Taking The Knee at Games

[Pamplemousse]

I honestly don't see the issue. It's just taking a knee. That's it. No big deal. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Pamplemousse said:

I honestly don't see the issue. It's just taking a knee. That's it. No big deal. 

Exactly. And animal farm was just a nice little story about some farm animals. I don't see why it has to be over analysed. 

[Pamplemousse]

Having Black Lives Matters emblazoned on shirts was misjudged, and the Premier League would be wise not to align itself with an extremist organisation in the future.

 

I don't see the act of taking the knee as being "owned" by that organisation though.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

27 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Personally I like hearing a diversity of views. Keep it up skd, don't let unpleasant and spiteful people stop you from making valid points. 

Whilst I completely agree with the premise, can you point me to which of SKD's views you consider "valid"?

[Lighthouse]

6 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

Which aspect of Kick It Out obliged fans to confront their own complicity (or overt racism) before each and every game?

I think it's naive, wishful and probably a little arrogant to think you can influence somebody's entire philosophy on life just with some simple slogans and gestures. They only have the meaning which you give them. Just look at the debate SKD has been involved in on this thread. He's quite unequivocally opposed to the knee, so there's one of two possible things going on here:

1. He's a raging racist. Well, you've clearly done nothing whatsoever to change his mind despite years of endless gesturing and slogans. Unless you believe he's suddenly about to flip and see the error of his ways upon seeing the knee for the 47th time against West Ham, I think we can file this under 'Not Working'.
2. He's not a racist, in which case all this has achieved is a load of pointless bickering and people who were never the problem to begin with are now the target of the campaign.

I'd like to think it's option 2. Obviously there are people with racial prejudices out there but it's not my place to fling accusations around. Whatever you believe personally, you'd have to agree that in either case, it isn't working. Regardless of what you might want to believe about getting the message out there and making people confront their prejudices, that's clearly not the case.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

Whilst I completely agree with the premise, can you point me to which of SKD's views you consider "valid"?

Pointing out that for many people, the political affiliations associated with taking the knee are enough for many to find it objectionable and an overly politicised act at the football. You may disagree but it doesn't make that any less factual. 

I think I mentioned before that I'm related to an ex footballer with friends at Premier league clubs and he told me how some current Premier league players view this stuff in private but are unable to say anything publically so I know that many of them will not feel comfortable but there's significant pressure put on them to do what is asked. 

[austsaint]

2 hours ago, Pamplemousse said:

Having Black Lives Matters emblazoned on shirts was misjudged, and the Premier League would be wise not to align itself with an extremist organisation in the future.

 

I don't see the act of taking the knee as being "owned" by that organisation though.

The overwhelming majority of the millions of people around the planet who showed support towards BLM marches and rallies last year did so in broad support of criminal justice reform and racial equality.    They  have no affiliation to the numerically small US based political activists.     In that sense sporting organisations, corporations etc have every right to promote positive social change.

[Saint Billy]

I might be completely wrong as this forum is the closest I get to social media, but, it seems that online racism has increased since the taking of the knee. 

[SKD]

6 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I think it's naive, wishful and probably a little arrogant to think you can influence somebody's entire philosophy on life just with some simple slogans and gestures. They only have the meaning which you give them. Just look at the debate SKD has been involved in on this thread. He's quite unequivocally opposed to the knee, so there's one of two possible things going on here:

1. He's a raging racist. Well, you've clearly done nothing whatsoever to change his mind despite years of endless gesturing and slogans. Unless you believe he's suddenly about to flip and see the error of his ways upon seeing the knee for the 47th time against West Ham, I think we can file this under 'Not Working'.
2. He's not a racist, in which case all this has achieved is a load of pointless bickering and people who were never the problem to begin with are now the target of the campaign.

I'd like to think it's option 2. Obviously there are people with racial prejudices out there but it's not my place to fling accusations around. Whatever you believe personally, you'd have to agree that in either case, it isn't working. Regardless of what you might want to believe about getting the message out there and making people confront their prejudices, that's clearly not the case.

You are correct and I guarantee I am not alone in that. You’re right, it’s pointless bickering, the knee is er.... pointless. It’s achieved nothing. 

Personally, I don’t believe that fans need to be challenged of their own overt racism before every game. We’ve already established that racism within football and society (excluding social media) is very rare. It’s just a symbol of modern day 

My issue with taking the knee isn’t because I hate black people, far from it (as the saying goes - I’ve many friends who are black). It’s to do with clear links BLM and BLM’s links to Marxism, statue and history removal, riots and violence. I also don’t believe the players have much choice other than to do it, which makes it a compete token gesture. Personally, I don’t want it shoved down my throat every single minute of every single day. BLM has thrown race relations back 30 years. 
 

Again, as you said it’s a pointless argument and only being highlighted as the first game with fans back, generally speaking, you just forget / don’t notice it happening. A Complete token gesture. 

[aintforever]

9 hours ago, SKD said:

Not me buddy, I was sat on my sofa. 

So you applauded a bunch of cunts booing our own players because they made an anti-racism gesture.

Bravo, what a fucking hero you are.

[SKD]

12 minutes ago, aintforever said:

So you applauded a bunch of cunts booing our own players because they made an anti-racism gesture.

Bravo, what a fucking hero you are.

Wipe those tears away buddy. 

[aintforever]

12 minutes ago, SKD said:

Wipe those tears away buddy. 

Keep pissing your pants over a bunch of lads trying to stop racism if you want, it's sad and funny in equal measure.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Keep pissing your pants over a bunch of lads trying to stop racism if you want, it's sad and funny in equal measure.

I guess taking the knee is at least getting a reaction, which is more than can be said for your attempts to stop racism   

[aintforever]

54 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I guess taking the knee is at least getting a reaction, which is more than can be said for your attempts to stop racism   

Brilliant, I knew the village idiot would turn up.

You fed up with being made to look silly on the Coronavirus thread with your junior-school level understanding of virology?  

[Turkish]

11 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Brilliant, I knew the village idiot would turn up.

You fed up with being made to look silly on the Coronavirus thread with your junior-school level understanding of virology?  

LOL. You are my favourite poster. so incredibly think but think you’re clever. It’s like having a pet snake that you can give a little prod to now and again 

 

[Saint]

Please explain what Marxism is. Seems to be a word that people like to use but generally don't understand.

[LiberalCommunist]

People look to football as a means of escape, they want to switch off from their home life worries, work stresses & politics.

It would be far better for the governing body to end this with close season, rather than have the Fans (paying customers) end it next season.

And that will be the outcome. People are tired of this being forced down their throats. Enough already. 

[swannymere]

On 17/05/2021 at 11:17, SKD said:

 

Plenty of black players refuse to take the knee. Are they racists as well?

I think you're mistaking refusing for declining, you see its all in the detail.

[swannymere]

21 minutes ago, LiberalCommunist said:

People look to football as a means of escape, they want to switch off from their home life worries, work stresses & politics.

It would be far better for the governing body to end this with close season, rather than have the Fans (paying customers) end it next season.

And that will be the outcome. People are tired of this being forced down their throats. Enough already. 

 I think that would be a police issue, how do these people force it down your throat? Do you struggle?

[Fan The Flames]

4 pages and no one thrown in the poppy grenade.

Go on then.

Ban the poppy from the front of shirts.

[aintforever]

32 minutes ago, Turkish said:

LOL. You are my favourite poster. so incredibly think  

 

You think?

[Turkish]

7 minutes ago, aintforever said:

You think?

picking me up on typos are all you have. 

[SKD]

15 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

4 pages and no one thrown in the poppy grenade.

Go on then.

Ban the poppy from the front of shirts.

The poppy Grenade as actually been discussed on this thread already. 

[SKD]

44 minutes ago, Saint said:

Please explain what Marxism is. Seems to be a word that people like to use but generally don't understand.

“Marxism is the name for a set of political and economic ideas. The basic ideas are: The world is split into two classes (groups) of people. These are the workers and the rich. There is a class conflict.”

BLM links to Marxism: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/amp/

Its not us saying it, it’s literally themselves. 

A black player, refusing to take the knee, because “BLM are a Marxist movement”, the filthy uneducated racist: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.lbc.co.uk/news/footballer-lyle-taylor-says-blm-is-marxist-and-that-he-will-no-longer-take-the-k/

[Jeremy Corbyn]

2 minutes ago, SKD said:

“Marxism is the name for a set of political and economic ideas. The basic ideas are: The world is split into two classes (groups) of people. These are the workers and the rich. There is a class conflict.”

BLM links to Marxism: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/amp/

Its not us saying it, it’s literally themselves. 

A black player, refusing to take the knee, because “BLM are a Marxist movement”, the filthy uneducated racist: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.lbc.co.uk/news/footballer-lyle-taylor-says-blm-is-marxist-and-that-he-will-no-longer-take-the-k/

So a founder considering themselves something is the same as the organisation being that something?  Surely you're more logical than that?

[SaintsLoyal]

Taking the knee is a submissive act FACT

This americanism has no place in our sport and like many fans are sick to the teeth of football being used politically non stop and i would of booed the house down yesterday if present.  Black lives matter is a divisive racist american violent organisation and should be banned.

Education in school is were you address the situation.

Edited 19 May, 2021 by SaintsLoyal

[Saint]

Lots of internet "research" going on here and copying and pasting from wikis. Be careful or you'll turn into Le Tissier. 

Was it too much to expect to hear an actual explanation? Probably. 

"Here's something I think. And here's a link to something that backs up my opinion." 

Do your "research" you commies. It's as easy as googling something. 

[East Kent Saint]

The knee is relevent in USA as it was taken when the national anthem was played and where you are supposed to stand up , put your hand on your heart and face the flag . It cost the player his job although he has won compensation. BLM was labelled Marxist by the right / Trump to discredit it . There could well be some in the movement but that doesn't make it Marxist. It wouldn't have got much traction if unarmed people didn't keep getting killed during arrest by the Police .

It is not racist but a small element resort to violence which is unacceptable .

It is time to drop the gesture now in UK and hope the clubs do their bit .

[Wurzel]

I'm still waiting for someone to pull a muscle on his way up again and need substituting before kick off. I wonder how quickly it's continuation would get "reviewed" then.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

11 minutes ago, Wurzel said:

I'm still waiting for someone to pull a muscle on his way up again and need substituting before kick off. I wonder how quickly it's continuation would get "reviewed" then.

So we no longer think it's marxist or that players are being forced against their will, the real problem with it, is that it's a major injury risk.

[Fan The Flames]

53 minutes ago, SKD said:

The poppy Grenade as actually been discussed on this thread already. 

I gave up on page 2, its depressing how many people for the flimsiest of reasons are against something that's seeking a positive change. 

Every player has the right to not do it, but to boo those on the team that you support who do want to do it, is sad.

People have been politely asking for change for decades, it's no wonder some people get angry.

Anyway as someone said we won't change anyones mind, so I just take comfort in the fact that 'progressive thinking' is the direction of travel around the world. It just needs governance to catch up, which it will.

[BERMUDASAINT]

5 hours ago, SKD said:

You are correct and I guarantee I am not alone in that. You’re right, it’s pointless bickering, the knee is er.... pointless. It’s achieved nothing. 

Personally, I don’t believe that fans need to be challenged of their own overt racism before every game. We’ve already established that racism within football and society (excluding social media) is very rare. It’s just a symbol of modern day 

My issue with taking the knee isn’t because I hate black people, far from it (as the saying goes - I’ve many friends who are black). It’s to do with clear links BLM and BLM’s links to Marxism, statue and history removal, riots and violence. I also don’t believe the players have much choice other than to do it, which makes it a compete token gesture. Personally, I don’t want it shoved down my throat every single minute of every single day. BLM has thrown race relations back 30 years. 
 

Again, as you said it’s a pointless argument and only being highlighted as the first game with fans back, generally speaking, you just forget / don’t notice it happening. A Complete token gesture. 

It is not pointless! It is a small gesters, that's why I don't get why it bothers you? How about it represents every baller that has died over the years. It doesn't have to mean blm! We have given a few seconds for a moment to reflect on the injustices of this world. How about you take the time to pray for your loved one past and present. If it annoys you,  you are not being honest about why it bothers you. I am sure you give respect of one min silence for a for a footballer who has passed, hand on the chest and standing for the Queen, why can't you be just as accepting and patient with the knee? 

SKD, you may not be a racist, but my statement that you will never understand the plight of a black man is true and therefore your views should take a back seat out of ignorance! No shame being ignorant on this subject, many are.

Your statement "We’ve already established that racism within football and society (excluding social media) is very rare." Is an example of how clueless your are. 

You are a reg poster and have a lot to say, post on!! Just leave this one alone, bless brother Saint, we are all red,white and black through and through, Saints March On!

 

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, BERMUDASAINT said:

We have given a few seconds for a moment to reflect on the injustices of this world. 

 

 

Yep. The players take a few moments reflecting on the injustices in the world, before trying to play so well, that they’ll be selected to play in ..........Qatar. 

[hypochondriac]

5 hours ago, BERMUDASAINT said:

It is not pointless! It is a small gesters, that's why I don't get why it bothers you? How about it represents every baller that has died over the years. It doesn't have to mean blm! We have given a few seconds for a moment to reflect on the injustices of this world. How about you take the time to pray for your loved one past and present. If it annoys you,  you are not being honest about why it bothers you. I am sure you give respect of one min silence for a for a footballer who has passed, hand on the chest and standing for the Queen, why can't you be just as accepting and patient with the knee? 

SKD, you may not be a racist, but my statement that you will never understand the plight of a black man is true and therefore your views should take a back seat out of ignorance! No shame being ignorant on this subject, many are.

Your statement "We’ve already established that racism within football and society (excluding social media) is very rare." Is an example of how clueless your are. 

You are a reg poster and have a lot to say, post on!! Just leave this one alone, bless brother Saint, we are all red,white and black through and through, Saints March On!

 

 

Does Calvin Robinson understand the plight of a black man? 

[LiberalCommunist]

Abolish the police & prisons. Promote fatherless families. Anti capitalism.  Reparations. No forgiveness, equity not equality. 

You are more likely to be killed by the police if you are white in the USA (fact check true). George Floyd was a career criminal. He didn't deserve to die on the floor, but get a grip, he wasn't the hero that he is portrayed to be. Everything we have seen over the last year screams of some sort of agenda. 

 

ML King said that the most dangerous racism would be that of the quiet white liberal. I'd say he was on to something.......

[JRM]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Does Calvin Robinson understand the plight of a black man? 

This chap made a good point as well 

https://www.nottinghampost.com/sport/football/football-news/nottingham-forest-striker-lyle-taylor-4872901

 

[East Kent Saint]

37 minutes ago, LiberalCommunist said:

Abolish the police & prisons. Promote fatherless families. Anti capitalism.  Reparations. No forgiveness, equity not equality. 

You are more likely to be killed by the police if you are white in the USA (fact check true). George Floyd was a career criminal. He didn't deserve to die on the floor, but get a grip, he wasn't the hero that he is portrayed to be. Everything we have seen over the last year screams of some sort of agenda. 

 

ML King said that the most dangerous racism would be that of the quiet white liberal. I'd say he was on to something.......

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793?source=post_page-----1a2ce329f8e0----------------------

Fact check wrong .....

[Saint Billy]

3 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793?source=post_page-----1a2ce329f8e0----------------------

Fact check wrong .....

I suppose its what fact check you fact check. 

[East Kent Saint]

Seems to contradict the statement that you are more likely to be killed by the police in USA if you are white by quite a margin .

Being a black male is by far the most likely while for females being Native American just tops the chances of being killed by police . Female numbers are way lower in any category.

[hackedoff]

If you feel it's important,embrace it,if not ignore it.

[hypochondriac]

54 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

Seems to contradict the statement that you are more likely to be killed by the police in USA if you are white by quite a margin .

Being a black male is by far the most likely while for females being Native American just tops the chances of being killed by police . Female numbers are way lower in any category.

And absolutely none of it has anything to do with the UK. 

[sadoldgit]

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Does Calvin Robinson understand the plight of a black man? 

Do you? I see you are still getting yourself worked up over people who object to racism hypo. You are just going to have to get used to the fact that a great many people think it is wrong and some of those people are trying to do something about it. There is racism in America just as there is racism here. Ignoring what is happening in America might work for you but I think you will find that a great many people can see that we are not isolated by what is happening across the pond.

[Jonnyboy]

22 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I think it's naive, wishful and probably a little arrogant to think you can influence somebody's entire philosophy on life just with some simple slogans and gestures. They only have the meaning which you give them. Just look at the debate SKD has been involved in on this thread. He's quite unequivocally opposed to the knee, so there's one of two possible things going on here:

1. He's a raging racist. Well, you've clearly done nothing whatsoever to change his mind despite years of endless gesturing and slogans. Unless you believe he's suddenly about to flip and see the error of his ways upon seeing the knee for the 47th time against West Ham, I think we can file this under 'Not Working'.
2. He's not a racist, in which case all this has achieved is a load of pointless bickering and people who were never the problem to begin with are now the target of the campaign.

I'd like to think it's option 2. Obviously there are people with racial prejudices out there but it's not my place to fling accusations around. Whatever you believe personally, you'd have to agree that in either case, it isn't working. Regardless of what you might want to believe about getting the message out there and making people confront their prejudices, that's clearly not the case.

It's quite possibly no. 1, and the great thing is, when you see people booing, they are outing themselves for the rest of us all over the place. 

[Jonnyboy]

16 hours ago, Saint Billy said:

I might be completely wrong as this forum is the closest I get to social media, but, it seems that online racism has increased since the taking of the knee. 

That's the problem of racists. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

Do you? I see you are still getting yourself worked up over people who object to racism hypo. You are just going to have to get used to the fact that a great many people think it is wrong and some of those people are trying to do something about it. There is racism in America just as there is racism here. Ignoring what is happening in America might work for you but I think you will find that a great many people can see that we are not isolated by what is happening across the pond.

Lol. A great many more people are more aligned with my views than yours. That's why the vast majority reject woke nonsense and empty virtue signalling (yet another yougov poll out yesterday confirming this), why Corbyn was crushed, why the lib. Dems have fallen off the face of the Earth, why brexit happened and why Starmer is getting mullered in every opinion poll. From my position it seems that almost every cause you and people like you have championed over the past few years has been soundly defeated whenever the general public have been asked what they think. Your politics aren't appealing, your views aren't popular, and despite widespread support in media and major institutions you don't have support where it counts. 

 

You're losing. 

Edited 19 May, 2021 by hypochondriac

[supersonic]

20 hours ago, LiberalCommunist said:

People look to football as a means of escape, they want to switch off from their home life worries, work stresses & politics.

It would be far better for the governing body to end this with close season, rather than have the Fans (paying customers) end it next season.

And that will be the outcome. People are tired of this being forced down their throats. Enough already. 

Imagine how tired people are of still being treated differently because of the colour of their skin 

[SKD]

9 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

It's quite possibly no. 1, and the great thing is, when you see people booing, they are outing themselves for the rest of us all over the place. 

It really is Amazing that some people can’t see the fact people don’t have issues with anti racism campaigns (how many boo’d kick it out?), But people take issue with campaigns linked to violent, political groups, like BLM.

Replace the knee and BLM with something else and people won’t have an issue, as they never did before. 

[TWar]

People liked the old anti racist campaigns because they were easy to ignore. Kinda not the point. 

Also pretty weird people conflating being perceived as popular with being right. Either way, it's nothing new. Society gets slowly more accepting, you only have to look at history for that. But it generally isnt because the racists or homophobes get convinced, it's because they are old and they die out. Young people overwhelming support good causes. Again you can look at Corbyn voters for that if you like. We aren't losing because the old people crying about "woke", we are winning, thanks to time. A lot of them are covid deniers too, which doesn't help. 

Edited 20 May, 2021 by TWar

[SKD]

36 minutes ago, TWar said:

People liked the old anti racist campaigns because they were easy to ignore. Kinda not the point. 

Also pretty weird people conflating being perceived as popular with being right. Either way, it's nothing new. Society gets slowly more accepting, you only have to look at history for that. But it generally isnt because the racists or homophobes get convinced, it's because they are old and they die out. Young people overwhelming support good causes. Again you can look at Corbyn voters for that if you like. We aren't losing because the old people crying about "woke", we are winning, thanks to time. A lot of them are covid deniers too, which doesn't help. 

In fairness, other than a petty comment about booing from me (I’ll hold my hands up to that), going on a knee for 1 second is also pretty easy to ignore and wouldn’t have been mentioned or thought about, at all. 

Would wearing a ‘kick it out’ t-shirt before every game be any different? Handing out ‘kick it out’ t-shirts to fans before the game? Have kick it out sponsor on the back of every shirt? It’s all tokenism and the only way to combat racism is education. Taking a knee, is not educating anyone. 

What you are however still ignoring, is why they need to use a campaign which has links to (or as many see it having links to because of the name) a political organisation to make the point. If it was me and my campaign however innocent had any links to what many see as a bad organisation, I’d want to distance myself as much as possible. Not share the exact same name or carry out the same actions. 

Personally, the one campaign i seem to remember most, was the ‘racism just isn’t saintly’ (or something along those lines) from the early 00’s. The symbol was a white stick man shaking hands with a black stick man. That was something I could relate to. BLM and the violence and left wing politics seemingly attached to it, I cannot. 

[East Kent Saint]

1 hour ago, SKD said:

 

Replace the knee and BLM with something else and people won’t have an issue, as they never did before. 

Agree with this SKD !!