Coronavirus

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

I cannot fathom the selfishness of parents getting angry at the prospect of schools being closed for 2 weeks, when there are almost 1000 people dying every day, almost certainly many more than would be if schools had been shut. 

Your kids education in the short term is not more important than people dying. 

It's not just the kids' education though is it?

For some families one parent may have to stop working to look after their child(ren), there is no financial assistance if they are forced to do this.  For some this may mean a stark choice between paying rent / mortgage / bills and eating food.  Financial pressure will add stress / anxiety to the family.  All of a sudden it doesn't seem quite so selfish for them to be a bit upset about it....

[Saint_clark]

38 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

It's not just the kids' education though is it?

For some families one parent may have to stop working to look after their child(ren), there is no financial assistance if they are forced to do this.  For some this may mean a stark choice between paying rent / mortgage / bills and eating food.  Financial pressure will add stress / anxiety to the family.  All of a sudden it doesn't seem quite so selfish for them to be a bit upset about it....

I guess you're right, those people's lives are an acceptable sacrifice. 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

I guess you're right, those people's lives are an acceptable sacrifice. 

Actually based on the modelling, closing schools makes a very small difference. 

Edited 3 January, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Weston Super Saint]

22 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

I guess you're right, those people's lives are an acceptable sacrifice. 

Do you have the answer for how to save everyone?

[View From The Top]

Everyone in education up in my part of the world fully expected secondary schools and tertiary to be closed for two weeks after the holidays. It didn't take a genius to see what could happen after everyone got together over Xmas.

We'd already told the kids it could well happen and remote lessons we already ready for at least the 1st week back and the kids and parents briefed.

Some of us are going onsite to teach so we can use our classrooms and others have opted to do it from home. Like many teaching staff I have school age kids, all of whom will be remote learning shortly and like other working parents, we won't be there to keep an eye on them. We have to trust that they are doing it properly.

The structure for looking after those youngsters who need to come in is well established and works.

As in lockdown 1 our canteen is open for all students/siblings/parents to come and get a hot meal. Our sports centre is open so people can get a hot shower and our computer centre is open for those who cannot access the web from home. The mental health teams will all be in situ and the mental health 1st aiders are all in too, of which I'm one. We serve a deprived area so we believe it's the right thing to do. Not many will come in, around 20/25 through the course of the day, but it's ready nevertheless. 

Perhaps because we have been hit so hard previously we were better prepared that other regions and the parents are behind the schools and colleges taking action when they feel it's necessary and schools and colleges have been excellent at keeping everyone informed of what is happening at all times. Even the local tory MPs have worked alongside the Labour councils to make sure actions are non-partisan.

I feel so sorry for so many young people who have been put through the mill this past 12 months or so and whose exam prep' is again being impacted drastically and whose mental health has taken an absolute battering.

I don't think any of us thought primaries would be impacted. That's a totally different ball game and out of my sphere of knowledge. 

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Saint_clark said:

I guess you're right, those people's lives are an acceptable sacrifice. 

Decisions are made year in year out that result in innocent people dying and a trade off is made between the economy & deaths. If the speed limit was reduced to 10mph on every road, less people would die in road traffic accidents. I presume you’d be against that measure, if  so you,  must think the lives of those killed on the road are an acceptable sacrifice to keep the country moving. 
 

Im not saying it’s right or wrong to close schools as I don’t have enough data in front of me, but making out people who think they should remain open are callous or willing to sacrifice peoples lives,  is way off the mark. 

Edited 3 January, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[badgerx16]

Boris says restrictions are likely to get tougher.

[Saint_clark]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Decisions are made year in year out that result in innocent people dying and a trade off is made between the economy & deaths. If the speed limit was reduced to 10mph on every road, less people would die in road traffic accidents. I presume you’d be against that measure, if  so you,  must think the lives of those killed on the road are an acceptable sacrifice to keep the country moving. 
 

Im not saying it’s right or wrong to close schools as I don’t have enough data in front of me, but making out people who think they should remain open are callous or willing to sacrifice peoples lives,  is way off the mark. 

People getting angry at their kids school potentially being closed for two weeks in this scenario are selfish, end of. 

The NEU are now advising all their members to send a template letter to their headteacher stating they won't be returning to classrooms tomorrow but will instead be working remotely. 

[hypochondriac]

26 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

People getting angry at their kids school potentially being closed for two weeks in this scenario are selfish, end of. 

The NEU are now advising all their members to send a template letter to their headteacher stating they won't be returning to classrooms tomorrow but will instead be working remotely. 

TBF though it won't be two weeks everyone knows that. 

[View From The Top]

29 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

People getting angry at their kids school potentially being closed for two weeks in this scenario are selfish, end of. 

The NEU are now advising all their members to send a template letter to their headteacher stating they won't be returning to classrooms tomorrow but will instead be working remotely. 

That has to be primary as secondary and tertiary are remote next week for Y11 and 13 anyway.

Y11 & 13 back in the following week with the other years remote and then everyone back on the 18th.

It's a decent plan and *should* allow a testing regime to be set up too.

Neither my wife nor I, nor any of our friends who are teachers in secondary or tertiary, won't be going in. We were there in wave 1 and we'll be there tomorrow.

[Saint_clark]

5 minutes ago, View From The Top said:

That has to be primary as secondary and tertiary are remote next week for Y11 and 13 anyway.

Y11 & 13 back in the following week with the other years remote and then everyone back on the 18th.

It's a decent plan and *should* allow a testing regime to be set up too.

Neither my wife nor I, nor any of our friends who are teachers in secondary or tertiary, won't be going in. We were there in wave 1 and we'll be there tomorrow.

The letter template they've sent out is tailored towards primary but they said the advice for all other levels of education is the same going forward until SAGE changes it's analysis of schools.

[View From The Top]

Professionally I'd sooner have a 2-4 week full lockdown with full remote provision and a proper plan for exams than the inevitable in/out than will happen as hotspots occur and the variant spreads.

The latter will mean another abortion of an exam season as everyone scrambles to cover the huge gaps in the curriculum, both from Y10/11 and Y12/13. This is so unfair on the students.

I've already volunteered to be in the 2nd week of the Easter break for catch up lessons and May if I have to cancel my holiday with my own kids.

 

[Weston Super Saint]

49 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

People getting angry at their kids school potentially being closed for two weeks in this scenario are selfish, end of. 

 

Damn those parents wanting their kids to receive an education - especially the parents of Y11 and Y13 kids.

[Lighthouse]

Just now, Weston Super Saint said:

Damn those parents wanting their kids to receive an education - especially the parents of Y11 and Y13 kids.

We aren’t cancelling their entire education, we’re talking about a break of a couple of months to help control a global pandemic.

[Turkish]

Well I must admit that like many people I had started not to take things too seriously. Never broke the rules wore a mask, but sighed at another lot of restrictions were announced. Mainly I guess because I though the only people who it effects seriously are really old. Everyone I knew up until now said worst case was like a flu and seemed to be okay within a week. Events of the last week or so have totally changed that. 
 

i mentioned my mate of 25 years had got Covid on here a few days ago. he got taken into hospital on Monday and is now in a coma on a ventilator, after spending a few days in ICU struggling to breath without an oxygen mask. He’s the same age as me and although being a bit overweight has no other health problems. He caught it from his 17 year old son who went and met up with some friends just before his areas went into tier 4. Shortly after the boys met up 3 of the group tested positive including my mates son. He has now infected the whole family and his friend has also infected all of his family, so from that one meet up of 5 teenage boys 13 people have been infected that we know about, whilst for the youngsters is has just been light flu the parents have been worse, but still not too bad however my mate has been in an ICU for 4 days now and they reckon he’ll be asleep for a week. Worrying times. You just dont know how it’s going to effect you until it’s too late. Most will get away with it, but some won’t.

Edited 3 January, 2021 by Turkish

[Lighthouse]

4 minutes ago, View From The Top said:

Professionally I'd sooner have a 2-4 week full lockdown with full remote provision and a proper plan for exams than the inevitable in/out than will happen as hotspots occur and the variant spreads.

The latter will mean another abortion of an exam season as everyone scrambles to cover the huge gaps in the curriculum, both from Y10/11 and Y12/13. This is so unfair on the students.

I've already volunteered to be in the 2nd week of the Easter break for catch up lessons and May if I have to cancel my holiday with my own kids.

 

Sounds like a pretty good life lesson to me.

[Weston Super Saint]

6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

We aren’t cancelling their entire education, we’re talking about a break of a couple of months to help control a global pandemic.

As previously mentioned, at my daughter's school (and no doubt many others), keeping the kids out of school is pretty much the same as cancelling their education, especially as it is their GCSE year.

I'm well aware that GCSEs are largely meaningless in the wider society (but that comes with the benefit of age!), but try telling that to a sixteen year old who has spent the last 4 or 5 years 'gearing up' for the event.  It's an educational 'right of passage' that will affect lots of kids in many different ways. 

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

As previously mentioned, at my daughter's school (and no doubt many others), keeping the kids out of school is pretty much the same as cancelling their education, especially as it is their GCSE year.

I'm well aware that GCSEs are largely meaningless in the wider society (but that comes with the benefit of age!), but try telling that to a sixteen year old who has spent the last 4 or 5 years 'gearing up' for the event.  It's an educational 'right of passage' that will affect lots of kids in many different ways. 

Well... it’s not though is it. We’re talking about a couple of months, which will have to be taken into account when writing exams. We will just have to test them on what they have been taught this year.

[View From The Top]

10 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Well... it’s not though is it. We’re talking about a couple of months, which will have to be taken into account when writing exams. We will just have to test them on what they have been taught this year.

You really don't have a clue how this all works do you?

I would suggest you go away and read what the DfE have already published regarding exams, their content and marking.

 

[View From The Top]

25 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Sounds like a pretty good life lesson to me.

What, having their A levels fucked up, for some, for the 2nd time at the last minute instead of a thought through plan involving all the stakeholders?

Yeah, cool life lesson.

[hypochondriac]

15 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Well... it’s not though is it. We’re talking about a couple of months, which will have to be taken into account when writing exams. We will just have to test them on what they have been taught this year.

It's going to be a lot more disruptive than that. I think the government should either keep things open and tell teachers to lump it rather than pretending they are safe at school or they should close things and be honest about the damage that will inevitably cause whilst they fight the virus. The half in half out stuff doesn't work. 

[aintforever]

I expect the kids will go back tomorrow but there will be another U turn once the Christmas Covid victims start turning up at hospital next week.

[Lighthouse]

17 minutes ago, View From The Top said:

What, having their A levels fucked up, for some, for the 2nd time at the last minute instead of a thought through plan involving all the stakeholders?

Yeah, cool life lesson.

Life is unfair. When they leave school they are going to put their hearts and souls into all sorts of careers and other projects, only to see them completely collapse through no fault of their own and come away with nothing. If this is the worst thing that ever happens to them, they'll have had a much better life than me or many other people I know. 

19 minutes ago, View From The Top said:

You really don't have a clue how this all works do you?

I would suggest you go away and read what the DfE have already published regarding exams, their content and marking.

 

No you're right, I don't. That's the best suggestion I can come up with. Given that the current plan is sending everyone back to school and killing a few hundred extra people, I think my 'clueless' idea is slightly better.

[AlexLaw76]

29 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's going to be a lot more disruptive than that. I think the government should either keep things open and tell teachers to lump it rather than pretending they are safe at school or they should close things and be honest about the damage that will inevitably cause whilst they fight the virus. The half in half out stuff doesn't work. 

If schools shut, why not supermarkets also? If supermarkets, why not anywhere else a key worker is employed?

 

 

[LGTL]

46 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

If schools shut, why not supermarkets also? If supermarkets, why not anywhere else a key worker is employed?

 

 

Whenever I go into my local supermarket, there’s a traffic light system to control numbers meaning I can safely socially distance. If it’s red, I wait outside.

When I get inside, there’s a one way system and it’s usually full of law abiding adults wearing masks who understand the need to stay 2m apart, not full of young children trying to lick your face. 

Then when I get to the checkout, there’s handy floor markings allowing my to queue up safely with 2m distance. The staff are either behind a protective screen, wearing a face mask, or both. I then sanitise my hands, as I have throughout, and leave the shop.

Schools by their very nature are not Covid secure and never will be. This comparison is utterly pointless. 

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, LGTL said:

Whenever I go into my local supermarket, there’s a traffic light system to control numbers meaning I can safely socially distance. If it’s red, I wait outside.

When I get inside, there’s a one way system and it’s usually full of law abiding adults wearing masks who understand the need to stay 2m apart, not full of young children trying to lick your face. 

Then when I get to the checkout, there’s handy floor markings allowing my to queue up safely with 2m distance. The staff are either behind a protective screen, wearing a face mask, or both. I then sanitise my hands, as I have throughout, and leave the shop.

Schools by their very nature are not Covid secure and never will be. This comparison is utterly pointless. 

Love to know what supermarket you go to, everyone I have been in has been a masked free-for-all

Lets say all supermarket experiences are nice and structured like you mention and everyone remains at least 2m apart (yeah, right). Kids are at virtually no risk. The rest of the population are at minimal risk, which can be mitigated if practices are carried out like you see in the supermarkets you mention.

Of course, we could just close supermarkets and move the lot to online.  Cut the risk even further?

Edited 3 January, 2021 by AlexLaw76

[aintforever]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

If schools shut, why not supermarkets also? If supermarkets, why not anywhere else a key worker is employed?

 

 

People need food

Edited 3 January, 2021 by Lighthouse
Agree but without the insult.

[whelk]

5 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Do you have the answer for how to save everyone?

Boats 

[AlexLaw76]

5 minutes ago, aintforever said:

People need food dick-head

order it online. Even Amazon deliver grub these days...

[aintforever]

6 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

order it online. Even Amazon deliver grub these days...

Not everyone has internet.

[whelk]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

If schools shut, why not supermarkets also? If supermarkets, why not anywhere else a key worker is employed?

 

 

Fcking hell. Weston’s been well and truly usurped 

[Weston Super Saint]

16 minutes ago, aintforever said:

People need food dick-head

And you are living proof that people need education 😉

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Not everyone has internet.

So how do you move schools online?

[whelk]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

Well I must admit that like many people I had started not to take things too seriously. Never broke the rules wore a mask, but sighed at another lot of restrictions were announced. Mainly I guess because I though the only people who it effects seriously are really old. Everyone I knew up until now said worst case was like a flu and seemed to be okay within a week. Events of the last week or so have totally changed that. 
 

i mentioned my mate of 25 years had got Covid on here a few days ago. he got taken into hospital on Monday and is now in a coma on a ventilator, after spending a few days in ICU struggling to breath without an oxygen mask. He’s the same age as me and although being a bit overweight has no other health problems. He caught it from his 17 year old son who went and met up with some friends just before his areas went into tier 4. Shortly after the boys met up 3 of the group tested positive including my mates son. He has now infected the whole family and his friend has also infected all of his family, so from that one meet up of 5 teenage boys 13 people have been infected that we know about, whilst for the youngsters is has just been light flu the parents have been worse, but still not too bad however my mate has been in an ICU for 4 days now and they reckon he’ll be asleep for a week. Worrying times. You just dont know how it’s going to effect you until it’s too late. Most will get away with it, but some won’t.

It is hard to believe how the conspiracy theorists aren’t coming into contact with cases that are close to them to give them a rethink. Stories of nurses getting heckled after long shifts, often harrowing, only to meet dickheads telling them it is make believe. Generally nurses are of kind disposition but I would water canon the cunts and then put them in cells with a few positive cases.

 

[hypochondriac]

A lot of people on here proving they really know very little about how schools work. 

[aintforever]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

So how do you move schools online?

Maybe send all the kids onto cruise ships until May?

[Weston Super Saint]

2 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Maybe send all the kids onto cruise ships until May?

Sounds like a terrific idea if it will teach them how to keep hold of their bottle when they have a voting slip in their hands  

[aintforever]

8 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Sounds like a terrific idea if it will teach them how to keep hold of their bottle when they have a voting slip in their hands  

Yeah, scary thing voting. 🤪

[Saint_clark]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

Well I must admit that like many people I had started not to take things too seriously. Never broke the rules wore a mask, but sighed at another lot of restrictions were announced. Mainly I guess because I though the only people who it effects seriously are really old. Everyone I knew up until now said worst case was like a flu and seemed to be okay within a week. Events of the last week or so have totally changed that. 
 

i mentioned my mate of 25 years had got Covid on here a few days ago. he got taken into hospital on Monday and is now in a coma on a ventilator, after spending a few days in ICU struggling to breath without an oxygen mask. He’s the same age as me and although being a bit overweight has no other health problems. He caught it from his 17 year old son who went and met up with some friends just before his areas went into tier 4. Shortly after the boys met up 3 of the group tested positive including my mates son. He has now infected the whole family and his friend has also infected all of his family, so from that one meet up of 5 teenage boys 13 people have been infected that we know about, whilst for the youngsters is has just been light flu the parents have been worse, but still not too bad however my mate has been in an ICU for 4 days now and they reckon he’ll be asleep for a week. Worrying times. You just dont know how it’s going to effect you until it’s too late. Most will get away with it, but some won’t.

That's scary mate, hope he pulls through. I've been shook enough receiving a notification to isolate for 9 days and wondering who the feck I've been close enough to for long enough to get that. 

2 hours ago, View From The Top said:

What, having their A levels fucked up, for some, for the 2nd time at the last minute instead of a thought through plan involving all the stakeholders?

Yeah, cool life lesson.

This is why I believe the entire school year should be cancelled and restarted in September when the virus figures have dropped and the vaccine has been rolled out to all the at risk groups, key workers and education sector. Sure it would put everyone's education back a year, but it would save lives and actually might end up giving the kids a helping hand as they get half a year of learning remotely. 

[Weston Super Saint]

11 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Yeah, scary thing voting. 🤪

As you've demonstrated  

[View From The Top]

23 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

So how do you move schools online?

I've 28, I think it's 28, that or 24, students that we have supplied laptops to that have no net access at home.

We've been told, categorically, that we cannot pay for their wifi, even buying a dongle. They can have a laptop but that's it.

Those students are expected to come in and access the remote lessons via our wifi.

It's been a genuine problem from the off. I've a very large proportion of students whose only access is their phone. 

Originally we wrote everything from laptops assuming laptops would be used. It didn't take long to realise that what we'd produced for remote lessons often didn't work on a phone so we had to rapidly re-write everything and re-resource using phone friendly resources.

I'm lucky, I have some young and very tech savvy staff in my team and we have brilliant relationships with the other schools and colleges in the city.

I can imagine some older and less connected teams may well have struggled.

 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, Saint_clark said:

This is why I believe the entire school year should be cancelled and restarted in September when the virus figures have dropped and the vaccine has been rolled out to all the at risk groups, key workers and education sector. Sure it would put everyone's education back a year, but it would save lives and actually might end up giving the kids a helping hand as they get half a year of learning remotely. 

What happens to the parents who don't have child care when their kids aren't in school (grandparents haven't been an option for months)?

Do we cancel their working lives until September as well?  Who pays for this?

[hypochondriac]

Not sure what primary schools are going to do tomorrow when the majority of children turn up and half the teachers aren't there. 

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Not sure what primary schools are going to do tomorrow when the majority of children turn up and half the teachers aren't there. 

How will the non-attendance of teachers be considered?  Will it be classed as an 'unofficial' strike?

[buctootim]

7 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

How will the non-attendance of teachers be considered?  Will it be classed as an 'unofficial' strike?

No idea. But legally employers have an obligation to provide a safe place of work so it will be arguable at least. 

[buctootim]

57 minutes ago, whelk said:

Fcking hell. Weston’s been well and truly usurped 

Got to be a sock puppet surely? You'd hope so anyway, for his sake. 

[View From The Top]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Not sure what primary schools are going to do tomorrow when the majority of children turn up and half the teachers aren't there. 

The majority of teachers not in T4 will be there, no doubts. 

In T4 hotspots parents won't be rushing to drop their kids off I'd imagine and they will trust their headteachers and teachers as to whether the school is *safe* or not if the 1st wave and subsequent closures are anything to go by.

Much of this could have easily been sorted with some thought but, yet again, to us northern lot, it looks like they only care about London. If you're in a T4 hotspot in the midlands or north with a higher R rate than those areas closing, you'll going to question why it's *safe* for your kids but not for Tarquin and Sophie. 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, buctootim said:

No idea. But legally employers have an obligation to provide a safe place of work so it will be arguable at least. 

Not sure how you would define 'safe' in this scenario.

This study shows some data on infection rates in schools. It looks like primary school kids don't present an enormous risk.

[buctootim]

7 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not sure how you would define 'safe' in this scenario.

This study shows some data on infection rates in schools. It looks like primary school kids don't present an enormous risk.

I'm not pretending to be an expert on the legal situation but 1.24% of people present in the  workplace testing positive for a potentially deadly disease on a single day is definitely more risky to more people than a slippery floor or a dodgy machine guard imo. Thats not to say schools should necessarily close, at least not for my daughter's year 11, but teachers who don't turn up would have a valid legal defence imo. 

Edited 3 January, 2021 by buctootim

[View From The Top]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not sure how you would define 'safe' in this scenario.

This study shows some data on infection rates in schools. It looks like primary school kids don't present an enormous risk.

That was before the variant. 

We have to accept that the evidence in London and the SE looks bleak and we either follow the science or doesn't is the crux.

Regardless of any decisions about primary there is little doubt that we are going to see local/regional closures in the months ahead and bubbles in/out. 

I've experience of that already up here with the city 6th form and one of the big FE colleges both shutting for 2 weeks when it started ripping through staff and students alike.