Che Adams - could Saints do better?

[skintsaint]

2 minutes ago, SKD said:

I can’t remember the last time we went 1-1 with the keeper and stuck it away? Genuine question, when was the last time? 

last night?

[Whitey Grandad]

59 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Well you dont win games by looking at spreadsheets.

There's another saying,

You don't fatten the pig by weighing it.

[skintsaint]

ignore me...you meant 'he' not 'we'...

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, skintsaint said:

last night?

That was instinctive. He had no time to think about it.

[Whitey Grandad]

11 minutes ago, Minsk said:

He is by no means 'dreadful' and certainly not 'absolutely dreadful'. If you seriously think he is then all those I am about to mention must be dreadful too. With 3 matches of the season to go: Che has only scored 1 goal less than Mane, Mahrez and Cavani (who obviously play alongside much better players); has scored the same number of goals as Jota, Jesus, Benteke and Maupay; more goals than the likes of Greenwood, Firmino, Richarlison, Abraham, Raphinha, Pepe, Werner, Martial, Welbeck, and so may others.

Similarly, Che has only: 1 less assist than Sterling, Firmino and Neto; the same number of assists as the likes of Mane, Willian, Pereira and Wilson; more assists than (to name but a few) Ings, Mahrez, Moura, Saint-Maximin, Salah, Watkins, Richarlison, Jesus, Martial, Saka, Aubemayang and Wood.

Could Che do better yes. Could we do better than Che? Only if we pay a shitload of money for a top, top, player and even then, looking at the fees paid for players he has outscored and assisted more goals than, there is no guarantee.

Che is good TEAM player. We play better when he is the team. He has a great partnership with Ings, which will hopefully still be the case next season and for for a few more seasons to come. If not, I fully expect Che to be part of a successful partnership with who ever we bring in to replace Danny.

Good post. Well worth his place just as long as you don't expect him to score twenty goals a season. If he did he wouldn't stay here long.

[ErwinK1961]

We're a better team when Che and Danny are playing up front together, simple as that. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

19 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

We're a better team when Che and Danny are playing up front together, simple as that. 

That says more about the alternative options, than it does about Adams. 

[SKD]

28 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

We're a better team when Che and Danny are playing up front together, simple as that. 

We’re a better team when Danny is playing up front, simple as that. 

[Mustapha Fag]

8 minutes ago, SKD said:

We’re a better team when Danny is playing up front, simple as that. 

 

17 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

That says more about the alternative options, than it does about Adams. 

I dont know who's better attacking pairing,

you two, who may or may not be the same person but seem to appear as a 'i hate everything SFC' double act on nearly every thread

Ings and Adams 

or Morecambe and Wise

[ErwinK1961]

11 minutes ago, SKD said:

We’re a better team when Danny is playing up front, simple as that. 

Danny doesn't play as well without Che in the team, simple as that.

[Lord Duckhunter]

15 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

Danny doesn't play as well without Che in the team, simple as that.

That’s because the alternative is Walcott, Redmond or Tella. If Kelvin Davis was our reserve keeper, posting “we look better with Gunn in nets”, doesn’t actually mean very  much. There’s nothing particularly wrong with Che Adams, he’s ok, limited but room for improvement. But to try and claim he somehow compliments Ings or Ings isn’t as good without him is pure pony.
 

Personally, I’m hoping Obafemi trains on and then we won’t solely being relying on Adams to partner Ings. 

[ErwinK1961]

4 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

That’s because the alternative is Walcott, Redmond or Tella. If Kelvin Davis was our reserve keeper, posting “we look better with Gunn in nets”, doesn’t actually mean very  much. There’s nothing particularly wrong with Che Adams, he’s ok, limited but room for improvement. But to try and claim he somehow compliments Ings or Ings isn’t as good without him is pure pony.
 

Personally, I’m hoping Obafemi trains on and then we won’t solely being relying on Adams to partner Ings. 

That's your opinion. I disagree.

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

That's your opinion. I disagree.

Do you think Ings plays better with a stronger player up top with him, or with Che Adams in particular. We won’t know the answer to that until the alternative isn’t a lightweight converted winger. 

[rooney]

3 hours ago, Minsk said:

He is by no means 'dreadful' and certainly not 'absolutely dreadful'. If you seriously think he is then all those I am about to mention must be dreadful too. With 3 matches of the season to go: Che has only scored 1 goal less than Mane, Mahrez and Cavani (who obviously play alongside much better players); has scored the same number of goals as Jota, Jesus, Benteke and Maupay; more goals than the likes of Greenwood, Firmino, Richarlison, Abraham, Raphinha, Pepe, Werner, Martial, Welbeck, and so may others.

Similarly, Che has only: 1 less assist than Sterling, Firmino and Neto; the same number of assists as the likes of Mane, Willian, Pereira and Wilson; more assists than (to name but a few) Ings, Mahrez, Moura, Saint-Maximin, Salah, Watkins, Richarlison, Jesus, Martial, Saka, Aubemayang and Wood.

Could Che do better yes. Could we do better than Che? Only if we pay a shitload of money for a top, top, player and even then, looking at the fees paid for players he has outscored and assisted more goals than, there is no guarantee.

Che is good TEAM player. We play better when he is the team. He has a great partnership with Ings, which will hopefully still be the case next season and for for a few more seasons to come. If not, I fully expect Che to be part of a successful partnership with who ever we bring in to replace Danny.

That is interesting. I like Che.

[SKD]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Do you think Ings plays better with a stronger player up top with him, or with Che Adams in particular. We won’t know the answer to that until the alternative isn’t a lightweight converted winger. 

Seemed to do alright with long next time him for large parts of last season IIRC (memory might be skewed, but I’m pretty sure Long was the preferred choice over Che up until the lockdown pretty much). 

Edited 12 May, 2021 by SKD

[SaintTex]

Che has one less league goal this season than Sadio Mane with roughly the same minutes.

I guess we finally found Mane's replacement. 🙂

 

[TWar]

8 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Do you think Ings plays better with a stronger player up top with him, or with Che Adams in particular. We won’t know the answer to that until the alternative isn’t a lightweight converted winger. 

I think he is an excellent support striker. He is strong, fast, very intelligent, an excellent passer, has a great touch and takes up great positions. He undoubtedly makes Ings better imo. People are down on him because he is a below average finisher, but finishing isn't everything.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

I think he is an excellent support striker. He is strong, fast, very intelligent, an excellent passer, has a great touch and takes up great positions. He undoubtedly makes Ings better imo. People are down on him because he is a below average finisher, but finishing isn't everything.

If we were to think of him as an attacking midfielder who pops up with a few goals does that change our appreciation of him?

[TWar]

11 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

If we were to think of him as an attacking midfielder who pops up with a few goals does that change our appreciation of him?

Yeah, I think the best way to view a support striker is very similar to a 10 in a 4231. Our system is very similar to a 4231 tbh but with more flexible front 4

[Dan Johnson]

I think Che is improving consistently. 

He does need to become more clinical, though.

The Ings\Adams partnership is really blossoming, I hope they're our front two for the next 2/3 years as I think they're a 30 goal a season partnership if they stay fit all season. 

[Saint Billy]

11 minutes ago, Dan Johnson said:

I think Che is improving consistently. 

He does need to become more clinical, though.

The Ings\Adams partnership is really blossoming, I hope they're our front two for the next 2/3 years as I think they're a 30 goal a season partnership if they stay fit all season. 

That's all dependent on Ings staying fit which often he isn't. We need a striker who can produce the goods with or without Ings. 

[Saint_lambden]

Rarely have I seen a player that relies so much on confidence as with Adams. We've got a fair few in the squad like it (Redmond being the main other one) but his streaky goalscoring record tells you everything you need to know really. 

His biggest issue is composure and something that others have picked up on - that he seems to think about it too much rather than just instinctively finishing a chance off but when you're full of confidence, that tends to come naturally. 

Ralph used to be a striker and in Ings we've got a superb finisher so I'm sure they work with him on it but I guess there's only so much you can coach and the rest comes down to natural ability. 

In answer to the exam question - realistically no we probably can't do much better with the budget we have. 8 goals and 5 assists is a big uptick on his tally last season and his all round play is decent when he's got decent players with the ball around him to work with (Ings, Armstrong etc.). 

Hopefully he finishes the season strongly (mainly because I've got an 8/1 bet on him to finish on 10+ PL goals 🤣). 

[MarkSFC]

10 minutes ago, Saint_lambden said:

Rarely have I seen a player that relies so much on confidence as with Adams. We've got a fair few in the squad like it (Redmond being the main other one) but his streaky goalscoring record tells you everything you need to know really. 

His biggest issue is composure and something that others have picked up on - that he seems to think about it too much rather than just instinctively finishing a chance off but when you're full of confidence, that tends to come naturally. 

Ralph used to be a striker and in Ings we've got a superb finisher so I'm sure they work with him on it but I guess there's only so much you can coach and the rest comes down to natural ability. 

In answer to the exam question - realistically no we probably can't do much better with the budget we have. 8 goals and 5 assists is a big uptick on his tally last season and his all round play is decent when he's got decent players with the ball around him to work with (Ings, Armstrong etc.). 

Hopefully he finishes the season strongly (mainly because I've got an 8/1 bet on him to finish on 10+ PL goals 🤣). 

Pretty fair assessment. I think he's a good player who will improve. Sometimes you can over coach an athlete and give them too many thoughts which impacts instinctive behaviours. It's a fine balance when working with players who's self-confidence fluctuates to extremes. 

[Gingeletiss]

His goal, against Palace, was really really good, have a good look at it. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

10 hours ago, TWar said:

Yeah, I think the best way to view a support striker is very similar to a 10 in a 4231. Our system is very similar to a 4231 tbh but with more flexible front 4

What’s this “support striker” pony. We play 2 up top, sometimes Ings comes deeper and sometimes it’s Che. It’s not like Dalglish & Rush where Kenny clearly played in the 10. It strikes me that  “support striker” is another way of making excuses for his inconsistent finishing. 

[TWar]

14 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What’s this “support striker” pony. We play 2 up top, sometimes Ings comes deeper and sometimes it’s Che. It’s not like Dalglish & Rush where Kenny clearly played in the 10. It strikes me that  “support striker” is another way of making excuses for his inconsistent finishing. 

I would have thought you'd know about this as it is a pretty old-school strategy. Think Bergkamp, not many goals but great touch and great passer. Che is aiming to be a budget Bergkamp. Arsenal also played "2 up top" but compare Henry to Bergkamp in their roles in that side. Football tends to be a bit more complicated than "two up top, two strikers, both play the same role".

[Dusic]

One major plus point with Adams - as noted by Ralph this week is his availability and robustness.

An underrated attribute for any player, but loved by Managers.

For what we paid he has done well, especially this season. He has improved and shown signs he will continue to do so. Certainly a big improvement on Long and Austin in terms of goal involvement and availability.

Edited 13 May, 2021 by Dusic

[Whitey Grandad]

54 minutes ago, TWar said:

I would have thought you'd know about this as it is a pretty old-school strategy. Think Bergkamp, not many goals but great touch and great passer. Che is aiming to be a budget Bergkamp. Arsenal also played "2 up top" but compare Henry to Bergkamp in their roles in that side. Football tends to be a bit more complicated than "two up top, two strikers, both play the same role".

Historically the best goal scorers have operated in pairs - Shearer and Sutton come to mind.

[TWar]

14 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Historically the best goal scorers have operated in pairs - Shearer and Sutton come to mind.

Not really. Since 1993 the top scorer in the premier league has had a teammate in the top 5 a grand total of 4 times:

- 2004 Henry and Pires 

-2010 drogba and lampard (lampard isn't a striker) 

-2014 Suarez and Sturridge

-2020 Salah and Mane.

And only have had a team mate in the top 10 goal scorers 8 times out of 27. The vast majority of the time a top striker gets most of the goals and his team mates enable that. Unless what you mean is they operate in pairs in that one gets the goals and one makes the goals mostly, in which case I agree although threes are a lot more common since about 2005.

Edited 13 May, 2021 by TWar

[John B]

23 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Good post. Well worth his place just as long as you don't expect him to score twenty goals a season. If he did he wouldn't stay here long.

Yes I agree but I would have hoped he got at least 10 in the PL thats all

[Whitey Grandad]

8 minutes ago, John B said:

Yes I agree but I would have hoped he got at least 10 in the PL thats all

Eight goals so far with three games to go.  That seems pretty close to ten.

[Teddeer]

49 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Historically the best goal scorers have operated in pairs - Shearer and Sutton come to mind.

McDougall and Boyer were a superb front two for us.

[John B]

59 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Eight goals so far with three games to go.  That seems pretty close to ten.

According to my info he has played 64 games and scored 12 Goals in the PL which is what I was talking about

 

Che Adams Statistics | Premier League

[TWar]

7 minutes ago, John B said:

According to my info he has played 64 games and scored 12 Goals in the PL which is what I was talking about

 

Che Adams Statistics | Premier League

Listing number of games is a little harsh as a large number of those he came on as a sub very late on. Per minute he has 8 goals in 2539 minutes this season in the league and last season he managed 4 goals in 1105 minutes. This translates to 0.28 goals per 90 this season and 0.32 goals per 90 last season, at that rate if he starts more than 30 games a season he'd be on for a 10 goal season, he just hasn't had as many minutes as Ralph completely inexplicably favoured Redmond for a couple of months.

[John B]

5 hours ago, Gingeletiss said:

His goal, against Palace, was really really good, have a good look at it. 

I do not dispute he scores some good goals and I quite like how he plays but he does seem to miss quite a number too.

The PL is so competitive and wins are based on fine small  margins a couple of extra goals would have made so much difference to our season

For instance if we had beaten Wolves at home when we were well on top we would I think be 12th - do not know if Che was playing in that game but an extra goal in the first half may have led to another three points

[woodsaint1]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What’s this “support striker” pony. We play 2 up top, sometimes Ings comes deeper and sometimes it’s Che. It’s not like Dalglish & Rush where Kenny clearly played in the 10. It strikes me that  “support striker” is another way of making excuses for his inconsistent finishing. 

Think we all know that hes inconsistent. I would refer to him as a 'second striker' because hes not as good as Ings and doesnt score as many, its as plain and simple as that. But as has been shown repeatedly on here, Che's goals/assists stats for a 'second striker' are easily better than most other second strikers in the league. Yet some on here think we should be doing better

[Minsk]

On 12/05/2021 at 13:05, SKD said:

I can’t be bothered to read the whole post, but in terms of composure in front of goal, he very much is. I can’t remember the last time we went 1-1 with the keeper and stuck it away? Genuine question, when was the last time? 

I do apologise, I didn't realise I was attempting to debate with a child. Maybe don't bother asking questions if you don't want to read/hear a reply, which may just happen to challenge to your over opinionated view of any given matter. No wonder many on here accuse you of being a WUM or Skate when you act like a 6 year old putting his fingers in his ears and shouting 'La, La, La, I can't hear you' just because you are unable to validate your point of view other than by repeating the same 'well, that's what I think' over and over and over.  Anyone can sit and scream that they don't like something over and over without offering up reasonable alternatives. as you have done in the vast majority of your inane 4.5k+ posts.

Maybe you were just having an off day yesterday? I will give you benefit of the doubt and a bit of advise. If you do want to be taken seriously, or if you do want a serious discussion, actually take the time to read what others post and answer the points made. Try giving some balance to your viewpoint with something tangible, or by giving valid alternatives. Maybe go back and read all of my post from yesterday and reply to the points made (I shan't hold my breath) and if you do also consider, and respond to, the points below:

Danny and Che have had the exact amount of shots on goal thus far this season. However, Che has managed to get (one) more of his on target than Danny has. Danny obviously has 4 more goals than Che. So we can certainly Danny's shooting is more clinical - as In he puts the ball beyond the 'keeper/defenders than Che - as we all know. But, that aside, he misses the target as much as, indeed so far this season, more than Che. So if Che is (in your mind) 'absolutely dreadful' in front of goal, does that make Danny simply 'dreadful'?

Moreover, if you are saying that Che is 'absolutely dreadful' in front of goal because of the amount of big chances he has missed (which is certainly far more than Danny) does that mean any other player who has missed an equal number, or ore, of big chances is also 'absolutely dreadful' in front of goal? Just wondering, because so far this season that would include the likes of: Salah, Mane, Calvert-Lewin, Wood, Werner, Vardy and Bamford!

All that said, what do you reasonably suggest we do with Che? Sell him this close season, whether or not Danny also goes? If so, how much do you think we would get for him and who might we replace him with within our budget? Or should we persevere with him, given how well he works within our team and system?

[Lord Duckhunter]

7 hours ago, TWar said:

I would have thought you'd know about this as it is a pretty old-school strategy. Think Bergkamp, not many goals but great touch and great passer. Che is aiming to be a budget Bergkamp. Arsenal also played "2 up top" but compare Henry to Bergkamp in their roles in that side. Football tends to be a bit more complicated than "two up top, two strikers, both play the same role".

This is pony. You’re reinventing the role Adams plays to cover up his goal scoring record. He doesn’t drop into the 10 anymore than Ings does. I’d say Rickie Lambert under Poch floated about and created  more than Adams does. He’s one of a front two, simple as that. 
 

Woodsaint hits the nail on the head and is honest about it, instead of trying to come out with some old  pony that he’s a pound shop Berkamp. I’ve seen plenty of partnerships where one striker creates and plays between the lines, and as result isn’t as prolific as the other, but to suggest Che Adams does this is laughable. To say he’s second striker because he’s not as good as the first striker, is one thing. To try and claim he’s some sort of 10 is just pure pony. 

Edited 13 May, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[Convict Colony]

As a comparison

Che Adams 8 goals 5 Assists - cost 15m

Robert Firmino 6 goals 6 assists - 30mil a while ago

Timo Werner 6 goals 8 Assists - cost 50mil 

I think he's delivered for the money spent on him. 

[ErwinK1961]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

This is pony. You’re reinventing the role Adams plays to cover up his goal scoring record. He doesn’t drop into the 10 anymore than Ings does. I’d say Rickie Lambert under Poch floated about and created  more than Adams does. He’s one of a front two, simple as that. 
 

Woodsaint hits the nail on the head and is honest about it, instead of trying to come out with some old  pony that he’s a pound shop Berkamp. I’ve seen plenty of partnerships where one striker creates and plays between the lines, and as result isn’t as prolific as the other, but to suggest Che Adams does this is laughable. To say he’s second striker because he’s not as good as the first striker, is one thing. To try and claim he’s some sort of 10 is just pure pony. 

#ponywatch

[egg]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

This is pony. You’re reinventing the role Adams plays to cover up his goal scoring record. He doesn’t drop into the 10 anymore than Ings does. I’d say Rickie Lambert under Poch floated about and created  more than Adams does. He’s one of a front two, simple as that. 
 

Woodsaint hits the nail on the head and is honest about it, instead of trying to come out with some old  pony that he’s a pound shop Berkamp. I’ve seen plenty of partnerships where one striker creates and plays between the lines, and as result isn’t as prolific as the other, but to suggest Che Adams does this is laughable. To say he’s second striker because he’s not as good as the first striker, is one thing. To try and claim he’s some sort of 10 is just pure pony. 

To be fair, he's right about the "old school" approach. Adams and Ings is the like the old fashioned of way of playing 2 up top - one going long (playing off the shoulder of the last man - Ings) and one coming short (dropping deeper - Adams).

No pony here Duck. 

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, egg said:

To be fair, he's right about the "old school" approach. Adams and Ings is the like the old fashioned of way of playing 2 up top - one going long (playing off the shoulder of the last man - Ings) and one coming short (dropping deeper - Adams).

No pony here Duck. 

 

Ings comes short just as much  as Adams does. 

Edited 13 May, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[verlaine1979]

16 hours ago, Gingeletiss said:

His goal, against Palace, was really really good, have a good look at it. 

Nice goal, jammy finish. He got it because he went with the outside of his right, which is something he does because he can't use his left, not because he knows its a delicate wand of a foot.

Che isn't a good finisher, as the numerous one on ones he's scuffed straight at the keeper or wide of the post amply demonstrate. And at almost 25 years old, he's not going to improve now.

He's good enough for second choice, and nowhere near good enough as first. So it'll depend on what we find ourselves needing this summer.

[skintsaint]

7 hours ago, Convict Colony said:

As a comparison

Che Adams 8 goals 5 Assists - cost 15m

Robert Firmino 6 goals 6 assists - 30mil a while ago

Timo Werner 6 goals 8 Assists - cost 50mil 

I think he's delivered for the money spent on him. 

Plus...those other two play with much better players around them and I would image create more chances and opportunities. 

[Maggie May]

5 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

Nice goal, jammy finish. He got it because he went with the outside of his right, which is something he does because he can't use his left, not because he knows its a delicate wand of a foot.

Che isn't a good finisher, as the numerous one on ones he's scuffed straight at the keeper or wide of the post amply demonstrate. And at almost 25 years old, he's not going to improve now.

He's good enough for second choice, and nowhere near good enough as first. So it'll depend on what we find ourselves needing this summer.

Jammy finish? He scored, what more do you want?

It would be great for Che to kick on next season to bat away ridiculous posts like this. 

[verlaine1979]

10 minutes ago, Maggie May said:

Jammy finish? He scored, what more do you want?

It would be great for Che to kick on next season to bat away ridiculous posts like this. 

I want him to be a decent finisher, but he isn't.

Putting one in from 2 yards with the outside of his boot doesn't erase the host of much simpler chances he's wasted over the past few games.

[egg]

10 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Ings comes short just as much  as Adams does. 

Can't agree with that. Ings comes deep to press and defend, but he doesn't drop off the front man to link up play like Adams does, or Redmond when he's played up with him. They play different roles.

[Fan The Flames]

7 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

Nice goal, jammy finish. He got it because he went with the outside of his right, which is something he does because he can't use his left, not because he knows its a delicate wand of a foot.

Che isn't a good finisher, as the numerous one on ones he's scuffed straight at the keeper or wide of the post amply demonstrate. And at almost 25 years old, he's not going to improve now.

He's good enough for second choice, and nowhere near good enough as first. So it'll depend on what we find ourselves needing this summer.

Che gets rocks for being one footed and then gets no credit for scoring a nice goal with his favoured foot.

Saintsweb logic at it finest, the only reason it went in is because he is shit and one footed. Lucky he wasn't a better finisher because he may have missed.

[Charlie Wayman]

12 hours ago, ErwinK1961 said:

#ponywatch

The New Forest is full of Pony's right now

[TWar]

6 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

The New Forest is full of Pony's right now

When I was young a number of ponies accosted me and interrupted a picnic I was having in the new forest. Needless to say Duckhunters comments bring back some painful memories.