Coronavirus

[Shroppie]

Every health service in the world is struggling with this, is that the Tories fault too?

We are less well equipped than Italy so imagine what it's going to be like if we get it on their scale.

 

Your comment is a complete non sequitur. The state of health care elsewhere is nothing to do with the Tories. Grossly underfunding the NHS is everything to do with the Tories.

 

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[Turkish]

No, but cutting it obviously means it is more overstretched than it otherwise would be.

 

You won’t find a single person who would say NHS cuts are a good thing. If you can be bothered there are plenty of articles you can find which show how labour made significant cuts and misspending on the NHS too, but let’s ignore all that and pretend it’s just the tories. Who while we’re t it should Jane had a crystal ball to know what impact cuts in 2012 would have in a situation in March 2020.

[Lighthouse]

We are less well equipped than Italy so imagine what it's going to be like if we get it on their scale.

 

Your comment is a complete non sequitur. The state of health care elsewhere is nothing to do with the Tories. Grossly underfunding the NHS is everything to do with the Tories.

 

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Are we though?

 

Genuinely curious, by what hard stick are we measuring the NHS, compared to other countries health services?

[Batman]

We are less well equipped than Italy so imagine what it's going to be like if we get it on their scale.

 

Your comment is a complete non sequitur. The state of health care elsewhere is nothing to do with the Tories. Grossly underfunding the NHS is everything to do with the Tories.

 

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Whilst the NHS could do with more money (which will forever be the case).

 

It also get routine absurd by way too many people.

[aintforever]

You won’t find a single person who would say NHS cuts are a good thing. If you can be bothered there are plenty of articles you can find which show how labour made significant cuts and misspending on the NHS too, but let’s ignore all that and pretend it’s just the tories. Who while we’re t it should Jane had a crystal ball to know what impact cuts in 2012 would have in a situation in March 2020.

 

Labour havn’t been in power for over 10 years so yes, it is absolutely all the Tories doing.

 

My Dad has been in and out of hospital for most of the past year, whilst the staff were fantastic they were already overstretched then, god knows how they are coping now.

[Fan The Flames]

The resilience that was traditionally in the NHS like mothballed wards or going back, ready to go infectious disease hospitals wouldn't have covered the scale of this pandemic but they would have helped and the NHS would bite your hand off for them now.

 

We really shouldn't be scrabbling around for PPE and ventilators, we should have warehouses full of them ready for this situation. The world was warned when SARS happened and we should have had a plan in place, but we are making it up as we go along. Everyone is doing their best and they are pulling together an effective machine, but they are playing catch up when they shouldn't have been.

[Batman]

Labour havn’t been in power for over 10 years so yes, it is absolutely all the Tories doing.

 

My Dad has been in and out of hospital for most of the past year, whilst the staff were fantastic they were already overstretched then, god knows how they are coping now.

It's very busy, helped by kicking out people who absolutely did not really need to be taking up beds and the dry up of walk-ins at A&E that have no place there.

[SO16_Saint01]

My daughter (6yo) asks me 3 questions before bed every night. Tonight’s heartbreaking ones:

 

1) why does everything have to be different now

2) how does the bug get spreaded

3) why are we not allowed to go out to play

 

FFS people, stay in doors

[hypochondriac]

Are there really people in existence that still think that this is all Boris's doing? Are there really people who are so stupid that they think one person can be able to make every decision, alone?

All the people moaning that Boris was ignoring them and was just following his strategy for the money have all shut up.

[stknowle]

Business as usual on the construction site, laughable really.

 

Vast majority of construction workers are self employed therefore Government desperate to keep them going and not face having to deal with a/the cost of sorting out the same 80% payments pledged to PAYE workers b/the complications of sorting such payments out c/the furore if they do neither. Hiding behind the (partially true but not really practical) notion you can all stay 2m apart on a building site.

 

Ultimately it won't matter anyway, suppliers like Travis Perkins and Brewers shutting down. No supplies, no construction.

[stknowle]

With you on that, unless they’re just so short staffed they can’t.

 

They are short staffed but not to the extent that it is necessary for them to have curtailed services as much as they have. That said if they kept services to the maximum their current staffing levels would allow peak times/rush hour would be crowded well beyond the point that 2m min social distancing would be in any way feasible. They should offer key workers free ubers and pay the drivers direct.

[shurlock]

The resilience that was traditionally in the NHS like mothballed wards or going back, ready to go infectious disease hospitals wouldn't have covered the scale of this pandemic but they would have helped and the NHS would bite your hand off for them now.

 

We really shouldn't be scrabbling around for PPE and ventilators, we should have warehouses full of them ready for this situation. The world was warned when SARS happened and we should have had a plan in place, but we are making it up as we go along. Everyone is doing their best and they are pulling together an effective machine, but they are playing catch up when they shouldn't have been.

 

Spot on

[Weston Super Saint]

The resilience that was traditionally in the NHS like mothballed wards or going back, ready to go infectious disease hospitals wouldn't have covered the scale of this pandemic but they would have helped and the NHS would bite your hand off for them now.

 

We really shouldn't be scrabbling around for PPE and ventilators, we should have warehouses full of them ready for this situation. The world was warned when SARS happened and we should have had a plan in place, but we are making it up as we go along. Everyone is doing their best and they are pulling together an effective machine, but they are playing catch up when they shouldn't have been.

 

Has that previous 'resilience' been replaced by the private sector - wards, ventilators, hospitals, trained staff - that has been seconded by the NHS or was it considerably more than that?

[Batman]

My relative in France - where a much more strict lockdown has been in place for a couple of weeks - has said that their lockdown has been extended by another 4-5 weeks

 

We can assume the same will happen here then.

[ooh it's a corner]

My relative in France - where a much more strict lockdown has been in place for a couple of weeks - has said that their lockdown has been extended by another 4-5 weeks

 

We can assume the same will happen here then.

 

In one of Boris's early addresses, he said the peak was expected end of May / beginning of June. They won't let us out in peak, just a question of how far after peak they let us out.

 

Obviously, this is all based on computer models and the like, which could be wrong, but Lombardy was shut at the end of February and all of Italy on the 9th March. I don't see that situation changing in the next four weeks.

 

Just gotta hunker down and try to keep the brain engaged, whilst remaining aware of others in your household. (I'm the bloke that leaves for work early and comes home late, so my presence at home cramps everyone else's space more than it affects me).

[hypochondriac]

It looks to me like this is going to have two or three peaks before we hopefully develop a vaccine. Given that scenario and the probable meed for multiple periods of lockdown the decision may have to be whether it is better to keep people locked in their houses for at least a year or whether getting enough people infected to herd mentality levels in as controlled a manner as they can is the way to go. Sad fact is the threat of this virus isn't going anywhere until we get a vaccine. I doubt they will be able to safely restart the football in September.

[hypochondriac]

Saddest thing for me is my little girl who can't see any of her relatives and a significant portion of her life is going to be lived in this new reality.

[Plastic]

Saddest thing for me is my little girl who can't see any of her relatives and a significant portion of her life is going to be lived in this new reality.

 

Yes I was saying yesterday I’m glad we have 2. They scrap like hell but at least they are occupied. We also have a dog which helps alleviate the boredom!

[Kingsland Codger]

I read many comments on here about 10 years of cuts to the NHS - post number 1045 on page 21 and similar elsewhere. The fullfact.org website shows a steady (inflation adjusted) increase in spending on the NHS during that time. I can understand the rate-of-growth may well have slowed but but it doesn't look like there has been any reduction. What am I reading incorrectly?

 

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

 

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

[Doctoroncall]

I read many comments on here about 10 years of cuts to the NHS - post number 1045 on page 21 and similar elsewhere. The fullfact.org website shows a steady (inflation adjusted) increase in spending on the NHS during that time. I can understand the rate-of-growth may well have slowed but but it doesn't look like there has been any reduction. What am I reading incorrectly?

 

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

 

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

 

Combination of things, primarily the demand outstripping supply from older population and increase in population.

 

Also where there were life threatening diseases, medicines have prolonged life.

 

Cost of specialist equipment, increase in types of treatments available, cost of medicines, obesity, diabetes, lawsuits, not regularly modernising, etc etc

 

However, the NHS, is still high up in the efficiency score compared to other nations as far as I know.

 

It comes down to what worth is the NHS to the nation.

[buctootim]

Combination of things, primarily the demand outstripping supply from older population and increase in population.

 

Also where there were life threatening diseases, medicines have prolonged life.

 

Cost of specialist equipment, increase in types of treatments available, cost of medicines, obesity, diabetes, lawsuits, not regularly modernising, etc etc

 

However, the NHS, is still high up in the efficiency score compared to other nations as far as I know.

 

It comes down to what worth is the NHS to the nation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This, plus the fact the NHS has slipped down the priority list somewhat and now receives a slightly lower share of GDP than before.

 

At core though is the basic fact that every year what is possible increases. The more times you save someones life the more times they are around to get sick again.

Edited 25 March, 2020 by buctootim

[Batman]

Personally, I hope that after all this, the NHS is re-shaped to be more current.

It should be about providing critical world class care. Less so about sex changes and other fluff.

 

people need to me made (somehow) to respect it more and not abuse it........

A separate NHS tax, would be a good start. Visible on your payslip!

 

just throwing money at it and not changing it will only cripple the country, at some point in the future.

 

be interesting what gives after all this. The NHS will get an incredible amount of money thrown at it, whilst we enter a period of Austerity that will make 2010 look very pleasant.

Edited 25 March, 2020 by Batman

[Lighthouse]

Looks like Charlie is the latest celebrity to test positive.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52033845

[whelk]

Was it Whitey who can rest easy now

 

 

Coronavirus: Drivers to get six-month emergency MOT extension https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52036333

[hypochondriac]

Was it Whitey who can rest easy now

 

 

Coronavirus: Drivers to get six-month emergency MOT extension https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52036333

Thank goodness. That's been playing on my mind all week.

[Turkish]

Personally, I hope that after all this, the NHS is re-shaped to be more current.

It should be about providing critical world class care. Less so about sex changes and other fluff.

 

people need to me made (somehow) to respect it more and not abuse it........

A separate NHS tax, would be a good start. Visible on your payslip!

 

just throwing money at it and not changing it will only cripple the country, at some point in the future.

 

be interesting what gives after all this. The NHS will get an incredible amount of money thrown at it, whilst we enter a period of Austerity that will make 2010 look very pleasant.

 

I think i said on another thread i've seen a few talks and listen to a pod cast by an NHS doctor in Manchester. He says that GPs are too quick to give a prescription and that is what people expect, its crippling the NHS. He says 80% of the patients he sees can sort their issues out with a lifestyle change, diet, more exercise, meditation that sort of thing and claims to have resolved many cases of depression, diabetes and other chronic illnesses that way. If you could get even 40% of people treated that way, plus less priority to time wasters it'd sort a lot of things out. Before people get outraged, there are obviously a number of genuine cases of depression and anxiety but i've seen it first hand with even members of my own family and company going to the doctors because they feel a bit down after a bad few weeks, the sort of stress most of us have to deal with at some point in our lives. Of course they feel down, they've sat in the house for a week telling themselves how depressed or stressed they are and how terrible everything is. I agree with the doctor and all the evidence says he's right, a lot of the things causing a huge burden on the NHS can be resolved by people taking responsibility for their own health.

[Batman]

I think i said on another thread i've seen a few talks and listen to a pod cast by an NHS doctor in Manchester. He says that GPs are too quick to give a prescription and that is what people expect, its crippling the NHS. He says 80% of the patients he sees can sort their issues out with a lifestyle change, diet, more exercise, meditation that sort of thing and claims to have resolved many cases of depression, diabetes and other chronic illnesses that way. If you could get even 40% of people treated that way, plus less priority to time wasters it'd sort a lot of things out. Before people get outraged, there are obviously a number of genuine cases of depression and anxiety but i've seen it first hand with even members of my own family and company going to the doctors because they feel a bit down after a bad few weeks, the sort of stress most of us have to deal with at some point in our lives. Of course they feel down, they've sat in the house for a week telling themselves how depressed or stressed they are and how terrible everything is. I agree with the doctor and all the evidence says he's right, a lot of the things causing a huge burden on the NHS can be resolved by people taking responsibility for their own health.

 

Just wait till the law-suits start against the NHS when this is over. Many who were due absolutely non-urgent procedures (now postponed) will develop 'mental health' issues, will out in force and as a country (with anti tory voices in tow) will bow down and pay them.

 

Despite hospitals normally bursting at the seams, seems strange how A&E is relatively quiet (only real emergencies - for which it is actually there for - are being dealt with) and bed blockers in the general wards have gone, which has dramatically increased capacity for those who really need it.

[hypochondriac]

I'd certainly like to see the NHS moved from a model where service is expected in every case into one where people are assessed based on actual need and give priority for cases that actually require treatment and are serious.

[buctootim]

I'd certainly like to see the NHS moved from a model where service is expected in every case into one where people are assessed based on actual need and give priority for cases that actually require treatment and are serious.

 

Meh. Thats noble but a tad simplistic. The perception that we could fund all real need if only we stopped fertility treatment and gender reassignment is not remotely near the truth.

 

The unavoidable fact is that people are living ever longer but not remaining healthy longer. More old people need more treatment. Unless you decide to do something radical - like only offer palliative treatment to the over 75s or over 80s then demand / need will continue to exceed capacity.

[hypochondriac]

Meh. Thats noble but a tad simplistic. The perception that we could fund all real need if only we stopped fertility treatment and gender reassignment is not remotely near the truth.

 

The unavoidable fact is that people are living ever longer but not remaining healthy longer. More old people need more treatment. Unless you decide to do something radical - like only offer palliative treatment to the over 75s or over 80s then demand / need will continue to exceed capacity.

That isn't what I said was it. It's not about eliminating any problems, it's about improving the current situation. It would certainly help to change attitudes if people were charged for missed appointments for example or doctors have to give a greater justification for use of medication. People use and abuse the NHS because they can. Of course there are pressures from living longer and maybe we can have discussions about that once all the wastage has been removed.

 

I don't know if the NHS is like other parts of the public sector but I know that the council gets hideously overcharged for any sort of infrastructure projects because they are obliged to get three quotes for everything and inevitably they are quoted ridiculous prices because they know that they have no choice but to pay it. The government stopping stuff like that would help too.

Edited 25 March, 2020 by hypochondriac

[Batman]

Meh. Thats noble but a tad simplistic. The perception that we could fund all real need if only we stopped fertility treatment and gender reassignment is not remotely near the truth.

 

The unavoidable fact is that people are living ever longer but not remaining healthy longer. More old people need more treatment. Unless you decide to do something radical - like only offer palliative treatment to the over 75s or over 80s then demand / need will continue to exceed capacity.

 

when the wife worked in A&E, she said that at least 50% of the people sat in the waiting room at any one time (usually abusive) had no business being in the Emergency Department. Many would refuse to go to the non-emergency drop in centres because "its my NHS innit"...

 

of course, that is a tiny example but the sense of entitlement in this country for this, is shocking.

[buctootim]

when the wife worked in A&E, she said that at least 50% of the people sat in the waiting room at any one time (usually abusive) had no business being in the Emergency Department. Many would refuse to go to the non-emergency drop in centres because "its my NHS innit"...

 

of course, that is a tiny example but the sense of entitlement in this country for this, is shocking.

 

Yep thats true. You also have a relatively small number of people who repeat dial ambulances and GPs. I forget the stat but one county ambulance service reported something like 15% of their capacity was taken up by a group of 20 people who called an ambulance almost every day. Not sure how you deal with abuse

[Turkish]

That isn't what I said was it. It would certainly help to change attitudes if people were charged for missed appointments for example or doctors have to give a greater justification for use of medication. People use and abuse the NHS because they can.

 

Apparently 50% of adults in this country are on some sort of medication. the UK spends over £5b a year treating type 2 diabetes alone, with medication. It's a dietry illness. Change the diet, cut out processed food, get some excercise lose weight (10-15% of body fat is the recomended figure) and it proven that in the majority of cases it goes away. They are facts. But it comes down to people actually doing it and taking responsibility for their own health. To me the answer is simple with diabetes is this, the first treatment should always be diet and excercise, if they lose a lot of weight but still cant shake it off, lose more weight, if they do then and only then prescribe medication as a control not a cure. You could probably cut 60% off the diabetes bill doing just that, but doctors just give a pill and patients think the pill is the cure, it isn't, it helps or a short time but then they need more as they become resistant, which is why none of them lose weight and their condition gets worse over time.

[Batman]

Apparently 50% of adults in this country are on some sort of medication. the UK spends over £5b a year treating type 2 diabetes alone, with medication. It's a dietry illness. Change the diet, cut out processed food, get some excercise lose weight (10-15% of body fat is the recomended figure) and it proven that in the majority of cases it goes away. They are facts. But it comes down to people actually doing it and taking responsibility for their own health. To me the answer is simple with diabetes is this, the first treatment should always be diet and excercise, if they lose a lot of weight but still cant shake it off, lose more weight, if they do then and only then prescribe medication as a control not a cure. You could probably cut 60% off the diabetes bill doing just that, but doctors just give a pill and patients think the pill is the cure, it isn't, it helps or a short time but then they need more as they become resistant, which is why none of them lose weight and their condition gets worse over time.

 

That is a direct and to the point treatment in many cases. Trouble is, the likes of Corbyn (with certain media outlets) will be demanding answers in PMQs/Social Media on why the nasty party are denying treatment and letting people die!!!!

 

every election for 50 years, the NHS is abused by the politicians, which makes it paralysed to change. With only more £££ being the answer!

[buctootim]

Yep thats true. You also have a relatively small number of people who repeat dial ambulances and GPs. I forget the stat but one county ambulance service reported something like 15% of their capacity was taken up by a group of 20 people who called an ambulance almost every day. Not sure how you deal with abuse

 

When I worked at St Marys Paddington in the 1990s it had one of the busiest A&E depts in the country with around 65,000 attendances pa. Now its nearer 130,000 pa.

[hypochondriac]

Yep thats true. You also have a relatively small number of people who repeat dial ambulances and GPs. I forget the stat but one county ambulance service reported something like 15% of their capacity was taken up by a group of 20 people who called an ambulance almost every day. Not sure how you deal with abuse

It's the same with things like childcare. There's an entitlement culture in this country where people go into a childcare setting and demand that they are given the 30 hours "free" they are entitled to and then start instructing the nursery how it should run. This contrasts with somewhere like Sweden where parents are told to bugger off and leave it to the professionals who know what they are talking about. It would be good if many people in this country realise how good they have it and feel fortunate to be given certain things rather than just taking them for granted.

[hypochondriac]

Yep thats true. You also have a relatively small number of people who repeat dial ambulances and GPs. I forget the stat but one county ambulance service reported something like 15% of their capacity was taken up by a group of 20 people who called an ambulance almost every day. Not sure how you deal with abuse

It's the same with things like childcare. There's an entitlement culture in this country where peoppeoplp go into a childcare setting and demand that they are given the 30 hours "free" they are entitled to and then start instructing the nursery how it should run. This contrasts with somewhere like Sweden where parents are told to bugger off and leave it to the professionals who know what they are talking about. It would be good if many people in this country realise how good they have it and feel fortunate to be given certain things rather than just taking them for granted.

[buctootim]

Apparently 50% of adults in this country are on some sort of medication. the UK spends over £5b a year treating type 2 diabetes alone, with medication. It's a dietry illness. Change the diet, cut out processed food, get some excercise lose weight (10-15% of body fat is the recomended figure) and it proven that in the majority of cases it goes away. They are facts. But it comes down to people actually doing it and taking responsibility for their own health. To me the answer is simple with diabetes is this, the first treatment should always be diet and excercise, if they lose a lot of weight but still cant shake it off, lose more weight, if they do then and only then prescribe medication as a control not a cure. You could probably cut 60% off the diabetes bill doing just that, but doctors just give a pill and patients think the pill is the cure, it isn't, it helps or a short time but then they need more as they become resistant, which is why none of them lose weight and their condition gets worse over time.

 

Health and diet advice is always first step but many people dont do the exercise or change their diets.

[Batman]

It's the same with things like childcare. There's an entitlement culture in this country where peoppeoplp go into a childcare setting and demand that they are given the 30 hours "free" they are entitled to and then start instructing the nursery how it should run. This contrasts with somewhere like Sweden where parents are told to bugger off and leave it to the professionals who know what they are talking about. It would be good if many people in this country realise how good they have it and feel fortunate to be given certain things rather than just taking them for granted.

 

only a few months ago, leading up to the election, you could read people like soggy making out we live in a 3rd world country (repeated by so many). In Reality, we really really really do not.

[hypochondriac]

Charging for abuse of the NHS is a great idea and should be done as soon as this is all over.

[Turkish]

Health and diet advice is always first step but many people dont do the exercise or change their diets.

 

It really isn't. But like i said, it comes down to people taking responsibility for their health too, like you say many dont.

[buctootim]

Charging for abuse of the NHS is a great idea and should be done as soon as this is all over.

 

Its not as simple as that. Most of the repeat users / abusers have mental health issues, frequently are addicts or have have OCD and are living on benefits. How exactly are you going to stop them?

[buctootim]

It really isn't. But like i said, it comes down to people taking responsibility for their health too, like you say many dont.

 

Its like people who smoke outside hospital with drips in their arms. Whilst some people diagnosed with a lifestyle related condition will radically change their habits some just wont

[Turkish]

Its like people who smoke outside hospital with drips in their arms. Whilst some people diagnosed with a lifestyle related condition will radically change their habits some just wont

 

As a wise man once said, the saddest thing i've ever seen is smokers outside the hospital doors.

[hypochondriac]

Its not as simple as that. Most of the repeat users / abusers have mental health issues, frequently are addicts or have have OCD and are living on benefits. How exactly are you going to stop them?

Yes that will be a percentage but some will obviously be deterred if those who can afford it are fined and if necessary imprisoned. It's not good enough to say that some have mental health issues so we might as well not do anything. Collecting fines for things like missed appointments and penalising trusts for excessive wastefullness would be good too. Remove the sense of entitlement that people feel- "we pay your wages" shouted at policemen and NHS staff for example- and you will see an improvement albeit with many other problems still to solve.

[suewhistle]

Well, as usual the right wing posters are writing what you'd expect them to write and showing the empathy of a killer whale to a penguin to anybody who isn't like them. As usual they make up straw man arguments to argue against.

 

Is the NHS worse off than other countries? Do your own research on number of intensive care beds per unit of population compared with other better off societies within Europe. Do the same for number of doctors and nurses.

 

You could also do it for police numbers too, where we're right at the bottom..

[Turkish]

Well, as usual the right wing posters are writing what you'd expect them to write and showing the empathy of a killer whale to a penguin to anybody who isn't like them. As usual they make up straw man arguments to argue against.

 

Is the NHS worse off than other countries? Do your own research on number of intensive care beds per unit of population compared with other better off societies within Europe. Do the same for number of doctors and nurses.

 

You could also do it for police numbers too, where we're right at the bottom..

 

As usual despite claiming to have me on ignore posts a rant about me without actually reading what i posted. As usual she goes off on one with having the intelligence to discuss or debate.

[aintforever]

Yes that will be a percentage but some will obviously be deterred if those who can afford it are fined and if necessary imprisoned. It's not good enough to say that some have mental health issues so we might as well not do anything. Collecting fines for things like missed appointments and penalising trusts for excessive wastefullness would be good too. Remove the sense of entitlement that people feel- "we pay your wages" shouted at policemen and NHS staff for example- and you will see an improvement albeit with many other problems still to solve.

 

We can do all that and still increase funding, they are completely separate issues.

 

Fact is a large proportion of society have cried like a bunch of babies at the thought of paying a bit more tax to fund public services - hopefully that mindset will change going forward.

[hypochondriac]

We can do all that and still increase funding, they are completely separate issues.

 

Fact is a large proportion of society have cried like a bunch of babies at the thought of paying a bit more tax to fund public services - hopefully that mindset will change going forward.

Like you say that's a separate issue with its own pros and cons. Corbynism was roundly rejected by the public and thank goodness he isn't in charge of all this.

[whelk]

Also I know a paramedic and all the risk with what the job entails generally and even more so lately. She gets less significantly less than someone getting £2500 for doing fck all. She isn’t exactly crowing about what great measures have been put in place