Plan B

[Nemi]

Hasenhuttl’s getting tonnes of criticism at the moment for not having a plan b. Problem I see though is the types of player we have in the squad are so one-dimensional is it even possible for us to have a plan b - especially when we’re chasing a lead? Our attackers are so similar (pacey, a few tricks, no end product) how do we get back in a game when we have no players who offer something different?   
 

Without a truly creative passer (something like Tadic) what possibly can we change mid-game when chasing a lead? Because when I look at the bench I don’t see anyone making an impact at the moment.

[Saint Billy]

I'm not sure we even have a plan A now.

I agree about the quality of the squad and bench, but this is the same squad that was going great guns early season apart from Romeu,
Romeu has proven to be a significant loss as he gave that extra protection to our back line and added some grit in midfield, but surely it cant all be down to missing one player.

Personally, I think the squad has run out of steam due to the demands of the high press, fitness levels have dropped and we are not maintaining the format that gave us some success early on. When we slow down we are found out as there is not enough quality there to adopt an alternative way of playing.
 

 

[S-Clarke]

Plan A, B, C, D etc is overcooked in football. Whenever something doesn't work, you're then often labelled as not having a Plan B. I think we have lots of plans to be honest, we shuffle things around during games and in different matches,  but we have one philosophy - that's the key, our philosophy is clear in the approach we play. And you're not going to get clubs with two philosophy's as that won't work.

People will rightly argue that the philosophy isn't working at all, and they'd be right - but there's evidence to suggest that it did and does work, as long as you have the squad to deliver it - whether that's quality, depth or luck with injuries etc.

I'd say a lack of 'Plan B' probably translates to having a lack of depth and quality in the depth to make those positive changes.

Edited 22 April, 2021 by S-Clarke

[Nemi]

15 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

I'm not sure we even have a plan A now.

I agree about the quality of the squad and bench, but this is the same squad that was going great guns early season apart from Romeu,
Romeu has proven to be a significant loss as he gave that extra protection to our back line and added some grit in midfield, but surely it cant all be down to missing one player.

Personally, I think the squad has run out of steam due to the demands of the high press, fitness levels have dropped and we are not maintaining the format that gave us some success early on. When we slow down we are found out as there is not enough quality there to adopt an alternative way of playing.
 

 

Even when we were winning games earlier we played basically the same way as we did v Spurs yesterday. Difference is when we were doing well we took our early chances and usually it was enough to see the game out. But even in that purple patch we rarely came back and scored a late goal to grab a draw or a win, with or without players like Romeu in the team.

 

 

 

[Nemi]

9 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Plan A, B, C, D etc is overcooked in football. Whenever something doesn't work, you're then often labelled as not having a Plan B. I think we have lots of plans to be honest, we shuffle things around during games and in different matches,  but we have one philosophy - that's the key, our philosophy is clear in the approach we play. And you're not going to get clubs with two philosophy's as that won't work.

People will rightly argue that the philosophy isn't working at all, and they'd be right - but there's evidence to suggest that it did and does work, as long as you have the squad to deliver it - whether that's quality, depth or luck with injuries etc.

I'd say a lack of 'Plan B' probably translates to having a lack of depth and quality in the depth to make those positive changes.

In terms of attacking depth I wouldn’t say it’s even that bad. We have Walcott, Tella, Redmond, Djenepo but they all offer the same thing. We have Minamino and Armstrong too, but again they’re pretty similar players.  Even in 14/15 or depth wasn’t that great. Difference is the quality of course, but we had also players who could offer something different to the one they were replacing.

We can’t blame Ralph for not making changes the tactics mid-game to affect something, because we just don’t have the players to do it. They’re all too similar - we just have to hope one can come up with a moment of individual quality (which is of course rare in itself).

 

[S-Clarke]

3 minutes ago, Nemi said:

In terms of attacking depth I wouldn’t say it’s even that bad. We have Walcott, Tella, Redmond, Djenepo but they all offer the same thing. We have Minamino and Armstrong too, but again they’re pretty similar players.  Even in 14/15 or depth wasn’t that great. Difference is the quality of course, but we had also players who could offer something different to the one they were replacing.

We can’t blame Ralph for not making changes the tactics mid-game to affect something, because we just don’t have the players to do it. They’re all too similar - we just have to hope one can come up with a moment of individual quality (which is of course rare in itself).

 

I think the general consensus is that the quality isn't really there, that's the problem. If you look at it Mane was a similar style of player to Tella/Moussa etc - but he's just light years ahead of them. Tadic was a similarish type of player to Minamino and maybe Armstrong, but again...light years ahead in quality. That's the main difference for me, the squad doesn't have the quality we had under Koeman and I don't think we should be expecting similar results, to be honest.

Now, if Ralph had been given £200m over his 5 transfer windows to shape this side then I'd have massive questions right now, but he hasn't had that...and for that reason that's why I'm with you in that it's hard to throw the lack of a plan at him.

[Mr X]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

I think the general consensus is that the quality isn't really there, that's the problem. If you look at it Mane was a similar style of player to Tella/Moussa etc - but he's just light years ahead of them. Tadic was a similarish type of player to Minamino and maybe Armstrong, but again...light years ahead in quality. That's the main difference for me, the squad doesn't have the quality we had under Koeman and I don't think we should be expecting similar results, to be honest.

Now, if Ralph had been given £200m over his 5 transfer windows to shape this side then I'd have massive questions right now, but he hasn't had that...and for that reason that's why I'm with you in that it's hard to throw the lack of a plan at him.

So you have no massive questions over 7 points out of a possible 45 points on offer because he hasn't been handed a 200 million war chest & noone could possibly have got any more points with this group of players? 🤦‍♂️

[Nemi]

59 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I think the general consensus is that the quality isn't really there, that's the problem. If you look at it Mane was a similar style of player to Tella/Moussa etc - but he's just light years ahead of them. Tadic was a similarish type of player to Minamino and maybe Armstrong, but again...light years ahead in quality. That's the main difference for me, the squad doesn't have the quality we had under Koeman and I don't think we should be expecting similar results, to be honest.

Now, if Ralph had been given £200m over his 5 transfer windows to shape this side then I'd have massive questions right now, but he hasn't had that...and for that reason that's why I'm with you in that it's hard to throw the lack of a plan at him.

The only place I’d diverge from what you’ve said is that we’re really lacking a Tadic style player - doesn’t even have to be as good, just someone who tries something different to what we offer now. For all Armstrong’s qualities a defence splitting pass just isn’t one of them. Usually our one last chance in a game comes from him banging one against the crossbar from range but I can’t really ever remember a time he’s opened up an opposition’s defence. I’ve not seen enough from Minamino to judge but again I feel his strengths lie in dribbling and shooting over passing. We are really lacking someone who can do what Tadic did even if the quality is worse - at least we’d have the chance to try something different. For that reason I think we’re forced to rely on with shots from range or getting crosses in the box, but we don’t really have someone dominant enough to win a header. This season especially, even in our good period of form, the sort of goals we scored are quite similar. Redmond is the only player I can remember who has really opened up a defence with a pass recently - but he still rarely attempts it.

Apart from the obvious quality over our current players, Tadic, Pelle, Long, Mane, Davis even JWP all did something a little different to one another so under Koeman he could change it up a bit more. Unfortunately Hasenhuttl’s hands are tied. Hopefully he can have the chance to at least diversify the squad a bit, in terms of what sort of player we have.

[Nemi]

3 minutes ago, Mr X said:

So you have no massive questions over 7 points out of a possible 45 points on offer because he hasn't been handed a 200 million war chest & noone could possibly have got any more points with this group of players? 🤦‍♂️

They’re not saying that at all

[supersonic]

What is this Plan B you talk about? If you  could let Ralph know there is such thing that'll be great, thanks 

[Dell McDellFace]

If 'plan A' is the high press, then it worked well for us and to some extent still does - like in the first half against Tottenham. It's not so much that teams have worked out how to play against us, but with games coming thick and fast it's not sustainable. We managed it for a half and then started to look really tired and they took control. Danny Ings may be a bit injury prone, but he would probably not be so much if he didn't do so much chasing down off the ball, in both attack and defence. With a small squad, players are having to play through minor injuries or out of their favoured position.

It may not be a popular opinion, but my view is that the same squad and manager would be competitive again, playing in the same way after a pre-season break. But the same thing would no doubt happen, we'd have a good run, get exhausted, pick up a few injuries and have a bad run.

I also quite like the plan B that we've seen over the last couple of games of sticking Vestergaard up front and slinging high balls to him. It's something that Chris Nicholl used to do to good effect. Although doing it so late in the game can be perceived as desperation.

[Monk]

2 hours ago, Saint Billy said:

I'm not sure we even have a plan A now.

I agree about the quality of the squad and bench, but this is the same squad that was going great guns early season apart from Romeu,
Romeu has proven to be a significant loss as he gave that extra protection to our back line and added some grit in midfield, but surely it cant all be down to missing one player.

Personally, I think the squad has run out of steam due to the demands of the high press, fitness levels have dropped and we are not maintaining the format that gave us some success early on. When we slow down we are found out as there is not enough quality there to adopt an alternative way of playing.
 

 

Have to agree with this, in my opinion, if you have a playing philosophy you stick to it, that's your plan A, B and C. 

 

Problem with Ralph is his philosophy and use of the 4-2-2-2 is so ineffective. 

[MAY-Z]

To me we seem quite similar to Sheffield United of last season i to this season.

 

they had a system that was a bit different and worked well and eventually oppositions started to adapt to it and they couldn’t find another way of playing.

 

Where we got extremely lucky was that our good burst of form spread over 2 seasons so we didn’t have any real  relegation fears, next season however....

[Saint Fan CaM]

There’s a stat that’s been produced showing how in a number of games the oppositions number of passes before interception increases dramatically in the second half and this has led to us losing games. It was the same in the Spurs game. There’s a reason for that - basically the players stop the pack style press...possibly to conserve energy...and the result is we play deeper, more defensively in front our pen area and allow more pressing time for the opposing team. Then we go behind and suddenly the press and urgency return.

I’ve also noticed that we triangulate passing very well to play out of defensive positions, but often fail to do that in front of goal. We rely far too much on individual player ‘skill’ to open defences, cutting in from the flanks more often than not. Other than perhaps Ings, we don’t have that level of quality in the squad.  This comes down to poor coaching...don’t they watch how other teams operate successfully and put the lessons into training?

In my view if we were to solve the two above issues we would start seeing better results...I don’t necessarily think wholesale changes are needed to the squad. The only other possible issue is the 4222 formation, which does not suit a wing back style of play well, even with DCM’s like JWP to run everywhere to provide cover.

[Rebel]

Plan A doesn't seem to be working - so we definately need a Plan B - if not a new Plan A.  

The biggest problem we have is the squad is not deep enough - and what do we have is very unbalanced.

Plan B could be as simple as going from a 4-2-2-2 to 4-3-2-1/4-3-1-2 to hold a lead or be less open against one of the top teams or even in the second half of a game and playing on the break a bit more  - but at the moment we don't have really have a third CM to do that (Janketwitz aside) with Romeu and Smallbone being injured (and Slattery out on loan/injured).

As it is we don't really have enough fit players to play the Plan A 4-2-2-2 properly as we don't have cover for Romeu in the defensive midfield role for one thing - or either of the attacking fullbacks if they get injured.  I see JWP and Diallo as more of the box-to-box role and too similar to play together in the middle when we are under pressure.  We probably also need another AM/No.10 like Armstrong as well - which is why we brought in Minamino to provide that on the left so I don't know why we don't play him.

Now that Salisu is matchfit I'd like to see us try 3-4-1-2 or  3-4-2-1 with Armstrong and/or Minamino in the AM roles. More so if KWP or Bertrand are out injured.

[Wurzel]

Maybe we have it the wrong way round. Maybe Plan B should be defend deeper for the first hour and play the high press for final 30 minutes as the opposition tire.

Then again that would require keeping a clean sheet for those first 60 minutes. Ok What's Plan C? How about fresh legs off the bench after 60 minutes instead of 85?

[SKD]

On 22/04/2021 at 22:14, Monk said:

Have to agree with this, in my opinion, if you have a playing philosophy you stick to it, that's your plan A, B and C. 

 

Problem with Ralph is his philosophy and use of the 4-2-2-2 is so ineffective. 

Have to say I disagree with this point. There has to be some form of flexibility. For example, going down to 10 men against United - shut up shop rather than continuing with your wreck less attacking approach. 

His in game management is appalling, to say the least. 

Agree with the formation being ineffective. Too easily out numbered and out muscled in the middle of the park. 

[Dell McDellFace]

Listening to Graham Souness after the Arsenal v Everton game last night, I agree with him. Premiere League football has become very one-dimensional, predictable and stagnant. It's not just the lack of crowds that is making it sterile and as a marketable product (I hate that word ever since Rupert Lowe used it to describe football) that is sold around the world, the value is rapidly diminishing. As Souness said - you might as well watch French football.

I think there is an opportunity for a club to be brave and break the predictability - e.g. (1) plan to make 3 substitutions at half time so that 6 of the squad know that they only have to keep going for 45 minutes and can run themselves ragged; (2) pull everyone back for a corner then as it's about to be taken have 3 sprint out in the hope of making a break and catching the opposition out (3) offer players bonuses on the ratio of forward passes to backward passes they make and for staying on their feet when fouled (if possible)

Innovate, take a gamble. They won't always come off, but what they might do is negate the effect of opposing teams studying hours of footage of how you set out in order to stifle creativity - which is what's at the heart of sterile modern football.

[supersonic]

With us being all but safe, now's the time to give the fringe Ayers a run out and see what they are like with some decent PL game time.

Tella will get games, which is great.

But let's play the likes of Salisu, Jankewitz, Chauke, Ferry, N'Lundulu more often, they aren't going to get any better sitting on the bench. 

But then again, we have a manager who simply refuses to change anything so no chance of that happening 

[Barsiem]

12 hours ago, SKD said:

Have to say I disagree with this point. There has to be some form of flexibility. For example, going down to 10 men against United - shut up shop rather than continuing with your wreck less attacking approach. 

His in game management is appalling, to say the least. 

Agree with the formation being ineffective. Too easily out numbered and out muscled in the middle of the park. 

The best example for me was the Brighton game.  We went in at half time level and in the ascendency.  Potter changed formation at half time and Brighton bossed the game in the second half.  I get what people are saying about lack of quality but are we really saying we have less than Brighton FFS.... Ralph needs to be able to switch to another style and react

[Nemi]

2 hours ago, Barsiem said:

 I get what people are saying about lack of quality but are we really saying we have less than Brighton FFS.... Ralph needs to be able to switch to another style and react

I would quite honestly, if I was a Brighton fan there wouldn’t be many Saints players I’d want in their team.