiots, they are entitled to their sad opinions but they are in the minority, its what happened on Sunday anyway the idiots booing got drowned out. Edited 6 June, 2021 by tajjuk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarnia Cherie Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 The bottom line is there have always been and will always be racists. When I was a teenager in the 60's, sitcoms like Steptoe and Son, Love Thy Neighbour, On The Buses and Till Death Do Us Part made comments which were taken as banter. Every culture had a nickname. From what I could see nobody took offence because you gave as good as you got. Today, every word or action comes under the microscope to see is there is anything offensive in it. Taking the Knee has not had the desired outcome. The likes of Sterling, Rashford etc still get racist comments and monkey emojis after a poor performance. No matter what is put into practice to try to stop racism, there will always be those out there who are racist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baird of the land Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 The whole rite has now become a vicous self perpetuating circle. You've got the likes of Lineker now claiming people who are fed up of it or dislike the politics/political connections are the reason it has to continue forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 12 minutes ago, tajjuk said: This. The mental gymnastics people are going through to excuse their pathetic behaviour would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Anyway people should cheer or applaud, just drown out the idiots, they are entitled to their sad opinions but they are in the minority, its what happened on Sunday anyway the idiots booing got drowned out. What sad opinions do people who don’t agree with taking the knee hold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajjuk Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 17 minutes ago, Turkish said: What sad opinions do people who don’t agree with taking the knee hold? Take your pick from ignorant, racist, stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 June, 2021 Share Posted 6 June, 2021 7 minutes ago, tajjuk said: Take your pick from ignorant, racist, stupid. You’re saying everyone who doesn’t agree with taking the knee is one of those three? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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