European League

[JustinSFC]

4 minutes ago, igsey said:

Disagree, Spurs are £1bn in debt, more than any of the other 11 that have signed up. They need money. I would not be at all surprised if they built their new stadium with this Super League precisely in mind.

That's one way of looking at it of course.

The reality is, in THAT group of clubs they're the Leicester city or Everton.

If the ESL one day say "nah we don't want you in our little club anymore" and Spurs have already been chucked out of the league, there's no recourse.

I don't think the 'big 6' will be thrown out in any case, there's too much involved.

But if you're Daniel Levy, you've got to consider everything including ramifications.

But you have a valid point.
 

[CB Fry]

7 minutes ago, igsey said:

Disagree, Spurs are £1bn in debt, more than any of the other 11 that have signed up. They need money. I would not be at all surprised if they built their new stadium with this Super League precisely in mind.

But the Super League is still a gamble for them.

It's not they are 100% definitely going to get the £xxxx gazillion they think they're all going to get.

[Wurzel]

Great idea posted by someone on BBC website which unfortunately we can file under "Ain't gonna happen"
 

Quote

Rich: If Perez is worried about uncompetitive CL group games, give more of the money to the smaller clubs to make them able to compete with the 'powers'. Thought not...

 

[edprice1984]

Apologies for the rambling thoughts below. Just a few initial ideas on how Governments and FA's can meaningfully target the clubs concerned:

The only way to really target the ESL and the owners is through monetary means and targeting the players. Bans from Internationals and all other domestic competitions. Windfall taxes, extra Image Rights taxation or additional rate taxation on all salaries earned (not just over the current threshold) when playing for these clubs. 

The current Broadcasters to sue and reclaim revenues from the clubs - Governments could even freeze assets if they wanted to. 

I suspect the 14 other Premier League clubs will threaten expulsion while the FA will ban all the players from representing England for example. 

 

[wild-saint]

34 minutes ago, Alanh said:

So the 12 founders want more and importantly, secured income from a European competition, but also to play in their own national leagues so that they can continue to win trophies and have enough games to play.  In the Uk the PL need them to participate so that they have as strong a product as possible to sell to TV around the world.  The big issue is that the guaranteed revenue that they get from the ESL can then be spent on their squad for the PL which brings even more financial distortion than exists at present.  I think the best solution is:

1. Let them go and create this new league.

2. Let them remain in the PL

3. Implement a wage  / spending cap in the PL for all teams which their PL squad has to ahere to.  They can then decide which players they want to include in their PL squad.

4. Work with UEFA to create a European competition which rivals the ESL and is open (to qualification through national league or cup success) to any club which is not part of the ESL.  That competition would still be attractive as it would include the big German teams, PSG, Napoli, Porto Galatasary, etc as well as the non big 6 UK teams.

This will allow their owners to make loads of money, which they seem to want, but they won't be able to use it to distort competition in the PL, and the winners of the PL (now on a more level financial playing field) get European competition in the next season.

Personally, I have no interest in watching saints play a B team from one of the SL teams. For that reason Im out.

[Charlie Wayman]

The people behind this (mostly Yanks) have a global perspective. Their closed shop model is no different to NFL and Formula 1. What they want is a high quality circus - no doubt soon to be called a World Series - that travels the world plying its trade wherever the money rolls in to pay for it, indifferent to moral constraints like human rights abuses and authoritarian regimes.

Expect game to be played in US, China, Russia and so on in future as well as in Europe. They won't stop at Europe so we can expect South American teams to join in the future adding Brazil and Mexico to the mix.

The real sadness is that none of this is boycotted by fans who otherwise take the moral high ground, happy to watch Lewis Hamilton win every race without much competition. Does anybody talk about Formula 3 any more?

[Monk]

Anyone seen that **** Kenwyne Jones giving his sixpence on Twitter. The fucking irony. 

[Fan The Flames]

8 minutes ago, Monk said:

Anyone seen that **** Kenwyne Jones giving his sixpence on Twitter. The fucking irony. 

At least he had the decency to submit a transfer request. Instead of an out of the blue announcement that he was going to play for Sunderland on Wednesday's and Southampton at the weekend.

[skintsaint]

1 hour ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Expect game to be played in US, China, Russia and so on in future as well as in Europe.

Well I imagine the preseason friendlies around the world between the big clubs was just a tester to see what the demand was. Full houses in most stadiums was the answer. Not sure it will be interesting enough for non football fans to turn up regularly though.

[skintsaint]

Also I think it is pathetic that the top 6 clubs/chairmans are leaving their managers to speak about this situation, rather than themselves taking the Q&As.

 

Edited 20 April, 2021 by skintsaint

[Useful Idiot]

If the breakaway clubs are really worried about player wages being unsustainable, they should look at introducing a player wage cap instead of just pushing wages higher by chasing bigger media deals. Something like 3 times the average national yearly wage per week would be a fair maximum. The big problem is that the richest clubs have been willing to pay wages that are unsustainable and have inflated the wage bills for everyone else so now even below average Premier League players are paid ridiculous sums.

[Mystic Force]

They clearly are after an American franchise system, so I am not sure it is doomed to fail.

Best EPL solution schedule enough games mid week to f up their plans. After all other completions schedule by agreement. What they going to do with a clash? I gave up watching European competitions a long time ago, as it does not interest me one bit. Being the also rans will get old pretty quick for some of these and the weaker will get tossed out for expansion in other markets. It will probably survive make money and the rest of us will have to adjust to paying lower wages. after all the total amount and ability of talent is not corolated to league income, just its price.

Now the one bit I am not sure of is who is going to be forking over even more money to these people, basically you have to go back to the same group of people and ask them for additional money, not sure thats going to work. 

 

If you need a salary cap and cannot make it go down, find whoever is the most expensive now and say it is that, it will not help now, but it does stop it getting worse.

Edited 20 April, 2021 by Mystic Force

[tajjuk]

1 hour ago, Wurzel said:

Great idea posted by someone on BBC website which unfortunately we can file under "Ain't gonna happen"
 

 

Well this is the thing, you want more people to watch Serie A, La Liga, the Bundesliga etc. and more Champions league group games, then they have to get better at the sharing the money around, to increase the level of competition.

People are bored of those leagues because the same 1-3 teams always win it and win almost every game, even in their poor years as Barca and Real are the moment, they are still winning the league. 

Money also has to go into those lesser leagues (Holland, Belgium, Portugal, etc.), not just to the top teams, so that you don't get situations like Celtic/Rangers/Ajax etc. winning every year because they qualify for the champions league and then have more budget than anyone else in their league. IIRC When Ajax got the semi-final of the CL, their turnover was 20 times the bottom place team in their league, 20 times, that is how much the CL money distorts these lower teams. 

What they continue to not get is the world watches the PL because it's more competitive than most other major leagues across the world, because there are multiple big clubs but also because the money gets spread out fairly throughout all 20 teams. 

Its actually the CL money that further distorts our league because it gives those clubs in it like another like £50-60 million plus and more profile (so more money) over other PL teams. 

Sharing the money out more and having less of it concentrated at the top (and this counts for the PL and the leagues below as well), creates more competition and better quality. 

PL teams are more tested every week than Barca or Real or Juve are, because they bottom placed team in our league gets handed like £100 million in TV money, whereas the bottom placed team in Spain or whatever probably has like a 10th of the budget of Real or Barca. 

But they don't really want more quality, if they did they Spurs and Arsenal wouldn't have been invited in, they are midtable level teams at the moment quality wise and Arsenal have been that for like 3 seasons and neither is going to turn into clubs able to challenge the Bayerns or Man Citys for ages, Arsenal would lose almost every game in this new league. 

 

Edited 20 April, 2021 by tajjuk

[Alanh]

7 minutes ago, Mystic Force said:

They clearly are after an American franchise system, so I am not sure it is doomed to fail.

Best EPL solution schedule enough games mid week to f up their plans. After all other completions schedule by agreement. What they going to do with a clash? I gave up watching European competitions a long time ago, as it does not interest me one bit. Being the also rans will get old pretty quick for some of these and the weaker will get tossed out for expansion in other markets. It will probably survive make money and the rest of us will have to adjust to paying lower wages. after all the total amount and ability of talent is not corolated to league income, just its price.

Now the one bit I am not sure of is who is going to be forking over even more money to these people, basically you have to go back to the same group of people and ask them for additional money, not sure thats going to work. 

 

If you need a salary cap and cannot make it go down, find whoever is the most expensive now and say it is that, it will not help now, but it does stop it getting worse.

It's not really more money.  The CL already generates the sort of money that they are quoting for the new ESL through TV rights and sponsorship, but the big teams don't think that they get a big enough share of the pot.  The big issue is the closed shop idea which means that they secure that income regardless of league form and bring that increased spending power back to their national leagues thus distorting the finances of the haves and have nots still further. 

[skintsaint]

[saintwbu]

2 hours ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

I wonder if that is Chelsea and Man City? I have just been reading an article that they were reluctant to join. It also said Tuchel would never be keen for an ESL either.

That would be my guess too - both clubs, despite being ‘money clubs’ have actually invested into their local area and done some good over the years, they’re not the same as the other 4.

[JustinSFC]

18 minutes ago, saintwbu said:

That would be my guess too - both clubs, despite being ‘money clubs’ have actually invested into their local area and done some good over the years, they’re not the same as the other 4.

That's seriously naive.

They're all exactly same.

Cash is king.

Edited 20 April, 2021 by JustinSFC

[Turkish]

3 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

It makes a difference to Saints ability to pay current contracts. Obligation to pay them even if our income drops significantly with small PL TV deals in the future.

so will every one elses.

[saintwbu]

13 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

That's seriously naive.

They're all exactly same.

Cash is king.

Tottenham and Liverpool both furloughed staff at the start of the pandemic whilst City and particularly Chelsea gave up facilities to the NHS and donated in numerous ways. They’re definitely not all ‘exactly the same’, but yes cash is still king to all of them. There are plenty of huge businesses in the world, some are a lot worse than others in terms of their behaviour, it’s no different here. If there’s two out of the 6 who aren’t fully into this, then my money would definitely be on City and Chelsea. 

[Fan The Flames]

2 minutes ago, saintwbu said:

Tottenham and Liverpool both furloughed staff at the start of the pandemic whilst City and particularly Chelsea gave up facilities to the NHS and donated in numerous ways. They’re definitely not all ‘exactly the same’, but yes cash is still king to all of them. There are plenty of huge businesses in the world, some are a lot worse than others in terms of their behaviour, it’s no different here. If there’s two out of the 6 who aren’t fully into this, then my money would definitely be on City and Chelsea. 

and they are the two that haven't got American owners.

[badgerx16]

 

[Fan The Flames]

oh no this will wind the 'stop the count' haters right up.

[badgerx16]

Regarding the proposed women's equivalent;

"

In the assumption that the women's league equivalent would include the same 12 founding clubs, it would be a travesty without European giants Lyon - who picked up a fifth Champions League title in a row last year - and Wolfsburg, who have appeared in five of the last eight finals, winning two.

Liverpool, whose women's side currently compete in the domestic second tier, and Tottenham, who were only promoted to the Women's Super League in 2019, would look very out of place among Europe's supposed elite.

There would also likely be animosity towards Real Madrid, a women's team only formed last year; Manchester United, who were created in 2018; and the inclusion of two Italian sides despite the nation having never previously had any representation in a Women's Champions League final."

 

 

[Jimmy_D]

They really didn't talk to their own managers and players before this did they?

I've seen Klopp, Guardiola, Milner and Rashford all speaking out against it so far.

[badgerx16]

Bayern have ruled out any involvement.

[igsey]

Not going to be much of a "Super League" without any German teams in it, never mind Ajax, Porto, PSG.

[JustinSFC]

Was just confirmed by crook on TS it is Levy who doesn't like it. 

Described as being "uncomfortable in his chair" in the last 24hrs.

[DT]

If they want to impose this starting next season it may mean no relegation this season from the Prem. Which would be very weird. But the legal battles will go on for months/years, so it's not going to happen, in my view. And shouldn't.

[Matthew Le God]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

so will every one elses.

That doesn't help when the bank calls.

"But sir... everyone else has the same problem"

[saint1977]

The Indy reckons it knows where the Premier League driving force is and was beyond the failed Project Big Picture: For all his billions, John Henry is poorer than any of us imagined (msn.com)

Man U fans had it right with the Green & Gold protests, they could probably see the Glazers' would be involved in something like this, partially driven by all of the debt they loaded onto the club.

Real and Barca have been run appallingly for years, can see their catalyst. City IMO have actually got more to lose from an ESL, they have European football by the balls financially. Could dominate for years whereas Barca were looking in the bargain bins. If the players aren't onside and actively opposing, which certainly the domestic ones are, the whole project is a bit sunk. 

[Fan The Flames]

16 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

That doesn't help when the bank calls.

"But sir... everyone else has the same problem"

What happens if we go down and stay down, or if the tv deal is considerably smaller than the last one, or if Sky goes bust, or if the top six clubs leave. 

An organisation like ours should have plans in place to mitigate. 

[Baird of the land]

Disappointing to see Villa CEO clearly has zero gumption

"What we need to find is a way to enable these two tournaments to thrive and they won’t be better off without those clubs," said Purslow.

[revolution saint]

4 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

The people behind this (mostly Yanks) have a global perspective. Their closed shop model is no different to NFL and Formula 1. What they want is a high quality circus - no doubt soon to be called a World Series - that travels the world plying its trade wherever the money rolls in to pay for it, indifferent to moral constraints like human rights abuses and authoritarian regimes.

Expect game to be played in US, China, Russia and so on in future as well as in Europe. They won't stop at Europe so we can expect South American teams to join in the future adding Brazil and Mexico to the mix.

The real sadness is that none of this is boycotted by fans who otherwise take the moral high ground, happy to watch Lewis Hamilton win every race without much competition. Does anybody talk about Formula 3 any more?

As I understand it all the US sports within a closed system also have mechanisms in place to ensure competition and prevent teams from becoming all powerful - things like the draft system.  There's nothing being talked about like that (at least at the moment).  This is just a pure unadulterated greed. 

Agree with your points although I'm loathe to criticise fans on this.  It's not their fault and the vast majority oppose it.  Sure, every fan wants a rich owner to pump money into their club and enable them to win things but they still want to win things within the current existing framework.  OK that statement can be picked on and is a bit hypocritical but it's not the fans fault the owners are acting this way and it's not them calling for these changes.  In a perfect world all fans would have solidarity and boycott this idea but it's hard to abandon your club and, as Beattie once said, the only loyalty in football is from the fans.  It's one of the attractions of football that we don't act like customers.  I guess we can call fans naïve  and easily manipulated but I think it's a shame if we go down the road of blaming them.  Similarly we can blame the premier league for allowing owners like this to take over clubs and there's a fair amount of blame to be laid at their door (things like leveraged buyouts should never have been allowed).  The real targets need to be the owners though - whether the systems needed to be more robust, or the fans more critical and discerning about giving their support isn't irrelevant but is a distraction from stopping the super league from becoming a reality. 

[Sarnia Cherie]

3 hours ago, Useful Idiot said:

If the breakaway clubs are really worried about player wages being unsustainable, they should look at introducing a player wage cap instead of just pushing wages higher by chasing bigger media deals. Something like 3 times the average national yearly wage per week would be a fair maximum. The big problem is that the richest clubs have been willing to pay wages that are unsustainable and have inflated the wage bills for everyone else so now even below average Premier League players are paid ridiculous sums.

Very good post. My Dad was football mad and I can still see him ranting away at Jonny Haynes who was the 1st £100 a week footballer. If he was around now.........

[Mustapha Fag]

7 hours ago, JustinSFC said:

Don't think it's a smoke screen, it's been in the pipeline since Leicester won the league.

Its been in the pipeline since Fergie led the cash grab for Sky TV money.

Once they allowed the big clubs to take a bigger slice they were always going to play that card to open wider gaps between the rich and the rest

[Lord Duckhunter]

Just now, Mustapha Fag said:

Its been in the pipeline since Fergie led the cash grab for Sky TV money.

 

Fergie, seriously? 
 

How did he lead it? 

 

[Mustapha Fag]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

Fergie, seriously? 
 

How did he lead it? 

 

You don't remember him going on and on about clubs that are tv more often should have larger amounts of the pie leading to teams in the top 6 featuring every week.

You could argue they deserve more but it led to less for the smaller clubs with less telly plastics

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 minutes ago, Mustapha Fag said:

You don't remember him going on and on about clubs that are tv more often should have larger amounts of the pie leading to teams in the top 6 featuring every week.

You could argue they deserve more but it led to less for the smaller clubs with less telly plastics

Hardly leading a “cash grab”. He’s a manager giving an opinion. 

[Fan The Flames]

It's alright good old Labour have just raised a petition and letter to the competition commission, that'll sort it out. Nothing to see here now.

[Mystic Force]

The Perez saving football claim is the most cynical of this whole endeavor. Football is not dying, they have not taken peoples balls away, there are still clubs all over the place you can follow,  Real have not suddenly lost all their supporters. There are still the world cups and international competition. If one of the big clubs suddenly evaporated the sport would still carry on, Big clubs of the past have been toppled and the sport continues.

It is a naked power grab to the detriment of others and it should be resisted for the overall good of football.

[whelk]

Is there anyone who doesn’t want PSG to beat City now?

[Cabrone]

Just throw them out now and let's get on with a new competitive premier league.

[Convict Colony]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Is there anyone who doesn’t want PSG to beat City now?

I want everyone to beat the top 6

Brightons turn tonight if the chelsea fans let the teams through hahahah

[benjii]

Chelsea about to withdraw apparently. 

[tajjuk]

Aren't Real and Barca basically member owned? Couldn't their fans basically stop this dead? 

[S-Clarke]

4 minutes ago, Cabrone said:

Just throw them out now and let's get on with a new competitive premier league.

This was my thought at the start, but to be honest when you look at it...all that will do is kill off clubs like us.

That's why it can't/won't happen. This will die down eventually, or re-appear as some sort of watered down super league - change is a foot, so it just needs to be worked out.

These top 6 clubs have just called everyones bluff by being dicks though.

[Whitey Grandad]

4 minutes ago, benjii said:

Chelsea about to withdraw apparently. 

That was quick 

[Chris cooper]

Chelsea pulling out 👌🏻

[egg]

4 minutes ago, benjii said:

Chelsea about to withdraw apparently. 

Nice. Hopefully that will be the catalyst for this nonsense to end before any more damage is done. 

[tajjuk]

Apparently less than half of the 12 clubs are 'fanatics' of the plan, the others have basically joined to not miss out.