Che Adams - could Saints do better?

[Turkish]

I rate him, strong. Intelligent, his hold up and link up play are excellent. He does lack a bit of composure in front of goal, trying to hit it as hard as he can  when he gets a chance. If he could learn that he doesn’t need to smash it, Ian rush was one of the best finishers I’ve ever seen, he passed the ball into the net every single time, get the VHS cassettes out Che.

[influx]

1 hour ago, Diabolus Ex Machina said:

He's got 7 league goals with 8 games still to go this season. Apart from Danny Ings no Saints player has scored more than that in a season since the 2015-16 season (where Pelle and Mane were top scorers with 11 a piece and we finished 6th). He's doing just fine and at only 24 years old probably hasn't hit his peak either. He's got 4 assists to go with that as well a number which has only been topped since that 6th place finish twice by a Saints player by JWP this season (with 5 currently) and Tadic in 2016/17 (also with 5) so with 8 games left there's a good chance he could match or top that. To suggest he's not good enough for us is absolute b*llocks.

I can understand getting annoyed with him because with the chances he's missed he should be doing even better, but to me though that only suggests that there's even more to come from him and that he can be a key part of our team going forward. By all means if people have suggestions of proven goalscorers they'd get instead in our price range i'd like to hear them (we'll likely need one if Ings goes in the Summer anyway) but then again I also feel people have massively overinflated expectations of what sort of striker we should be able to get (i.e. unless you're playing for a top 6 team or your name is Jamie Vardy you are not getting 15+ goals a season and any strikers that can are certainly out of our price range - even Ings has only managed it once in his career so I wouldn't deem him as a proven 15+ goals a season striker for example). 

Spot on...   

Honestly,  why can't all Saints fans see this...?

[waylander]

12 hours ago, SKD said:

😂 behave. Much better player. 
 

Id argue the other 2 are as well. 

You clearly did not watch the Everton v Palace game earlier this week

[pimpin4rizeal]

I think this second striker talk is kind of making excuses for him also .  Ings has been carrying our main goal threat just because he’s the clinical striker not che, ings was also carrying it when we had long playing with him , both look like good foils for ings cos ings is class. And also these big men little men combinations don’t always favour the smaller faster striker look at Beattie and ormerod, was beatie a second striker just because he was the big guy with better hold up play ?

[Charlie Wayman]

He does exactly what it says on the tin, no more, no less. Of course we could do better with memories of Lambert still strongly in mind. Lambert may not have been the brightest striker on the planet but my goodness he had a lightning fast football brain. Che for all his qualities strikes me as a bull in a china shop.

[LiberalCommunist]

Rather than conjuring memories of Rickie, just think of Shane Long instead. That brings Che's stock up considerably. 

[Neef]

14 hours ago, Diabolus Ex Machina said:

He's got 7 league goals with 8 games still to go this season. Apart from Danny Ings no Saints player has scored more than that in a season since the 2015-16 season (where Pelle and Mane were top scorers with 11 a piece and we finished 6th). He's doing just fine and at only 24 years old probably hasn't hit his peak either. He's got 4 assists to go with that as well a number which has only been topped since that 6th place finish twice by a Saints player by JWP this season (with 5 currently) and Tadic in 2016/17 (also with 5) so with 8 games left there's a good chance he could match or top that. To suggest he's not good enough for us is absolute b*llocks.

I can understand getting annoyed with him because with the chances he's missed he should be doing even better, but to me though that only suggests that there's even more to come from him and that he can be a key part of our team going forward. By all means if people have suggestions of proven goalscorers they'd get instead in our price range i'd like to hear them (we'll likely need one if Ings goes in the Summer anyway) but then again I also feel people have massively overinflated expectations of what sort of striker we should be able to get (i.e. unless you're playing for a top 6 team or your name is Jamie Vardy you are not getting 15+ goals a season and any strikers that can are certainly out of our price range - even Ings has only managed it once in his career so I wouldn't deem him as a proven 15+ goals a season striker for example). 

Wow quite remarkable when you put in context like that. Nostaliga would have had me swear that Pelle socred more than 11 in that season. 

 

[Toadhall Saint]

16 hours ago, Diabolus Ex Machina said:

He's got 7 league goals with 8 games still to go this season. Apart from Danny Ings no Saints player has scored more than that in a season since the 2015-16 season (where Pelle and Mane were top scorers with 11 a piece and we finished 6th). He's doing just fine and at only 24 years old probably hasn't hit his peak either. He's got 4 assists to go with that as well a number which has only been topped since that 6th place finish twice by a Saints player by JWP this season (with 5 currently) and Tadic in 2016/17 (also with 5) so with 8 games left there's a good chance he could match or top that. To suggest he's not good enough for us is absolute b*llocks.

I can understand getting annoyed with him because with the chances he's missed he should be doing even better, but to me though that only suggests that there's even more to come from him and that he can be a key part of our team going forward. By all means if people have suggestions of proven goalscorers they'd get instead in our price range i'd like to hear them (we'll likely need one if Ings goes in the Summer anyway) but then again I also feel people have massively overinflated expectations of what sort of striker we should be able to get (i.e. unless you're playing for a top 6 team or your name is Jamie Vardy you are not getting 15+ goals a season and any strikers that can are certainly out of our price range - even Ings has only managed it once in his career so I wouldn't deem him as a proven 15+ goals a season striker for example). 

Thanks for that - good to have it in black and white.

👍

[Diabolus Ex Machina]

6 hours ago, pimpin4rizeal said:

I think this second striker talk is kind of making excuses for him also .  Ings has been carrying our main goal threat just because he’s the clinical striker not che, ings was also carrying it when we had long playing with him , both look like good foils for ings cos ings is class. And also these big men little men combinations don’t always favour the smaller faster striker look at Beattie and ormerod, was beatie a second striker just because he was the big guy with better hold up play ?

Not sure this is entirely true either. Again looking at the actual stats of both for this season you see the following...

Ings - 23 Appearances, 46 shots, 23 on target, 9 goals (2 penalties), 6 big chances missed, 3 big chances created, 4 assists

Adams – 29 appearances, 46 shots, 23 on target, 7 goals (0 penalties), 13 big chances missed, 8 big chances created, 4 assists

So they are pretty much on an even level this season overall - Ings has a couple more goals thanks to taking some penalties and has missed less easy chances but on the other hand Adams is creating more big chances for others.

I think it's those easy missed chances that are tainting a lot of peoples opinions on him as they stick in the memory more, plus it is his recent purple patch that has boosted his stats whereas Ings had a hot start to the season and so has probably been given a bit more leeway during his leaner more recent spell (plus he's got last years great form to fall back on unlike Che). He's still scoring from as many of his shots in open play as Ings though so his finishing can't be that bad. Ings is still undoubtedly the better of the two i'd say but people seem determined to downplay what Adams has accomplished.

[hypochondriac]

He's alright. He's not consistent enough but he's a mid to lower prem striker. 

[Saint_clark]

On 07/04/2021 at 15:10, SKD said:

What is this ‘second striker’ nonsense people bang on about? To me, it seems as if it’s an excuse for him being pretty poor in front of goal. 

Yep, we should have two 20 goal a season strikers up top.

[CB Fry]

2 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Yep, we should have two 20 goal a season strikers up top.

We also need one on the bench and one more in the squad to be adequate cover if one of those three becomes injured.

[Turkish]

5 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

He's alright. He's not consistent enough but he's a mid to lower prem striker. 

Perfect for us then 

[Turkish]

23 hours ago, Diabolus Ex Machina said:

He's got 7 league goals with 8 games still to go this season. Apart from Danny Ings no Saints player has scored more than that in a season since the 2015-16 season (where Pelle and Mane were top scorers with 11 a piece and we finished 6th). He's doing just fine and at only 24 years old probably hasn't hit his peak either. He's got 4 assists to go with that as well a number which has only been topped since that 6th place finish twice by a Saints player by JWP this season (with 5 currently) and Tadic in 2016/17 (also with 5) so with 8 games left there's a good chance he could match or top that. To suggest he's not good enough for us is absolute b*llocks.

I can understand getting annoyed with him because with the chances he's missed he should be doing even better, but to me though that only suggests that there's even more to come from him and that he can be a key part of our team going forward. By all means if people have suggestions of proven goalscorers they'd get instead in our price range i'd like to hear them (we'll likely need one if Ings goes in the Summer anyway) but then again I also feel people have massively overinflated expectations of what sort of striker we should be able to get (i.e. unless you're playing for a top 6 team or your name is Jamie Vardy you are not getting 15+ goals a season and any strikers that can are certainly out of our price range - even Ings has only managed it once in his career so I wouldn't deem him as a proven 15+ goals a season striker for example). 

He’s also been unlucky with marginal offsides and ref weirdness. Man U, Leeds sure there was another? He could quite easily be in double Figures with a bit more luck and composure. Definitely a player in there. I’ve got a feeling next season it might all Come together 

Edited 8 April, 2021 by Turkish

[SFC Forever]

I feel he is worth his place in the side because of his all out style of play. Always trying and is very good at keeping the ball and making chances for others. Think he will find his shooting boots as he grows more confident.

[hypochondriac]

7 hours ago, Turkish said:

Perfect for us then 

Yes for the moment. I wouldn't want to rely just on him and a youngster though when ings leaves. 

[SKD]

10 hours ago, Turkish said:

He’s also been unlucky with marginal offsides and ref weirdness. Man U, Leeds sure there was another? He could quite easily be in double Figures with a bit more luck and composure. Definitely a player in there. I’ve got a feeling next season it might all Come together 

I do agree with this and I do think his all round play up until the box is pretty tidy. Personally, I think he just lacks that natural instinct in front of goal. 
 

Could we do better - yes. 
Can we afford to do better - I’m not sure atm. 

[Give it to Ron]

37 minutes ago, SKD said:

I do agree with this and I do think his all round play up until the box is pretty tidy. Personally, I think he just lacks that natural instinct in front of goal. 
 

Could we do better - yes. 
Can we afford to do better - I’m not sure atm. 

So you think he belongs in Championship still or not?

[Teddeer]

Che is improving and is a valuable first team player but I do wonder why he can't seem to head the ball or use his left foot. Perhaps he is working on these aspects of his game but there is little or no sign of improvement.

[woodsaint1]

Not this question again. For our second best striker, a club of our size is not going to get a better option than Che. Yes hes frustrating in front of goal but id be more worried if he wasnt getting in them positions. He has contributely alot to our team, not just in goals but his build up play and physical presence which at times goes unnoticed. As has been pointed out previously, if you take the contributions of other 'second strikers' in the PL he is above the majority of those outside the top 6 clubs

[SKD]

22 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

So you think he belongs in Championship still or not?

Yes. I don’t think he’s prolific enough to be a premier league striker. 
 

 

[Matthew Le God]

3 minutes ago, SKD said:

Yes. I don’t think he’s prolific enough to be a premier league striker. 

How many goals would he need to score for it to 'be enough' to be a Premier League striker in a season?

Edited 9 April, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[woodsaint1]

2 minutes ago, SKD said:

Yes. I don’t think he’s prolific enough to be a premier league striker. 
 

 

Whats prolific enough to be a PL striker? Didnt know there was a threshold players had to reach 

[SKD]

Just now, Matthew Le God said:

How many goals would he need to score for it to 'be enough'?

It’s not about goals for me, it’s more so about his ability in front of goal. 

A number of better strikers might not score as many as him or worse ones score more. He lacks the natural ability to put the ball away. Similar to Long. 

[Matthew Le God]

Just now, SKD said:

It’s not about goals for me, it’s more so about his ability in front of goal. 

You effectively just said it was though. So if he scored 30 goals in a season but missed a huge amount more then he'd be a Championship striker due to all the misses?

[SKD]

2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

You effectively just said it was though. So if he scored 30 goals in a season but missed a huge amount more then he'd be a Championship striker due to all the misses?

He’ll never score 30 goals in the premier league (of any other to be fair) so it’s an irrelevant point.

But if he does, than maybe ill

change my opinion. 

Edited 9 April, 2021 by SKD

[Matthew Le God]

Just now, SKD said:

He’ll never score 30 goals in the premier league (of any other to be fair) so it’s an irrelevant point.

No it isn't. It was merely a figure to highlight the flaw in your thinking regarding ability in front of goal.

Put that aside then.

How many Premier League goals does a striker need to score for them to be a Premier League striker?

 

[SKD]

1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said:

No it isn't. It was merely a figure to highlight the flaw in your thinking regarding ability in front of goal.

Put that aside then.

How many Premier League goals does a striker need to score for them to be a Premier League striker?

 

Like I said, its not about goals for me. It’s natural ability in front of goal. He’s too slow to pull the trigger, composure is appalling and doesn’t have a left foot. 

3 pretty fundamental skills for a striker at the top level. 

Fair enough his hold up play, power and ability to press are pretty good (same was said about long last season, remember). 

As an out and out striker, for me, he’s not good enough. But I guess football is about opinions. 
 

If we’re relying on him as a senior Striker next season for goals, then he’ll be exactly that.. a championship player. 

[Convict Colony]

9 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

No it isn't. It was merely a figure to highlight the flaw in your thinking regarding ability in front of goal.

Put that aside then.

How many Premier League goals does a striker need to score for them to be a Premier League striker?

 

I'll take an arbitrary guess:

If you play with 2 strikers 

Main striker- gets 10 + goals and 5 assists

Support striker- gets 7+ goals and 7+ assists

 

I'd be happy with that from our 2 consistently

 

[Matthew Le God]

7 minutes ago, SKD said:

Like I said, its not about goals for me. It’s natural ability in front of goal. He’s too slow to pull the trigger, composure is appalling and doesn’t have a left foot. 

If we’re relying on him as a senior Striker next season for goals, then he’ll be exactly that.. a championship player. 

1) Can you not see the contradiction between those two statements?

2) How many goals would he need to score for you to overlook his finishing ability?

Edited 9 April, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[SKD]

1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said:

1) Can you not see the contradiction between those two statements?

2) How many goals would he need to score for you to overlook his finishing ability?

It’s not a contradiction, i’m not judging him on goals. Obviously that is a factor, but I’m judging him on watching him and seeing that in front of goals he’s absolutely garbage.

The comment about relying on him, was a statement of my judgement. As a sole or main striker, he will Not score us enough (because he’s not good enough) to stay in the league. 

Naturally, if his finishing improves (I don’t think it will, it’s a natural ability), then he’ll score more. If / when he starts putting the 1 on 1’s away or has a little morE finesse rather than just kicking it as hard as he can, then I’d expect him to get anywhere between 12-15 goals (based on the chances he misses). At that point, it’s probably fair to say he’s doing a decent job. 
 

 

[Matthew Le God]

12 minutes ago, SKD said:

I’d expect him to get anywhere between 12-15 goals (based on the chances he misses). At that point, it’s probably fair to say he’s doing a decent job. 

1)  Only 15 players scored 12 or more PL goals last season.

2) Only 12 players scored 15 or more PL goals last season.

Are there only 12 to 15 PL level strikers at the twenty clubs? 🤔 The majority of those 12 to 15 players are at the 'big 6'.

Not scoring 12 goals does not mean you are automatically Championship level.

Edited 9 April, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[SKD]

5 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

1)  Only 15 players scored 12 or more PL goals last season.

2) Only 12 players scored 15 or more PL goals last season.

Are there only 12 to 15 PL level strikers at the twenty clubs? 🤔

Not scoring 12 goals does not mean you are automatically Championship level.

I think there are a number of players who are in between being a championship and premier league player. Dwight Gale was a perfect example of this. Callum Wilson aside, most of those in and around us are exactly that. Judging on goals alone is a daft comparison though. Hence my comment about it not being about goals for me. 

Pukki, for example, is a much better natural finisher than Adams. Given the chances Adams has had, he would have score way more. Wilson, much better player, injured for some of the season. 

We have different opinions. Personally, I don’t rate him that highly and think we need to do better if we want to stay in the league. You rate him. Let’s agree to disagree. 

Edited 9 April, 2021 by SKD

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, SKD said:

I think there are a number of players who are in between being a championship and premier league player. Dwight Gale was a perfect example of this. Callum Wilson aside, most of those in and around us are exactly that. Judging on goals alone is a daft comparison though. Hence my comment about it not being about goals for me. 

Pukki, for example, is a much better natural finisher than Adams. Given the chances Adams has had, he would have score way more. Wilson, much better player, injured for some of the season. 

We have different opinions. Personally, I don’t rate him that highly and think we need to do better if we want to stay in the league. You rate him. Let’s agree to disagree. 

1) So you think a striker is either in the top 12-15 PL scorers and a Premier League striker or they are an inbetween PL/Championship player. Why can't a striker be a PL striker that isn't in the top 12 - 15 strikers and yet better than Championship level? 

2) Your example of Gayle isn't a great one, he is over 30 and at a very different stage of his career than Adams. Gayle at 30 years old has still yet to score more than 6 PL goals in a season. Adams has scored 7 in 29 games this season and is 6 years younger with room for improvement. So Adams has already surpassed Gayle.

[Gingeletiss]

40 minutes ago, SKD said:

Like I said, its not about goals for me. It’s natural ability in front of goal. He’s too slow to pull the trigger, composure is appalling and doesn’t have a left foot. 

3 pretty fundamental skills for a striker at the top level. 

Fair enough his hold up play, power and ability to press are pretty good (same was said about long last season, remember). 

As an out and out striker, for me, he’s not good enough. But I guess football is about opinions. 
 

If we’re relying on him as a senior Striker next season for goals, then he’ll be exactly that.. a championship player. 

You do talk some utter shite!

[SKD]

So in the last 2 seasons, Che has lost his place in the team to the 2 whipping boys in Long and Redmond. 
 

Can we do better? I think that’d suggest we could.

[Give it to Ron]

15 hours ago, SKD said:

So in the last 2 seasons, Che has lost his place in the team to the 2 whipping boys in Long and Redmond. 
 

Can we do better? I think that’d suggest we could.

Because we changed the shape can’t you see that Adams is different player to them?

 

[mrfahaji]

18 hours ago, SKD said:

So in the last 2 seasons, Che has lost his place in the team to the 2 whipping boys in Long and Redmond. 
 

Can we do better? I think that’d suggest we could.

I don't think your observations are unreasonable. Strikes me that his biggest weakness is composure. He scores scruffy goals and he scores great goals, but he doesn't score too many "calmly slotting the ball away" goals... and he has had a few notable chances like in that way that he's fluffed. As soon as he has time to think about what he's going to do, he makes a mess of it.

I'm probably in the camp of thinking we could definitely do better, but equally he's not someone we should be itching to get rid of. I'm never going to think "oh no, Adams is playing" but equally I'm not going to be massively worried if he's dropped or injured for the odd game.

[Saint Garrett]

We missed his physicality up front last night massively, the ball just didn't stick. I also think Ings is a better player when Adams plays.

[Roo1976]

23 hours ago, SKD said:

So in the last 2 seasons, Che has lost his place in the team to the 2 whipping boys in Long and Redmond. 
 

Can we do better? I think that’d suggest we could.

Not with our bank balance we cant..............Tella seems to have been overlooked at this time not sure hes done too much wrong.

[Saint Garrett]

Another very impressive performance from Che tonight…worked imperiously and held the ball up. 

[SKD]

8 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

Another very impressive performance from Che tonight…worked imperiously and held the ball up. 

I don’t think anyone doubted his work rate and hold up play, that he’s pretty good at. 
 

It’s is woeful finishing in front of goal which is the issue and one a club like us can’t afford, especially when he’s the main man next season. 
 

Funny enough, last night suited his game down to a tee. 

[Teddeer]

Agree. He worked his socks off for the team, Against a strong line of defenders he managed to hold the ball for us when the odds were stacked against him. This was so important as it enabled us to get players forward in support and kept Leicester on their toes once we were down to ten. We can all agree that his finishing needs work but last night he showed his strength and skill as a battling centre forward and no little intelligence as well. Che played a crucial role in gaining a very good point.

[Saint Garrett]

3 minutes ago, SKD said:

I don’t think anyone doubted his work rate and hold up play, that he’s pretty good at. 
 

It’s is woeful finishing in front of goal which is the issue and one a club like us can’t afford, especially when he’s the main man next season. 
 

Funny enough, last night suited his game down to a tee. 

If he gets 10 goals a season. Then I don’t think that’s a bad return, he’s not a “goalscorer” as such, but he offers way more than that. Appreciate the fact we do need a goalscorer, but with Ings I think that’s probably fine. 
 

We are a better side when he is in the team, and would be 1 of the first on the team sheet most weeks for me.

[CB Fry]

22 minutes ago, SKD said:

I don’t think anyone doubted his work rate and hold up play, that he’s pretty good at. 
 

It’s is woeful finishing in front of goal which is the issue and one a club like us can’t afford, especially when he’s the main man next season. 
 

Funny enough, last night suited his game down to a tee. 

But other "clubs like us" don't all have mega-prolific goalscorers, either.

Adams getting 10 a season is exactly what we can reasonably expect.

He won't be the main man next season, we will have another front line striker.

[LiberalCommunist]

Ran himself into the ground last night. I really like the lad. 

Funny that there was a energy, an urgency & a togetherness that we haven't seen for ages and some big names were missing.

Ralph has been given a little look at next season, lets hope he doesn't cock it up. Got some good building blocks to work with. 

 

[egg]

9 minutes ago, LiberalCommunist said:

Ran himself into the ground last night. I really like the lad. 

Funny that there was a energy, an urgency & a togetherness that we haven't seen for ages and some big names were missing.

Ralph has been given a little look at next season, lets hope he doesn't cock it up. Got some good building blocks to work with. 

 

I'm with you on Adams. He's far from perfect, but he put in a hell of a shift defending from the front and doing his best to give us an out ball. 

The bold bit is my thoughts exactly. For a while I'd wandered of Ralph has lost the dressing room, or at least part of it. We had a few lads missing last night and we played with a commitment, and as a team, in a way that I haven't seen in a while. 

[Give it to Ron]

47 minutes ago, SKD said:

I don’t think anyone doubted his work rate and hold up play, that he’s pretty good at. 
 

It’s is woeful finishing in front of goal which is the issue and one a club like us can’t afford, especially when he’s the main man next season. 
 

Funny enough, last night suited his game down to a tee. 

Good enough for a Prem striker or Championship hold up play?

[JustinSFC]

I don't care what anyone says, this lad is a great signing for £10m quid.

[MarkSFC]

I like Che Adams and I think over the next 2 or 3 seasons he will turn into a really decent 2nd striker. His stats are already better than Shane Longs. I am comparing with Long because he was always the 2nd (or latterly 3rd choice striker). Long averaged a PL goal for us every 6.8 games, Adams is at every 5.5 games. Long scored 10 in one season but other than that never got past 5. Adams in season 1 got 4 and this season is on 7. It's pretty certain he will get better, especially if we get better players around him. Its also clear that Ings play better with him than anyone else. Whether he stays or not or is fit often enough, only time will tell but either way I hope Adams is here for while yet.