Coronavirus

[Lighthouse]

6 minutes ago, buctootim said:

What a bizarre post. Yes if it were a choice between being infected with a serious virus or taking a new vaccine that of course I'd take the vaccine. Doh. Brilliant point

But that isnt the choice. Its a choice between waiting four months until my age group gets offered a vaccine and then opting to make an informed choice.    

That is the choice. If the vaccine is available, that’s the choice you are making every day until you get vaccinated. Why your imposing this arbitrary four month guinea-pig period on the rest of the population I don’t know.

 

It’s passed all the trials the best medical brains in the world can throw at it. What you’re proposing is a some-what cowardly view of waiting for a whole bunch of other people to take it first and seeing if they get sick. It’s passed all the trials it needs to in order to be approved; you haven’t even hypothesised what might be wrong with it, 

[Whitey Grandad]

13 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Exactly. And with the half first dose it is 90% effective. 

The issue with the Pfizer vaccine will be storage which needs to be kept at -80c, thawed slowly and then used quickly despite coming in batches of 480. Any hiccup will compromise its efficacy.

Even with conventional vaccines which only need a fridge there is a 25% loss rate 

There is some question about that. The sample that accidentally received the half dose was relatively small, I believe.

[Whitey Grandad]

54 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Exactly. And with the half first dose it is 90% effective. 

The issue with the Pfizer vaccine will be storage which needs to be kept at -80c, thawed slowly and then used quickly despite coming in batches of 480. Any hiccup will compromise its efficacy.

Even with conventional vaccines which only need a fridge there is a 25% loss rate 

 

Edited 3 December, 2020 by Whitey Grandad
Duplicate

[Weston Super Saint]

10 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Exactly. And with the half first dose it is 90% effective. 

The issue with the Pfizer vaccine will be storage which needs to be kept at -80c, thawed slowly and then used quickly despite coming in batches of 480. Any hiccup will compromise its efficacy.

Even with conventional vaccines which only need a fridge there is a 25% loss rate 

Your posts should come with a little banner at the bottom like trump's Twitter posts.

It needs to be kept at -70c and comes in it's own container designed by Pfizer that uses dry ice, not exactly the hardest thing to get your hands on.

Once thawed it can be stored in a fridge for up to five days. That's not exactly 'having to use it quickly' given that the rest of the population other than you, will be queing up to get their shots. 

[buctootim]

29 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Your posts should come with a little banner at the bottom like trump's Twitter posts.

It needs to be kept at -70c and comes in it's own container designed by Pfizer that uses dry ice, not exactly the hardest thing to get your hands on.

Once thawed it can be stored in a fridge for up to five days. That's not exactly 'having to use it quickly' given that the rest of the population other than you, will be queing up to get their shots. 

As I said thick and dull .

Dry ice gasifies at temperatures warmer than -78c, hence why it will need to be kept at -80c or below.

NHS England are telling GPs they will have to take delivery 975 doses at a time. It takes about 12 minutes to vaccinate somebody including health questions and inputting patient data. So for a GP’s surgery using one dedicated nurse that’s approx 35 slots a day or 175 in the five day usable period . Only around 85% of people turn up so that’s down to about 150. So every GPs surgery would need seven nurses working full time to make near full use of one canister. Most surgeries operate with one or two nurses 

The Pfizer vaccine is a logistical nightmare and unless all the other conventional candidates fail massively you can be sure this one will hardly be used in a few months time 

Edited 3 December, 2020 by buctootim

[Jimmy_D]

2 minutes ago, buctootim said:

As I said thick and dull .

Dry ice gasifies at temperatures warmer than -78c, hence why it will need to be kept at -80c or below.

NHS England are telling GPs they will have to take delivery 975 doses at a time. It takes about 12 minutes to vaccinate somebody including health questions and inputting patient data. So for a GP’s surgery using one dedicated nurse that’s approx 35 slots a day or 175 in the five day usable period . Only around 85% of people turn up so that’s down to about 150. So every GPs surgery would need six nurses working full time to make near full use of one canister. Most surgeries operate with one or two nurses 

The Pfizer vaccine is a logistical nightmare and unless all the tithed conventional candidates fail massively you can be sure this one will hardly be used in a years time 

Why would they only use one or two nurses at a dedicated vaccine centre while it's being rolled out!?

As for it being hardly used in a year's time, I'd hope the vaccine rollout programme won't take anywhere near that long, all of them will be hardly used in a year's time.

[buctootim]

3 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

Why would they only use one or two nurses at a dedicated vaccine centre while it's being rolled out!?

As for it being hardly used in a year's time, I'd hope the vaccine rollout programme won't take anywhere near that long, all of them will be hardly used in a year's time.

We're talking about GP practices. To use one full canister you'd need seven bodies administering full time to use 975 doses in a week. That means in practice all the GPs will need to be co-opted too, with all that means for other medical care.    

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

Why would they only use one or two nurses at a dedicated vaccine centre while it's being rolled out!?

Don't worry about Timmy, he's just a little bit deluded. He clearly thinks this once in a lifetime virus that has killed hundreds of thousands of people will be vaccinated in the same way that kids get their MMR jabs.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 minutes ago, buctootim said:

We're talking about GP practices. To use one full canister you'd need seven bodies administering full time to use 975 doses in a week. That means in practice all the GPs will need to be co-opted too, with all that means for other medical care.    

Where's that banner gone...

It's magically gone up from 480 doses to 975.

Perhaps they ran out of smaller bottles, oh wait, no, that's right, there won't be a need to thaw out all of the bottles at the same time, unless you think it's going to arrive in one big bottle 

[buctootim]

Just now, Weston Super Saint said:

Where's that banner gone...

It's magically gone up from 480 doses to 975.

Perhaps they ran out of smaller bottles, oh wait, no, that's right, there won't be a need to thaw out all of the bottles at the same time, unless you think it's going to arrive in one big bottle 

You'll have to ask NHS England my little pub floor cleaner / vaccine expert. That is the number they have decided upon, presumably two canisters. 

[Jimmy_D]

9 minutes ago, buctootim said:

We're talking about GP practices. To use one full canister you'd need seven bodies administering full time to use 975 doses in a week. That means in practice all the GPs will need to be co-opted too, with all that means for other medical care.    

You're assuming they can't assign the paperwork to other staff and let nurses go far faster than you've assumed. Also that they won't be dragging in every nurse with the authority to administer injections to staff this.

Just yesterday, COVID 19 killed more people in a day in the USA than the September 11th attacks. This vaccine isn't the easiest logistically, but those logistic problems are solvable, and it's available now to start saving lives.

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, buctootim said:

We're talking about GP practices. To use one full canister you'd need seven bodies administering full time to use 975 doses in a week. That means in practice all the GPs will need to be co-opted too, with all that means for other medical care.    

Why this self-imposed criteria of needing one canister for one GP surgery?

Personally I'm hoping for and expecting large, temporary vaccination centres with dozens of retired doctors, nurses and other volunteers administering literally hundreds of vaccines per day. IF they are being administered at a GP surgery, which seems an unnecessary drain on their resources, there’s no reason a van with a few dozen doses can’t be dispatched from from a nearby vaccination or distribution centre. When I had my school booster jabs, they got the whole of year 9 done in the same morning.

[buctootim]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

You're assuming they can't assign the paperwork to other staff and let nurses go far faster than you've assumed. Also that they won't be dragging in every nurse with the authority to administer injections to staff this.

Just yesterday, COVID 19 killed more people in a day than the September 11th attacks. This vaccine isn't the easiest logistically, but those logistic problems are solvable, and it's available now to start saving lives.

Where do you think all these extra trained staff will be coming from? Are you proposing they stop all other healthcare?   That would be the best way to really see the death rate shoot up. 

Edited 3 December, 2020 by buctootim

[buctootim]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Why this self-imposed criteria of needing one canister for one GP surgery?

Personally I'm hoping for and expecting large, temporary vaccination centres with dozens of retired doctors, nurses and other volunteers administering literally hundreds of vaccines per day. IF they are being administered at a GP surgery, which seems an unnecessary drain on their resources, there’s no reason a van with a few dozen doses can’t be dispatched from from a nearby vaccination or distribution centre. When I had my school booster jabs, they got the whole of year 9 done in the same morning.

As I said take it up with NHS England. They have stipulated thats the size of the delivery and GPs needed fridge capacity in place by December 1st. 

[Weston Super Saint]

6 minutes ago, buctootim said:

You'll have to ask NHS England my little pub floor cleaner / vaccine expert. That is the number they have decided upon, presumably two canisters. 

No need. Even a simple search will show you that the vaccine will come in small bottles.

Here's an idea, if you're stuck on the idea that they will have to be administered from GP surgeries, they could distribute the smaller bottles amongst a number of practices and have a number of nurses giving injections at the same time. That would be novel wouldn't it...

 

[Jimmy_D]

Just now, buctootim said:

Where do you think all these extra trained staff will be coming from? Are you proposing they stop all other healthcare?   

I'd assume they'll be using the staff that were encouraged back out of retirement at the start of this pandemic as part of the Nightingale effort, as well as offering overtime and extra shifts to get this to happen.

You sound like the NHS always has staff running at 100% of capacity, and that it can't handle any extra load for a relatively short time when the need arises.

This vaccination programme is going to be rolled out as fast as possible, that would be true regardless of the particular vaccine being used.

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Where do you think all these extra trained staff will be coming from? Are you proposing they stop all other healthcare?   That would be the best way to really see the death rate shoot up. 

 

1 minute ago, buctootim said:

As I said take it up with NHS England. They have stipulated thats the size of the delivery and GPs needed fridge capacity in place by December 1st. 

Why this defeatist attitude? I can understand people having doubts over what they’re being injected with, even if it’s by far the lesser of the two evils but this is clinging at logistical straws.

The best medical brains in the world have been working flat out to develop, test and approve a vaccine with a near miraculous success rate and you’re complaining about fridge space and volunteer nurses.

For the record, my mother is a retired radiographer and was recently asked by the NHS to be re-admitted to their register, in case extra staff were needed short term. These are exactly the kinds of people who can be readily asked and trained to administer a simple jab in a school sports hall, community hall or similar.

[Weston Super Saint]

7 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Where do you think all these extra trained staff will be coming from? Are you proposing they stop all other healthcare?   That would be the best way to really see the death rate shoot up. 

Jesus wept.

It's an injection. Dentists can do it, vets can do it, nurses can do it, Army medics can do it, doctors can it. Medical students can do it.

No wonder you don't have the ability to be inventive!!

[Lighthouse]

F**k it, give me one of these and I’ll do 975 a week by myself.

[Turkish]

18 minutes ago, buctootim said:

You'll have to ask NHS England my little pub floor cleaner / vaccine expert. That is the number they have decided upon, presumably two canisters. 

You don’t really believe all the sh-te you’ve posted on this thread do you? 

[buctootim]

5 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

 

Why this defeatist attitude? I can understand people having doubts over what they’re being injected with, even if it’s by far the lesser of the two evils but this is clinging at logistical straws.

The best medical brains in the world have been working flat out to develop, test and approve a vaccine with a near miraculous success rate and you’re complaining about fridge space and volunteer nurses.

For the record, my mother is a retired radiographer and was recently asked by the NHS to be re-admitted to their register, in case extra staff were needed short term. These are exactly the kinds of people who can be readily asked and trained to administer a simple jab in a school sports hall, community hall or similar.

You seriously think the NHS have staff standing around not doing anything in case a pandemic comes by? This will require them to stop doing their exiting work, which will have huge health consequences. It may be justified by the thrreeat of covid but lets not be dumb enough to pretend there wont be an impact 

I would upload the letter but cant post pdfs here 

[buctootim]

https://www.england.nhs.uk/coronavirus/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2020/12/C0917-COVID-19-vaccination-programme-2020-21-next-steps-1-December-2020.pdf

[Jimmy_D]

1 minute ago, buctootim said:

https://www.england.nhs.uk/coronavirus/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2020/12/C0917-COVID-19-vaccination-programme-2020-21-next-steps-1-December-2020.pdf

So basically they're already solving the logistical problems.

[Lighthouse]

8 minutes ago, buctootim said:

You seriously think the NHS have staff standing around not doing anything in case a pandemic comes by? This will require them to stop doing their exiting work, which will have huge health consequences. It may be justified by the thrreeat of covid but lets not be dumb enough to pretend there wont be an impact 

I would upload the letter but cant post pdfs here 

Three people have just explained to you and you ignore them. This doesn’t require an hour long consult with a vascular oncologist. Retired doctors, nurses, radiographers, army medics, vets, student medics, heroin addicts...

 

What do you think is a bigger drain on the NHS - Gav from the paratroop regiment sticking a syringe in someone’s tricep for 10 seconds or three weeks hooked up to an iron lung in ICU, being pumped full of steroids by doctors and nurses, who have to run out and change their PPE every 20 minutes?

[buctootim]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Lol. I’m sure as lighthouse is on this thread he’ll deal with the first bit which is breach of forum t&cs. as for the second bit you do know the stationary thing wasn’t true don’t you? It was mere jape.

No I didnt. I don't have a problem with whatever you do except when you try and tell somebody who used to run services like this and whose partner is a doctor who will have to deliver it, how the programme will pan out.  

[buctootim]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Three people have just explained to you and you ignore them. This doesn’t require an hour long consult with a vascular oncologist. Retired doctors, nurses, radiographers, army medics, vets, student medics, heroin addicts.

 

What do you think is a bigger drain on the NHS - Gav from the paratroop regiment sticking a syringe in someone’s tricep for 10 seconds or three weeks hooked up to an iron lung in ICU, being pumped full of steroids by doctors and nurses, who have to run out and change their PPE every 20 minutes?

And therein your absolute ignorance is displayed.  

[Turkish]

Just now, buctootim said:

No I didnt. I don't have a problem with whatever you do except when you try and tell somebody who used to run services like this and whose partner is a doctor who will have to deliver it, how the programme will pan out.  

I didn’t tell you how it would run, I said surely you don’t believe the sh2t you post. That’s not the same.

[buctootim]

3 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

So basically they're already solving the logistical problems.

Nope. They fhacent even got delivery centres chosen yet. You wont know what the logistic challenges are until you know where and how many  

[buctootim]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

I didn’t tell you how it would run, I said surely you don’t believe the sh2t you post. That’s not the same.

Kinda linked. If you think its shit then surely you must have some idea of how it will / should be run

 

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Three people have just explained to you and you ignore them. This doesn’t require an hour long consult with a vascular oncologist. Retired doctors, nurses, radiographers, army medics, vets, student medics, heroin addicts...

 

What do you think is a bigger drain on the NHS - Gav from the paratroop regiment sticking a syringe in someone’s tricep for 10 seconds or three weeks hooked up to an iron lung in ICU, being pumped full of steroids by doctors and nurses, who have to run out and change their PPE every 20 minutes?

When I got my flu jab I was in and out in about 2 minutes. Yet Timmy thinks their going to have one nurse per doctors surgery running the biggest vaccine rollout in history. 😂 

[buctootim]

Just now, ecuk268 said:

He's an expert in things that don't move?

'E' 'A' all much the same   

[buctootim]

Just now, Turkish said:

When I got my flu jab I was in and out in about 2 minutes. Yet Timmy thinks their going to have one nurse per doctors surgery running the biggest vaccine rollout in history. 😂 

Ah back to trying to be Trump. Didnt say that, sorry. 

[Turkish]

Just now, buctootim said:

Kinda linked. If you think its shit then surely you must have some idea of how it will / should be run

 

I don’t for one second think they’re going to have the biggest vaccine roll out in history done by one nurse per surgery pal that’s for sure 

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

4 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Ah back to trying to be Trump. Didnt say that, sorry. 

you said it with your fag packet maths when calling Weston think and dull- look up the thread I’m sure you can find it
 

so because We don’t agree with you I’m trump, Weston is a pub floor cleaner and lighthouse is ignorant. Okay got it, now you’ll probably pretend you never said any of that either

Edited 3 December, 2020 by Turkish

[Jimmy_D]

1 minute ago, buctootim said:

Nope. They fhacent even got delivery centres chosen yet. You wont know what the logistic challenges are until you know where and how many  

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-pfizer-vaccine-nhs-hospitals-b1765222.html

Must have imagined reading this then.

I don't get what you're trying to argue now. Do you think that they shouldn't be doing a vaccine programme for a virus that causing a worldwide pandemic and causing unprecedented pressure on the NHS because the vaccine programme will put pressure on the NHS?

 

[Lighthouse]

11 minutes ago, buctootim said:

And therein your absolute ignorance is displayed.  

You’re just pissed off that it’s not a suppository.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, buctootim said:

 Are you proposing they stop all other healthcare?   That would be the best way to really see the death rate shoot up. 

That’s pretty much what happened in March. Glad you’ve seen the light & now realise the self imposed damage done by  lockdown hardliners. 

[buctootim]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

That’s pretty much what happened in March. Glad you’ve seen the light & now realise the self imposed damage done by  lockdown hardliners. 

I was never in that group. In fact I took flak on here, including from you for advocating not locking down. You were one of the thought Nazis who changed their mind   

Edited 3 December, 2020 by buctootim

[whelk]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

When I got my flu jab I was in and out in about 2 minutes. Yet Timmy thinks their going to have one nurse per doctors surgery running the biggest vaccine rollout in history. 😂 

What you doing getting a flu jab?  I had you down as a strong alpha male

[Lord Duckhunter]

On 15/03/2020 at 14:15, buctootim said:

 

I'm not qualified to critique the different approaches - but it seems to me that the Chinese / Taiwanese / Italian approach buys you more time to get health services prepared. 

 

17 minutes ago, buctootim said:

I was never in that group. In fact I took flak on here, including from you for advocating not locking down. 

Did Italy & China not lockdown then. 
 

At least some of us Nazis admitted we were wrong, and didn’t try and pretend we were right all along. 

Edited 3 December, 2020 by Lord Duckhunter

[whelk]

My word if you are going back looking at post history you have the most to be embarrassed about by a country mile. 
 

[Whitey Grandad]

It’s one helluva operation to organise the distribution and whoever has to do out has my complete respect but what concerns me more than getting the vaccine out there is organising the Great British Public into turning up at the right place and the right time not just once but also for the second jab 21 days later.

What are the chances of that?

[Millbrook Saint]

I recently had my flu jab, got a letter from my doc telling me to go to the health centre between 0830 and 1100.  Got there at 1030, massive queue snaking round the block and to a row of shops, I joined the queue thinking I'd be there for hours, turned out is was no longer than 15 minutes, they had 4 or 5 nurses doing the jabs, all well organised in and out in no time, I'm sure it will be scaled up and thought it will be tough it is well doable

[Fan The Flames]

I'm involved in the rolling out of a vaccine centre in my hospital. As many have said the Pfizer vaccine is coming in batches that contain shots in the mid 900 (I heard both 950 & 975), it's transported at -70 but can then be stored in a normal drugs fridge. It has to be used in 5 days.

However we have planned for stuff in the past and its all changed at the last minute, so its probably wait and see what batch size they come in.

The nursing team are working on 10 minute slots to start with. So they are going to have 4 nurses 8 hours doing the injections. The nurses are the flu jab nurses and nurses pulled from wards or community teams. This service at my hospital is only for health care staff and not the general public, I can only guess when that gets going it's going to be from bigger centres than this.

One of the biggest challenges is keeping the service going over the weekend (no one wants to work weekends), because its not guaranteed that the delivery will cone first thing on a Monday. That would be too neat.

[LGTL]

Are GP surgeries actually bothering to open now the vaccine is here then? That’s jolly nice of them, seeing as the doors are still barricaded up and you’re treated like you’re about to kill them if you dare try to make an appointment. 

[Barry the Badger]

When I got my flu jab this year I was quite impressed. They did it on a Saturday, you booked in for a time, walked up to the door and somebody checked you were on the list, then ushered into the next available room, walked in, nurse administered jab, then ushered out. I would be surprised if I was in the building for 60 seconds. 
 

They must’ve done hundreds of people in that day.

[View From The Top]

This is what we should have done for secondary and tertiary. 

They've been a massive driver of infections in my part of the world.

https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN28D1TF?__twitter_impression=true

[Doctoroncall]

9 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 

Did Italy & China not lockdown then. 
 

The strategies deployed by the two countries are incomparable!

[Turkish]

10 hours ago, whelk said:

What you doing getting a flu jab?  I had you down as a strong alpha male

that's why i'm a strong alpha male pal, look after myself, if a flu jab is available then it's silly not to take advantage for the sake of £12 or whatever it is, given catching (proper) flu will screw you for a couple of weeks. While many of you were crying into your cornflakes this morning running through all the permutations of what could go wrong with the vaccine roll out by those nasty tories i've got on with my life i've smashed a crossfit work out, taken my son to school, held our weekly EMEA forecast call (those printer cartridges arent going to sell themselves) and still found time to post on here.

Edited 4 December, 2020 by Turkish

[whelk]

10 minutes ago, Turkish said:

that's why i'm a strong alpha male pal, look after myself, if a flu jab is available then it's silly not to take advantage for the sake of £12 or whatever it is, given catching (proper) flu will screw you for a couple of weeks. While many of you were crying into your cornflakes this morning running through all the permutations of what could go wrong with the vaccine roll out by those nasty tories i've got on with my life i've smashed a crossfit work out, taken my son to school, held our weekly EMEA forecast call (those printer cartridges arent going to sell themselves) and still found time to post on here.

That’s fair enough, some people worry more than others. Me? I’ve had a couple days off sick in past 20 years. So based on evidence not really worried of catching the flu.

String genes, my kids were/are never off school either.  Also given social contact is much reduced I’d rather spend my £12 saving up for an Xbox