Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 A long, depressing tale of complacency and incompetence... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh https://apple.news/AmW-6p3aHRcOrDMiGZR3kig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Behave. Look at how South Korea and Germany dealt with this. Look at the warnings from the WHO to everyone, and from Italy to others. We lacked foresight, pointing that out is not hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Behave. Look at how South Korea and Germany dealt with this. Look at the warnings from the WHO to everyone, and from Italy to others. We lacked foresight, pointing that out is not hindsight. The same WHO who said we shouldn't stop air travel, that one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 19 April, 2020 Author Share Posted 19 April, 2020 The same WHO who said we shouldn't stop air travel, that one? Suck it up pal. As long as Hancock is wheeled out at 5pm to tell everyone ‘we are doing all we can’ you’ll swallow it. And fck listening to any medical professionals bemoaning the lack of testing or strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 The same WHO who said we shouldn't stop air travel, that one? Have a day off being a ***t mate. The WHO who said test and trace etc. The one that said don't fanny around. The one who said learn from Italy etc. You know, the one who said do pretty much everything we haven't done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 A long, depressing tale of complacency and incompetence... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh https://apple.news/AmW-6p3aHRcOrDMiGZR3kig #mess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastic Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 I don’t think it’s 20/20 hindsight. I personally think it’s symptomatic of a single-agenda government being very slow to change their focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 A long, depressing tale of complacency and incompetence... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh https://apple.news/AmW-6p3aHRcOrDMiGZR3kig Full article here. Warning! Don’t read this if you’re a lifetime member of the Boris Johnson Adulation Society. https://archive.is/20200418182037/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 We have to hold the government to account surely? We would do that whoever was in charge. If Labour had won the last election and gone down the same path as the current government, would Weston be supporting the actions they took? It's not political to blame the Tory party. It's investigating whether they messed up or not and cost lives, much like with Tony Blair and Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGTL Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 (edited) That report is truly damming, and it’s not exactly in the guardian is it. How on earth can anyone defend that sort of incompetence? The old ‘don’t turn this political’ just won’t wash. Edited 19 April, 2020 by LGTL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 That report is truly damming, and it’s not exactly in the guardian is it. How on earth can anyone defend that sort of incompetence? The old ‘don’t turn this political’ just won’t wash. Just wait for one of the resident nutters on here to appear and claim that Boris is "playing a blinder." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 The same WHO who said we shouldn't stop air travel, that one? They said international travel bans wouldn't be particularly effective in stopping the spread. Do you think they have been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 They said international travel bans wouldn't be particularly effective in stopping the spread. Do you think they have been? Who knows, I see that some Cambridge experts are saying that the virus in the US and Australia isn't always the same as that in the Far East and Europe and that it's older than we think. Virus seems so complex and variable. I spent most of yesterday afternoon perusing a chinese study that says that the virus affects the blood system and the pneumonia is a result of viral sepsis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Ironic that the Governments action on the virus was derailed by someone catching it. You'd have thought that would have been the first contingency to be factored in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Have a day off being a ***t mate. The WHO who said test and trace etc. The one that said don't fanny around. The one who said learn from Italy etc. You know, the one who said do pretty much everything we haven't done. The ones that said this Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 The ones that said this Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk That’s obviously just passing on what they have been told by the Chinese. I’m sure every government in the world would understand the reliability of that information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Behave. Look at how South Korea and Germany dealt with this. Look at the warnings from the WHO to everyone, and from Italy to others. We lacked foresight, pointing that out is not hindsight. Ok then, but let's look at them in conjunction with the dates quoted in the Times piece : But it took just an hour that January 24 lunchtime to brush aside the coronavirus threat. 22 January 2020 WHO mission to China issued a statement saying that there was evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan but more investigation was needed to understand the full extent of transmission. One day there will inevitably be an inquiry into the lack of preparations during those “lost” five weeks from January 24. 5 weeks after Jan 24 is Feb 28. This made it doubly important that the government hit the ground running in late January and early February. It was a message repeated throughout February but the warnings appear to have fallen on deaf ears. By as early as January 16 the professor was on Twitter calling for swift action to prepare for the virus. “Been asked by journalists how serious #WuhanPneumonia outbreak is,” she wrote. “My answer: take it seriously because of cross-border spread (planes means bugs travel far & fast), likely human-to-human transmission and previous outbreaks have taught overresponding is better than delaying action.” Two weeks later, human to human transmission was confirmed.... 30 January 2020 The WHO Director-General reconvened the Emergency Committee (EC). This was earlier than the 10-day period and only two days after the first reports of limited human-to-human transmission were reported outside China. This time, the EC reached consensus and advised the Director-General that the outbreak constituted a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC). The Director-General accepted the recommendation and declared the novel coronavirus outbreak (2019-nCoV) a PHEIC. On Friday, January 17, its report noted the “worrying” news that three cases of the virus had been discovered outside China — two in Thailand and one in Japan. The following Wednesday, January 22, the government convened its first meeting of its scientific advisory group for emergencies (Sage) to discuss the virus. The growing alarm among scientists appears not to have been heard or heeded by policy-makers. After the January 25 Cobra meeting, the chorus of reassurance was not just from Hancock and the prime minister’s spokesman: Whitty was confident too. Surely he had every reason to be, given the WHO hadn't even gone to China by then.... 28 January 2020 A senior WHO delegation led by the Director-General travelled to Beijing to meet China’s leadership, learn more about China’s response, and to offer any technical assistance. While in Beijing, Dr. Tedros agreed with Chinese government leaders that an international team of leading scientists would travel to China on a mission to better understand the context, the overall response, and exchange information and experience. Sure enough, five days later on Wednesday, January 29, the first coronavirus cases on British soil were found when two Chinese nationals from the same family fell ill at a hotel in York. The next day, the government raised the threat level from low to moderate. By this time, there was good reason for the government’s top scientific advisers to feel creeping unease about the virus. The WHO had declared the coronavirus a global emergency just the day before As already quoted above. However, they also did that on 17th July 2019 regarding Ebola but the Times don't seem to be lambasting the Government for not shutting down the country and ordering vast amounts of PPE last summer.... The first order for equipment under the “just in time” protocol was made on January 30. Pretty good really as this is part of the 'pandemic planning' for a pandemic that wasn't to be announced until over five weeks later! Sir Jeremy Farrar, an infectious disease specialist who is a key government adviser, made this clear in a recent BBC interview. “I think from the early days in February, if not in late January, it was obvious this infection was going to be very serious and it was going to affect more than just the region of Asia ,” he said. “I think it was very clear that this was going to be an unprecedented event.” Nice one Jeremy - I assume in early Febraury, if not late January, Jeremy was on the phone day and night to the WHO giving them the benefit of his insights? Presumably he made sure he got himself a seat on the plane for this : 16-24 February 2020 The WHO-China Joint mission, which included experts from Canada, Germany, Japan, Nigeria, Republic of Korea, Russia, Singapore and the US (CDC, NIH) spent time in Beijing and also travelled to Wuhan and two other cities. They spoke with health officials, scientists and health workers in health facilities (maintaining physical distancing). The report of the joint mission can be found here: https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf Although, they appear to have missed his name out of the report : https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf?sfvrsn=fce87f4e_2 So, what was the point of that WHO mission to China you ask? Well, good question and one that is answered in the document : The overall goal of the Joint Mission was to rapidly inform national (China) and international planning on next steps in the response to the ongoing outbreak of the novel coronavirus disease (COVID-191 ) and on next steps in readiness and preparedness for geographic areas not yet affected. SO between 16th and 24th February the WHO were identifying the steps that countries need to take in order to protect themselves, but the Times article seems to think this should have all been sorted a month earlier on the 25th of January! By February 21, the virus had already infected 76,000 people, had caused 2,300 deaths in China and was taking a foothold in Europe with Italy recording 51 cases and two deaths the following day. Nonetheless Nervtag, one of the key government advisory committees, decided to keep the threat level at “moderate”. For the record, the graph that they have shown further up the page - which for some reason isn't able to be copied - shows no 'new cases' in the UK until over two weeks later on the 11th of March. Its members may well regret that decision with hindsight and it was certainly not unanimous. Sorry, they might well regret the decision with what? Oh, that's right, HINDSIGHT!!! By Friday, February 28, the virus had taken root in the UK with reported cases rising to 19 and the stock markets were plunging. It was finally time for Johnson to act. Odd that this is contrary to the graph they have posted - perhaps it refers to cases of people travelling in to the UK who were already infected? At the Cobra meeting the next day with Johnson in the chair a full “battle plan” was finally signed off to contain, delay and mitigate the spread of the virus. This was on March 2 — five weeks after the first Cobra meeting on the virus. And yet, still NINE days before the WHO declared that there was a pandemic : 11 March 2020 Deeply concerned both by the alarming levels of spread and severity, and by the alarming levels of inaction, WHO made the assessment that COVID-19 can be characterized as a pandemic. The new push would have some positive benefits such as the creation of new Nightingale hospitals, which greatly increased the number of intensive care beds. What I find quite odd is that the same people who were trumpeting the research of the Cambridge scientists which has formed the basis of the Government's response from day 1 are now complaining that the Government didn't do enough because of an article in the Times - which itself refers to the benefit of hindsight! But what about the warnings from Italy I hear you ask??? By February 21, the virus had already infected 76,000 people, had caused 2,300 deaths in China and was taking a foothold in Europe with Italy recording 51 cases and two deaths the following day. Nothing came out of Italy until FOUR weeks after that first Cobra meeting : One day there will inevitably be an inquiry into the lack of preparations during those “lost” five weeks from January 24. Exactly what warnings from Italy should we have heeded in order to be more prepared in those "lost five weeks from January 24" when not even a single person had died from the virus in Italy until the 22nd of February! Like I said, 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 That’s obviously just passing on what they have been told by the Chinese. I’m sure every government in the world would understand the reliability of that information. Ah, I see, so the job of the WHO is to just accept what they are told at face value and not bother to investigate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 The ones that said this Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Read the words mate. They are reporting the results of "preliminary" investigations carried out by the Chinese authorities. It's not their findings or opinion. Subsequently they have been very clear what should and should not be done. Germany have listened. They're OK. We've haven't. We're far from OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Read the words mate. They are reporting the results of "preliminary" investigations carried out by the Chinese authorities. It's not their findings or opinion. Subsequently they have been very clear what should and should not be done. Germany have listened. They're OK. We've haven't. We're far from OK. As I've posted above, they have indeed been very clear, but their timeline has been very different to the one the Times would like us to have followed! Hindsight eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 As I've posted above, they have indeed been very clear, but their timeline has been very different to the one the Times would like us to have followed! Hindsight eh? Do you or do you not accept that the government have got things badly wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 As I've posted above, they have indeed been very clear, but their timeline has been very different to the one the Times would like us to have followed! Hindsight eh? How is it hindsight? I definitely remember other European countries going into shutdown and saying we were mad not to when Boris was telling us to just sing happy birthday and wash our hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 How is it hindsight? I definitely remember other European countries going into shutdown and saying we were mad not to when Boris was telling us to just sing happy birthday and wash our hands. Which countries? DO you also remember the fact that we have been, throughout this entire episode, been tracking TWO weeks behind Italy. Italy went into lockdown on 9th March, UK on 23rd March - by my calendar that's TWO weeks after them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Which countries? DO you also remember the fact that we have been, throughout this entire episode, been tracking TWO weeks behind Italy. Italy went into lockdown on 9th March, UK on 23rd March - by my calendar that's TWO weeks after them! Do you or do you not accept that the government have got things badly wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Do you or do you not accept that the government have got things badly wrong? Has there been one single reported case of someone dying whilst infected with the virus because there has not been access to the equipment required? I haven't seen any.... If the answer to that is no, then I would say that the Government has not got things badly wrong, wouldn't you? Since the WHO declared a pandemic, the Government has overseen the building of a number of 'Nightingale' hospitals which are still sitting largely empty, that's a good thing isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Has there been one single reported case of someone dying whilst infected with the virus because there has not been access to the equipment required? I haven't seen any.... If the answer to that is no, then I would say that the Government has not got things badly wrong, wouldn't you? Since the WHO declared a pandemic, the Government has overseen the building of a number of 'Nightingale' hospitals which are still sitting largely empty, that's a good thing isn't it? It was a yes or no question mate.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Do you or do you not accept that the government have got things badly wrong? MLG-itis is catching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 How is it hindsight? I definitely remember other European countries going into shutdown and saying we were mad not to when Boris was telling us to just sing happy birthday and wash our hands. Exactly. This is where the Government has let us all down so badly. For some reason, because we were British, we didn't need to follow the procedures then being followed by many other European countries. The Cheltenham racing festival, which attracted some 250,000, would never have been allowed to happen in almost any other country. I know someone who has died after catching covid from a Cheltenham racegoer. Being British didn't help him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 It was a yes or no question mate.... No it isn't! So many factors contributing to the complexity of a global pandemic which you want summing up with 'yes' or 'no'. Any reported cases? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 MLG-itis is catching Not at all. It was a simple question. I'll assume your answer is no. If that's the case then you fall into the deluded category. To suggest that there were no signs there that could have allowed our government to take a more positive, direct and efficient route is utter madness. Their faffing and indecision has costs all sorts of lives and decimated the economy of unnecessary billions. That's undeniable to normal folk. If you disagree with the above, and maintain that there was no information available to assist with achieving a better outcome for our country, can you please explain how Germany have done so much better. Perhaps they didn't follow what was foreseeable and just got lucky eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Read the words mate. They are reporting the results of "preliminary" investigations carried out by the Chinese authorities. It's not their findings or opinion. Subsequently they have been very clear what should and should not be done. Germany have listened. They're OK. We've haven't. We're far from OK. Something VERY fishy going on with Germany.... Spain - 196k confirmed cases. 20,639 deaths, giving death rate of 10.53% of infected patients Italy - 176k confirmed cases. 23,227 deaths, giving death rate of 13.19% of infected patients France - 112k confirmed cases. 19,323 deaths, giving death rate of 17.25% of infected patients UK - 114k confirmed cases. 15,464 deaths, giving death rate of 13.56% of infected patients Germany - 144k confirmed cases. 4,538 deaths, giving death rate of 3.15% of infected patients What have Germany put this down to? Testing! Really? The Germans want us to believe that if you test more people you will reduce the death rate of infected people by over 10%! Testing must therefore also be a magical cure - unless of course the Germans aren't correctly recording their deaths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Something VERY fishy going on with Germany.... Spain - 196k confirmed cases. 20,639 deaths, giving death rate of 10.53% of infected patients Italy - 176k confirmed cases. 23,227 deaths, giving death rate of 13.19% of infected patients France - 112k confirmed cases. 19,323 deaths, giving death rate of 17.25% of infected patients UK - 114k confirmed cases. 15,464 deaths, giving death rate of 13.56% of infected patients Germany - 144k confirmed cases. 4,538 deaths, giving death rate of 3.15% of infected patients What have Germany put this down to? Testing! Really? The Germans want us to believe that if you test more people you will reduce the death rate of infected people by over 10%! Testing must therefore also be a magical cure - unless of course the Germans aren't correctly recording their deaths Jeez. So Germany follow advice, trace, test loads, lock down properly, and do it all promptly, but your only explanation as to why they've done a better job than us at not fecking things is up to go into some half cocked conspiracy theory. You're either nuts or an unfunny wind up mate. I'm going back to the gardening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedArmy Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 I’d be interested to see what Germany’s death figures would look like if they were recording deaths in the same way as the UK. I find it hard to believe that a country that has a higher death per 1,000 people rate than the UK, has roughly a quarter of the Coronavirus deaths. It was reported weeks ago that they were not recording deaths of those with the more serious underlying health conditions, I can’t find any information to say that ever changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Not at all. It was a simple question. I'll assume your answer is no. If that's the case then you fall into the deluded category. To suggest that there were no signs there that could have allowed our government to take a more positive, direct and efficient route is utter madness. Their faffing and indecision has costs all sorts of lives and decimated the economy of unnecessary billions. That's undeniable to normal folk. If you disagree with the above, and maintain that there was no information available to assist with achieving a better outcome for our country, can you please explain how Germany have done so much better. Perhaps they didn't follow what was foreseeable and just got lucky eh? Deluded in your opinion - which frankly doesn't count for much. My long response above was in reply to the Times article which stated quite clearly that the Government failed to act from the Cobra meeting on the 25th January and for the next five weeks. You yourself stated that we should have listened to the advice from the WHO - the same body that didn't even declare a PHEIC until the 30th January and a pandemic on the 8th of March! The full 'Battle plan' from the Government was put in place on the 2nd of March - SIX days before the pandemic was declared! Has the Government made mistakes - undoubtedly it has. Has EVERY Government around the world also made mistakes, I'll bet my last £20 on it!! But guess what, we are facing a global pandemic, the likes of which we have never had to deal with before, so surely it's understandable that EVERY Government has got it wrong at some point? Unless you think that for some reason we should have ALL the answers, in which case, put yourself in the deluded pile! Back to the question, has there been one single reported case of someone dying whilst infected with the virus because there has not been access to the equipment required? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 (edited) I’d be interested to see what Germany’s death figures would look like if they were recording deaths in the same way as the UK. I find it hard to believe that a country that has a higher death per 1,000 people rate than the UK, has roughly a quarter of the Coronavirus deaths. It was reported weeks ago that they were not recording deaths of those with the more serious underlying health conditions, I can’t find any information to say that ever changed. Perhaps the Germans have managed to keep the virus away from the old, infirm and fat. Don't know if the same statistic has ever been brought to light in the UK but about 70% of France's really serious cases are very,very overweight. The young and fit just usually pass completely aside. Of the 1070 cases determined on the Charles de Gaulle (about 60% of the crew) 500 odd have no symptoms whatsoever. These are mostly young men and women, all pretty fit . Vitamin D levels are also considered important enough, so 3 months swanning about in the med probably beats hanging about in a retirement home somewhere or spending your days in an office. Edited 19 April, 2020 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Jeez. So Germany follow advice, trace, test loads, lock down properly, and do it all promptly, but your only explanation as to why they've done a better job than us at not fecking things is up to go into some half cocked conspiracy theory. You're either nuts or an unfunny wind up mate. I'm going back to the gardening. Jesus wept! These are not hard figures to interpret! Germany has roughly the same amount of confirmed cases as Italy. They know this because they have tested people, LOTS of people. Germany have OVER 10% less people who have been CONFIRMED TO HAVE THE VIRUS that have died compared to ITALY. Why is that - I'll give you a clue, it's NOT because they have tested more people! Potentially the answer could be genetics as we know that the virus has a higher death rate for BAME, but I doubt that would account for 10%. More likely it is to do with recording - I recall from the early days of the virus that Germany stated that if people were dying with underlying causes, the underlying causes were recorded as the reason for the death, not sure if they are still doing this and cannot find anything to verify this. It's not a conspiracy theory, the figures are plain to see for everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Perhaps the Germans have managed to keep the virus away from the old, infirm and fat. Don't know if the same statistic has ever been brought to light in the UK but about 70% of France's really serious cases are very,very overweight. The young and fit just usually pass completely aside. Of the 1070 cases determined on the Charles de Gaulle (about 60% of the crew) 500 odd have no symptoms whatsover. These are mostly young men and women, all pretty fit . That could be the case. Could also be that the amount of testing that Germany has done has 'skewed' their figures. In the UK, testing has predominantly been carried out in hospitals on people who are sick with the virus symptoms - i.e to confirm they have the virus. We haven't been testing the young, fit people who have the symptoms - presumably because most recover with little other problems and those that don't and end up in hospital will be tested anyway. In theory then, we could have ten times the number of confirmed cases (if we tested everybody) whilst our death rate would remain unchanged, which would only serve to lower our percentage. Who knows, maybe it's a combination of the two.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedArmy Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Perhaps the Germans have managed to keep the virus away from the old, infirm and fat. Don't know if the same statistic has ever been brought to light in the UK but about 70% of France's really serious cases are very,very overweight. The young and fit just usually pass completely aside. Of the 1070 cases determined on the Charles de Gaulle (about 60% of the crew) 500 odd have no symptoms whatsover. These are mostly young men and women, all pretty fit . Or perhaps they’re recording deaths in a way that the world should be following, instead of recording every death with a positive test result as being a death caused by Coronavirus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 (edited) Or perhaps they’re recording deaths in a way that the world should be following, instead of recording every death with a positive test result as being a death caused by Coronavirus. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/02/germany-told-it-needs-to-massively-increase-coronavirus-testing Wieler insisted there is not, as has sometimes been suspected, an “under-reporting” of deaths from Covid-19 by hospitals. It would in theory be possible that some deaths were not counted as deaths from coronavirus, if the patient had an underlying health condition. But that is seldom likely to be the case, due to the sensibility towards the illness right now. Only if someone with coronavirus was killed by something unrelated to the virus, such as a car crash, would they not be included, medical authorities say. As Doctoroncall pointed out a few pages back, the RKI’s official mortality figures include both people who have died of the virus as well as those infected and with underlying health problems, where the precise cause of death cannot be determined. Edited 19 April, 2020 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Or perhaps they’re recording deaths in a way that the world should be following, instead of recording every death with a positive test result as being a death caused by Coronavirus. I think they say otherwise but my German is rusty to non-existent. However I think most of their cases are younger people in a sort of general sense. If you look at the CDG example, 1070 cases, 2 serious and no deaths so that gives you a totally false figure doesn't it. I think each nation has it's own wikipedia coronavirus article, you may be able to look that up in English or some other language you can make out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Deluded in your opinion - which frankly doesn't count for much. My long response above was in reply to the Times article which stated quite clearly that the Government failed to act from the Cobra meeting on the 25th January and for the next five weeks. You yourself stated that we should have listened to the advice from the WHO - the same body that didn't even declare a PHEIC until the 30th January and a pandemic on the 8th of March! The full 'Battle plan' from the Government was put in place on the 2nd of March - SIX days before the pandemic was declared! Has the Government made mistakes - undoubtedly it has. Has EVERY Government around the world also made mistakes, I'll bet my last £20 on it!! But guess what, we are facing a global pandemic, the likes of which we have never had to deal with before, so surely it's understandable that EVERY Government has got it wrong at some point? Unless you think that for some reason we should have ALL the answers, in which case, put yourself in the deluded pile! Back to the question, has there been one single reported case of someone dying whilst infected with the virus because there has not been access to the equipment required? I'll be honest, I switched off part way through your times article dissection but I get the impression that you think you know better. Deluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Trusting WHO to be a impartial authority on this is like trusting FIFA to be the final authority on football. You won’t be able to judge which countries handled this well & which poorly until way after the event as it’s a bit more complex than counting official Covid death figures per country. For example Sweden may have more Covid deaths, but less suicides or cancer deaths. Nobody really knows. It’s really like the Brexit discussion all over again, with some people who think they’re important sticking it to the Government, but the public generally supportive. Personally, I think the lockdown is disproportionate but think the Government is doing OK. Seeing as the option was Boris or Corbyn, I think we’ve the right man in charge. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Trusting WHO to be a impartial authority on this is like trusting FIFA to be the final authority on football. You won’t be able to judge which countries handled this well & which poorly until way after the event as it’s a bit more complex than counting official Covid death figures per country. For example Sweden may have more Covid deaths, but less suicides or cancer deaths. Nobody really knows. It’s really like the Brexit discussion all over again, with some people who think they’re important sticking it to the Government, but the public generally supportive. Personally, I think the lockdown is disproportionate but think the Government is doing OK. Seeing as the option was Boris or Corbyn, I think we’ve the right man in charge. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk And is what I'd call the "surmortalité" (over death rate) for the UK known for say March 2020? In France that of March 2020 is above that of March 2019 but well below that of March 2018 when I think we had a big flu epidemic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 19 April, 2020 Author Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Boris skipping 5 Cobra meetings. Who’d have thought? May would have been better for this crisis - at least she can absorb detail and put a shift in. As someone said this morning he wants to be PM but not do what PM job entails. Mind it matters not with gullible conspiracy theorists who don’t like facts or experts and will support ‘their guy’ regardless. And yeah better than Corbyn but that is no measure whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 And is what I'd call the "surmortalité" (over death rate) for the UK known for say March 2020? In France that of March 2020 is above that of March 2019 but well below that of March 2018 when I think we had a big flu epidemic. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending20march2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 I'll be honest, I switched off part way through your times article dissection but I get the impression that you think you know better. Deluded. So, just so I'm clear, you stated that the Government should have followed the 'warnings from the WHO' and that because they didn't they ****ed up. I then showed that not only did we follow the 'warnings from the WHO', we did so BEFORE they even declared a pandemic. Because of that, I'm deluded! Seems like a logical argument to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 I’d be interested to see what Germany’s death figures would look like if they were recording deaths in the same way as the UK. I find it hard to believe that a country that has a higher death per 1,000 people rate than the UK, has roughly a quarter of the Coronavirus deaths. It was reported weeks ago that they were not recording deaths of those with the more serious underlying health conditions, I can’t find any information to say that ever changed. If they are testing more then the percentage of deaths is bound to be lower. We are testing people once they are in hospital meaning that they are already seriously ill so a high percentage will die. The only important figure is the deaths, if we blanket tested the whole population tomorrow the amount of confirmed cases will be massive but the deaths tomorrow won’t change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 So, just so I'm clear, you stated that the Government should have followed the 'warnings from the WHO' and that because they didn't they ****ed up. I then showed that not only did we follow the 'warnings from the WHO', we did so BEFORE they even declared a pandemic. Because of that, I'm deluded! Seems like a logical argument to me! Mate, we're going around in circles. I agree with the message in the Times article. Our government have had a shocker. They could and should have acted quicker and more decisively. The warnings were there - ie they were forewarned. Highlighting their foreseeable failings is anything but hindsight. If you think they've done well and had no notice or warning that could (and should) have led to a better outcome then we disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 (edited) If they are testing more then the percentage of deaths is bound to be lower. We are testing people once they are in hospital meaning that they are already seriously ill so a high percentage will die. The only important figure is the deaths, if we blanket tested the whole population tomorrow the amount of confirmed cases will be massive but the deaths tomorrow won’t change. In fact the really important figure is the new cases. Statistically about 10% of them will turn into deaths. There have been another 5850 in today's figure which are supposed to reflect yesterday. The confirmed cases to tests ratio is about the same 1 in 3.5 although why there seem to be a lot of multiple tests (about 25%) isn't obvious, are people turning up to be tested time after time or are the tests that unreliable? The UK needs desperately to bring it's new cases down and that you'll not do with the laxist lockdown that you have at the moment. Perhaps it's all that the government thinks the average Joe would accept but it needs to be toughened..a lot. Edited 19 April, 2020 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 April, 2020 Share Posted 19 April, 2020 Mate, we're going around in circles. I agree with the message in the Times article. Our government have had a shocker. They could and should have acted quicker and more decisively. The warnings were there - ie they were forewarned. Highlighting their foreseeable failings is anything but hindsight. If you think they've done well and had no notice or warning that could (and should) have led to a better outcome then we disagree. You seem to be forgetting that the virus is expected to infect 80% of the population. You seem to be under the impression that had the Government acted sooner then that figure would be reduced! Until a reliable, working vaccine has been developed, 80% is the stark reality. The Government 'could' have locked the whole country down in January when the first case in China was reported, but what would that have achieved apart from decimating the economy further? We could also keep the country locked down until next January, we could close the borders completely and not let a single soul in or out of the country, but again, what would that achieve with a virus with such a high infection rate? Eventually we will have to re-open the country and unless we wait long enough for the virus to have completely disappeared (incredibly unlikely to happen), then we will start our infection curve at that point, which puts us back to square one! Alternatively we can keep the country locked down and not let anyone or anything in or out until a vaccine has been developed, at that point it would still take many months to vaccinate the entire country and ensure the programme is effective. On the whole, I think the Government (and of course their various 'specialist' advisore) have done a good job, given the potency of a virus that cannot, at the moment, be eradicated. They have to balance the speed of the spread against the economic cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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