Time for a clear out

[Nemi]

I think people are expecting too much from this squad. Ralph has his flaws, and has clearly struggled recently, but the reality is a change of manager or change of formation/tactics isn’t going to hide the fact this is just the 15th/16th best team in the league - we’ve been a bottom half team for three or four years under various managers. And we can’t make excuses about injuries or poor refereeing or fatigue as every team has had to deal with this.
 

A big problem is that we used to buy players who knew how to win - Alderweireld, Van Dijk, Wanyama, S. Davis, Mane, Forster all came from teams who had won championships even if it was in a lower league. Compared to now, our main players like JWP, Bednarek and Vestergaard are average players who don’t know who to win football games. Unfortunately this squad has a losing mentality, and will just carry on throwing away leads and crumbling under pressure.

Yes it’s unlikely to happen, but unless there is a big rebuild we can’t expect a new manager or a new formation and tactics to change the fact that the players we have - talented or not - just aren’t very good at winning football matches. I know fans aren’t content at the moment, but 15th is roughly our level with what we have at the moment.

GK: Need to get rid of one of three out of Gunn/McCarthy/Forster. An upgrade would be welcome but Forster at least has proven himself under Koeman to be a top-half keeper.

CB: The stats don’t lie, we ship an unbelievable amount of goals. Vestergaard is a luxury player who would probably look great in a team that doesn’t defend much but we concede to many goals with him. Bednarek is always on the recovery as his positioning is terrible and is easily overpowered. Compare him Fonte to Van Dijk who barely had to break stride because they would dominate the opposition. 

LB/RB: KWP needs some better CBs to help him defensively and we need a younger replacement for Bertrand now.

CM: Unpopular opinion but Ward-Prowse is the big problem in my view. He covers ground and scores free-kicks but he doesn’t have enough composure on the ball. Always dropping back as a third CB in possession as he can’t operate under-pressure and it ruins the balance of the team going forward. Romeu is great on the ball, exactly what we miss right now, but I disagree when people say he’s good at breaking up the play - off the ball he’s always just a yard or two behind and it has cost us a lot of goals. Diallo has promise but it doesn’t work him and JWP. Would give him a run with Romeu next season or maybe someone new.

AM: Armstrong is our best player this season. But it says a lot when we rely on Redmond for creativity. Desperately need someone in the mould of Tadic. Walcott is direct at least but we all know is end product is poor. Same issue with Djenepo and Tella but hopefully they are young enough to improve on this. The other issue is that we desperately lack someone who had the physicality of Mane - they are all far too weak.

ST: Need Ings to stay but top players need quality round them. Adams has just about done enough so far but needs someone who can challenge him for the second striker spot.

Edited 14 April, 2021 by Nemi
Clarification

[AlexLaw76]

Have you ever thought that a big part of our problem is the manager's stubbornness to play variations of 442?  We are routinely outnumbered in the middle of the park and face balls over the top of our fullbacks, compounded with our absolutely daftly slow, ponderous attacking play where we rarely get in behind.

We have been worked out some time ago and the manager has no idea how to change it.

Of course, better players help.

[Turkish]

Another thread about how we need to sell the crap players and sign better ones. Just what this forum was needing.

[Nemi]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Have you ever thought that a big part of our problem is the manager's stubbornness to play variations of 442?  We are routinely outnumbered in the middle of the park and face balls over the top of our fullbacks, compounded with our absolutely daftly slow, ponderous attacking play where we rarely get in behind.

We have been worked out some time ago and the manager has no idea how to change it.

Of course, better players help.

I agree that is one of his flaws. I’d personally go 4231 with Armstrong at no10, but the issue is we’d still lack creativity, the CBs are poor and the DMs probably would still get overrun. I just don’t see who creates in this squad at the moment?

[Ex Lion Tamer]

8 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Another thread about how we need to sell the crap players and sign better ones. Just what this forum was needing.

Another snarky post from Turkish. Just what this forum was needing.

[Nemi]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Another thread about how we need to sell the crap players and sign better ones. Just what this forum was needing.

Unsurprisingly, it’s one of the very few options football teams have. However, I’m definitely one of the few people who probably thinks it’s a decent idea to ship off some of our bigger name players JWP, Vestergaard, Bednarek as they’ve proven over the last three years they’re not gonna get us back into the top 10. Don’t think enough have accepted that this team is realistically the 15th/16th best in the league.

[the saint in winchester]

18 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Have you ever thought that a big part of our problem is the manager's stubbornness to play variations of 442?  We are routinely outnumbered in the middle of the park and face balls over the top of our fullbacks, compounded with our absolutely daftly slow, ponderous attacking play where we rarely get in behind.

We have been worked out some time ago and the manager has no idea how to change it.

Of course, better players help.

Tend to agree after seeing us this season. The 4-2-2-2 every game, and the same 14 every time, playing the same way. When we went to the formation last season it was novel and we caught teams out. Not any more. Other teams know our moves every time. BFS knew our moves and made plans to nullify them.

We need to use the squad more and try different things. This season has been same old same old.

The problem is we have fully invested in Ralph's philosophy and ways, and I don't see him changing.

[Saint Garrett]

8 minutes ago, Nemi said:

Unsurprisingly, it’s one of the very few options football teams have. However, I’m definitely one of the few people who probably thinks it’s a decent idea to ship off some of our bigger name players JWP, Vestergaard, Bednarek as they’ve proven over the last three years they’re not gonna get us back into the top 10. Don’t think enough have accepted that this team is realistically the 15th/16th best in the league.

It's also incredibly unlikely a club our size with our owner, will be finishing top 10...

You have the traditional "top 6", plus West Ham, Everton and Leicester who have cash to burn.  You then have Wolves and Leeds who will spend money...that's 11.

Could we sneak into the top 10 if one of those falters? Yes absolutely...is it likely? No not really...

Let's be honest, our "level" as a club is probably somewhere between 12th - 16th.

[Sunglasses Ron]

2 hours ago, Nemi said:

Forster at least has proven himself under Koeman to be a top-half keeper.

That's a bit like saying that Macauley Culkin has proven himself to be a top child actor and could still do a job now 😃

 

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, Nemi said:

Unsurprisingly, it’s one of the very few options football teams have. However, I’m definitely one of the few people who probably thinks it’s a decent idea to ship off some of our bigger name players JWP, Vestergaard, Bednarek as they’ve proven over the last three years they’re not gonna get us back into the top 10. Don’t think enough have accepted that this team is realistically the 15th/16th best in the league.

I love the simplicity of it all. Lets sell him, him and him, then buy him, him, him and him and we'd be so much better. Realistically who could we attract better than the three players you mention who would be better than them with the budget we've got?

[Saint86]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

Another thread about how we need to sell the crap players and sign better ones. Just what this forum was needing.

Damn right. Also Just what the players, fanbase, and club (as a whole need) when going into an FA Cup semi final. And yet strangely, some of our fans struggle to understand why people criticise our support at times.... The mind boggles.

The amount of negativity from fans going into an FA Cup semi final is unbelievable. The team is safe in the prem with 6 games to go, and we've got the prospect of a cup final to look forward to.

How on earth did said fans manage in League 1...

[CB Fry]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

Another thread about how we need to sell the crap players and sign better ones. Just what this forum was needing.

The main problem with Southampton Football Club, and I've said this many times, is that we sign too many rubbish players when we need to be only signing good players.

I don't understand it.

[skintsaint]

26 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

How on earth did said fans manage in League 1...

We were winning most of the games and winning silverware at Wembley....easy to follow back then tbh 😄

[Toussaint]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

Another thread about how we need to sell the crap players and sign better ones. Just what this forum was needing.

You must agree we need some fresh crap?

[SKD]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

I love the simplicity of it all. Lets sell him, him and him, then buy him, him, him and him and we'd be so much better. Realistically who could we attract better than the three players you mention who would be better than them with the budget we've got?

This. Too many playing fifa and/or football manager setting unrealistic expectations.  

We've been trying to shift shite like lemina, Hodet, Forster etc for years. We effectively had to let Boufal walk for nothing and paid Carrillo up. 

Why some seem to think we’ll just be able to shift the likes of Redmond, Stephens the the rest of the shite for any substantial amount given us funds to replace them is ludicrous. 

We’ve probably only got 4 or 5 players that are worth any real significant value and 2 of those run out on contract in a years time. 

Essentially, our sell to buy model has royally fucked us. 

[Fan The Flames]

I'm reading this whilst on the toilet, how apt.

[saint1977]

1 hour ago, LeG said:

I agree. This team has been crap under loads of managers now. I hope we give ralph a team he wants. We have some exciting young players to build a team around... Vestergaard, Armstrong, Diallo, Salisu, Jankewitz, KWP, JWP, Tella, Djenepo, Smallboner.

 

Out:

 

Bert, Stephens, Redmond, Forster, McCarthy, Gunn, Valery, Hoedt, Lemina, Nlundulu, Vokins, Long.

I don’t disagree but unless Gao is gone over the next couple of months lock stock and barrel, which is pretty unlikely, then I can’t see how the club could bring in the quality needed for survival to supplement the better prospects you list.

Also, look at his hard it’s been to shift Les’s Thursday pension day special signings - Lemina has had a decent season for a shit Fulham side, so we might get a few takers now who will pay the sort of fee Fulham would have in his last year. Les was Branfoot, Pellegrino and Lowe rolled into one in his last two seasons. 

Hoedt - Championship beckons on 50% wages at best so will be a net cost. Gunn loaned again. Forster might go to Celtic finally if he isn’t a dickhead about his last year’s wages but low fee to offset. Long - almost as bad an extension as Forster, sackable offence whoever sanctioned that, surely that decision wasn’t made sober? Reading might take him on 25% wages, skates if they go up. Berty free with honour and thanks, Jack and Nathan most likely to attract fees, £10-12m. N’Lundulu to Basingstoke or Bashley.

 

 

 

[WALK DMC]

40 minutes ago, saint1977 said:

Forster might go to Celtic finally if he isn’t a dickhead about his last year’s wages but low fee to offset. 

 

 

 

Why would Forster leave now ?   He is currently the number 1 at a Premier league team and only has a year left on his contract. He can leave in 12 months for nothing and get a decent signing on fee at another club (e.g. Celtic).  

There are some players that will be very difficult to shift; I suspect that we'll negotiate a pay-off with Hoedt for his final years contract. Hopefully we can still get a few million for Lemina (although his value is falling as he enters the final year of his contract so possibly a loan). 

Either way the days of milk and honey and a substantially smaller wage bill are at least another 12 months off. 

[Saint Billy]

5 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

It's also incredibly unlikely a club our size with our owner, will be finishing top 10...

You have the traditional "top 6", plus West Ham, Everton and Leicester who have cash to burn.  You then have Wolves and Leeds who will spend money...that's 11.

Could we sneak into the top 10 if one of those falters? Yes absolutely...is it likely? No not really...

Let's be honest, our "level" as a club is probably somewhere between 12th - 16th.

It would be a little better if we didn't have these humiliating losses that we have had over the last two seasons, these have really rubbed salt into the wound. 

[Baird of the land]

3 hours ago, SKD said:

This. Too many playing fifa and/or football manager setting unrealistic expectations.  

We've been trying to shift shite like lemina, Hodet, Forster etc for years. We effectively had to let Boufal walk for nothing and paid Carrillo up. 

Why some seem to think we’ll just be able to shift the likes of Redmond, Stephens the the rest of the shite for any substantial amount given us funds to replace them is ludicrous. 

We’ve probably only got 4 or 5 players that are worth any real significant value and 2 of those run out on contract in a years time. 

Essentially, our sell to buy model has royally fucked us. 

Exactly this, the only ones we’d be likely to shift are one we wouldn’t want to lose.

[Nemi]

5 hours ago, Turkish said:

I love the simplicity of it all. Lets sell him, him and him, then buy him, him, him and him and we'd be so much better. Realistically who could we attract better than the three players you mention who would be better than them with the budget we've got?

Guess I haven’t made my point very well off this is what the discussion is turning into. Not saying I have the answers but I think too many fans expect us to suddenly transform and improve by simply changing tactics or changing formation or replacing Hasenhüttl - we need to get real and accept this squad is only good enough to achieve 14th place at best. And I think too many excuses have been made in regards to injuries, poor decisions or fatigue - this is something every team has to deal with. Nothing is going to change the facts that our key-players especially have many flaws, and even if you want to disagree with me r.e. their talent, they don’t know how to win games. This is an undeniable fact, as we just don’t win many games, even when performing well. This won’t change unless there are big changes in the squad - and yes I know it probably won’t happen.

But when we were most successful under Koeman, our squad had a mixture of players who had experience winning games and winning championships with young talent. Unfortunately now, our squad is full of players with a losing mentality who are unable to deal with pressure, who start every game in key positions. Unless that changes we can’t expect this football club to consistently win football matches. It’s time to get real and just accept this is club probably won’t be achieving much more than 15th or 16th place.

 

 

[Nemi]

7 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

It's also incredibly unlikely a club our size with our owner, will be finishing top 10...

You have the traditional "top 6", plus West Ham, Everton and Leicester who have cash to burn.  You then have Wolves and Leeds who will spend money...that's 11.

Could we sneak into the top 10 if one of those falters? Yes absolutely...is it likely? No not really...

Let's be honest, our "level" as a club is probably somewhere between 12th - 16th.

Yeah totally agree, this is kinda the point it seems like I failed to make.

[S-Clarke]

It's not a great squad and it hasn't been for years. The problem is that we've assembled a load of very average players and are paying them obscene amounts of money, so we've been stuck with them.

In an ideal world you'd replace Bednarek, Romeu, and Adams, Redmond etc right down the spine of the team with better players. But we can't do that, so we just have to hope we pickup gems in the Diallo/Salisu price bracket and hope they develop over a year or two.

The squad has regressed from where we were and that is sadly down to truly horrific scouting in the most part. If we'd spent that Mane/VVD/Wanyama/Pelle/ money better than we did then it would be a different story I imagine.

We didn't though. We spent it on average like Boufal, Hoedt, Carrillo, Elyounossi, Vestergaard, Bednarek, Adams, Redmond and took our side backwards quicker than you could imagine. And given we have an owner with no interest and a keenness to sell us, we are absolutely stuck without a pot to piss in - total limbo land. So we then have to sell some of the 'above average' in order to strengthen the squad. Continuously one step backwards and it will equal the inevitable relegation at some point in the very near future as it's just not sustainable.

Edited 14 April, 2021 by S-Clarke

[Nemi]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

It's not a great squad and it hasn't been for years. The problem is that we've assembled a load of very average players and are paying them obscene amounts of money, so we've been stuck with them.

In an ideal world you'd replace Bednarek, Romeu, and Adams, Redmond etc right down the spine of the team with better players. But we can't do that, so we just have to hope we pickup gems in the Diallo/Salisu price bracket and hope they develop over a year or two.

The squad has regressed from where we were and that is sadly down to truly horrific scouting in the most part. If we'd spent that Mane/VVD/Wanyama/Pelle/ money better than we did then it would be a different story I imagine.

We didn't though. We spent it on average like Boufal, Hoedt, Carrillo, Elyounossi, Vestergaard, Bednarek, Adams, Redmond and took our side backwards quicker than you could imagine. And given we have an owner with no interest and a keenness to sell us, we are absolutely stuck without a pot to piss in - total limbo land. So we then have to sell some of the 'above average' in order to strengthen the squad. Continuously one step backwards and it will equal the inevitable relegation at some point in the very near future as it's just not sustainable.

Yeah a rebuild is unlikely. Saying that the ‘gems’ we signed under Poch and Koeman - Alderweireld, Wanyama, Forster, Van Dijk, Mane came from teams that were winning leagues (even Lovren would a trophy at OL) . Along with more experienced signings such as S Davis and Pelle who also came from league winning teams. Ever since, generally our ‘gems’ haven’t come from winning teams, and our team is desperately lacking experience and leaders. The balance isn’t there like it was in 2015, I know our business model looks at young players, but I also think one or two experienced options (could be on loan or on a free) would be a benefit for the moment.

[S-Clarke]

44 minutes ago, Nemi said:

Yeah a rebuild is unlikely. Saying that the ‘gems’ we signed under Poch and Koeman - Alderweireld, Wanyama, Forster, Van Dijk, Mane came from teams that were winning leagues (even Lovren would a trophy at OL) . Along with more experienced signings such as S Davis and Pelle who also came from league winning teams. Ever since, generally our ‘gems’ haven’t come from winning teams, and our team is desperately lacking experience and leaders. The balance isn’t there like it was in 2015, I know our business model looks at young players, but I also think one or two experienced options (could be on loan or on a free) would be a benefit for the moment.

I think the problem we have now is that the level of player have gone up in price. So whilst you could snare Mane at like 10m 5 or 6 years ago....an equivalent at Salzburg now would be Daka...he's being touted at 20m plus. So, the market has shifted. The 10-15m market which once got us a Mane, Tadic, Pele etc isn't really getting us much now. I don't think we can genuinely get those players for this £10m figure, it's more of the development market we'll be shopping in. No instant starters etc.

I think an approach could be loans for the 'experience' first team signings. Could be some decent loans out there if the parent clubs are open to subsidising most of their wages. But that market doesn't really open up until the final couple of days of the window.

Edited 14 April, 2021 by S-Clarke

[VectisSaint]

2 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

 

In an ideal world you'd replace Bednarek, Romeu, and Adams, Redmond etc right down the spine of the team with better players. But we can't do that, so we just have to hope we pickup gems in the Diallo/Salisu price bracket and hope they develop over a year or two.

 

In an ideal world you would not replace Romeu. Maybe the rest of who you listed. Mad. Romeu is about the only one that would be a must keep. Diallo is no gem, at least based on his perfomance Monday.

[S-Clarke]

Just now, VectisSaint said:

In an ideal world you would not replace Romeu. Maybe the rest of who you listed. Mad. Romeu is about the only one that would be a must keep. Diallo is no gem, at least based on his perfomance Monday.

Not replace him per-say, but upgrade on him is probably more what I'd meant to say. You'd have a new starter alongside JWP basically, Romeu would be in the squad and would probably play a good % of games too.

Obviously this is pipe dream stuff though. Don't have any problem with Romeu and whilst he's decent enough, we're not going to get any further than midtable with him as our only 'destructive' type CM.

[Pedantic Pete]

Could we combine this thread with the "who can we buy off the relegated teams" thread?

We could sell our players and buy all of West Broms when they go down..That would set us up nicely for next season!

 

[verlaine1979]

3 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

I think the problem we have now is that the level of player have gone up in price. So whilst you could snare Mane at like 10m 5 or 6 years ago....an equivalent at Salzburg now would be Daka...he's being touted at 20m plus. So, the market has shifted. The 10-15m market which once got us a Mane, Tadic, Pele etc isn't really getting us much now. I don't think we can genuinely get those players for this £10m figure, it's more of the development market we'll be shopping in. No instant starters etc.

I think an approach could be loans for the 'experience' first team signings. Could be some decent loans out there if the parent clubs are open to subsidising most of their wages. But that market doesn't really open up until the final couple of days of the window.

Yup - the days of Salzburg et al letting a player with 20+ goals a season go for peanuts are over, ditto for getting the best players from Holland and Belgium. People were seriously talking about Upamecano only a window or two ago, and look where he actually moved to. We have to get more creative with our scouting, but at the moment I'm not sure we have the infrastructure to do that.

[skintsaint]

22 minutes ago, verlaine1979 said:

Upamecano

Think he even cost 2 or 3m from a lower Austrian team before Salzburg. Maybe we need as a club need to do the Spurs approach on a lower level, look for players with a year left on the contract to hump them on the fee?

[Avenue_Saint]

17 hours ago, LeG said:

I agree. This team has been crap under loads of managers now. I hope we give ralph a team he wants. We have some exciting young players to build a team around... Vestergaard, Armstrong, Diallo, Salisu, Jankewitz, KWP, JWP, Tella, Djenepo, Smallboner.

 

Out:

 

Bert, Stephens, Redmond, Forster, McCarthy, Gunn, Valery, Hoedt, Lemina, Nlundulu, Vokins, Long.

Good post and Forster aside, I would agree with all 👍🏼

[Danbert]

"Niemi" - surprised Pedantic Pete didn't spot that.

[Turkish]

6 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

Yup - the days of Salzburg et al letting a player with 20+ goals a season go for peanuts are over, ditto for getting the best players from Holland and Belgium. People were seriously talking about Upamecano only a window or two ago, and look where he actually moved to. We have to get more creative with our scouting, but at the moment I'm not sure we have the infrastructure to do that.

Peanuts is relative. £20m is peanuts for a lot of premier clubs, for us for some reason it’s considered a fortune,.

Edited 15 April, 2021 by Turkish

[Matthew Le God]

6 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

Yup - the days of Salzburg et al letting a player with 20+ goals a season go for peanuts are over.

On what is that based? As recently as 2019 they sold Erling Haaland for less than we paid for Ings! So why would Daka cost more?

Edited 15 April, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[SKD]

Despite being 2 of our technically better players, I’m half looking forward for Ings and Bertrand to be gone this summer. At least that’s 2 of the uninterested cancers in the dressing room gone (maybe slightly unfair on ings).

Before anyone jumps in and down my throat, take a look at Ings body Language for the remaining games. Uninterested and always moaning. I don’t blame him as it must be frustrating playing in this shite team, but if you don’t want to be here, then best to fuck off.

As for Bertrand, he’s been a negative atmosphere around the dressing room since his buddy Jose left. I really hope we don’t offer him a new deal. 

[SKD]

26 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

On what is that based? As recently as 2019 they sold Erling Haaland for less than we paid for Ings! So why would Daka cost more?

Perhaps because of that exact reason. Marketed as ‘the next Haaland’.

[JustinSFC]

54 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

On what is that based? As recently as 2019 they sold Erling Haaland for less than we paid for Ings! So why would Daka cost more?

Thought that was more the release clause in his contract than anything else IIRC.

Was under the impression he chose Dortmund as I'm pretty certain Raiola went on TalkSport saying any other move doesn't make sense at that time, presumably he predicted a mega money move after Dortmund, looks like he was right.

 

[Hodgey]

Where to start !. Firstly we’ve tried to clear out players before and got nowhere (indeed Hoet Lemina and Elynoussi continue to return). So if we managed to move on a couple of players we don’t want that would be a good result. More likely is we lose players we do - Ings, JV and Redmond which may free up some wages and transfer budget. Next question is how wisely can we invest - recent history suggests we’ll buy a couple of £15m players who will need a season to bed in and may or may not be of the quality required. So you lose 3 1st team and replace them with 3 players you already know to be inferior for a season. How about the youth ? With both U23 and U18s bottom of their leagues and pretty abject - nothing doing there for at least 2 years. 
So what is the answer ? Firstly we have to nail the loan system - we’ve seen with Lingard and AMN it can be done but we’ll need good loan fee and wages signed off. we need 1st team starters on loan and probably need them to be the spine of our team - so a cf / cm or cb. 
Then we have to hope that Salisu / Diallo / Tella / Djenepo improve and buy a few more  ‘potentials’ (I’d start with the championship). 
finally we may need to dip into the free transfer pot for some cover in key areas (ie full back) which I can see having more quality / volume than other years due to Covid.

It’s all a very tall order though - get it right we could be lower mid table, get a couple wrong i can see relegation.

oh and for goodness sake have a strategy on squad balance. Aim should be a prem quality player on every position with someone who could at least do a job for a few games in reserve. Not no full backs but a load of gks and wingers

[verlaine1979]

7 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

On what is that based? As recently as 2019 they sold Erling Haaland for less than we paid for Ings! So why would Daka cost more?

Haaland had a release clause. Not surprising for a player whose career is so clearly being engineered for the big time. Likewise see his comparatively small Dortmund release clause.

[Daft Kerplunk]

15 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

Haaland had a release clause. Not surprising for a player whose career is so clearly being engineered for the big time. Likewise see his comparatively small Dortmund release clause.

Dortmund is also about as good a club as you can get to jump off to the big time. Proper football club. 

We had a brief moment in the sun as a jumping off club when Paul Mitchell was here and then Les fucked it up because he thought he was football’s Billy Beane after watching Moneyball.