Taking The Knee at Games

[TWar]

19 minutes ago, SKD said:

In fairness, other than a petty comment about booing from me (I’ll hold my hands up to that), going on a knee for 1 second is also pretty easy to ignore and wouldn’t have been mentioned or thought about, at all. 

Would wearing a ‘kick it out’ t-shirt before every game be any different? Handing out ‘kick it out’ t-shirts to fans before the game? Have kick it out sponsor on the back of every shirt? It’s all tokenism and the only way to combat racism is education. Taking a knee, is not educating anyone. 

What you are however still ignoring, is why they need to use a campaign which has links to (or as many see it having links to because of the name) a political organisation to make the point. If it was me and my campaign however innocent had any links to what many see as a bad organisation, I’d want to distance myself as much as possible. Not share the exact same name or carry out the same actions. 

Personally, the one campaign i seem to remember most, was the ‘racism just isn’t saintly’ (or something along those lines) from the early 00’s. The symbol was a white stick man shaking hands with a black stick man. That was something I could relate to. BLM and the violence and left wing politics seemingly attached to it, I cannot. 

The thing is, you are not the only one. Your comment is one of many many comments regarding this I have heard both in person and online since the kneeling began, as well as many positive comments. At the very least it is starting a dialogue. I don't think I said the phrase "kick it out" or "racism just aint saintly" outloud more than twice in my life. BLM on the other hand has been discussed on repeat for ages.

Also BLM is a loose conglomeration of different factions and pre-existing groups with a collective goal. It's like feminism or flat-eartherism or whatever. It doesn't really have a centralised power structure. There are some Marxists involved, of course, the idea of systemic oppression existing gels pretty well with the dialectic materialism at the heart of Marxism, but you don't need to be a Marxist to support BLM. Marxists supported a lot of good causes over the years like the existence of weekends, the 40 hour working week, womens voting, the legalisation of homosexuality, the abolition of Apartheid in south africa, the minimum wage, against the Iraq war ect. That doesn't make those causes invalid. It seems the only thing people have linking BLM to Marxism is one of the founders was a Marxist and that doesn't really seem enough to turn on them. They will have good and bad people like any organisation but BLM is doing more for the conversation in the last year or so than I think anyone else has done in decades.

Edited 20 May, 2021 by TWar

[East Kent Saint]

9 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Lol. A great many more people are more aligned with my views than yours. That's why the vast majority reject woke nonsense and empty virtue signalling (yet another yougov poll out yesterday confirming this), why Corbyn was crushed, why the lib. Dems have fallen off the face of the Earth, why brexit happened and why Starmer is getting mullered in every opinion poll. From my position it seems that almost every cause you and people like you have championed over the past few years has been soundly defeated whenever the general public have been asked what they think. Your politics aren't appealing, your views aren't popular, and despite widespread support in media and major institutions you don't have support where it counts. 

 

You're losing. 

I think it's more to do with the fast changing state of the world , banking crisis , Brexit , Covid and now fast approaching major changes as a result of climate change . Climate change which is causing mass migration , great changes as regard transport and even how you are allowed to heat your house ! Of Course Corbyn and his supporters , Scottish Indy ref (which cost Labour a number of MPs they will never get back) and Lib Dems going in with Cameron also tipped the balance . People feel they have an uncertain future so are circling the wagons , so to speak .

Edited 20 May, 2021 by East Kent Saint

[Griffo]

People are sick and tired of having how racist they are forced upon them from all angles 24/7. 

Good on those that booed. Hopefully 1000s more will be doing the same at the start of next season if they continue with it.
 

 

[supersonic]

16 minutes ago, TWar said:

The thing is, you are not the only one. Your comment is one of many many comments regarding this I have heard both in person and online since the kneeling began, as well as many positive comments. At the very least it is starting a dialogue. I don't think I said the phrase "kick it out" or "racism just aint saintly" outloud more than twice in my life. BLM on the other hand has been discussed on repeat for ages.

Also BLM is a loose conglomeration of different factions and pre-existing groups with a collective goal. It's like feminism or flat-eartherism or whatever. It doesn't really have a centralised power structure. There are some Marxists involved, of course, the idea of systemic oppression existing gels pretty well with the dialectic materialism at the heart of Marxism, but you don't need to be a Marxist to support BLM. Marxists supported a lot of good causes over the years like the existence of weekends, the 40 hour working week, womens voting, the legalisation of homosexuality, the abolition of Apartheid in south africa, the minimum wage, against the Iraq war ect. That doesn't make those causes invalid. It seems the only thing people have linking BLM to Marxism is one of the founders was a Marxist and that doesn't really seem enough to turn on them. They will have good and bad people like any organisation but BLM is doing more for the conversation in the last year or so than I think anyone else has done in decades.

Very well balanced and educated post, and it's nice to see some sense being spoken on here.

Perhaps I'm being cynical, but the whole "I don't support kneeling/Black Lives Matter because of its links to Marxism" is, in most cases I've witnessed, just an excuse for people as, for the first time that I can remember, an anti-racism movement has metaphorically looked people in the eye and challenged behaviours/attitudes and this makes people feel uncomfortable, but they aren't brave enough to state their real reasons.

Interestingly enough, I suspect most people who use the "Marxist" excuse, couldn't identify 3 traits of Marxism.

As you quite rightly say, it's started the conversation, and given oppressed people more of a voice to speak out against discrimination.

As for the kneeing, I think this will stop after this season.

[vin]

1 hour ago, Griffo said:

People are sick and tired of having how racist they are forced upon them from all angles 24/7. 

Good on those that booed. Hopefully 1000s more will be doing the same at the start of next season if they continue with it.
 

 

Perhaps people are sick and tired of actual racism being forced upon them from all angles 24/7. 

At least you have the option to ignore a gesture such as taking the knee if it annoys you. 

[SKD]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

The thing is, you are not the only one. Your comment is one of many many comments regarding this I have heard both in person and online since the kneeling began, as well as many positive comments. At the very least it is starting a dialogue. I don't think I said the phrase "kick it out" or "racism just aint saintly" outloud more than twice in my life. BLM on the other hand has been discussed on repeat for ages.

Also BLM is a loose conglomeration of different factions and pre-existing groups with a collective goal. It's like feminism or flat-eartherism or whatever. It doesn't really have a centralised power structure. There are some Marxists involved, of course, the idea of systemic oppression existing gels pretty well with the dialectic materialism at the heart of Marxism, but you don't need to be a Marxist to support BLM. Marxists supported a lot of good causes over the years like the existence of weekends, the 40 hour working week, womens voting, the legalisation of homosexuality, the abolition of Apartheid in south africa, the minimum wage, against the Iraq war ect. That doesn't make those causes invalid. It seems the only thing people have linking BLM to Marxism is one of the founders was a Marxist and that doesn't really seem enough to turn on them. They will have good and bad people like any organisation but BLM is doing more for the conversation in the last year or so than I think anyone else has done in decades.

BLM is only a household name because of the violence attached to the protests. Without that, it wouldn’t have had the ongoing media attention. No one has looted shops, torn down statues, attacked police etc. In the the name of ‘Kick it out’. I expect, given previous posts from you in this thread, you support that. Fair enough, I don’t. 

I’ll never support BLM. Not because I hate black people, but because of the actions taken (by mostly white people funny enough) in its name last summer and it’s obvious links to left wing politics. 

I’m not insecure enough to have the need to question my morality every day to ensure I’ve not woken up with some irrational hate of people of colour. And even if I wasn’t, would seeing token gestures change my opinion? Absolutely not.  

From your posts, I can tell that other than a love of saints, there is very limited we’d ever agree on. I suspect, you are what I would call ‘a woke hipster snowflake’. But we’re going to have agree to disagree on this one. 

[austsaint]

7 minutes ago, SKD said:

BLM is only a household name because of the violence attached to the protests. Without that, it wouldn’t have had the ongoing media attention. No one has looted shops, torn down statues, attacked police etc. In the the name of ‘Kick it out’. I expect, given previous posts from you in this thread, you support that. Fair enough, I don’t. 

I’ll never support BLM. Not because I hate black people, but because of the actions taken (by mostly white people funny enough) in its name last summer and it’s obvious links to left wing politics. 

I’m not insecure enough to have the need to question my morality every day to ensure I’ve not woken up with some irrational hate of people of colour. And even if I wasn’t, would seeing token gestures change my opinion? Absolutely not.  

From your posts, I can tell that other than a love of saints, there is very limited we’d ever agree on. I suspect, you are what I would call ‘a woke hipster snowflake’. But we’re going to have agree to disagree on this one. 

About time you went on holiday.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, supersonic said:

Very well balanced and educated post, and it's nice to see some sense being spoken on here.

Perhaps I'm being cynical, but the whole "I don't support kneeling/Black Lives Matter because of its links to Marxism" is, in most cases I've witnessed, just an excuse for people as, for the first time that I can remember, an anti-racism movement has metaphorically looked people in the eye and challenged behaviours/attitudes and this makes people feel uncomfortable, but they aren't brave enough to state their real reasons.

Interestingly enough, I suspect most people who use the "Marxist" excuse, couldn't identify 3 traits of Marxism.

As you quite rightly say, it's started the conversation, and given oppressed people more of a voice to speak out against discrimination.

As for the kneeing, I think this will stop after this season.

How do you know they "aren't brave enough to state their real reasons?" I'm deeply uncomfortable with some people putting words in the mouths of others and guessing what they are thinking because they have a different point of view to them. You have absolutely no evidence or idea about what someone is" really" thinking, you just have your own prejudice and are projecting that onto people with opinions you dislike. 

[hypochondriac]

50 minutes ago, vin said:

Perhaps people are sick and tired of actual racism being forced upon them from all angles 24/7. 

At least you have the option to ignore a gesture such as taking the knee if it annoys you. 

You're mental. 

[TWar]

23 minutes ago, SKD said:

BLM is only a household name because of the violence attached to the protests.

Nonsense. BLM is a household name because of how many people support it. It was supported publicly and openly by pretty much every American celebrity you can think of, half their politicians, most of our UK celebrities. If you pick a name at random who is in the public eye, chances are they came out in support of BLM. The couple of incidences of looting or violence is not more in the public mindset than the kneeling of the now president of America, for example. We are discussing this now because players are still showing support for it, not because of any statue toppling.

I honestly don't think you are a racist, for the record, I think you like living in a position where racism isn't a factor in your life. You enjoy not thinking about it, thinking of racists as bald swastika wearing lunatics and convincing yourself that there are barely any of them so there isn't that big an issue. The problem is that isn't what racism actually is, it is real, and your want to not think about it is in direct opposition to those who are experiencing it and are trying to do something about it. You aren't a racist, most likely, but your apathy certainly doesn't help.

Edited 20 May, 2021 by TWar

[TWar]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How do you know they "aren't brave enough to state their real reasons?" I'm deeply uncomfortable with some people putting words in the mouths of others and guessing what they are thinking because they have a different point of view to them. You have absolutely no evidence or idea about what someone is" really" thinking, you just have your own prejudice and are projecting that onto people with opinions you dislike. 

Well it's one of two things. Either people actually believe that having Marxists supporting a movement invalidates it, despite not knowing the first thing about Marxism or the movements Marxists have previously supported, which is deeply stupid. Or that people really don't like the fact we are discussing racial issues more than ever and want to go back to normal. This is not the sort of reason, usually, one would openly state as it makes you look like a bellend given all the current racial issues in the world so they hide behind "leftist, Marxists want you to support BLM so I won't, I liked the quiet campaigns no one ever considered or spoke about". I personally think there are some people in each camp, but there definitely exists a lot of people in the second.

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, TWar said:

Well it's one of two things. Either people actually believe that having Marxists supporting a movement invalidates it, despite not knowing the first thing about Marxism or the movements Marxists have previously supported, which is deeply stupid. Or that people really don't like the fact we are discussing racial issues more than ever and want to go back to normal. This is not the sort of reason, usually, one would openly state as it makes you look like a bellend given all the current racial issues in the world so they hide behind "leftist, Marxists want you to support BLM so I won't, I liked the quiet campaigns no one ever considered or spoke about". I personally think there are some people in each camp, but there definitely exists a lot of people in the second.

So just to confirm, objecting to black lives matter campaigns and taking the knee at football isn't proof that you're a closet racist? Because that's the accusation of some on here. 

[SKD]

20 minutes ago, austsaint said:

About time you went on holiday.

Silence those you disagree with? A bit facist, some might say. 

[TWar]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

So just to confirm, objecting to black lives matter campaigns and taking the knee at football isn't proof that you're a closet racist? Because that's the accusation of some on here. 

No, I actually addressed this is in my second to last comment. You don't have to be a racist to reject the knee. Most people doing so just don't want to think about racism. The problem is the urge not to think about racism when it is an issue that needs discussing and solving is counter productive. Here is a quote from MLK on the matter:

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season.""

You can be as accepting and non-racist as you like, but if you hold back the fight against racism because you don't want to think about it, then you are part of the problem.

[austsaint]

1 minute ago, SKD said:

Silence those you disagree with? A bit facist, some might say. 

You're making enough noise for all of us champion.

[SKD]

Just now, austsaint said:

You're making enough noise for all of us champion.

Don’t like it, then use the ignore button, buddy. Guess what, it’s a forum where people express their opinions. 

From the thread title, I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to say it’s pretty obvious what is being discussed, if you don’t want to see arguments and counter arguments, just scroll past it. But I’m glad my opinion has rattled you enough to suggest I should get a ban. 

TWar has probably posted just as much as I have in this thread, but you agree with him so it’s okay...

[supersonic]

17 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How do you know they "aren't brave enough to state their real reasons?" I'm deeply uncomfortable with some people putting words in the mouths of others and guessing what they are thinking because they have a different point of view to them. You have absolutely no evidence or idea about what someone is" really" thinking, you just have your own prejudice and are projecting that onto people with opinions you dislike. 

Well, I've confronted several people on social media who have claimed they don't support BLM or kneeling because of their links to Marxism, but not one of them has been able to give me an example of what Marxist factors they truly dislike (in fact they couldn't name one Marxist theory).

You'd think if they hated Marxism that much, they'd be able to at least provide some examples of the theory and the reasons why they dislike it...

It doesn't take much looking into someone to know what their real reasons are.

[SKD]

5 minutes ago, TWar said:

No, I actually addressed this is in my second to last comment. You don't have to be a racist to reject the knee. Most people doing so just don't want to think about racism. The problem is the urge not to think about racism when it is an issue that needs discussing and solving is counter productive. Here is a quote from MLK on the matter:

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season.""

You can be as accepting and non-racist as you like, but if you hold back the fight against racism because you don't want to think about it, then you are part of the problem.

Which is exactly the point in why players are indirectly forced to take the knee. 

‘Agree or not, Do as we say or you’re part of the problem.’ Starting to see why people may oppose it now? 

[TWar]

1 minute ago, SKD said:

Which is exactly the point in why players are indirectly forced to take the knee. 

‘Agree or not, Do as we say or you’re part of the problem.’ Starting to see why people may oppose it now? 

Players are welcome not to take the knee, lots of players have and have given good reasons. If your view is "keep politics out of football" or "stop talking about this issue" then you objectively are part of the problem. You can either deal with that fact or get upset, but it doesn't stop it being true.

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, TWar said:

The thing is, you are not the only one. Your comment is one of many many comments regarding this I have heard both in person and online since the kneeling began, as well as many positive comments. At the very least it is starting a dialogue. I don't think I said the phrase "kick it out" or "racism just aint saintly" outloud more than twice in my life. BLM on the other hand has been discussed on repeat for ages.

Also BLM is a loose conglomeration of different factions and pre-existing groups with a collective goal. It's like feminism or flat-eartherism or whatever. It doesn't really have a centralised power structure. There are some Marxists involved, of course, the idea of systemic oppression existing gels pretty well with the dialectic materialism at the heart of Marxism, but you don't need to be a Marxist to support BLM. Marxists supported a lot of good causes over the years like the existence of weekends, the 40 hour working week, womens voting, the legalisation of homosexuality, the abolition of Apartheid in south africa, the minimum wage, against the Iraq war ect. That doesn't make those causes invalid. It seems the only thing people have linking BLM to Marxism is one of the founders was a Marxist and that doesn't really seem enough to turn on them. They will have good and bad people like any organisation but BLM is doing more for the conversation in the last year or so than I think anyone else has done in decades.

What have they achieved? 

[Turkish]

9 minutes ago, TWar said:

Players are welcome not to take the knee, lots of players have and have given good reasons. If your view is "keep politics out of football" or "stop talking about this issue" then you objectively are part of the problem. You can either deal with that fact or get upset, but it doesn't stop it being true.

Morgan Freeman wants people to stop going on about racism, is he part of the problem too? 

Morgan Freeman on Black History Month - YouTube

[vin]

37 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How do you know they "aren't brave enough to state their real reasons?" I'm deeply uncomfortable with some people putting words in the mouths of others and guessing what they are thinking because they have a different point of view to them. You have absolutely no evidence or idea about what someone is" really" thinking, you just have your own prejudice and are projecting that onto people with opinions you dislike. 

 

37 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You're mental. 

🤣 It would seem that you're not that uncomfortable with it after all.

[Lord Duckhunter]

12 minutes ago, supersonic said:

Well, I've confronted several people on social media who have claimed they don't support BLM or kneeling because of their links to Marxism, but not one of them has been able to give me an example of what Marxist factors they truly dislike (in fact they couldn't name one Marxist theory).

You'd think if they hated Marxism that much, they'd be able to at least provide some examples of the theory and the reasons why they dislike it...

It doesn't take much looking into someone to know what their real reasons are.

Can you give us a real example of where there’s racial inequality in The UK. Are black people paid less, do different laws apply to them, are they educated differently, are millionaire black footballers treated differently than white millionaire footballers? You’re quick to point things out to others, so maybe you could point the inequality out to us. 
 

[East Kent Saint]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Can you give us a real example of where there’s racial inequality in The UK. Are black people paid less, do different laws apply to them, are they educated differently, are millionaire black footballers treated differently than white millionaire footballers? You’re quick to point things out to others, so maybe you could point the inequality out to us. 
 

The answer to your questions is Yes they are , the law is the same just applied differently (stop and search for example) Yes they are in general paid less compared with their colleagues at the same level , yes the footballers suffer more abuse and yes the education system does discriminate at all stages.

[aintforever]

33 minutes ago, supersonic said:

Well, I've confronted several people on social media who have claimed they don't support BLM or kneeling because of their links to Marxism, but not one of them has been able to give me an example of what Marxist factors they truly dislike (in fact they couldn't name one Marxist theory).

You'd think if they hated Marxism that much, they'd be able to at least provide some examples of the theory and the reasons why they dislike it...

It doesn't take much looking into someone to know what their real reasons are.

It's almost as if they are looking for a reason to oppose it, who would have thought.

I think we all know the types.

[TWar]

18 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 Are black people paid less
 

Yes: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2018

18 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 do different laws apply to them
 

Yes: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/479874/analysis-of-ethnicity-and-custodial-sentences.pdf

"Being recorded by a police officer as coming from a Black, Asian, or Minority Ethnic (BAME) background was independently associated with approximately 39% higher odds of being sentenced to prison, than offenders who were recorded by police officers as coming from a White ethnic background."

18 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 are they educated differently

Yes: https://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/default/files/jrf/migrated/files/poverty-ethnicity-education-full.pdf

Quality of schools in predominantly black areas are significantly lower than in predominantly white areas, as seen in the above source

18 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

are millionaire black footballers treated differently than white millionaire footballers?
 

Remarkably still yes: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-52979173

Transitioning beyond your career into management is significantly more challenging for black players than white players.

 

You know you have google too, you could answer these questions yourself if you tried.

Edited 20 May, 2021 by TWar

[TWar]

22 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Morgan Freeman wants people to stop going on about racism, is he part of the problem too? 

Morgan Freeman on Black History Month - YouTube

Yes, Morgan Freemans views here are very much counter-productive. Colour-blindness is a really bad way to deal with racial discrimination. Here is an article on it https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/color-blindness-is-counterproductive/405037/.

Some black people can be wrong, that's fine, Morgan Freeman actually dedicated his social media to amplifying experiences of racism (https://www.nme.com/news/film/morgan-freeman-share-peoples-experiences-racism-social-platforms-2682978) last year so his "lets not talk about it" thing seems to not be his view at the moment. Morgan Freeman himself often says things that are pretty silly on a number of matters, sometimes people have weird views. That's fine, black people aren't deities, they are also people capable of bad takes.

[BERMUDASAINT]

28 minutes ago, TWar said:

Yes, Morgan Freemans views here are very much counter-productive. Colour-blindness is a really bad way to deal with racial discrimination. Here is an article on it https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/color-blindness-is-counterproductive/405037/.

Some black people can be wrong, that's fine, Morgan Freeman actually dedicated his social media to amplifying experiences of racism (https://www.nme.com/news/film/morgan-freeman-share-peoples-experiences-racism-social-platforms-2682978) last year so his "lets not talk about it" thing seems to not be his view at the moment. Morgan Freeman himself often says things that are pretty silly on a number of matters, sometimes people have weird views. That's fine, black people aren't deities, they are also people capable of bad takes.

I admire your dedication to educate the unenlightened. Keep up the good fight!

[Lighthouse]

https://blacklivesmatter.com/makhia-bryant/
 

Thoughts on this incident?

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, vin said:

 

🤣 It would seem that you're not that uncomfortable with it after all.

Show me where I've either put words in your mouth or guessed what you're thinking. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

No, I actually addressed this is in my second to last comment. You don't have to be a racist to reject the knee. Most people doing so just don't want to think about racism. The problem is the urge not to think about racism when it is an issue that needs discussing and solving is counter productive. Here is a quote from MLK on the matter:

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season.""

You can be as accepting and non-racist as you like, but if you hold back the fight against racism because you don't want to think about it, then you are part of the problem.

What if you're supportive of equality of opportunity and you don't want discrimination but you don't support this particular method for the myriad of reasons already mentioned? Bear in mind when answering that a number of Black people feel this way too. Are they part of the problem? Self hating black people? 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, East Kent Saint said:

The answer to your questions is Yes they are , the law is the same just applied differently (stop and search for example) Yes they are in general paid less compared with their colleagues at the same level , yes the footballers suffer more abuse and yes the education system does discriminate at all stages.

The education system discriminates against black people at all stages? Is that all ethnicities or just black people in general? Do white working class males face discrimination in education? 

[skintsaint]

blimey..its like re-reading the last thread about it all. Who restarted it! 😄

[TWar]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What if you're supportive of equality of opportunity and you don't want discrimination but you don't support this particular method for the myriad of reasons already mentioned? Bear in mind when answering that a number of Black people feel this way too. Are they part of the problem? Self hating black people? 

Depends on the reason, if it is it doesn't go far enough and is tokenistic, then yeah it's a fair point. If it is "Marxism" or "things are fine" or "keep politics out of football", then you are either an idiot or pretending to be one to not confront the issues. As for the "some black people agree with me, so it doesn't matter if the vast majority don't" argument. See my reply to Turkish regarding Morgan Freeman.

[SKD]

17 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

https://blacklivesmatter.com/makhia-bryant/
 

Thoughts on this incident?

Terrible, of course, and a demonstration of why Yanks can’t be trusted with fire arms. 

0 relevance to the premier league or this country in general. And absolutely nothing in that article to suggest it was a racially aggravated act though. 

[TWar]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Do white working class males face discrimination in education? 

Yes, they do. Class is one of many determining factors as to your chances in life. I think there was a German guy who wrote some pretty useful stuff on the matter.

[hypochondriac]

12 minutes ago, SKD said:

Terrible, of course, and a demonstration of why Yanks can’t be trusted with fire arms. 

0 relevance to the premier league or this country in general. And absolutely nothing in that article to suggest it was a racially aggravated act though. 

So black people who don't agree with black lives matter and don't want demonstration of that nature at the football are wrong and guilty of bad takes? I'm not sure about that. That seems like your marginalising black opinions to me. 

[SKD]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

Yes, Morgan Freemans views here are very much counter-productive. Colour-blindness is a really bad way to deal with racial discrimination. Here is an article on it https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/color-blindness-is-counterproductive/405037/.

Some black people can be wrong, that's fine, Morgan Freeman actually dedicated his social media to amplifying experiences of racism (https://www.nme.com/news/film/morgan-freeman-share-peoples-experiences-racism-social-platforms-2682978) last year so his "lets not talk about it" thing seems to not be his view at the moment. Morgan Freeman himself often says things that are pretty silly on a number of matters, sometimes people have weird views. That's fine, black people aren't deities, they are also people capable of bad takes.

I know you want to be seen as king of the black people, but sorry, who the hell are you to tell a black man what is and isn’t good for racism? 
 

And before you say it, no I haven’t read the article, I’m sure I could dig out an article on why immigration is bad for the UK and reference as evidence. It doesn’t make it right. 

[Lighthouse]

15 minutes ago, SKD said:

Terrible, of course, and a demonstration of why Yanks can’t be trusted with fire arms. 

0 relevance to the premier league or this country in general. And absolutely nothing in that article to suggest it was a racially aggravated act though. 

You think the Police shouldn't have shot her?

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

Yes, Morgan Freemans views here are very much counter-productive. Colour-blindness is a really bad way to deal with racial discrimination. Here is an article on it https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/color-blindness-is-counterproductive/405037/.

Some black people can be wrong, that's fine, Morgan Freeman actually dedicated his social media to amplifying experiences of racism (https://www.nme.com/news/film/morgan-freeman-share-peoples-experiences-racism-social-platforms-2682978) last year so his "lets not talk about it" thing seems to not be his view at the moment. Morgan Freeman himself often says things that are pretty silly on a number of matters, sometimes people have weird views. That's fine, black people aren't deities, they are also people capable of bad takes.

"Colour blindness is a really bad way to deal with racial discrimination" 

Isn't the whole point that people shouldn't be treated differently because of their colour? Remind us what BLM have achieved so far.

Edited 20 May, 2021 by Turkish

[SKD]

10 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You think the Police shouldn't have shot her?

At this point I don’t know if this is a trick question 😂

I try and avoid the news and social media as much as physically possible. On the face of that BLM page, I’d say of course they shouldn’t have shot her... 

To be honest, American policing is about as fucked up as you can get anyway to be honest. All of them on a power trip, far to quick to use violence. 

I’m sure there are some racists within American police forces as no doubt there are here to, but I don’t think in the main they’re racist, I just think they’re idiots. 

Assuming more to the story...

Edited 20 May, 2021 by SKD

[hypochondriac]

25 minutes ago, Turkish said:

"Colour blindness is a really bad way to deal with racial discrimination" 

Isn't the whole point that people shouldn't be treated differently because of their colour? 

Colour blindness is the best way to deal with racial discrimination clearly. 

I don't need some laughable article from the Atlantic to know that. I'll continue to ignore skin colour and treat people nicely or otherwise based on their personalities and how they are towards me. It's served me well so far in life. 

Edited 20 May, 2021 by hypochondriac

[TWar]

48 minutes ago, SKD said:

And before you say it, no I haven’t read the article

I don't know how you can feel so passionately about a subject and then make no effort to research it. I don't know where this "king of the black people" comes from. Black people are not a monolith, some believe some things, some believe others. You can agree with one and disagree with the other, that is allowed. The article you couldn't be bothered to read was written by a black person, incidentally, and they are a professor of sociology rather than just a celebrity. Marginalising black voices doesn't make sense as an argument when you are literally posting black voices. Problem is, you don't understand the concept of racial theory well enough to appropriate its language. Probably because you take no intellectual curiosity in learning, you just want to moan until it goes away.

[TWar]

46 minutes ago, Turkish said:

"Colour blindness is a really bad way to deal with racial discrimination" 

Isn't the whole point that people shouldn't be treated differently because of their colour? Remind us what BLM have achieved so far.

I take it you also didn't bother to read the article. The idea is that people shouldn't be treated differently due to their race, however pretending people aren't already being treated differently and not even discussing racial inequality in the hopes that will get rid of it is not going to work. You need to accept different races exist in order to consider how they are treated relative to each other.

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, TWar said:

I don't know how you can feel so passionately about a subject and then make no effort to research it. I don't know where this "king of the black people" comes from. Black people are not a monolith, some believe some things, some believe others. You can agree with one and disagree with the other, that is allowed. The article you couldn't be bothered to read was written by a black person, incidentally, and they are a professor of sociology rather than just a celebrity. Marginalising black voices doesn't make sense as an argument when you are literally posting black voices. Problem is, you don't understand the concept of racial theory well enough to appropriate its language. Probably because you take no intellectual curiosity in learning, you just want to moan until it goes away.

How do we decide which black voices to listen to if they all think different things and are contradictory? My point has always been that we are individuals and we all think different things. Your point appears to be that black voices that disagree with your views on systemic racism or BLM are wrong and have bad takes. 

[TWar]

17 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How do we decide which black voices to listen to if they all think different things and are contradictory? My point has always been that we are individuals and we all think different things. Your point appears to be that black voices that disagree with your views on systemic racism or BLM are wrong and have bad takes. 

How do you decide anything when there are varying sources? Listen to each of them, try to understand what they say, and use your critical reasoning skills to determine which you think is correct. Then when someone else comes along and disagrees with you you have more than "but person X said...", you can use their argument, with them as a source, and defend it. That is the difference between the gaining of knowledge and a garden variety appeal to authority.

My point of view is indeed that black voices who disagree with the existence of systemic racism and BLM are wrong, just like white views that think that, and any other ethnicity. Being black doesn't make you right. I think you think making me admit that is a winner for you because you believe left wing people think minorities are always correct, we don't, that's a strawman. Neither of us believe black people are always correct so me saying I believe a black person to be wrong shouldn't be news to either of us. If there are two black people disagreeing, one of them by definition must be wrong.

Edited 20 May, 2021 by TWar

[hypochondriac]

28 minutes ago, TWar said:

How do you decide anything when there are varying sources? Listen to each of them, try to understand what they say, and use your critical reasoning skills to determine which you think is correct. Then when someone else comes along and disagrees with you you have more than "but person X said...", you can use their argument, with them as a source, and defend it. That is the difference between the gaining of knowledge and a garden variety appeal to authority.

My point of view is indeed that black voices who disagree with the existence of systemic racism and BLM are wrong, just like white views that think that, and any other ethnicity. Being black doesn't make you right. I think you think making me admit that is a winner for you because you believe left wing people think minorities are always correct, we don't, that's a strawman. Neither of us believe black people are always correct so me saying I believe a black person to be wrong shouldn't be news to either of us.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Seems like we agree then. You have some black voices that agree with you and I have black voices that agree with my point of view. There's no correct answer just opinions and we can't say with any certainty that one set of opinions is definitively correct. it's therefore totally valid to hold the view-as many people including black people do-that they aren't victims of a systemically racist culture, that black lives matter protests are inappropriate at the football, that these protests are divisive for race relations and have harmed race relations in this country and that performative actions against an unjust system in America have very little relevance in the UK. 

It's also true to say (and there's some survey data on this) that many who are very supportive of BLM protests just happens to be the same people who support Jeremy Corbyn, who have a negative perception of the UK, who can't define what a woman is and who want to end capitalism. In other words people like Ash Sarkar and Owen Jones so it's hardly surprising that movements that purport to be solely against racism are viewed with such suspicion when people like that are their biggest supporters. 

Edited 20 May, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Turkish]

57 minutes ago, TWar said:

I take it you also didn't bother to read the article. The idea is that people shouldn't be treated differently due to their race, however pretending people aren't already being treated differently and not even discussing racial inequality in the hopes that will get rid of it is not going to work. You need to accept different races exist in order to consider how they are treated relative to each other.

Yes i read the article. It was a load of bollocks.  The likes of you, Soggy and aintclever seem to think that racism is rife everywhere, which means that your approach hasn't worked has it pal. 

Edited 20 May, 2021 by Turkish

[sadoldgit]

15 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Lol. A great many more people are more aligned with my views than yours. That's why the vast majority reject woke nonsense and empty virtue signalling (yet another yougov poll out yesterday confirming this), why Corbyn was crushed, why the lib. Dems have fallen off the face of the Earth, why brexit happened and why Starmer is getting mullered in every opinion poll. From my position it seems that almost every cause you and people like you have championed over the past few years has been soundly defeated whenever the general public have been asked what they think. Your politics aren't appealing, your views aren't popular, and despite widespread support in media and major institutions you don't have support where it counts. 

 

You're losing. 

It wasn’t that long ago that you were telling us all that racism in football wasn’t such a big thing anymore. Got that wrong didn’t you!

As for losing, I think most right minded people think that any kind of bigotry is wrong so you keep on kidding yourself that the fight against racism is misguided.

[TWar]

14 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Yes i read the article. It was a load of bollocks.  The likes of you, Soggy and aintclever seem to think that racism is rife everywhere, which means that your approach hasn't worked has it pal. 

Things are undoubtedly better than they were even 20 years ago, so the approach of not ignoring it does seem to be working. Just because we aren't at the end yet doesn't mean we aren't moving in the right direction.