Coronavirus

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

I wouldn’t know you particular circumstances but you said no matter how much virus was circulating, if you were in an area with a high rate and the hospitals were already stretched then taking up an ICU bed would make a difference.

The NHS staff are performing heroics up and down the country at the moment, the last thing they need is more RTAs.

Just so I'm clear. In your increasingly desperate and unlikely scenario to prove some point, I've had an accident whilst out on my bike, this accident was so severe that I end up in an ICU bed.  It just so happens that this was the very last bed in the hospital - but quite possibly the entire NHS - thus taking away a bed from a covid patient.

The impact is still not on the NHS.  The doctors and nurses will still go to work, the hospitals will still have the same number of beds and resources (I would of course be taking up a very small percentage of those resources).  But the actual IMPACT would be felt by the Covid patient who would be left outside the hospital to fend for themselves.

[badgerx16]

58 minutes ago, egg said:

Quite. It's a simple concept that's too complex for the simple. 

And it could be argued that CoViD patients are taking resources from victims of cardiac arrest or severe pulmonary problems. There are a limited number of ICU beds and multiple ways to end up there.

[ecuk268]

7 minutes ago, Born In The 80s said:

At the same time schools have been 'closed'. Yet, my son, who logged onto his Google classroom this week found that 16/30 of his class are in school and the numbers are growing by the day! Apparently out of 350 children, 160 were in school Friday. What on earth is the point of closing schools in the first place, if you're allowing that many in? Totally bizarre approach.  

P.S. Open up my golf club please and let me go for a pint.

To send your children to school you are supposed to be a key worker. However, the schools are just taking people's word for this so a lot of parents seem to be taking advantage of the scheme so that they can continue to work. If it continues like this I imagine that the school will ask for proof that the parent is a key worker.

[Weston Super Saint]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55601600

Quote

Twelve people have been arrested during an anti-lockdown protest in south London.

Great news that people have been arrested for protesting during a lockdown - even though the Coronavirus act only mentions fines, not arrests.

However, they then state this :

Quote

Gathering for the purpose of a protest is not an exemption to the rules, the Met Police said.

Odd that they didn't know about this during the last set of protests in the Capital.

[egg]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

And it could be argued that CoViD patients are taking resources from victims of cardiac arrest or severe pulmonary problems. There are a limited number of ICU beds and multiple ways to end up there.

That's absurd. Covid patients are exactly that. They need treatment. Idiots don't need to be out on their bikes, driving to go for a walk, lining up for a coffee, taking the family to costco for a look around, etc. It's easy to justify doing something that you shouldn't be doing, but it doesn't make it right. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, ecuk268 said:

 If it continues like this I imagine that the school will ask for proof that the parent is a key worker.

First, the Govt would have to produce a definitive list of who qualifies as a key worker. Is a shelf stacker in Sainsbury's ? Is a railway track maintainance worker ? Is a bus driver ? Is a dustbin man ?

[badgerx16]

Just now, egg said:

That's absurd. Covid patients are exactly that. They need treatment. Idiots don't need to be out on their bikes, driving to go for a walk, lining up for a coffee, taking the family to costco for a look around, etc. It's easy to justify doing something that you shouldn't be doing, but it doesn't make it right. 

Riding bikes is not contrary to the guidance, driving for a walk in the country is not. In fact, both are encouraged as you are supposed to get out and take exercise.

[ecuk268]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

First, the Govt would have to produce a definitive list of who qualifies as a key worker. Is a shelf stacker in Sainsbury's ? Is a railway track maintainance worker ? Is a bus driver ? Is a dustbin man ?

I'm sure that a government as competent as ours could do that within a day or two. They probably appoint Vicky Pollard: "Yeah but, no but yeah but....."

Edited 9 January, 2021 by ecuk268

[whelk]

9 minutes ago, ecuk268 said:

To send your children to school you are supposed to be a key worker. However, the schools are just taking people's word for this so a lot of parents seem to be taking advantage of the scheme so that they can continue to work. If it continues like this I imagine that the school will ask for proof that the parent is a key worker.

They definitely do ask for proof. Clearly not all appear to be doing so

[whelk]

6 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

First, the Govt would have to produce a definitive list of who qualifies as a key worker. Is a shelf stacker in Sainsbury's ? Is a railway track maintainance worker ? Is a bus driver ? Is a dustbin man ?

Yes, yes yes and yes. HTH

[egg]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Riding bikes is not contrary to the guidance, driving for a walk in the country is not. In fact, both are encouraged as you are supposed to get out and take exercise.

Local exercise did not envisage people going a distance from their homes. We'll agree to differ, but if the attitude demonstrated on here, ie do what you want and justify it, perhaps explains why we're fucked. We're in lockdown, it's not hard to understand what that involves. 

[whelk]

We’re doing well in something at least 

[whelk]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Local exercise did not envisage people going a distance from their homes. We'll agree to differ, but if the attitude demonstrated on here, ie do what you want and justify it, perhaps explains why we're fucked. We're in lockdown, it's not hard to understand what that involves. 

Southampton common is heaving now. Not a lot of options for walks so does become a bit silly as everyone does same thing.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Local exercise did not envisage people going a distance from their homes. We'll agree to differ, but if the attitude demonstrated on here, ie do what you want and justify it, perhaps explains why we're fucked. We're in lockdown, it's not hard to understand what that involves. 

Mental.

The Government advice is to cycle within your limits and be self sufficient.  I rode in an area I am familiar with having done so many times before, chose it specifically due to the lack of cars and people that would be in the area, have a saddle bag on the bike capable of fixing at least two punctures and my phone to call my wife in the event that I get a mechanical that can't be fixed.  I took a small snack and two bottles with me - I appreciate I probably also fall foul of having a picnic whilst out, but what can you do.

Not only that, the Government announced a £2bn investment in cycling in the middle of lockdown 1 (May) in response to the number of people that were out getting themselves fitter and healthier by riding a bike.  Pretty evident that they are SUPPORTING cycling!

It would just appear to be you and aintclever that have some sort of vendetta against cyclists for some bizarre reason claiming that exercise is going to ensure everyone dies of covid!

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

Local exercise did not envisage people going a distance from their homes.

I can ride due East from my home, during the day, for 9 miles and not see another soul other than those travelling in vehicles. The road passes across largely uninhabited salt marsh. Alternatively I can divert slightly to the South and ride across the drained peat moss, again ending up 9 miles from home, and meeting a similar number of people. How far from my home counts as 'local' ?

[Colinjb]

27 minutes ago, ecuk268 said:

To send your children to school you are supposed to be a key worker. However, the schools are just taking people's word for this so a lot of parents seem to be taking advantage of the scheme so that they can continue to work. If it continues like this I imagine that the school will ask for proof that the parent is a key worker.

We have seen things level off a bit, We have a cohort of 1000 pupils and on Friday 68 in Key Worker School. This is down from the 80 or so it was on Tuesday. 

We are asking for proof (Nothing more then place of employment and job role, admittedly..... If a parent was so minded, they could lie) But, it seems as though people are not taking liberties.

In comparison though, during last lockdown our keyworker school had about 25 pupils. So more job have become 'key.'

[egg]

Just now, Weston Super Saint said:

Mental.

The Government advice is to cycle within your limits and be self sufficient.  I rode in an area I am familiar with having done so many times before, chose it specifically due to the lack of cars and people that would be in the area, have a saddle bag on the bike capable of fixing at least two punctures and my phone to call my wife in the event that I get a mechanical that can't be fixed.  I took a small snack and two bottles with me - I appreciate I probably also fall foul of having a picnic whilst out, but what can you do.

Not only that, the Government announced a £2bn investment in cycling in the middle of lockdown 1 (May) in response to the number of people that were out getting themselves fitter and healthier by riding a bike.  Pretty evident that they are SUPPORTING cycling!

It would just appear to be you and aintclever that have some sort of vendetta against cyclists for some bizarre reason claiming that exercise is going to ensure everyone dies of covid!

No vendetta against cyclists Weston but absolutely an issue with people doing what they want whilst others do as they should.

If your cycling for hours you are not staying local, unless you're going around the block lots.

There's no denying that being outside away from others is as safe as it gets. We all know that, andball appreciate the benefits of it. However, that can be done with local exercise, not cycling miles away, jumping in your car to go for a walk, etc.

We'll agree to differ mate. It's on you not me if your little outings result in you taking medical resources that someone unwell needs. I suspect, and hope, that the chances are minimal but the point is it could. 

[egg]

10 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

I can ride due East from my home, during the day, for 9 miles and not see another soul other than those travelling in vehicles. The road passes across largely uninhabited salt marsh. Alternatively I can divert slightly to the South and ride across the drained peat moss, again ending up 9 miles from home, and meeting a similar number of people. How far from my home counts as 'local' ?

Not 9 miles. I suspect the decision will be made for you in coming days / weeks. 

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

Not 9 miles.

Sort of defeats the purpose of cycling as a form of exercise. Even the least proficient cyclist will probably be doing 12 miles in an hour.

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

No vendetta against cyclists Weston but absolutely an issue with people doing what they want whilst others do as they should.

If your cycling for hours you are not staying local, unless you're going around the block lots.

There's no denying that being outside away from others is as safe as it gets. We all know that, andball appreciate the benefits of it. However, that can be done with local exercise, not cycling miles away, jumping in your car to go for a walk, etc.

We'll agree to differ mate. It's on you not me if your little outings result in you taking medical resources that someone unwell needs. I suspect, and hope, that the chances are minimal but the point is it could. 

If I cycled locally, I would have to stay within the confines of three large estates and the town centre.  That would mean riding in much heavier traffic, passing many more pedestrians, avoiding dogs and children playing in the street.  I would say that would considerably increase the chance of an accident requiring medical treatment for both me AND someone else.  Not to mention the increased contact with people and the increased likelihood of the virus being spread.  That would be irresponsible.

[Lord Duckhunter]

59 minutes ago, egg said:

That's absurd. Covid patients are exactly that. They need treatment. Idiots don't need to be out on their bikes, driving to go for a walk, lining up for a coffee, taking the family to costco for a look around, etc. It's easy to justify doing something that you shouldn't be doing, but it doesn't make it right. 

What if an asymptomatic  Covid sufferer went out on his bike and fell off, in your judgmental world would he be allowed a bed? 

[egg]

27 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

If I cycled locally, I would have to stay within the confines of three large estates and the town centre.  That would mean riding in much heavier traffic, passing many more pedestrians, avoiding dogs and children playing in the street.  I would say that would considerably increase the chance of an accident requiring medical treatment for both me AND someone else.  Not to mention the increased contact with people and the increased likelihood of the virus being spread.  That would be irresponsible.

 

28 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Sort of defeats the purpose of cycling as a form of exercise. Even the least proficient cyclist will probably be doing 12 miles in an hour.

They're not my regs fellas. The regs say local exercise. I can understand why you want to do what you enjoy, but here's the rub - we all do. 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What if an asymptomatic  Covid sufferer went out on his bike and fell off, in your judgmental world would he be allowed a bed? 

Don't be an idiot. I've not said that anyone should be denied a bed. The point is that they're running out, and selfish people going for a 2 hour or whatever cycle ride increase the risk of selfish people taking a valuable bed. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, egg said:

 

They're not my regs fellas. The regs say local exercise. I can understand why you want to do what you enjoy, but here's the rub - we all do. 

Still comes down, currently, to an extremely loose definition of 'local'. I seem to recall in LD1 they said an hour's exercise, which for me meant I could go 9 miles out and 9 miles back. If they want to define 'local' as 5 miles, so be it. But currently the regs permit me to do what I do.

[badgerx16]

Just now, egg said:

Don't be an idiot. I've not said that anyone should be denied a bed. The point is that they're running out, and selfish people going for a 2 hour or whatever cycle ride increase the risk of selfish people taking a valuable bed. 

Bullshit !!!!!

[egg]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Still comes down, currently, to an extremely loose definition of 'local'. I seem to recall in LD1 they said an hour's exercise, which for me meant I could go 9 miles out and 9 miles back. If they want to define 'local' as 5 miles, so be it. But currently the regs permit me to do what I do.

9 miles from home cannot be considered local. The bigger point though is that too many people interpret regs to suit themselves, or to get around them. Personally I find this whole "I've got around the rules" mantra pathetic and selfish. 

[egg]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Bullshit !!!!!

Percentages mate. Less idiots on the road, less risk of accidents. 

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Percentages mate. Less idiots on the road, less risk of accidents. 

Less cars on the road, less chance of a cyclist being knocked off.  And I've had the bloody disease - I caught it at home, my son fetched it from work.

Edited 9 January, 2021 by badgerx16

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, egg said:

Percentages mate. Less idiots on the road, less risk of accidents. 

Brilliant argument!

Mrs WSS is a manager at next. Yesterday they received 1200 click and collect parcels and today a further 800. That's probably in the region of 1200 additional journeys for people to collect their non essential shopping.

If it was about percentages, that would not be allowed!

[Lord Duckhunter]

10 minutes ago, egg said:

Don't be an idiot. I've not said that anyone should be denied a bed. The point is that they're running out, and selfish people going for a 2 hour or whatever cycle ride increase the risk of selfish people taking a valuable bed. 

You could say the same about a fat twat who has a heart attack, or a piss artist whose liver fails. Maybe someone driving at 5mph over the speed limit. I bet you wear a high viz jacket at work. 

[egg]

Just now, Weston Super Saint said:

Brilliant argument!

Mrs WSS is a manager at next. Yesterday they received 1200 click and collect parcels and today a further 800. That's probably in the region of 1200 additional journeys for people to collect their non essential shopping.

If it was about percentages, that would not be allowed!

Ah, whateboutery. Now that's a shit argument, let's stick to the the non local cycling discussion in respect of which, you know as well as I do that a) you're flexing the regs to justify it and b) you'll have the audacity to moan (you're there already with your shopping point) that others are flexing regs to do what they want. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You could say the same about a fat twat who has a heart attack, or a piss artist whose liver fails. Maybe someone driving at 5mph over the speed limit. I bet you wear a high viz jacket at work. 

You're struggling to keep up here aren't you. None of those are subject to lockdown regs. 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, egg said:

You're struggling to keep up here aren't you. None of those are subject to lockdown regs. 

Hello pot, it's mr kettle.

Please point out the lockdown regs that say I cannot cycle 10 miles from my house..

In lockdown 1 I was out on the bike and was stopped by the police, they were just about to close a road but kindly let me through before they did so. They asked me where I was going and I told them my route - at the time that would have taken me about 15 miles from my house. Their response? Nice one fella have a great ride.

Given that the rules are to be interpreted by a constable, I'll happily take that as an endorsement that I am not breaking the rules!

Today the furthest distance from my house, about nine miles, took me past my "local" cider farm. That was just a little further than my local dairy farm.

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

You're struggling to keep up here aren't you. None of those are subject to lockdown regs. 

And until the regulations state otherwise, a 9 mile ride out across the salt marsh, then going back home, is not breaking them. We stay at home all day every day other than to take exercise, which currrently isn't done every day, and once a week go shopping.

Question; if everybody in the country followed the regs as closely / loosely as I do, would the figures be going up ?

[egg]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Hello pot, it's mr kettle.

Please point out the lockdown regs that say I cannot cycle 10 miles from my house..

In lockdown 1 I was out on the bike and was stopped by the police, they were just about to close a road but kindly let me through before they did so. They asked me where I was going and I told them my route - at the time that would have taken me about 15 miles from my house. Their response? Nice one fella have a great ride.

Given that the rules are to be interpreted by a constable, I'll happily take that as an endorsement that I am not breaking the rules!

Today the furthest distance from my house, about nine miles, took me past my "local" cider farm. That was just a little further than my local dairy farm.

"Local". The term you interpret to mean 10 miles, but any responsible person wouldn't a) seek to interpret so liberally / selfishly and b) would know that 10 miles is not local. 

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, egg said:

"Local". The term you interpret to mean 10 miles, but any responsible person wouldn't a) seek to interpret so liberally / selfishly and b) would know that 10 miles is not local. 

And yet the local constable, charged with interpreting the rules, interpreted 15 miles as local, go figure.

[egg]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

And until the regulations state otherwise, a 9 mile ride out across the salt marsh, then going back home, is not breaking them. We stay at home all day every day other than to take exercise, which currrently isn't done every day, and once a week go shopping.

Question; if everybody in the country followed the regs as closely / loosely as I do, would the figures be going up ?

Can (on a selfish stretch of the regs) does not equal should. 

On your question. No they wouldn't. People move, not viruses. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Can (on a selfish stretch of the regs) does not equal should. 

On your question. No they wouldn't. People move, not viruses. 

Come on then, oh great and wise one, give us a strict metric on 'local'. And you accept, therefore, that I am actually living a compliant lifestyle at present. Thankyou.

Edited 9 January, 2021 by badgerx16

[Weston Super Saint]

14 minutes ago, egg said:

Ah, whateboutery. Now that's a shit argument, let's stick to the the non local cycling discussion in respect of which, you know as well as I do that a) you're flexing the regs to justify it and b) you'll have the audacity to moan (you're there already with your shopping point) that others are flexing regs to do what they want. 

WTF?

You were the one stating that less idiots on the road equated to less risk. I've merely pointed out that the regulations are not designed like that!  I haven't moaned that click and collect shouldn't be allowed, merely pointed out that the regulations SPECIFICALLY state that it is allowable, which means, inevitably, a large increase in local journeys, whichn will have a knock on effect for people cycling in urban areas!

[egg]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

And yet the local constable, charged with interpreting the rules, interpreted 15 miles as local, go figure.

Not the case elsewhere. Weston, you carry on being the regs pushing clever boy you think you are. Don't whine though about kids of non essential workers being in school, people cramming in shops for non essentials, or anything else that's non compliant. Those people are as  self entitled as you. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Come on then, oh great and wise one, give us a strict metric on 'local'. And you accept, therefore, that I am actually living a compliant lifestyle at present. Thankyou.

Local is local. ie close proximity to home. Badger, I appreciate you're trying hard to justify doing what you want but stand back and look where we'd be if everyone did that. You're selfish mate, but if you're happy that you are, that's for you. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Not the case elsewhere.

That is hardly WSS's fault. He was provided with guidance by a 'local' Police officer. Perhaps you should direct your ire at the Officer and point out forcefully the fault in his/her interpretation of the Law.

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

Not the case elsewhere. Weston, you carry on being the regs pushing clever boy you think you are. Don't whine though about kids of non essential workers being in school, people cramming in shops for non essentials, or anything else that's non compliant. Those people are as  self entitled as you. 

WTF?

I don't live 'elsewhere' and am not allowed to travel there during the lockdown.

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

Local is local. ie close proximity to home. Badger, I appreciate you're trying hard to justify doing what you want but stand back and look where we'd be if everyone did that. You're selfish mate, but if you're happy that you are, that's for you. 

 

Badger;

We stay at home all day every day other than to take exercise, which currrently isn't done every day, and once a week go shopping.

Question; if everybody in the country followed the regs as closely / loosely as I do, would the figures be going up ?

 

Egg;

No they wouldn't. People move, not viruses. 

 

As for 'local is local', perhaps there is an advantage to living in the sticks with 'local' access to wide open, sparsely populated spaces.

Edited 9 January, 2021 by badgerx16

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Local is local. ie close proximity to home. Badger, I appreciate you're trying hard to justify doing what you want but stand back and look where we'd be if everyone did that. You're selfish mate, but if you're happy that you are, that's for you. 

When our 'local' area was in tier 3, the 'local' area was described as North Somerset. Travelling on the M5 from one end of the local area in North Somerset to the other is a distance of 18.3 miles.

This was defined by our Local Government offices.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

WTF?

I don't live 'elsewhere' and am not allowed to travel there during the lockdown.

Eh? You're getting confused. In other parts of the country the police are interpreting local as intended. You and Badger are keen cyclists so I though you'd be aware of what British Cycling says. I'll help you out as you were probably too busy doing what you wanted to keep up:

“We know many of you will want to know what is meant by 'staying local'. The government’s definition of this is stated as ‘your village, town or the part of a city where you live’,” the organisation said.

“We understand that this definition is particularly restrictive for cycling, and we are working to seek further clarification on this. We will provide a further update as soon as we are able.

“In the meantime, we recommend that you follow the advice to stay local, ride well within your ability and ensure that you are self-sufficient.”

Hope that helps. 

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, egg said:

Eh? You're getting confused. In other parts of the country the police are interpreting local as intended. You and Badger are keen cyclists so I though you'd be aware of what British Cycling says. I'll help you out as you were probably too busy doing what you wanted to keep up:

“We know many of you will want to know what is meant by 'staying local'. The government’s definition of this is stated as ‘your village, town or the part of a city where you live’,” the organisation said.

“We understand that this definition is particularly restrictive for cycling, and we are working to seek further clarification on this. We will provide a further update as soon as we are able.

“In the meantime, we recommend that you follow the advice to stay local, ride well within your ability and ensure that you are self-sufficient.”

Hope that helps. 

That's their statement from the start of lockdown 1.  This was subsequently updated.

It now states :

 

But it's great that you found some out of date information to support your argument.

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

That's their statement from the start of lockdown 1.  This was subsequently updated.

It now states :

 

But it's great that you found some out of date information to support your argument.

To be fair to Egg, it's the advice updated on Jan 5th 2021.

[egg]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

That's their statement from the start of lockdown 1.  This was subsequently updated.

It now states :

 

But it's great that you found some out of date information to support your argument.

That guidance was published 5th January 2021, last Tuesday. Here's the link for you. 

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200512-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-Updated-Coronavirus-Guidance-0

[egg]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

To be fair to Egg, it's the advice updated on Jan 5th 2021.

Indeed. The point is that neither of you like the regs, and the frankly obvious correct interpretation. None of us like this situation. Ignoring them / bending them / finding ways around them is not on. 

I've made my point, British Cycling agree with me, it's what the regs say. 

I'll leave it there.