European League

[Fan The Flames]

5 minutes ago, JRM said:

Absolutely no way the 14 will vote to kick the 6 out. They'll agree to it with money promised from ESL to be paid , owners will protect their short term values, they have no backbone. 

It's not about backbone, they will want to preserve the value of their clubs, which no doubt will be affected by the loss of the big clubs.

The owners of the 14 are in a difficult position. How many home owners would vote for cutting house values by 50% for the good of people in the future.

[JustinSFC]

1 hour ago, alehouseboys said:

Wahey, 3pm Saturday kick-offs are coming back! Kick the fuckers out...reset everything and start again*

 

*won't happen but I'm just an old fucker that preferred the days of the terraces

Can't see where I said "reset everything".

[skintsaint]

7 minutes ago, alehouseboys said:

Florentino Perez

didn't he also say that games are too long for the younger generation and something else they are looking it. Its a joke surely...

[JRM]

26 minutes ago, jawillwill said:

I doubt Sky would get the rights, which is probably why they are so openly against the proposals. Its more likely that the likes of Amazon / Apple will win rights, or alternatively, the ESL will have its own broadcasters/subscription model.

Personally, I'm in the fuck 'em camp. If a new league is set up without the big 6, the other clubs may take a financial hit (maybe even go bust) but I'm sure new clubs would rise and the new league would be a bit more open. The TV deals wouldn't be anywhere as near as big  but games would still be broadcast. Clubs would just need to cut their cloth accordingly. I guess it's the smaller clubs that will suffer most though if money isn't trickling through...but I think the ESL will be pressured into supporting grassroots somehow to sweeten the deal.

If you assume big drop in income a d costs staying the same then yes the whole professional football pyramid would collapse, but by far the highest cost at football clubs is players wages, they would need to come down in line with wages. Not easy to do but would be better in the long run. 

[JustinSFC]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

Fans do realise that, but I guess don't care. Football finances need a reset, it will be painful but not the end of the world.

Can't see how that works.

Player contracts still need to be paid.

Commercial contracts still need paying.

I like the idea but it's impossible.

What I would like to see is fans treating this as business aswell, fans could leverage this.

These 14 clubs are still greedy fuckers and they need fans as a collective unit to get behind it and there needs to be something in it for the fans aswell.

The whole thing is a mess.

But that's greed for you.

 

[Fan The Flames]

They, Big Clubs, will be looking to get rid of transfer fees as well. Maybe compensation to players youth clubs by Big Club Co and players dished out on a draft.

[skintsaint]

5 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

They, Big Clubs, will be looking to get rid of transfer fees as well.

Superstars contracted by the ESL and then an auction before each summer to see who plays where...🤣

[skintsaint]

7 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

Commercial contracts still need paying.

I read companies who will lose money over this will chase the 6 clubs directly for compensation.

[Saint86]

3 hours ago, skintsaint said:

well the bubble had to burst at some point. The fact is you have Real, Barca and Spurs nearing one billion in debt so this is the last throw of the dice for them. Can Spurs survive a season or two outside the current CL riches? The stadium and Covid really has done them in.

Full reset, will be painful but the less money in the English game could be better long term, get some accountability and affordability back with rules in place to avoid the same again in the future. Its pretty rude the talk coming from this ESL mob, with them using examples of two smaller clubs who have made the CL and saying no one cares about it.....how about the bloody fans and players at those clubs. 

Of course they'll survive. Their owner might not. But worst case a club that size just goes into administration and gets bought out as one superb investment.

It is laughable that people are even discussing what Perez said. When he says they are ruined, he means the owners. They've bet the house on trying to stay ahead of the competition by any means necessary and are at risk of losing it all. But if their clubs do get into trouble then they'll be another billionaire owner waiting in the wings to snap them up on the cheap.

Edited 20 April, 2021 by Saint86

[Saint86]

9 hours ago, Saint86 said:

Call their bluff and they have no product. 

Ultimately the big 6 should now be booted out of the league for me, or at least the current incarnations of their clubs. Let it be a lesson to other owners who would do this. Offer up the golden share to the supporters groups and see if they can form a team if it comes to it. If anything, this whole thing has a potential to be a catalyst for change and has highlighted just how the wealthy business men have taken the people's game, and the work and love of millions of people over a hundred plus years, and tried to farm it and then steal it. I would summarily pull the trigger on all of them, boot them from their leagues, boot them from the CL, ban any player who plays in the ESL from international football (laughable that they even suggest this is illegal - the Football Associations of each country will do it just for trying to damage grass routes and the football pyramid)... then leave them the franchises and owners rot in just another MLS/China/UAE league - a bunch of mercenary players at souless clubs, all playing in a pseudo competition. No top players, no competition, the same stale format, and no fans/atmosphere. Sod em all.

Feel for their fans, overnight they've all woken up and realised their club is now more hated than MK Don's - no small feet!

And there can be no compromise here. It will just be a death by a thousand cuts instead of straight away. They'll slowly eek out more and more monetary advantage, weaken the other competitions, and suck up all the players and talent. What will they have, an A team for the ESL, and a B-team for the prem? And what of the prem? they don't need to win it as it would be worth less and not required for qualification?!?! They would have zero place in it imo. And then the TV monies would drop as the competition dies, and this would spiral all down the leagues. Clubs going bust left right and centre, and not ones with huge fanbases able to reform. Hundreds if not thousands of staff losing jobs, fans and communities having a significant part of themselves taken away. No there can be no compromise, they have well and truly tipped their hand, time to boot them out and take the short term pain to restructure the game for the better.

Even the prize pool for the new league is fixed. The permanent members get half the pot locked away secure, so even if say a Leicester won a league and qualified, then won the ESL, they'd only get half of say Real Madrid who wouldn't even progress to the latter rounds.

On this as well, might be a chance to merge with the scottish leagues? Get Celtic, Rangers, Hibs, Hearts, Dons as well? Probably wouldn't happen, but some of those are better clubs that some of our top 6 put it that way.

[Fan The Flames]

2 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

Can't see how that works.

Player contracts still need to be paid.

Commercial contracts still need paying.

I like the idea but it's impossible.

What I would like to see is fans treating this as business aswell, fans could leverage this.

These 14 clubs are still greedy fuckers and they need fans as a collective unit to get behind it and there needs to be something in it for the fans aswell.

The whole thing is a mess.

But that's greed for you.

 

It will naturally happen, TV will pay less for the inferior product so clubs will have to pay less wages and transfer fees. They will have until the end of the TV deal to get their ducks in line. It will be painful because a lot of clubs won't be able to realign quickly enough, but they will eventually. The question is how long will the damage hurt the clubs and where will they end up.

[skintsaint]

4 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

On this as well, might be a chance to merge with the scottish leagues? Get Celtic, Rangers, Hibs, Hearts, Dons as well? Probably wouldn't happen, but some of those are better clubs that some of our top 6 put it that way.

Could work, regionalise the leagues under the championship to save dosh on travel etc for both clubs and fans.

[OldNick]

I saw last night that Sky announced that they have had no contact about brodcasting, I bet they havent and gutted. I would suggest Amazon will be the the seat for that, with the US connection

[Saint86]

3 minutes ago, OldNick said:

I saw last night that Sky announced that they have had no contact about broadcasting, I bet they haven't and gutted. I would suggest Amazon will be the the seat for that, with the US connection

Amazon, Netflix and even google/youtube i reckon. Be good to see significant points deductions and relegation (for some) of the big six for this. And obviously immediately being kicked out of Europe and losing any prize money etc. Chuck in a transfer ban for a few windows as well. Let them have a crack at being like the rest of us then see how they like the locked glass ceiling concept.

Edited 20 April, 2021 by Saint86

[Chewy]

11 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

He also said "This is not a league for the rich, it's a league to save football."

Context being that tv fans are bored of the product. 
The irony being that boredom stems from the lack of competition. The only big league with financial and popular success is the premier league precisely because it’s a competition (less so than years ago but still is).

All the rest are now won all the time by the same one or two sides every year. It is boring ... and was a situation created by exactly the sort of greed and worship of money that is creating this ESL. This won’t save football, it will accelerate its decline.

While it’ll be amusing to see Spurs, Arsenal etc as perennial also rans at the bottom of the ESL, it’ll be dull as dishwater seeing Man City, Madrid and Barca sharing round the trophy every year.

The interest in sport comes from not knowing, this removes it. Worst product concept you could imagine ... if product is what you’re after. 
And depressing for all football fans who all grew up as kids dreaming of sporting glory, knowing that the last pretense of football being a sport has gone

[whelk]

Raise the crossbars by a couple of feet and abolish draws

Edited 20 April, 2021 by whelk

[saint1977]

Really don’t care if top six clear off - still plenty of good days out and PL has been sterile for a while. Hope the genuine working fans from those clubs actually carry out their threat and go to watch FCUM/Oldham/Rochdale/Brentford/Tranmere instead, proper clubs with proper football. They might as well as their seats will double in price full of tourists and they will actually feel appreciated. 

As someone else has commented, Perez’s comments are hypocracy as City, Real and Barca and maybe Juve will alternate winning it, Arse and Spurs at the bottom. Key is whether Bayern, Dortmund and PSG can be persuaded in. Some of the CL games eg Spurs v Bayern have been total gulfs in class, a ESL won’t change that. With no relegation, a wealthy overseas owner’s dream, they will stink out for seasons playing meaningless games. Chelsea, Spurs and Man U all got relegated from D1 in the 1970s and in Spurs and Man U’s case it sorted them out, Chelsea’s debt took longer to get under control.

One thing I’d love to see banned in a new structure is agents. Leave that for the ESL. Gao might be keener to sell now and drop his price hopefully. Get an owner that is actually interested in the sport and community.

[jawillwill]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Raise the crossbars by a couple of feet and abolish draws

Introduce PowerPlays where they have to use a rugby ball for 10 minutes per game. Or where goalkeepers must have 1 hand tied behind their backs.

[CB Fry]

28 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Amazon, Netflix and even google/youtube i reckon. Be good to see significant points deductions and relegation (for some) of the big six for this. And obviously immediately being kicked out of Europe and losing any prize money etc. Chuck in a transfer ban for a few windows as well. Let them have a crack at being like the rest of us then see how they like the locked glass ceiling concept.

I don't think Netflix has expressed any interest in sports rights anywhere. Amazon do seem to be getting stuck in though with Tennis and Rugby especially and their bits of Prem action.

The new league could just go full on owned streaming, like Disney plus or the WWE where they just own their own content. But not sure if that model works quite as well without beer and betting companies.

[skintsaint]

Basically Perez has said : We need to give me more money because I've put my club in massive unsustainable debt. 🤣

[badgerx16]

What are they really after, but which is curently obscured by this smoke screen ?

[JustinSFC]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

It will naturally happen, TV will pay less for the inferior product so clubs will have to pay less wages and transfer fees. They will have until the end of the TV deal to get their ducks in line. It will be painful because a lot of clubs won't be able to realign quickly enough, but they will eventually.

Possibly. Yeah.

[Lighthouse]

34 minutes ago, jawillwill said:

Introduce PowerPlays where they have to use a rugby ball for 10 minutes per game. Or where goalkeepers must have 1 hand tied behind their backs.

Need to re-brand a few teams to give them that proper global franchise feel.

London Gunners vs. Turin Ibex*

Manchester Blue Socks vs. Madrid Ocelots

Merseyside Pirates vs. Milan 56'ers

Don't forget the one with dubious racial undertones, like North London Yiddish, or such like.

*The home team will now be listed second for some reason and fixtures will be described as "Ocelots at Pirates."

[JustinSFC]

20 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

What are they really after, but which is curently obscured by this smoke screen ?

Don't think it's a smoke screen, it's been in the pipeline since Leicester won the league.

[sadoldgit]

11 hours ago, Baird of the land said:

My initial thought was that it was posturing. Seems to have gone beyond that though and can the genie be put back in the bottle. I hope the authorities don’t end up groveling to these clubs and instead the clubs are heavily punished and made to either come crawling back or leave for good.

I agree. I get the feeling that when they didn’t get their own way previously that went away and started to set up their breakaway league and it will be good to go in August. This sounds like a done deal which is why UEFA are not just rattling sabres. These clubs are owned by very rich and powerful people and they would have carefully scrutinised the legalities before launching the new league. As someone said on the news last night, this is going to get very bloody.

[Baird of the land]

52 minutes ago, jawillwill said:

Introduce PowerPlays where they have to use a rugby ball for 10 minutes per game. Or where goalkeepers must have 1 hand tied behind their backs.

There's always that old joke ad, about multi-ball

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, OldNick said:

I saw last night that Sky announced that they have had no contact about brodcasting, I bet they havent and gutted. I would suggest Amazon will be the the seat for that, with the US connection

I expect the plan is for the Super League to set up their own streaming channel and fleece the plastics around the World direct.

[Barsiem]

Everton fans are being quite funny on Twitter on the mo talking about how they’re “the peoples club” as the club put out a statement saying they are against the proposals.... conveniently forgetting the reason Everton’s owners will be against it is because they weren’t invited to be a part of it 😂

[Fan The Flames]

22 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

What are they really after, but which is curently obscured by this smoke screen ?

More of the European TV money, future certainty and a chance to grow the Euro TV money pot.

They believe the world audience wants less Krasnador v Midtjylland and more Man City v Real Madrid. So by guaranteeing that the big clubs are always in it and that they will play each other more, they will have a better offer to drive up the Euro TV deal. And whilst they are forcing these changes, they think they might as well go for giving less of it away as well, in both solidarity payments and to the smaller euro clubs.

The compromise will be a CL that focuses on the big clubs whilst UEFA still slice off money for solidarity payments.

[whelk]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

He also said "This is not a league for the rich, it's a league to save football."

I always knew it was altruism driving this

[Fan The Flames]

3 minutes ago, Barsiem said:

Everton fans are being quite funny on Twitter on the mo talking about how they’re “the peoples club” as the club put out a statement saying they are against the proposals.... conveniently forgetting the reason Everton’s owners will be against it is because they weren’t invited to be a part of it 😂

The walking football team I play for put out a WhatsApp comfirming we will not be joining the Super League. Which is good because our best striker plays in a folk band on Wednesday nights.

[Saint86]

56 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

Basically Perez has said : We need to give me more money because I've put my club in massive unsustainable debt. 🤣

Yup. He's certainly trying to make that argument. Also, the whole "new fans" malarky is basically saying, we are going to take the clubs, forget the fans, and become Real Franchise FC. The only reason their clubs may have falling fanbases, is because their leagues have zero competition and people are bored.

44 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

What are they really after, but which is currently obscured by this smoke screen ?

And this is why. This is about them getting a bigger (and secured) slice of the pie (long term). Something they can never lose. They will hapily play the long game, getting more and more wealth and stopping others competing, but ultimately that is where it is headed. And it has to be stopped now, before general apathy and a new "lower hope" trend is established in the pyramids and smaller clubs. But this ultimately is the compromise they are after, but there can be no compromise on this. Its a slippery slope with no going back. The issue is however, that our clubs are owned by businessmen who won't want to risk lising out, wheras as fans, we'd probably risk our clubs going to the wall and fighting our way back, rather than have a meaningless existence as a feeder club that can never even dream of playing at the top table.

10 hours ago, Saint86 said:

And there can be no compromise here. It will just be a death by a thousand cuts instead of straight away. They'll slowly eek out more and more monetary advantage, weaken the other competitions, and suck up all the players and talent. What will they have, an A team for the ESL, and a B-team for the prem? And what of the prem? they don't need to win it as it would be worth less and not required for qualification?!?! They would have zero place in it imo. And then the TV monies would drop as the competition dies, and this would spiral all down the leagues. Clubs going bust left right and centre, and not ones with huge fanbases able to reform. Hundreds if not thousands of staff losing jobs, fans and communities having a significant part of themselves taken away. No there can be no compromise, they have well and truly tipped their hand, time to boot them out and take the short term pain to restructure the game for the better.
 

Even the prize pool for the new league is fixed. The permanent members get half the pot locked away secure, so even if say a Leicester won a league and qualified, then won the ESL, they'd only get half of say Real Madrid who wouldn't even progress to the latter rounds.

Edited 20 April, 2021 by Saint86

[JustinSFC]

1 hour ago, skintsaint said:

Basically Perez has said : We need to give me more money because I've put my club in massive unsustainable debt. 🤣

Leaving the wider picture to one side for a moment, I'm finding it highly fucking amusing that the 14 clubs who have creamed the Sky TV pot for over a decade and have relied on it to fund their lavish club culture and paying exorbitant wages, are now absolutely shitting themselves.

 

[saintwbu]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

What are they really after, but which is curently obscured by this smoke screen ?

That’s my feeling, this is a power grab again, they’re heaping pressure on out in the open to try and gain in other ways so think.

[Matthew Le God]

14 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

Leaving the wider picture to one side for a moment, I'm finding it highly fucking amusing that the 14 clubs who have creamed the Sky TV pot for over a decade and have relied on it to fund their lavish club culture and paying exorbitant wages, are now absolutely shitting themselves.

Why is it 'amusing' when the club you support is one of those 14? The 'big 6' leaving hits Saints financially as PL tv deals would shrink alot.

Edited 20 April, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[JustinSFC]

37 minutes ago, Barsiem said:

Everton fans are being quite funny on Twitter on the mo talking about how they’re “the peoples club” as the club put out a statement saying they are against the proposals.... conveniently forgetting the reason Everton’s owners will be against it is because they weren’t invited to be a part of it 😂

They would have snapped their hand off they got invited to the party.
 

Their entire statement is hilarious.

[JustinSFC]

Just now, Matthew Le God said:

Why is it 'amusing' when the club you support is one of those 14?

Yup.

We've got greedy fuckers here aswell.

Sorry to break it to you.

[OldNick]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

I don't think Netflix has expressed any interest in sports rights anywhere. Amazon do seem to be getting stuck in though with Tennis and Rugby especially and their bits of Prem action.

The new league could just go full on owned streaming, like Disney plus or the WWE where they just own their own content. But not sure if that model works quite as well without beer and betting companies.

If Disney do it I assume Pompey will be parachuted in

[Matthew Le God]

1 minute ago, JustinSFC said:

Yup.

We've got greedy fuckers here aswell.

Sorry to break it to you.

Still doesn't explain why you think the club you support being hit financially is amusing.

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said:

Still doesn't explain why you think the club you support being hit financially is amusing.

Go and have a cup of tea and a hob nob and mull it over.

[JustinSFC]

2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Still doesn't explain why you think the club you support being hit financially is amusing.

Did you miss the part where I said "leaving the wider picture asside"....

 

[aintforever]

7 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Still doesn't explain why you think the club you support being hit financially is amusing.

Makes no difference to me wether Bertrand is paid £50,000 a week or £500.

[JRM]

7 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Makes no difference to me wether Bertrand is paid £50,000 a week or £500.

Doesn't matter to me if our income drops as long as all clubs income drops as well, people who have to take financial hit are the players (wages) and owners (asset value of the club) 

Football would carry on.

 

[Matthew Le God]

14 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Makes no difference to me wether Bertrand is paid £50,000 a week or £500.

 

6 minutes ago, JRM said:

Doesn't matter to me if our income drops as long as all clubs income drops as well, people who have to take financial hit are the players (wages) and owners (asset value of the club) 

Football would carry on.

 

It makes a difference to Saints ability to pay current contracts. Obligation to pay them even if our income drops significantly with small PL TV deals in the future.

[Sarnia Cherie]

3 hours ago, Morse said:

BBC hearing from well placed source 2 of the twelve clubs are already getting cold feet. 

Man U and RM the driving force behind this, and the three american owned english clubs are determined to do this. 

I wonder if that is Chelsea and Man City? I have just been reading an article that they were reluctant to join. It also said Tuchel would never be keen for an ESL either.

[aintforever]

14 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

It makes a difference to Saints ability to pay current contracts. Obligation to pay them even if our income drops significantly with small PL TV deals in the future.

It all depends on the time scale of the changes, I'm pretty sure the current Sky TV deal will have to be honoured regardless of what the greedy 6 do so it will just be a case of scaling down the contracts before the transition.

Edited 20 April, 2021 by aintforever

[Alanh]

So the 12 founders want more and importantly, secured income from a European competition, but also to play in their own national leagues so that they can continue to win trophies and have enough games to play.  In the Uk the PL need them to participate so that they have as strong a product as possible to sell to TV around the world.  The big issue is that the guaranteed revenue that they get from the ESL can then be spent on their squad for the PL which brings even more financial distortion than exists at present.  I think the best solution is:

1. Let them go and create this new league.

2. Let them remain in the PL

3. Implement a wage  / spending cap in the PL for all teams which their PL squad has to ahere to.  They can then decide which players they want to include in their PL squad.

4. Work with UEFA to create a European competition which rivals the ESL and is open (to qualification through national league or cup success) to any club which is not part of the ESL.  That competition would still be attractive as it would include the big German teams, PSG, Napoli, Porto Galatasary, etc as well as the non big 6 UK teams.

This will allow their owners to make loads of money, which they seem to want, but they won't be able to use it to distort competition in the PL, and the winners of the PL (now on a more level financial playing field) get European competition in the next season.

Edited 20 April, 2021 by Alanh
Hit send too early!

[JustinSFC]

14 minutes ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

I wonder if that is Chelsea and Man City? I have just been reading an article that they were reluctant to join. It also said Tuchel would never be keen for an ESL either.

I reckon Spurs.

This is a massive gamble for them.

They've got no arbitrary right to be involved and if the PL do throw them out of the league and the ESL decide they don't want them anymore at any time in the future, they are up shits creek.

From what I gather, the ESL make their own rules and can do what they like. It's a closed shop.

Edited 20 April, 2021 by JustinSFC

[igsey]

5 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

I reckon Spurs.

This is a massive gamble for them.

They've got no arbitrary right to be involved and if the PL do throw them out of the league and the ESL decide they don't want them anymore at any time in the future, they are up shits creek.

From what I gather, the ESL make their own rules and can do what they like. It's a closed shop.

Disagree, Spurs are £1bn in debt, more than any of the other 11 that have signed up. They need money. I would not be at all surprised if they built their new stadium with this Super League precisely in mind.

[Saint_Jonny]

I just think that it is hard enough for teams like Saints to meaningfully compete as it is - never mind with the already six richest teams getting a nailed-on additional payment of £350 million quid (or whatever the number is). 

It can't be allowed to happen, and if it does, these teams shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the existing league structure. If they get their cake and are allowed to eat it (play in ESL & PL) I want absolutely fuck all to do with it. Like I said, it's shit enough for clubs like ours as it is - relatively speaking - I know we could be in League One without a pot to piss in - but that wouldn't bother me as much as this does - I'm not a plastic eating football manager playing glory whore of a fan.