Coronavirus

[Whitey Grandad]

Five weeks between each lockdown relaxation is ridiculous. They want that long to evaluate the effect of each one but if it turns out that there was nothing to worry about they can’t bring the next stage forward.

Meanwhile businesses go to the wall.

[aintforever]

I think they will bring everything forward quite a bit, it makes sense to prepare everyone for a longer lockdown and bring it forward rather than the opposite.

[trousers]

8 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

327 deaths on 19th Feb (the most recent complete data) and dropping by roughly 30 per day. At that rate it’ll be zero by 1st March, in theory. In reality, it’ll be interesting to see what level deaths actually plateau at and how the government reacts to it. It’ll be a hard sell keeping businesses closed for another month if we’re down to single figure deaths.

Prior to this pandemic, do we know what the 'acceptable' average daily death rates were for other viruses, influenza for example? One would imagine that would be the sort of 'normality' benchmark they'll be aiming for?

Edited 24 February, 2021 by trousers

[Lighthouse]

8 minutes ago, trousers said:

Prior to this pandemic, do we know what the 'acceptable' average daily death rates were for other viruses, influenza for example? One would imagine that would be the sort of 'normality' benchmark they'll be aiming for?

I think it’ll be determined by rates of infection and hospital capacity more than actual numbers of fatalities. If admissions start to climb again, sphincters will start to twitch.

[Turkish]

19 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Five weeks between each lockdown relaxation is ridiculous. They want that long to evaluate the effect of each one but if it turns out that there was nothing to worry about they can’t bring the next stage forward.

Meanwhile businesses go to the wall.

It isn’t, 4 weeks to see the impact, a week to give notice, everyone criticized the government for relaxing too quickly before, now they’re criticized for relaxing too slowly, it’s laughable. I’d like everything to be opened up tomorrow too, I’m desperate for a round of golf and back to the gym, but I think they’ve taken a cautious and measured approach a rightly so.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

It isn’t, 4 weeks to see the impact, a week to give notice, everyone criticized the government for relaxing too quickly before, now they’re criticized for relaxing too slowly, it’s laughable. I’d like everything to be opened up tomorrow too, I’m desperate for a round of golf and back to the gym, but I think they’ve taken a cautious and measured approach a rightly so.

Just for the record, my post wasn’t a criticism, I just think it’s going to be a hard sell.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

It isn’t, 4 weeks to see the impact, a week to give notice, everyone criticized the government for relaxing too quickly before, now they’re criticized for relaxing too slowly, it’s laughable. I’d like everything to be opened up tomorrow too, I’m desperate for a round of golf and back to the gym, but I think they’ve taken a cautious and measured approach a rightly so.

I think you’ll find that it’s different people doing the criticising.

It’s not a matter of what you or I might like. It’s about keeping people’s livelihoods alive.

[whelk]

8 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I think it’ll be determined by rates of infection and hospital capacity more than actual numbers of fatalities. If admissions start to climb again, sphincters will start to twitch.

The vaccine stats seem it will be impossible for hospitals to get overrun unless some variant immune to the effects of vaccine comes along.

99% of those in groups that died so far have now been vaccinated apparently 

[whelk]

A year ago today since this thread started. Quite a bit has happened since then.

[Lighthouse]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56202975

This kind of ‘have your cake and eat it’ mentality annoys me. If people don’t want the vaccine, nobody is forcing them to, but to refuse and still expect to be treated the same is ridiculous. 

[aintforever]

The government need to grow a pair and treat the freaks who refuse a vaccine like the selfish idiots they are.

[Whitey Grandad]

33 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56202975

This kind of ‘have your cake and eat it’ mentality annoys me. If people don’t want the vaccine, nobody is forcing them to, but to refuse and still expect to be treated the same is ridiculous. 

Quite right. They don’t care about civil liberties whilst they are keeping us under house arrest.

[whelk]

Just now, Whitey Grandad said:

Quite right. They don’t care about civil liberties whilst they are keeping us under house arrest.

Fuck civil liberties. Risk infecting others so bollocks to their rights. Diddums their life assurance premiums will go up.

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Quite right. They don’t care about civil liberties whilst they are keeping us under house arrest.

Going to Reading festival, The Grand National and on an EasyJet flight to Mallorca aren’t civil liberties. You’re free not to have the jab but you cannot demand private companies accept your admission if you don’t.

[Weston Super Saint]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Going to Reading festival, The Grand National and on an EasyJet flight to Mallorca aren’t civil liberties. You’re free not to have the jab but you cannot demand private companies accept your admission if you don’t.

Turn it on it's head - what right do private companies have to demand you meet certain criteria before they take your money?

Would this open a can of worms, first there's an insistence on having had a covid jab, then an insistence that you've had an MMR, flu jab, tetanus booster etc etc.

[aintforever]

5 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Turn it on it's head - what right do private companies have to demand you meet certain criteria before they take your money?

Would this open a can of worms, first there's an insistence on having had a covid jab, then an insistence that you've had an MMR, flu jab, tetanus booster etc etc.

Don’t private companies have every right? There are already some jobs you cannot do without having certain jabs.

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Don’t private companies have every right? There are already some jobs you cannot do without having certain jabs.

Employment requirements are very different to shopping / leisure requirements!

What about kids, they aren't currently planned to be vaccinated, so won't be eligible for a vaccination passport.  How are they any different to someone who has refused the jab?

[sadoldgit]

On 24/02/2021 at 22:03, trousers said:

Prior to this pandemic, do we know what the 'acceptable' average daily death rates were for other viruses, influenza for example? One would imagine that would be the sort of 'normality' benchmark they'll be aiming for?

I heard recently that incidents of flu have virtually fallen off the radar, probably due to the precautions that people are taking against Covid.

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I heard recently that incidents of flu have virtually fallen off the radar, probably due to the precautions that people are taking against Covid.

because everyone who went to the doctors thinking they had flu tested positive for Covid.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Employment requirements are very different to shopping / leisure requirements!

What about kids, they aren't currently planned to be vaccinated, so won't be eligible for a vaccination passport.  How are they any different to someone who has refused the jab?

I have some sympathy for the argument that it is not fair on those who cannot get or are prohibited from getting a vaccine to exclude them. The same applies to families of course.

[Lighthouse]

3 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Employment requirements are very different to shopping / leisure requirements!

What about kids, they aren't currently planned to be vaccinated, so won't be eligible for a vaccination passport.  How are they any different to someone who has refused the jab?

I’ve highlighted the key difference in bold for you.

4 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Turn it on it's head - what right do private companies have to demand you meet certain criteria before they take your money?

Would this open a can of worms, first there's an insistence on having had a covid jab, then an insistence that you've had an MMR, flu jab, tetanus booster etc etc.

You are kidding right? That’s the definition of terms and conditions. Restaurants with dress codes, go kart tracks who say you can’t be drunk or pregnant, religious establishments with all sorts of cooky requirements, bars with a minimum drink limit, professional snooker tournaments where the crowd must be silent, cinemas who say you can’t bring in your own food.... there’s a near infinite list of all the small print listed by every business, ever.

[Whitey Grandad]

8 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I’ve highlighted the key difference in bold for you.

You are kidding right? That’s the definition of terms and conditions. Restaurants with dress codes, go kart tracks who say you can’t be drunk or pregnant, religious establishments with all sorts of cooky requirements, bars with a minimum drink limit, professional snooker tournaments where the crowd must be silent, cinemas who say you can’t bring in your own food.... there’s a near infinite list of all the small print listed by every business, ever.

There are exceptions to these general rules of course, all sorts of anti-discrimination laws can apply.

The general view seems to be that discriminating on account of vaccination status might very well need to be determined in the courts. By the time that happens the whole crisis might be over.

[Lighthouse]

10 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

There are exceptions to these general rules of course, all sorts of anti-discrimination laws can apply.

The general view seems to be that discriminating on account of vaccination status might very well need to be determined in the courts. By the time that happens the whole crisis might be over.

Anti-discrimination laws apply to things like pubs saying, ‘no blacks’. In some cases there is a grey area, like when those Christian bakers were asked to make a cake for a gay pride event a few years ago but this isn’t one of them. Terms and conditions are there to protect the wellbeing of a business and its customers, staff and facilities. Covid quite clearly falls under that umbrella and isn’t a case of prejudice.

[Whitey Grandad]

9 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Anti-discrimination laws apply to things like pubs saying, ‘no blacks’. In some cases there is a grey area, like when those Christian bakers were asked to make a cake for a gay pride event a few years ago but this isn’t one of them. Terms and conditions are there to protect the wellbeing of a business and its customers, staff and facilities. Covid quite clearly falls under that umbrella and isn’t a case of prejudice.

See you in court

[Weston Super Saint]

32 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I’ve highlighted the key difference in bold for you.

You're kidding right?

Is someone who has refused the jab, more, or less likely than a kid to pass on the virus if they are infected?

There is no difference if neither of them have a vaccination passport.  That flight to Malaga will be out of reach to both...

[whelk]

17 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

You're kidding right?

Is someone who has refused the jab, more, or less likely than a kid to pass on the virus if they are infected?

There is no difference if neither of them have a vaccination passport.  That flight to Malaga will be out of reach to both...

More.

are you sure that sweeping the pub floor wasn’t the highest position you made?

[Weston Super Saint]

Not sure why people are getting so upset that a minority are refusing to have a jab.

Presumably those that are upset about it are planning to have their own jab when they are eligible / have already had it.  If so, what the fuck are you worried about? You will have been vaccinated and therefore protected. What difference will it make to you if someone else has their vaccine or not? Surely they only pose a risk to themselves if they refuse...

Give it a couple of weeks after I've had mine and I won't give a shiny shit who sits near me on a plane or train as I know my risk will be diminished to the point of being barely more than a heavy cold.

[Weston Super Saint]

10 minutes ago, whelk said:

More.

Ah right, that explains why they closed the schools....

[Lighthouse]

28 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

You're kidding right?

Is someone who has refused the jab, more, or less likely than a kid to pass on the virus if they are infected?

There is no difference if neither of them have a vaccination passport.  That flight to Malaga will be out of reach to both...

The fact that some people are unable or ineligible to take the vaccine means there's an inherent risk, which is not their fault. The rest of society should be doing everything in our power to try and minimise this risk by ensuring that anybody who can be vaccinated is vaccinated.

[aintforever]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not sure why people are getting so upset that a minority are refusing to have a jab.

Presumably those that are upset about it are planning to have their own jab when they are eligible / have already had it.  If so, what the fuck are you worried about? You will have been vaccinated and therefore protected. What difference will it make to you if someone else has their vaccine or not? Surely they only pose a risk to themselves if they refuse...

Give it a couple of weeks after I've had mine and I won't give a shiny shit who sits near me on a plane or train as I know my risk will be diminished to the point of being barely more than a heavy cold.

One reason I think it’s fair is because there are people who can’t get cancer treatments or have operations because the hospitals are full of Covid patients, it’s our duty to get it done.

The main reason though is the fact that the economy is on it’s arse so if passports mean things get moving even a little bit quicker they have to be worth it.

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not sure why people are getting so upset that a minority are refusing to have a jab.

Presumably those that are upset about it are planning to have their own jab when they are eligible / have already had it.  If so, what the fuck are you worried about? You will have been vaccinated and therefore protected. What difference will it make to you if someone else has their vaccine or not? Surely they only pose a risk to themselves if they refuse...

Give it a couple of weeks after I've had mine and I won't give a shiny shit who sits near me on a plane or train as I know my risk will be diminished to the point of being barely more than a heavy cold.

What difference does it make if I don't pay my council tax? If everyone else is paying it, we'll have enough money to pay for public services, so what difference does it make?

 

I can't believe the BIB has to be explained again. Every person who refuses the vaccine is a transmission to people who either can't take the vaccine for medical reasons or for whom it isn't effective. Much worse than that, in the grand scheme of things, you're another save haven for the virus to mutate, until eventually we get something properly nasty and vaccine resistant.

[whelk]

35 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Ah right, that explains why they closed the schools....

For someone who seems to like research some very simple things fly over you. 

[Turkish]

Had some very good news today. My best mate (aka to some on here as my black mate) has finally been given a medical discharge. I’ve posted on here a couple of times about it. He was apparently one of the worst cases they’ve ever seen in the country. Been in hospital for 9 weeks, on and ECMO and ventilator for 7 at one point they said he needs a miracle to survive. We’ll we got a miracle, after a drain on his lungs 4 weeks ago suddenly he improved and the change and improvement has been dramatic. He’s still very weak, can’t get out of bed by himself and will be in hospital for another few weeks for physio and treatment on his kidneys which may never fully recover but he’s alive, he’s coming home and we spoke today for the first time since he came out of the coma he’s been in for 2 months. Unfortunately he’s an arsenal fan so of course the first thing I told him was how we’d knocked them out the cup :). I guess the message is however bad it looks there is always a chance however small and also whatever people say take it seriously you don’t know how it’s going to effect you until it’s too late, he’s 44 no health conditions but was as close to death as you can get, but has somehow pulled through. That could have bern any of us. 

Edited 26 February, 2021 by Turkish

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

One reason I think it’s fair is because there are people who can’t get cancer treatments or have operations because the hospitals are full of Covid patients, it’s our duty to get it done.

The main reason though is the fact that the economy is on it’s arse so if passports mean things get moving even a little bit quicker they have to be worth it.

For once you are actually talking sense

[Turkish]

And have the fucking vaccine as soon as you can!

[Tamesaint]

 

How Weston views this forum. 😁

[Lighthouse]

49 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Had some very good news today. My best mate (aka to some on here as my black mate) has finally been given a medical discharge. I’ve posted on here a couple of times about it. He was apparently one of the worst cases they’ve ever seen in the country. Been in hospital for 9 weeks, on and ECMO and ventilator for 7 at one point they said he needs a miracle to survive. We’ll we got a miracle, after a drain on his lungs 4 weeks ago suddenly he improved and the change and improvement has been dramatic. He’s still very weak, can’t get out of bed by himself and will be in hospital for another few weeks for physio and treatment on his kidneys which may never fully recover but he’s alive, he’s coming home and we spoke today for the first time since he came out of the coma he’s been in for 2 months. Unfortunately he’s an arsenal fan so of course the first thing I told him was how we’d knocked them out the cup :). I guess the message is however bad it looks there is always a chance however small and also whatever people say take it seriously you don’t know how it’s going to effect you until it’s too late, he’s 44 no health conditions but was as close to death as you can get, but has somehow pulled through. That could have bern any of us. 

Imagine if it’d been the other way round...

"How are Saints doing?"

"You lost 9-0 again!"

"🤣🤣... no but seriously, how are they doing?"

 

Seriously though, good news. Like you say it could happen to anyone.

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Imagine if it’d been the other way round...

"How are Saints doing?"

"You lost 9-0 again!"

"🤣🤣... no but seriously, how are they doing?"

 

Seriously though, good news. Like you say it could happen to anyone.

I think I’d have replied “FFS who was if this time!?”

[Fan The Flames]

8 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not sure why people are getting so upset that a minority are refusing to have a jab.

Presumably those that are upset about it are planning to have their own jab when they are eligible / have already had it.  If so, what the fuck are you worried about? You will have been vaccinated and therefore protected. What difference will it make to you if someone else has their vaccine or not? Surely they only pose a risk to themselves if they refuse...

Give it a couple of weeks after I've had mine and I won't give a shiny shit who sits near me on a plane or train as I know my risk will be diminished to the point of being barely more than a heavy cold.

Surley you had your vaccine weeks ago.

[whelk]

7 hours ago, Turkish said:

Had some very good news today. My best mate (aka to some on here as my black mate) has finally been given a medical discharge. I’ve posted on here a couple of times about it. He was apparently one of the worst cases they’ve ever seen in the country. Been in hospital for 9 weeks, on and ECMO and ventilator for 7 at one point they said he needs a miracle to survive. We’ll we got a miracle, after a drain on his lungs 4 weeks ago suddenly he improved and the change and improvement has been dramatic. He’s still very weak, can’t get out of bed by himself and will be in hospital for another few weeks for physio and treatment on his kidneys which may never fully recover but he’s alive, he’s coming home and we spoke today for the first time since he came out of the coma he’s been in for 2 months. Unfortunately he’s an arsenal fan so of course the first thing I told him was how we’d knocked them out the cup :). I guess the message is however bad it looks there is always a chance however small and also whatever people say take it seriously you don’t know how it’s going to effect you until it’s too late, he’s 44 no health conditions but was as close to death as you can get, but has somehow pulled through. That could have bern any of us. 

Great news

[Weston Super Saint]

8 hours ago, aintforever said:

?One reason I think it’s fair is because there are people who can’t get cancer treatments or have operations because the hospitals are full of Covid patients, it’s our duty to get it done.

The main reason though is the fact that the economy is on it’s arse so if passports mean things get moving even a little bit quicker they have to be worth it.

Absolute horseshit!

The most reluctant age groups to take up the vaccine are 18-29.

The same age group that is statistically one of the least likely to end up in hospital, so hospitals won't be overrun as a result of that age group refusing the vaccine.

The economy can quite quickly get moving without the need for vaccine passports.

Have you considered medical confidentiality or is that not important anymore?  Should we make people wear a gold star on their chest if they have herpes or a silver one if they have chlamydia, I mean, how else would you tell right?

[Weston Super Saint]

8 hours ago, whelk said:

For someone who seems to like research some very simple things fly over you. 

Go for it, enlighten me, let me into the secret of how a 19 year old who has refused a vaccine is more likely to pass on the virus to someone who has had a vaccine than a sixteen year old who isn't eligible for a vaccine....

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Go for it, enlighten me, let me into the secret of how a 19 year old who has refused a vaccine is more likely to pass on the virus to someone who has had a vaccine than a sixteen year old who isn't eligible for a vaccine....

Pearls to swine sunshine. Baffling how you haven’t been asked to sit on SAGE.

[Weston Super Saint]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

Pearls to swine sunshine. Baffling how you haven’t been asked to sit on SAGE.

I'll take that as you have no idea how to answer that one then  

Easy to call someone 'thick' and then not be able to back it up, eh?

[aintforever]

13 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

 

The economy can quite quickly get moving without the need for vaccine passports.

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/israel-lifts-covid-restrictions-as-green-passport-system-introduced/

[Lighthouse]

17 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Go for it, enlighten me, let me into the secret of how a 19 year old who has refused a vaccine is more likely to pass on the virus to someone who has had a vaccine than a sixteen year old who isn't eligible for a vaccine....

Because that’s two people who haven’t had the vaccine, instead of just one. Two is a larger number than one, that’s how it works.

[Weston Super Saint]

9 minutes ago, aintforever said:

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/israel-lifts-covid-restrictions-as-green-passport-system-introduced/

Not sure what your point is!

Because a country with a very long history of human rights violations has introduced vaccine passports, then the UK economy couldn't possibly recover quickly without them as well?

Nice to see you've ignored the question about medical ethics, too tough for you?

Edited 27 February, 2021 by Weston Super Saint

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

Because that’s two people who haven’t had the vaccine, instead of just one. Two is a larger number than one, that’s how it works.

That's two people who won't be able to pass on the infection to someone who has been vaccinated.  That's how vaccinations work.

I've highlighted the relevant bit from my previous question that you've ignored...

[whelk]

29 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I'll take that as you have no idea how to answer that one then  

Easy to call someone 'thick' and then not be able to back it up, eh?

It’s is effort. Clearly you above all medical opinion do not understand vaccinations and the lower risk children pose.hence the policy. But yes make your point about either side of a threshold. Very clever. Most people understand it you don’t. But like many contrarians/conspiracy theorists it is a way of thinking you the clever ones.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

It’s is effort. Clearly you above all medical opinion do not understand vaccinations and the lower risk children pose.hence the policy. But yes make your point about either side of a threshold. Very clever. Most people understand it you don’t. But like many contrarians/conspiracy theorists it is a way of thinking you the clever ones.

Not a lot of that makes sense.

Children don't pose a lower risk (of transmission), hence why they closed the schools, keep up.

Children do have a lower risk profile when it comes to ending up in hospital seriously ill.

Perhaps you've got yourself all confused and muddled up the two completely different concepts.