Coronavirus

[buctootim]

Hard to know what to believe. Have they ditched all the experts wheeled out to tell us masks were a waste of time? Turns out now should be worn everywhere.

Not that they didn’t want a run in masks by any chance?

 

Surgical masks are to catch any snot or saliva from the wearer and avoid infecting other people, not to protect the wearer

[whelk]

Well done Priti Patel for getting shoplifting down on same time last year.

[whelk]

Surgical masks are to catch any snot or saliva from the wearer and avoid infecting other people, not to protect the wearer

 

Indeed so would have been worth wearing a while back then

[egg]

Indeed so would have been worth wearing a while back then

 

Quite. It's pretty obvious that the virus is spread on the streets and shops by people carrying the virus, and that if they were wearing a mask they'd be less likely to spread the virus. It's hard to see an argument against masks being worn - they protect all of us if they prevent transmission.

Edited 26 April, 2020 by egg

[Lighthouse]

Quite. It's pretty obvious that the virus is spread on the streets and shops by people carrying the virus, and that if they were wearing a mask they'd be less likely to spread the virus. It's hard to see an argument against masks being worn.

 

I don't think there ever was one. I think if anything the government were playing up the doubt to try and stop people from panic buying supplies which are needed for healthcare workers.

 

A mask can't not help. Anything which acts as a barrier for aerosols is going to provide some form of protection, even if it isn't 100% guaranteed. This is going to form part of the strategy for reopening businesses. Masks will probably end up being compulsory in some establishments, just as soon as we can secure a reliable supply of them.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Quite. It's pretty obvious that the virus is spread on the streets and shops by people carrying the virus, and that if they were wearing a mask they'd be less likely to spread the virus. It's hard to see an argument against masks being worn.

 

My snap dragon & a number of her colleagues believe they can do more damage then good when worn by amateurs.

 

We’ve had long conversations about this (as I’m still working), and she’s taken advise from senior people in her hospital. A mask tends to get fiddled with, as it’s uncomfortable and unusual to wear. It is far worse for an infected person to be fiddling with their mask, than not wearing one. Also people may not be as careful as they should, thinking the mask is a barrier, when the reality is their fiddling with it has transferred the virus to their hands.

 

Their feeling is it’s only useful if you want to give people confidence to go out, however, masking the general population will create too much demand and will also lead to people that shouldn’t go out (for example someone with a cough) still going out because they think the mask will stop them infecting others.

 

 

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Edited 26 April, 2020 by Lord Duckhunter

[buctootim]

My snap dragon & a number of her colleagues believe they can do more damage then good when worn by amateurs.

 

We’ve had long conversations about this (as I’m still working), and she’s taken advise from senior people in her hospital. A mask tends to get fiddled with, as it’s uncomfortable and unusual to wear. It is far worse for an infected person to be fiddling with their mask, than not wearing one. Also people may not be as careful as they should, thinking the mask is a barrier, when the reality is their fiddling with it has transferred the virus to their hands.

 

Their feeling is it’s only useful if you want to give people confidence to go out, however, masking the general population will create too much demand and will also lead to people that shouldn’t go out (for example someone with a cough) still going out because they think the mask will stop them infecting others.

 

All that is true. You can mitigate it by changing masks as soon as it starts to get damp, but most non healthcare professionals won't.

[Whitey Grandad]

Quite. It's pretty obvious that the virus is spread on the streets and shops by people carrying the virus, and that if they were wearing a mask they'd be less likely to spread the virus. It's hard to see an argument against masks being worn - they protect all of us if they prevent transmission.

 

Very true. Wearing a mask is seen as common courtesy in many East Asian countries.

[shurlock]

Got a number of masks from living and working in Asia. My medical friends out there don’t understand why they’re not worn more widely over here. As for the fiddling, it just requires a bit of practice and adaptation and as they point out, provided it’s just fiddling with the edges or the straps (obviously to be avoided), it isn’t going to make much difference. Bigger issue is supply and demand and needs of the medical community (in Asian countries, they’re centrally rationed and distributed and substitutable with decent home-made masks) and the risks of complacency (i.e. people ignore social distancing rules and handwashing because they think they’re safe in much the same some may drive faster because they’re wearing seatbelts). But again it’s not a universal thing: for me, making the effort to wear a mask, makes me more attentive or alert to not being a dickh**d outdoors.

Edited 26 April, 2020 by shurlock

[Kingsland Codger]

Has anyone worn a simple medical facemask?

 

I have a few left in a packet I purchased from when I was last in Tokyo. They are simple enough to use but not immediately obvious to distinguish the back from the front. I could be wearing one, remove it to have a drink or a sandwich and then put it back the wrong way round without realising. Thus putting any virus that might have been on the outside directly into my breathing area. A simple (but possible deadly) error.

 

My obvious advice to those who might have a similar style of mask and be unfamiliar with wearing one ... put some kind of mark on the mask so that you will know which side is which.

[shurlock]

Has anyone worn a simple medical facemask?

 

I have a few left in a packet I purchased from when I was last in Tokyo. They are simple enough to use but not immediately obvious to distinguish the back from the front. I could be wearing one, remove it to have a drink or a sandwich and then put it back the wrong way round without realising. Thus putting any virus that might have been on the outside directly into my breathing area. A simple (but possible deadly) error.

 

My obvious advice to those who might have a similar style of mask and be unfamiliar with wearing one ... put some kind of mark on the mask so that you will know which side is which.

 

Many basic masks I’ve worn in Asia have a strip that can be moulded around the nose to provide a better seal. Also makes it easy to tell which side is which.

[aintforever]

Quite. It's pretty obvious that the virus is spread on the streets and shops by people carrying the virus, and that if they were wearing a mask they'd be less likely to spread the virus. It's hard to see an argument against masks being worn - they protect all of us if they prevent transmission.

 

This, it's a no-brainer really, they should be compulsory when outdoors.

 

Obviously supply is going to be a problem now though. I expect the clowns in charge over here are waiting for Boris to get back before they start going on eBay to try and find some.

[Lighthouse]

I wouldn’t have thought they were that difficult to produce. If this is going to be a long term thing I’d have thought a few make shift factories could be put up in old warehouses, much like we did with the Nightingale Centre. Heck, even if some of the materials for optimal filtration are in limited supply literally anything will help. Even a sock, gaffer taped to your face, will trap some molecules and reduce the risk of transmission.

[Lighthouse]

I wouldn’t have thought they were that difficult to produce. If this is going to be a long term thing I’d have thought a few make shift factories could be put up in old warehouses, much like we did with the Nightingale Centre. Heck, even if some of the materials for optimal filtration are in limited supply literally anything will help. Even a sock, gaffer taped to your face, will trap some molecules and reduce the risk of transmission.

[Lord Duckhunter]

This, it's a no-brainer really, they should be compulsory when outdoors.

 

Yeah, a “no brainier”.

 

Hope the WHO read this, and amend their website.

 

“If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with COVID-19. Wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing”.

 

Other brainless people lacking the common sense you posses are;

 

Dr Simon Clarke, Associate Professor in Cellular Microbiology, University of Reading, who said:

 

“there is no evidence to suggest that face mask wearing in the community, by healthy people, can protect them from infection with respiratory viruses, including the one causing COVID-19. Inappropriate use of masks could lead to a false sense of security and cause people to neglect other, essential hygiene and distancing measures.”

 

And

 

Prof William Keevil, Professor of Environmental Healthcare, University of Southampton, who said:

 

“There are many loose fitting surgical facemasks on sale made of poor quality materials which wet easily from breath moisture and provide inadequate filtration. Even wearing Class 2 or 3 surgical face masks brings problems of fitting them correctly and ensuring their safe removal and placing into an appropriate double bag container for disposal. Which should be immediately followed by washing hands. The untrained public can be regularly seen on television continuously touching and readjusting the masks, contaminating their hands and risking contacting their eyes. Indeed, what is the point of wearing a mask if you also do not protect your eyes, a known route for virus entry, as healthcare professionals do by wearing goggles and/or a full face visor. Even wearing an approved N95 (FFP2) or N99 (FFP3) respirator brings problems for the public of how to fit them and dispose of them safely. Moreover, some designs have a valve which open for exhalation of moist breath which can wet the inside of the mask, and allow better exit of carbon dioxide; these masks may give some protection for the wearer but do not protect anyone in the close vicinity if the mask wearer is shedding virus”.

 

“No brainer, defo.

 

I’ve just told my snap dragon that I’m not going out next week without a mask on. She was curious why, so I told her. **** the health care professionals you’ve been talking to,I’ve been told by a real expert on a football forum that it’s a “no brainer”.

 

 

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[Trader]

I’ve been told by a real expert on a football forum that it’s a “no brainer”. QUOTE]

 

[whelk]

Do you think L.A. are getting their information from Saintsweb?

 

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-04-08/coronavirus-los-angeles-mandatory-face-covering-rules

[shurlock]

Don’t want to f**k around in China without a mask.

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/fduyuyture65/status/1250224764154601472

[aintforever]

Yeah, a “no brainier”.

 

Hope the WHO read this, and amend their website.

 

“Wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing”.

 

This is why IMO it's a no brainer. People can be infected and not know it and given that no one at any time knows in advance wether they will cough, sneeze or breath droplets into the face of someone then it makes sense to minimise the risk, regardless of what your old dragon says. Just because the WHO says you don't NEED to wear them doesn't mean there isn't some benefit.

 

As long as it is done in addition the other existing social distancing and hand washing etc, and people are educated about how to use them and why it has to help.

[shurlock]

This is why IMO it's a no brainer. People can be infected and not know it and given that no one at any time knows in advance wether they will cough, sneeze or breath droplets into the face of someone then it makes sense to minimise the risk, regardless of what your old dragon says. Just because the WHO says you don't NEED to wear them doesn't mean there isn't some benefit.

 

As long as it is done in addition the other existing social distancing and hand washing etc, and people are educated about how to use them and why it has to help.

 

The CDC recommends them, that’s good enough for me.

[Lord Duckhunter]

This is why IMO it's a no brainer. People can be infected and not know it and given that no one at any time knows in advance wether they will cough, sneeze or breath droplets into the face of someone then it makes sense to minimise the risk, regardless of what your old dragon says. Just because the WHO says you don't NEED to wear them doesn't mean there isn't some benefit.

 

As long as it is done in addition the other existing social distancing and hand washing etc, and people are educated about how to use them and why it has to help.

 

There’s a debate to be had, but it’s certainly not a “no brainer”. Wearing a crash helmet on a motor cycle or seatbelt in a car is what I’d call a no brainer. Certainly not compulsory masks, especially when the experts aren’t agreed on it.

 

If it does end up happening it’ll be more to do with giving people confidence to go back to work, than any health benefits. This is the great British public we’re speaking about, the same plums who gather on Westminster bridge each week, if you think a majority of them can; wear them properly, dispose of them properly, and continue to adhere to all the other measures, you’ve more faith in them than I have.

 

Btw. She’s a snap dragon, not an old dragon and she’s a band 7, who has lost her father to Covid, so I’m pretty sure she’s well aware of the dangers. I’ll take her and her colleagues opinion above yours on this one.

 

 

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[Whitey Grandad]

Yeah, a “no brainier”.

 

Hope the WHO read this, and amend their website.

 

“If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with COVID-19. Wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing”.

 

Other brainless people lacking the common sense you posses are;

 

Dr Simon Clarke, Associate Professor in Cellular Microbiology, University of Reading, who said:

 

“there is no evidence to suggest that face mask wearing in the community, by healthy people, can protect them from infection with respiratory viruses, including the one causing COVID-19. Inappropriate use of masks could lead to a false sense of security and cause people to neglect other, essential hygiene and distancing measures.”

 

And

 

Prof William Keevil, Professor of Environmental Healthcare, University of Southampton, who said:

 

“There are many loose fitting surgical facemasks on sale made of poor quality materials which wet easily from breath moisture and provide inadequate filtration. Even wearing Class 2 or 3 surgical face masks brings problems of fitting them correctly and ensuring their safe removal and placing into an appropriate double bag container for disposal. Which should be immediately followed by washing hands. The untrained public can be regularly seen on television continuously touching and readjusting the masks, contaminating their hands and risking contacting their eyes. Indeed, what is the point of wearing a mask if you also do not protect your eyes, a known route for virus entry, as healthcare professionals do by wearing goggles and/or a full face visor. Even wearing an approved N95 (FFP2) or N99 (FFP3) respirator brings problems for the public of how to fit them and dispose of them safely. Moreover, some designs have a valve which open for exhalation of moist breath which can wet the inside of the mask, and allow better exit of carbon dioxide; these masks may give some protection for the wearer but do not protect anyone in the close vicinity if the mask wearer is shedding virus”.

 

“No brainer, defo.

 

I’ve just told my snap dragon that I’m not going out next week without a mask on. She was curious why, so I told her. **** the health care professionals you’ve been talking to,I’ve been told by a real expert on a football forum that it’s a “no brainer”.

 

 

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It cannot be repeated too often. Masks are not to protect the wearer but to protect those around the wearer.

[Weston Super Saint]

The consesus of opinion seems to be that face masks should be worn to protect others. Given that those with symptoms should be isolating anyway, it would seem a no-brainer that no masks are needed.... However.... As has been stated, it is possible for the virus to be transmitted 2 to 3 days before symptoms appear and that people with no symptoms can transmit the virus.

 

Therefore, the ONLY advice has to be that EVERYONE should wear a mask when they are not at home, if mask wearing becomes demanded.

 

Given that will probably affect 50m people in the UK (not considering the rest of the world), and that masks should be changed when they become 'wet' - apparently this is approximately 60 minutes - then even by conservative estimations, you would be looking at 5 masks per person, per day. If only half the population were out - at school, uni, work etc - then that would be 125 million masks per day. That's just in the UK. A quick look at Amazon suggests that masks - even the basic ones - are retailing at about £1 each, which would cost about £25 per week, per person (assuming two days completely isolated in the house!).

 

Does the UK have the capacity to produce 125 million masks per day - pretty sure we won't be getting too many from the manufacturing giants in China, Taiwan, Sri Lanka etc, not if the entire world is wanting them at the same time.

 

Who is going to pay for them - if the Government does that would cost around £625 million per week! If it is down to the individual, how many would prefer to spend the £25 per week on fags and booze rather than masks?

[Lord Duckhunter]

It cannot be repeated too often. Masks are not to protect the wearer but to protect those around the wearer.

 

The point is that if the wearer doesn’t dispose of it correctly or fails to follow other recommendations because he/she has been lured into a false sense of security, you could end up with it causing more infections, not less. There are some planks that will go out with one on despite suspecting they may have the virus. The “no brainer” line is clearly ridiculously simplistic and wrong.

 

 

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[egg]

It cannot be repeated too often. Masks are not to protect the wearer but to protect those around the wearer.

Absolutely. That point keeps being missed - too many people are focusing on the benefit to them rather than others. Sign of the times methinks.

[Lighthouse]

The point is that if the wearer doesn’t dispose of it correctly or fails to follow other recommendations because he/she has been lured into a false sense of security, you could end up with it causing more infections, not less. There are some planks that will go out with one on despite suspecting they may have the virus. The “no brainer” line is clearly ridiculously simplistic and wrong.

 

There are planks who will go out despite suspecting they are infected, with or without a mask. It’s no different really. As long as the message gets through to the 95% - don’t go out, even with a mask, we can control the rate of infection. No plan is idiot proof.

 

I don’t see how you can dispose of it in a way which is worse than breathing all over everyone within close proximity. You put it in a bin and wash your hands - most people should be able to get the message on that.

[stknowle]

Do you think L.A. are getting their information from Saintsweb?

 

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-04-08/coronavirus-los-angeles-mandatory-face-covering

Edited 26 April, 2020 by stknowle

[benjii]

I have to wear a mask if I go out and it makes me more aware of my actions and more careful, not more cavalier. It’s not very nice, it makes you hot and it’s weird, so in itself it acts as a curb against unnecessary trips because, frankly, it’s nicer to stay at home than go around with a mask on.

[Fan The Flames]

It cannot be repeated too often. Masks are not to protect the wearer but to protect those around the wearer.

 

This is what I don't get, I understand that wearing a mask is pointless to protect yourself without goggles so it's meant to protect others. But if someone has the virus (symptomatic or asymptomatic) then their breath is still exhausted beyond the mask, either around the edges of the mask or through the mask valve, so virus laden water droplets are still being dispersed in to the air inconveniently at eye level.

 

Another reason why the WHO doesn't want to say you need to wear a mask in public is because this would most definitely divert mask supplies destined for medical teams in poor countries to shoppers and keep fitters in rich countries. The WHO advises on a global scale, so has a responsibility to all and besides if we are to combat covid we need to do it globally otherwise there remains reservoirs for the disease to survive and reinfection the world.

[Whitey Grandad]

This is what I don't get, I understand that wearing a mask is pointless to protect yourself without goggles so it's meant to protect others. But if someone has the virus (symptomatic or asymptomatic) then their breath is still exhausted beyond the mask, either around the edges of the mask or through the mask valve, so virus laden water droplets are still being dispersed in to the air inconveniently at eye level.

 

Another reason why the WHO doesn't want to say you need to wear a mask in public is because this would most definitely divert mask supplies destined for medical teams in poor countries to shoppers and keep fitters in rich countries. The WHO advises on a global scale, so has a responsibility to all and besides if we are to combat covid we need to do it globally otherwise there remains reservoirs for the disease to survive and reinfection the world.

It’s something to do with the size of any droplets that get past the mask. It will stop spit and drivel being projected.

 

Just think about it for a minute - why do the NHS need masks yet the rest of us don’t?

[RedArmy]

It’s something to do with the size of any droplets that get past the mask. It will stop spit and drivel being projected.

 

Just think about it for a minute - why do the NHS need masks yet the rest of us don’t?

Viral load.

[buctootim]

There are all kinds of measures which could be taken to protect staff, but aren't. The NHS just isnt equipped for infectious diseases on this scale. In a purpose built infectious diseases ward the air is at lower pressure than the rest of the building - meaning air flows into the ward never out which helps stop the infective agent escaping and exhaust air goes through virus / bacterial filters. In addition each bed is covered by a plastic tent as a second line of defence. Has anyone seen a single case of that setup used for COVID?

[Winnersaint]

My wife was in our local hospital. Had emergency surgery for bowel cancer 4 weeks ago today. No PPE in use on ward for about three days following recovery and then PPE visibly in use thereafter. She left the ward once for x-ray to check her IV lines, whereupon she was given a surgical mask. At follow up appointment in outpatients last Tuesday both of us were given masks, and I had to have temperature taken which was a tad unexpected. Not sure if we'll get masks at oncologist appointment next week, but we maybe building up quite a collection. Seems to be plenty to go around although I believe the RBH is actually designated as a step-down centre for Covid-19.

[LGTL]

https://www.hsj.co.uk/acute-care/exclusive-national-alert-as-coronavirus-related-condition-may-be-emerging-in-children/7027496.article

 

Worrying news that this might be affecting children in an as of yet undiagnosed way.

[whelk]

I have to wear a mask if I go out and it makes me more aware of my actions and more careful, not more cavalier. It’s not very nice, it makes you hot and it’s weird, so in itself it acts as a curb against unnecessary trips because, frankly, it’s nicer to stay at home than go around with a mask on.

 

Where do you live?

[Whitey Grandad]

There's a study about masks and their effectiveness here:

 

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v1

 

Download the pdf and have a good read.

[Fan The Flames]

It’s something to do with the size of any droplets that get past the mask. It will stop spit and drivel being projected.

 

Just think about it for a minute - why do the NHS need masks yet the rest of us don’t?

 

Viral load, proximity, higher likelihood of positive cases, protection against aerosols.

 

Just think about it for a minute - why are some scientists worried that mask wearing makes people more confident (i.e. less social distancing and less hand washing) and may attract symptomatic people to venture out. Surely it's because if you have the virus and wearing a mask you can still spread it.

 

If you want to protect yourself then surely you have to wear an FFP3 mask and goggles, if you want to protect other people social distancing and hand washing appears to be as effective. I don't know the answer, I'm just talking around the subject.

[Whitey Grandad]

Viral load, proximity, higher likelihood of positive cases, protection against aerosols.

 

Just think about it for a minute - why are some scientists worried that mask wearing makes people more confident (i.e. less social distancing and less hand washing) and may attract symptomatic people to venture out. Surely it's because if you have the virus and wearing a mask you can still spread it.

 

If you want to protect yourself then surely you have to wear an FFP3 mask and goggles, if you want to protect other people social distancing and hand washing appears to be as effective. I don't know the answer, I'm just talking around the subject.

 

But there remains my other point. If masks are so essential for the NHS then why aren't they also essential for the public at large? Wearing masks iis common practice in East Asia.

 

The world is coming round to the realisation that this virus can spread through airborne droplets. If everybody wears a mask then these are significantly reduced.

[Weston Super Saint]

But there remains my other point. If masks are so essential for the NHS then why aren't they also essential for the public at large? Wearing masks iis common practice in East Asia.

 

The world is coming round to the realisation that this virus can spread through airborne droplets. If everybody wears a mask then these are significantly reduced.

 

In hospital, the likelihood of someone having the virus is very high. The NHS wear masks (and other PPE) to protect themselves from infection - yes they will also wear masks during surgery etc to protect patients from germs / viruses they may shed, but on the 'frontline' the PPE is to protect them predominantly.

 

That is different to Dave getting on the bus wearing a mask to protect other people from his potential virus, that he may or may not have....

[Whitey Grandad]

In hospital, the likelihood of someone having the virus is very high. The NHS wear masks (and other PPE) to protect themselves from infection - yes they will also wear masks during surgery etc to protect patients from germs / viruses they may shed, but on the 'frontline' the PPE is to protect them predominantly.

 

That is different to Dave getting on the bus wearing a mask to protect other people from his potential virus, that he may or may not have....

 

The principle is the same.

[Weston Super Saint]

The principle is the same.

 

Yes, but you asked why it was essential that the NHS wear masks, then answer is simply that they need to be protected (because of the work they do), more than Dave who works in the chippy....

[aintforever]

Just think about it for a minute - why are some scientists worried that mask wearing makes people more confident (i.e. less social distancing and less hand washing) and may attract symptomatic people to venture out. Surely it's because if you have the virus and wearing a mask you can still spread it.

 

That's an obvious concern but surely the positives will outweigh the negatives, it shouldn't be hard for the government to get the message across that you still need to stay at home if you have symptoms.

 

There was a bit about Iceland on TV last night and they have tested 10% of their population and HALF the people with the virus had no symptoms. They will be the people spreading it, not the one or two idiots who don't self isolate properly when they are ill. If they are sat opposite you on a train surely it's better if they and you have a mask rather than neither of you?

[CB Fry]

Getting fed up with the journalists asking the same questions over and over again in these pressconferences. And not in a "persistantly holding the government to account" way, but in a "I don't really understand this topic" kind of way.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Getting fed up with the journalists asking the same questions over and over again in these pressconferences. And not in a "persistantly holding the government to account" way, but in a "I don't really understand this topic" kind of way.

 

Woeful aren’t they?

 

I stopped watching the briefings a couple of weeks ago mainly because of Beth Rigby, Laura Kuenssberg and Robert Peston. A you gov poll had trust in the broadcast media at record lows & those 3 planks typify the reason. They’re so full of self importance, but as you say, the actually show a lack of understanding.

 

Newsnight has gone down the toilet, QT has become a joke since that dopey antique bird has taken over, Daily Politics (or whatever it’s called now) is a shadow of its former self since Neil cut back & everything on Sky News is unwatchable. Good job I’ve got Saints web for an impartial & sensible take on the news.

 

 

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[whelk]

No totty at today’s briefing either.

[The Cat]

Good job I’ve got Saints web for an impartial & sensible take on the news.

 

Hahaha. Love that.

[Weston Super Saint]

Gotta love those Germans, always ahead of the game....

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52439926

 

Face masks on sale in the market in where everyone can touch them, cough on them and make sure they get thoroughly infected!

 

 

Slightly safer locked up in a vending machine away from those pesky germs, but hold on, the only way to get at them is to press the buttons - doubtful there's much in the way of hand wasing facilities in the U-Bahn.

 

[The Cat]

Those pesky Germans with their well thought out plan to test and trace the virus leading to a far lower death count than us.

[wadesmith]

At some point are we not going to just accept that probably left expectancy is going to drop by 3/4 years, but for the sake of the economy/mental health/phsyical health they are going to have to let people live their lives (Within the new normal) It's hard to imagine this thing is ever going to go away. If the government were that concerned about peoples health and freeing up hospitals they would probably ban cigarettes (I realise you can't equate the effects of Cigarettes with Coronavirus... cigarettes are a choice....but it does raise some questions) I'd rather none died....but theres going to be some horrible moral dilemmas approaching for those in power...I just hope their up to it.

[Matthew Le God]

At some point are we not going to just accept that probably left expectancy is going to drop by 3/4 years.

 

How have you come to that conclusion?