Saints/Burnley Comparisons

[SaintBobby]

8 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Aren't Brighton shite? Isn’t what Bielsa with a newly promoted team, and Smith with a nearly relegated team "obvious over performance"?

If the criteria is "do okay by not as good as other seasons"  then the Wolves manager is in with a shout.

You like Dyche, fine. He's a competent manager in the Big Sam mould, fine. I like him, a bit. But this ain't a vintage season for them. They're below us FFS.

We may be vociferously agreeing. I think he’s done a great job there, but has had better years. At his peak, he may have been my manager of the season. His squad is measurably worse than ours or Brighton’s or Leeds’, IMHO. 

[Turkish]

8 minutes ago, SaintBobby said:

We may be vociferously agreeing. I think he’s done a great job there, but has had better years. At his peak, he may have been my manager of the season. His squad is measurably worse than ours or Brighton’s or Leeds’, IMHO. 

Just out of interest which burnley players do you think would get in our team?

Edited 3 May, 2021 by Turkish

[Lighthouse]

6 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Just out of interest which burnley players do you think would get in our team?

I know you didn't ask me specifically but I'd have Pope, Mee, Tarkowski and probably McNeil over Redmond. Also if it's a squad game, I'd rather have J Rod and Vydra on the bench than Walcott and Obafemi.

[Turkish]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

I know you didn't ask me specifically but I'd have Pope, Mee, Tarkowski and probably McNeil over Redmond. Also if it's a squad game, I'd rather have J Rod and Vydra on the bench than Walcott and Obafemi.

I’d have Taylor over this season Bertrand and Wood over Adams too.

[danjosaint]

Have to agree thought Taylor looks decent player and quite easily replace Bertrand 

[egg]

44 minutes ago, danjosaint said:

Have to agree thought Taylor looks decent player and quite easily replace Bertrand 

Yep, he's looked good. As others have said, they've got a few lads I'd take. I like McNeil, and Tarkowski rather than Bednarek would be decent. 

[SaintBobby]

12 hours ago, Turkish said:

Just out of interest which burnley players do you think would get in our team?

Nick Pope clearly. Not wild about the rest. Barnes? Wood? Maybe. Other than Pope, there's no one who comes to mind who I immediately think "I wish they played for us". 

[saintwbu]

2 minutes ago, SaintBobby said:

Nick Pope clearly. Not wild about the rest. Barnes? Wood? Maybe. Other than Pope, there's no one who comes to mind who I immediately think "I wish they played for us". 

Dwight McNeil is a very good player, Tarkowski and Mee would definitely get in ahead of Bednarek for me. 

[Turkish]

Just now, SaintBobby said:

Nick Pope clearly. Not wild about the rest. Barnes? Wood? Maybe. Other than Pope, there's no one who comes to mind who I immediately think "I wish they played for us". 

It's not a question of wishing they played for us, it's if they're better than their peers in our team. I can think of at least 5 who would get in our first team that are part of this terrible Burnley side which are much worse squad than we have you are so quick to dismiss

[Turkish]

Just now, saintwbu said:

Dwight McNeil is a very good player, Tarkowski and Mee would definitely get in ahead of Bednarek for me. 

Agreed, 2 maybe all of those 3, plus Pope, Wood and Taylor would get into our team ahead of McCarthy/Foster, Bednarek, Bertrand, Redmond and Adams. 

[SaintBobby]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

It's not a question of wishing they played for us, it's if they're better than their peers in our team. I can think of at least 5 who would get in our first team that are part of this terrible Burnley side which are much worse squad than we have you are so quick to dismiss

Disagree....possibly 2 or 3 IMHO. I definitely wouldn't say "at least 5". Except Pope, I'd say most of the possible "transfers" into the Sainst team are very marginal. Whereas Ings and JWP, for example, walk straight into the Burnley team.  

[Turkish]

Just now, SaintBobby said:

Disagree....possibly 2 or 3 IMHO. I definitely wouldn't say "at least 5". Except Pope, I'd say most of the possible "transfers" into the Sainst team are very marginal. Whereas Ings and JWP, for example, walk straight into the Burnley team.  

Okay so you're saying 2 Saints players who definitely get in the Burnley team and 2 or 3 Burnley players who definitely get in the Saints team. Other than that not a lot of difference between them. Yet earlier you were banging on about how shite they were and Shaun Dyce is a magician for keeping them up. 

[TWar]

42 minutes ago, SaintBobby said:

Nick Pope clearly. Not wild about the rest. Barnes? Wood? Maybe. Other than Pope, there's no one who comes to mind who I immediately think "I wish they played for us". 

I'd have Dwight McNeil, Tarkowski and Pope. Combined team something like:

 

Pope

KWP Tark Vest Bertrand

JWP Romeu

Armstrong McNeil

Ings Adams

 

I suppose there is an argument for Wood/Barnes over Adams but honestly Burnley's 442 "chuck it in the box to the big lads" play style is not something we should employ and outside of that I'd have Che over both, plus he's like 5-7 years younger. Similarly I only like McNeil cause he is younger, his end product is on par with Redmond/Djenepo/Walcott.

Edited 4 May, 2021 by TWar

[The Cat]

45 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Agreed, 2 maybe all of those 3, plus Pope, Wood and Taylor would get into our team ahead of McCarthy/Foster, Bednarek, Bertrand, Redmond and Adams. 

In this case (which I agree with) that Burnley have at least 5 if not 6 better first team players than Saints, would it mean Ralph has done a better job than Dyche this season if we finish above them?

[JustinSFC]

Would take Pope and Wood but neither would come here unless they went down and in the summer both will have better offers than us.

[SaintBobby]

12 hours ago, The Cat said:

In this case (which I agree with) that Burnley have at least 5 if not 6 better first team players than Saints, would it mean Ralph has done a better job than Dyche this season if we finish above them?

On reflection, Ralph probably is Premier League manager of the season.

Not only does it look like he will keep us above the juggernaut known as Fulham.

But he also stands every chance of matching the mighty Burnley toe-to-toe, a majority of whose players would apparently walk into the Saints starting XI.

Props to the man.

Edited 4 May, 2021 by SaintBobby

[SaintBobby]

13 hours ago, Turkish said:

Okay so you're saying 2 Saints players who definitely get in the Burnley team and 2 or 3 Burnley players who definitely get in the Saints team. Other than that not a lot of difference between them. Yet earlier you were banging on about how shite they were and Shaun Dyce is a magician for keeping them up. 

A shedload of difference.

Ings and JWP are way, way better than their Burnley equivalents. No Burnley player is heads and shoulders above their Saints equivalent - with the possible excpetion of Pope. But upgrading your goalkeeper from a 7 to an 8 isn't a big deal, Upgrading your striker from a 6.5 to a 9 is.

In my view, only 1 Burnley player definitely gets in to the Saints team. Put Ings and JWP into the Burnley team though and you transform it. I think seveal other Saints players would make it too - KWP for example, Vestegard, Romeu, Armstronng are all very good shouts. Not absolute head and shoulders over their equivalents, but they edge it. If Walcott was at Burnley, he'd start, I fancy. 

Clearly, Burnley are the new Fulham.

[Turkish]

5 hours ago, SaintBobby said:

A shedload of difference.

Ings and JWP are way, way better than their Burnley equivalents. No Burnley player is heads and shoulders above their Saints equivalent - with the possible excpetion of Pope. But upgrading your goalkeeper from a 7 to an 8 isn't a big deal, Upgrading your striker from a 6.5 to a 9 is.

In my view, only 1 Burnley player definitely gets in to the Saints team. Put Ings and JWP into the Burnley team though and you transform it. I think seveal other Saints players would make it too - KWP for example, Vestegard, Romeu, Armstronng are all very good shouts. Not absolute head and shoulders over their equivalents, but they edge it. If Walcott was at Burnley, he'd start, I fancy. 

Clearly, Burnley are the new Fulham.

Well I think James Tarkowski is head and shoulders above any central defenders we’ve got and McNeil is head and shoulders above Redmond, Djenepo and Walcott. Then it’s arguable that Mee is better than our other centre backs, Charlie Taylor is certainly better than Bertrand this season. Wood, who has scored more league goals than Ings this season is head and shoulders above Adams and any of our other striking options apart from Ings. Game of opinions though I guess but you do seem to have a saints bias. Strange we’re so much better than them but only Only one point above them. Although strange to say Burnley are the new Fulham, Burnley have been a consistent premier league team for a few years, Fulham will go straight back down again, no comparison at all. 

Edited 5 May, 2021 by Turkish

[Lee On Solent Saint]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Well I think James Tarkowski is head and shoulders above any central defenders we’ve got and McNeil is head and shoulders above Redmond, Djenepo and Walcott. Then it’s arguable that Mee is better than our other centre backs, Charlie Taylor is certainly better than Bertrand this season. Wood, who has scored more league goals than Ings this season is head and shoulders above Adams and any of our other striking options apart from Ings. Game of opinions though I guess but you do seem to have a saints bias. Strange we’re so much better than them but only Only one point above them. Although strange to say Burnley are the new Fulham, Burnley have been a consistent premier league team for a few years, Fulham will go straight back down again, no comparison at all. 

Would take Mee and Tarkowski absolutely. Pope also, big upgrade and what we have in terms of keeping at the moment. 

[Turkish]

8 hours ago, SaintBobby said:

On reflection, Ralph probably is Premier League manager of the season.

Not only does it look like he will keep us above the juggernaut known as Fulham.

But he also stands every chance of matching the mighty Burnley toe-to-toe, a majority of whose players would apparently walk into the Saints starting XI.

Props to the man.

Just because you dont like the fact that another team near the bottom has a number of players better than us it doesn't make it incorrect. 

[SaintBobby]

58 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Just because you dont like the fact that another team near the bottom has a number of players better than us it doesn't make it incorrect. 

We get it. It’s fine. You think Burnley have a better first team than Saints. You therefore think it’s no great shakes that Dyche has managed to get about the same points haul as Saints.

Others - me included - think Burnley have a worse first team squad than Saints and Dyche has therefore done a fine job - yet again - in piloting them to safety.

[Turkish]

Just now, SaintBobby said:

We get it. It’s fine. You think Burnley have a better first team than Saints. You therefore think it’s no great shakes that Dyche has managed to get about the same points haul as Saints.

Others - me included - think Burnley have a worse first team squad than Saints and Dyche has therefore done a fine job - yet again - in piloting them to safety.

i didn't say that. I said far from being rubbish there are about 5 players in their first team better than ours. 

[SaintBobby]

3 hours ago, Turkish said:

i didn't say that. I said far from being rubbish there are about 5 players in their first team better than ours. 

Their other 6 starting XI players must be dire then for them not to be better than Saints.

[JustinSFC]

4 hours ago, Turkish said:

i didn't say that. I said far from being rubbish there are about 5 players in their first team better than ours. 

No way.

I'll probably be dry humped for this on here by the Ralph fanboys, but what I will say is Dyche is a much better manager than Ralph, tactically Ralph isn't even in the same zip code.

Last season, Dyche absolutely done Ralph tactically.

Dyche plays to the strengths of what he has which probably makes their players look better than ours.

It's not their players are better than ours, Dyche is just organisationally a better manager.

The football Burnley played v West Ham the other night would have hammered us about 5-0.

And this is coming from someone who can't stand Burnley.

[Chapel End]

1 hour ago, JustinSFC said:

No way.

I'll probably be dry humped for this on here by the Ralph fanboys, but what I will say is Dyche is a much better manager than Ralph, tactically Ralph isn't even in the same zip code.

Last season, Dyche absolutely done Ralph tactically.

Dyche plays to the strengths of what he has which probably makes their players look better than ours.

It's not their players are better than ours, Dyche is just organisationally a better manager.

The football Burnley played v West Ham the other night would have hammered us about 5-0.

And this is coming from someone who can't stand Burnley.

All about opinions i suppose especially as we beat them twice 

[OttawaSaint]

1 hour ago, JustinSFC said:

 

Last season, Dyche absolutely done Ralph tactically.

 

What about this season?

[S-Clarke]

I'd take James Tarkovski, he's a proper leader at the back and something we lack. Maybe McNeil, but he can be as inconsistent and 'blind ally' when he's off form. On his day he's better than our current options though. Charlie Taylor would fit well for us I think, he gives Burnley good attacking width from the left.

Woods - maybe, would give us a focal point option, but I'm just not sure he'd fit a high counter pressing style at all.  He's perfect for your ''get it long'' ''get it in the box' style.

[Billy the Kidd]

17 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

I'd take James Tarkovski, he's a proper leader at the back and something we lack. Maybe McNeil, but he can be as inconsistent and 'blind ally' when he's off form. On his day he's better than our current options though. Charlie Taylor would fit well for us I think, he gives Burnley good attacking width from the left.

Woods - maybe, would give us a focal point option, but I'm just not sure he'd fit a high counter pressing style at all.  He's perfect for your ''get it long'' ''get it in the box' style.

I agree with this, but whilst i dont like Woods and dont want to sign a player like him, the Leicester semi was crying out for someone like that in those last 10 mins. 

[SaintBobby]

In yet more evidence of the wealth of world class talent at Sean Dyche's disposal....they have just been spanked 4-0 at home to Leeds United. No obvious tactical errors in how Dyche set up the team. They're just pretty damned woeful.

I think I've only seen 7 or 8 Burnley matches this season, so maybe I haven't seen them at their best, but they look like real relegation fodder from what I have seen. I guess several clubs this season - Saints included -  are just glad that those bottom three teams have set the bar for staying in the division so pathetically low. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

46 minutes ago, SaintBobby said:

In yet more evidence of the wealth of world class talent at Sean Dyche's disposal....they have just been spanked 4-0 at home to Leeds United. No obvious tactical errors in how Dyche set up the team. They're just pretty damned woeful.

 

 

I didn’t see the game, but they can’t be as bad as we were against Leeds. 

[Billy the Kidd]

49 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 

I didn’t see the game, but they can’t be as bad as we were against Leeds. 

Well, an easy metric is they were 1 goal worse. And we had a goal disallowed in that one that could have easily been given on another day.

Still, I’m sure we can outdo Burnley on Tues - we dont want anyone taking our ‘we are the shittest’ badge.

[Lord Duckhunter]

17 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Well, an easy metric is they were 1 goal worse. And we had a goal disallowed in that one that could have easily been given on another day.

Still, I’m sure we can outdo Burnley on Tues - we dont want anyone taking our ‘we are the shittest’ badge.

It was one of the most half arsed, going through the motions performances I’ve had the misfortune to watch. 

[Billy the Kidd]

4 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It was one of the most half arsed, going through the motions performances I’ve had the misfortune to watch. 

2nd half for sure, 1st wasn’t anywhere near as bad as the 2nd. But yeah, games go for 90 mins.

[Micky]

7 hours ago, SaintBobby said:

In yet more evidence of the wealth of world class talent at Sean Dyche's disposal....they have just been spanked 4-0 at home to Leeds United. No obvious tactical errors in how Dyche set up the team. They're just pretty damned woeful.

I think I've only seen 7 or 8 Burnley matches this season, so maybe I haven't seen them at their best, but they look like real relegation fodder from what I have seen. I guess several clubs this season - Saints included -  are just glad that those bottom three teams have set the bar for staying in the division so pathetically low. 

As of today as little as 28 points will keep you in the Premier league.  Looking at the remaining fixtures for West Brom and Fulham it's conceivable that neither will pick up any more points this season. I think we sweated on 33 points for a long time, before getting 'safe'.  My god,  the bar is really low. 

[Piran]

33 minutes ago, Micky said:

As of today as little as 28 points will keep you in the Premier league.  Looking at the remaining fixtures for West Brom and Fulham it's conceivable that neither will pick up any more points this season. I think we sweated on 33 points for a long time, before getting 'safe'.  My god,  the bar is really low. 

As of today, as little as 27 points will keep you in the Premier League! (GD)

[Nordic Saint]

59 minutes ago, Micky said:

As of today as little as 28 points will keep you in the Premier league.  Looking at the remaining fixtures for West Brom and Fulham it's conceivable that neither will pick up any more points this season. I think we sweated on 33 points for a long time, before getting 'safe'.  My god,  the bar is really low. 

To be fair, we are solidly mid table with 43 points from 36 games. About as many points separate us from a European place as separate us from the relegation zone. We finished with only 39 points in 2019, 36 in 2018, and in 2017 we finished 8th with 46 points.  We'll finish above Burnley and we'll also be the top south coast team again. 

The Premier League is the toughest league in the world and it's no surprise that 2 Premier League teams are in the Champions League final.  It is very difficult for newly promoted Championship teams to compete in it unless they are a very big club like Leeds with a lot of financial muscle. 

Edited 15 May, 2021 by Nordic Saint

[Lighthouse]

8 hours ago, SaintBobby said:

In yet more evidence of the wealth of world class talent at Sean Dyche's disposal....they have just been spanked 4-0 at home to Leeds United. No obvious tactical errors in how Dyche set up the team. They're just pretty damned woeful.

I think I've only seen 7 or 8 Burnley matches this season, so maybe I haven't seen them at their best, but they look like real relegation fodder from what I have seen. I guess several clubs this season - Saints included -  are just glad that those bottom three teams have set the bar for staying in the division so pathetically low. 

I have to say, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone using a 4-0 home defeat to attempt to prove a manager’s prowess before. I can’t see this as anything other than a bad day at work for all concerned and a rather insipid reflection of where they are in the table.

[SaintBobby]

12 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I have to say, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone using a 4-0 home defeat to attempt to prove a manager’s prowess before. I can’t see this as anything other than a bad day at work for all concerned and a rather insipid reflection of where they are in the table.

His team are useless. I’m amazed they’re safe tbh. Obviously others think if we only had 6 of their players, we would have beaten Fulham more handsomely and would presumably now be chasing a Champions League place. The mind boggles . Keeping that Burnley shower of shite in the top flight is remarkable. Probably worthy of being the 3rd best manager in the division.

[Lord Duckhunter]

23 minutes ago, SaintBobby said:

Who on Earth claimed that we’d be chasing champions league place with some Burnley players

 

Edited 15 May, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[SaintBobby]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Who on Earth claimed that we’d be chasing champions league place with some Burnley players

 

Well someone claimed at least 5 or 6 Burnley players would walk straight into the Saints starting eleven. Combine that with what we already have (our best 5 or 6 players, presumably) and you’re surely putting meaningful points on the board. You’d only need 10-12 more points on what Saints currently have (a mere 20-25% uplift) for us to be in the race for CL spots...right now.
 

Given how good those Burnley players are - the ones who would walk into our starting team - I’d have thought that was a very modest aspiration, no?

[Lord Duckhunter]

7 hours ago, SaintBobby said:

Well someone claimed at least 5 or 6 Burnley players would walk straight into the Saints starting eleven. Combine that with what we already have (our best 5 or 6 players, presumably) and you’re surely putting meaningful points on the board. You’d only need 10-12 more points on what Saints currently have (a mere 20-25% uplift) for us to be in the race for CL spots...right now.
 

Given how good those Burnley players are - the ones who would walk into our starting team - I’d have thought that was a very modest aspiration, no?

So you made it up. 

[Lighthouse]

7 hours ago, SaintBobby said:

You’d only need 10-12 more points on what Saints currently have (a mere 20-25% uplift) for us to be in the race for CL spots...right now.

We’re 21 points off Chelsea in 4th, not 10-12. 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

11 hours ago, SaintBobby said:

His team are useless. I’m amazed they’re safe tbh. Obviously others think if we only had 6 of their players, we would have beaten Fulham more handsomely and would presumably now be chasing a Champions League place. The mind boggles . Keeping that Burnley shower of shite in the top flight is remarkable. Probably worthy of being the 3rd best manager in the division.

Even with teams below us in the table, there will always be players that could be signed that would improve our squad. Pretty sure nobody would argue that signing Pope would be a huge upgrade on our two keepers. Likewise, with Tarkowoski signing too. Let's not forget that we as a team, nearly always struggle against Burnley.

[The Cat]

8 hours ago, SaintBobby said:

Well someone claimed at least 5 or 6 Burnley players would walk straight into the Saints starting eleven. Combine that with what we already have (our best 5 or 6 players, presumably) and you’re surely putting meaningful points on the board. You’d only need 10-12 more points on what Saints currently have (a mere 20-25% uplift) for us to be in the race for CL spots...right now.
 

Given how good those Burnley players are - the ones who would walk into our starting team - I’d have thought that was a very modest aspiration, no?

Our squad would be massively upgraded with 5 or 6 of their players. Whether they would start every match is debatable although Pope, Tarkowski and Taylor would walk in to the first team.

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, The Cat said:

Our squad would be massively upgraded with 5 or 6 of their players. Whether they would start every match is debatable although Pope, Tarkowski and Taylor would walk in to the first team.

McNeil and Wood do as well ahead of Redmond and Adams IMO. Saint Bobby seems to be very upset that another team has a few players better than ours on their positions. 

[Matthew Le God]

23 minutes ago, The Cat said:

Pope, Tarkowski and Taylor would walk in to the first team.

Taylor is not better than Bertrand. Bertrand remains a very good player, as the media links he has had to leaving us for Leicester, Arsenal, AC Milan and Man City suggest. He isn't leaving us to go to a weaker team, he'll be moving to a better team so isn't on the decline that some people think he is. It is irrelevant that Bertrand is leaving in the summer to the comparison, the comparison should be first XI vs first XI in the 2020/21 season. We don't yet know who our left back next season is for a comparison to be made with Taylor.

Edited 16 May, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[Lord Duckhunter]

Yep, agree.

The whole thread is pointless. We don’t know who our keeper is next season, it maybe Allison or Pickford. Therefore we can’t say pope would get in nets. We don’t know our team or there’s and therefore can’t speculate. Close the thread...l

[Matthew Le God]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

We don’t know who our keeper is next season, it maybe Allison or Pickford. Therefore we can’t say pope would get in nets. We don’t know our team or there’s and therefore can’t speculate. Close the thread...l

You have completely missed the point. If we are comparing squad then you compare squads in the current season, not now vs the future when players have left in the summer. Of course Taylor is better than having no left back, but for the majority of the season Bertrand was our left back and he is better than Taylor.

Edited 16 May, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[GarrettIvo]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 

The whole thread is pointless. 

It really really is.

[Lord Duckhunter]

6 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

You have completely missed the point. If we are comparing squad then you compare squads in the current season, not now vs the future when players have left in the summer. Of course Taylor is better than having no left back, but for the majority of the season Bertrand was our left back and he is better than Taylor.

Sorry, I didn’t realise there were rules around picking hypothetical teams. Are they published anywhere, I wouldn’t want to make the same mistake again.