Coronavirus

[egg]

  On 05/03/2023 at 09:53, AlexLaw76 said:

WHy did they need to scare people to death with something that was/is harmless to virtually the entire population?

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There's a lot of hindsight in people's opinions. At the time we were reacting to what we were seeing in Italy. With the passage of time, it's too convenient to forget that. 

[whelk]

And with 300,000 dead mostly elderly or with health conditions imagine what state the NHS woudl be now?

[AlexLaw76]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:07, egg said:

There's a lot of hindsight in people's opinions. At the time we were reacting to what we were seeing in Italy. With the passage of time, it's too convenient to forget that. 

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Not at all, people were questioning to the 'science' from the off.  More so as we got into the debacle of Omicron. Those demanding we lockdown after initial wave, were just ignoring the rules - they knew it was theatre

The media were lapping it up, much of the public were lapping it up (whilst wanting money for nothing).

This was all part of the narrative - https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/horrifying-prediction-5000-omicron-deaths-25729883

Edited 5 March, 2023 by AlexLaw76

[whelk]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:06, AlexLaw76 said:

if you read through the leaks, much of it was political theatre and not science..

It is there to read.

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Behavioural science is not insignificant.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:03, whelk said:

Dramatic to say destroyed a generation. Think many countries overreacted but easy to say in hindsight. We got wise to the bs messaging down the line though.

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The emotional and social development of youngsters was severely disrupted. Most will probably get over it but there are many who won’t. 
 

Then there is the debt that is still there. You can’t simply shut down an economy for long periods and expect it all to rise back up again.

[egg]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:05, whelk said:

What is galling is the money swilling around the economy from all the handouts - some to companies not even eat up before Covid struck and the tax burden now.  

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Yep. I know of many people who've benefited. Loans  to new and existing companies,  companies which didn't take loans issuing "consultancy" invoices to the companies receiving loans, but then  having to fold having settled the invoices leaving the COVID loan unpaid. Absolutely shocking how easy it was to get the loans and exploit gaping loopholes. 

[aintforever]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:06, AlexLaw76 said:

if you read through the leaks, much of it was political theatre and not science..

It is there to read.

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Doesn't surprise me with Bozo and the other morons we had in charge at the time.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:07, whelk said:

And with 300,000 dead mostly elderly or with health conditions imagine what state the NHS woudl be now?

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300,000 fewer to worry about?

[whelk]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:15, Whitey Grandad said:

300,000 fewer to worry about?

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Being brutal, yes.

[egg]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:08, AlexLaw76 said:

Not at all, people were questioning to the 'science' from the off.  More so as we got into the debacle of Omicron. Those demanding we lockdown after initial wave, were just ignoring the rules - they knew it was theatre

The media were lapping it up, much of the public were lapping it up (whilst wanting money for nothing).

This was all part of the narrative - https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/horrifying-prediction-5000-omicron-deaths-25729883

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There's questioning it and not wanting things to be real. The threat was real... hoping that it wasn't is not challenging the science. The government had to err on the side of caution imo. The simple truth is that they were dammed if they did and dammed if they didn't. 

Edited 5 March, 2023 by egg

[AlexLaw76]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:21, egg said:

There's questioning it and not wanting things to be real. The threat was real... hoping that it wasn't is not challenging the science. The government had to err on the side of caution imo. The simple truth is that they were dammed if they did and dammed if they didn't. 

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Plenty of credible people were challenging the science from the off, and more so when we got to omicron levels of hysteria....

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:24, AlexLaw76 said:

Plenty of credible people were challenging the science from the off, and more so when we got to omicron levels of hysteria....

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How did Sweden get on? This has all been swept under the carpet now. Many countries opted for full lockdowns yet others were more relaxed. Of course climate and outdoor living were major factors but I haven’t seen any studies about the effectiveness of lockdowns.

[egg]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:24, AlexLaw76 said:

Plenty of credible people were challenging the science from the off, and more so when we got to omicron levels of hysteria....

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It was a long journey... at the beginning you had to be pretty stupid to think that we shouldn't have locked down. Along the way there various arguments for what we should have done differently...not one country knew what to...look at Australia, China, France, others. They all did their own thing based on different scientific opinions and assessment of it. All were right and wrong on varying degrees. We've all got 20/20 hindsight. 

[egg]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:29, Whitey Grandad said:

How did Sweden get on? This has all been swept under the carpet now. Many countries opted for full lockdowns yet others were more relaxed. Of course climate and outdoor living were major factors but I haven’t seen any studies about the effectiveness of lockdowns.

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And that's my point. Every country analysed different scientific views in different ways and had various different results as a consequence. The common denominator for all countries was a) the virus and b) not having a bloody clue what to do.

We witnessed various subjective decisions arrived at after an objective assessment of something unprecedented and unknown, so it's obvious that mistakes were going to be made left right and centre. 

[Lighthouse]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:24, AlexLaw76 said:

Plenty of credible people were challenging the science from the off, and more so when we got to omicron levels of hysteria....

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You seem to be struggling to tell the difference between actual science and politicians. Matt Hancock being a slimy weasel is hardly news to anyone.

As for omicron, I don’t I ever met anyone who was actually hysterical about it and I’d go as far as saying most people, even in the media, were calm and measured. Omicron was the variant we knew was highly transmissible but right from day one doctors and scientist were saying there was no evidence it was any more dangerous.

[AlexLaw76]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:33, egg said:

It was a long journey... at the beginning you had to be pretty stupid to think that we shouldn't have locked down. Along the way there various arguments for what we should have done differently...not one country knew what to...look at Australia, China, France, others. They all did their own thing based on different scientific opinions and assessment of it. All were right and wrong on varying degrees. We've all got 20/20 hindsight. 

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that is the point, there was no hindsight.  Credible people from summer 2020 were telling us lockdown / restrictions for all were not the answer.  Omicron was not dangerous etc.

These people (and those who were open minded to it) were ridiculed by the media and establishment a like...the media are equally complicit in this, as most of it not only enabled the spread of hysteria, but demanded more of it (whilst ignoring the rules themselves in some cases).

When lockdown/restriction decisions were political choices, then it became very wrong - as it was said at the time...just look through the earlier parts of this thread and see some of the smug comments from those wanting 'more'..

[Whitey Grandad]

We were in Australia in early February 2020 waiting to get on a cruise when it all blew up. We were watching the events on Diamond Princess in Japan with interest where the disease seemed to spread round the ship even though passengers were confined to their cabins.

Early indications were that if you were elderly you had a 1% chance of dying from it but the young were mainly unaffected. Our calculation was that we’d take our chances with it.

[egg]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:37, AlexLaw76 said:

that is the point, there was no hindsight.  Credible people from summer 2020 were telling us lockdown / restrictions for all were not the answer.  Omicron was not dangerous etc.

These people (and those who were open minded to it) were ridiculed by the media and establishment a like...the media are equally complicit in this, as most of it not only enabled the spread of hysteria, but demanded more of it (whilst ignoring the rules themselves in some cases).

When lockdown/restriction decisions were political choices, then it became very wrong - as it was said at the time...just look through the earlier parts of this thread and see some of the smug comments from those wanting 'more'..

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I'm not going to look back and assess what people said... that'd be applying hindsight.

Turn your view 180 degrees...seems that we're getting smug comments from someone who wanted less and now feels vindicated with the benefit of hindsight.

The bottom line is that some people were cautious and others weren't. I have no appetite to over analyse it...as I've said, different countries made different decisions at different times. Some decisions were correct, others were shockers, but the sheer number of different approaches tells anyone with an open mind that there was never a right or wrong approach. 

[AlexLaw76]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:49, egg said:

I'm not going to look back and assess what people said... that'd be applying hindsight.

Turn your view 180 degrees...seems that we're getting smug comments from someone who wanted less and now feels vindicated with the benefit of hindsight.

The bottom line is that some people were cautious and others weren't. I have no appetite to over analyse it...as I've said, different countries made different decisions at different times. Some decisions were correct, others were shockers, but the sheer number of different approaches tells anyone with an open mind that there was never a right or wrong approach. 

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Fair enough.  I guess when the media are almost on the same page (Ukraine?), then maybe question it

 

[badgerx16]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:55, AlexLaw76 said:

Fair enough.  I guess when the media are almost on the same page (Ukraine?), then maybe question it

 

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And we can all see where you stand on Ukraine on the other thread.

With regard to the Hancock messages, an anti-lockdown journalist and an anti-lockdown paper are selectively leaking snippets that can be read as justifying their position.

As Egg says, the Government were damned if they did and damned if they didn't. As for "following the science", there hadn't been a Global pandemic for 100 years, so nobody had experience of something on this scale operating with modern communications and means/ speed of travel,which means a lot of what was done was based on theoretical "war gaming". Add to the mix that the Tories had gutted and effectively closed down the UK's intelligence and response planning systems for just such an occurrence, a Government of the incompetents that could only function in relation to one issue, Brexit, and a PM who fostered his public image as a contrarian.

Hindsight is a most wonderful thing.

 

[Turkish]

  On 05/03/2023 at 11:08, badgerx16 said:

And we can all see where you stand on Ukraine on the other thread.

With regard to the Hancock messages, an anti-lockdown journalist and an anti-lockdown paper are selectively leaking snippets that can be read as justifying their position.

As Egg says, the Government were damned if they did and damned if they didn't. As for "following the science", there hadn't been a Global pandemic for 100 years, so nobody had experience of something on this scale operating with modern communications and means/ speed of travel,which means a lot of what was done was based on theoretical "war gaming". Add to the mix that the Tories had gutted and effectively closed down the UK's intelligence and response planning systems for just such an occurrence, a Government of the incompetents that could only function in relation to one issue, Brexit, and a PM who fostered his public image as a contrarian.

Hindsight is a most wonderful thing.

 

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Funny how those now saying the government were damned if they did and damned were the same ones very very critical of the governments handling of it all at the time. Constantly slating them for not doing this that and the other. Funny how the tables have turned now there are some things leaking that they don’t like. 

[egg]

  On 05/03/2023 at 17:41, Turkish said:

Funny how those now saying the government were damned if they did and damned were the same ones very very critical of the governments handling of it all at the time. Constantly slating them for not doing this that and the other. Funny how the tables have turned now there are some things leaking that they don’t like. 

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Most of us had certain views on what the government should and shouldn't do. That doesn't alter that the government were damned whatever they chose to do. 

[Weston Super Saint]

Isn't the more pertinent question; how the fuck did the Health Secretary, in the midst of a pandemic, have the time to send over 100,000 whatsapp messages in a short period of time, the majority of which were mindless drivel?  Perhaps if he had focussed more on his job....

[Turkish]

  On 05/03/2023 at 22:54, egg said:

Most of us had certain views on what the government should and shouldn't do. That doesn't alter that the government were damned whatever they chose to do. 

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I don’t remember too many people saying this at the time. What I remember is widespread criticism of everything they did. I don’t remember too many people cutting them any slack saying it’s no one alive had seen anything like this. It was endless criticism. Look further up this thread, it’s all there. The temperature seems to have changed a bit now doesn’t it. 

[Turkish]

  On 06/03/2023 at 07:08, Weston Super Saint said:

Isn't the more pertinent question; how the fuck did the Health Secretary, in the midst of a pandemic, have the time to send over 100,000 whatsapp messages in a short period of time, the majority of which were mindless drivel?  Perhaps if he had focussed more on his job....

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don’t forget he spent a lot of the pandemic shagging his mistress as well. 

[Turkish]

Interesting new “revelation” this morning that Hancock didn’t follow the science in 2020 as it would look bad on the government….

[AlexLaw76]

  On 06/03/2023 at 08:11, Turkish said:

don’t forget he spent a lot of the pandemic shagging his mistress as well. 

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As said at the time - and to much sneering - much of it was pure theatre and control 

 

 

 

[AlexLaw76]

  On 06/03/2023 at 08:22, Turkish said:

Interesting new “revelation” this morning that Hancock didn’t follow the science in 2020 as it would look bad on the government….

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We never followed the science?

Are some sort of lunatic lockdown-denier conspiracy theorist?

[Turkish]

  On 06/03/2023 at 08:35, AlexLaw76 said:

We never followed the science?

Are some sort of lunatic lockdown-denier conspiracy theorist?

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Seems like the science was ignored because it would make the government look bad.

Seems like the intention was to scare the public about Omicron.

Seems like some of the lunatics conspiracy theorists might not have been so mad after all.

But then the new mantra is that this useless tories who handled the pandemic so badly were damned if they do damned if they dont, afterall no one had seen anything like this before. 

[badgerx16]

Little and Large at it again.

[Turkish]

“When do we deploy the new variant” 

“hilarious” people were in quarantine hotels….

[Turkish]

  On 06/03/2023 at 08:48, badgerx16 said:

Little and Large at it again.

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Seems like "Little and large" might have had a point afterall. But then i wouldn't expect anything better from you.

[badgerx16]

  On 06/03/2023 at 08:54, Turkish said:

Seems like "Little and large" might have had a point afterall. But then i wouldn't expect anything better from you.

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Whilst Hancock was clearly bigging up his role as Health Secretary and Lord High Everything Else, it is dismissive of "the science" to infer that Omicron was a hoax perpetrated by him to maintain a climate of fear and control. The new variants were not "released" as a PR stunt, they were real. But you crack on - which are you ? The straight man or the funny one ?

Edited 6 March, 2023 by badgerx16

[Turkish]

  On 06/03/2023 at 09:06, badgerx16 said:

Whilst Hancock was clearly bigging up his role as Health Secretary and Lord High Everything Else, it is dismissive of "the science" to infer that Omicron was a hoax perpetrated by him to maintain a climate of fear and control. The new variants were not "released" as a PR stunt, they were real.

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No one said they were a hoax, however some people said there was a lot of scaremongering about it for something that was little more than a cold you can see it on this thread from about page 174 onwards, funny looking back. It seems like there was indeed a lot of intentional scaremongering about it and a lot of you lapped it up, anyone who disagreed was a thick cunt. 🤣

[AlexLaw76]

  On 06/03/2023 at 09:16, Turkish said:

No one said they were a hoax, however some people said there was a lot of scaremongering about it for something that was little more than a cold you can see it on this thread from about page 174 onwards, funny looking back. It seems like there was indeed a lot of intentional scaremongering about it and a lot of you lapped it up, anyone who disagreed was a thick cunt. 🤣

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It's all there, the lounge heavy weights sneering at those daring to suggest all was not as it seemed. Demanding more lockdowns and such like, slating the government for everything.

Now it is all damned if the did, damned if they didn't

 

Edited 6 March, 2023 by AlexLaw76

[whelk]

  On 06/03/2023 at 09:16, Turkish said:

No one said they were a hoax, however some people said there was a lot of scaremongering about it for something that was little more than a cold you can see it on this thread from about page 174 onwards, funny looking back. It seems like there was indeed a lot of intentional scaremongering about it and a lot of you lapped it up, anyone who disagreed was a thick cunt. 🤣

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So are you saying you thought it was little more than a cold?

[whelk]

I can’t recall many people’s thoughts since this thread started other than Lighthouse wanting lockdowns. And SalmonSI’s musings. Someone wanted the infected to be put on boats. Need ChatGPT to be able to extract and précis.

[whelk]

  On 06/03/2023 at 09:46, AlexLaw76 said:

It's all there, the lounge heavy weights sneering at those dating to suggest all was not as it seemed. Demanding more lockdowns and such like, slating the government for everything.

Now it is all damned if the did, damned if they didn't

 

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Link?

[badgerx16]

  On 06/03/2023 at 10:05, whelk said:

Link?

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It is all on Alexei's Twitter feed.

[egg]

  On 06/03/2023 at 08:08, Turkish said:

I don’t remember too many people saying this at the time. What I remember is widespread criticism of everything they did. I don’t remember too many people cutting them any slack saying it’s no one alive had seen anything like this. It was endless criticism. Look further up this thread, it’s all there. The temperature seems to have changed a bit now doesn’t it. 

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Not sure I follow you on this one Del, or understand the point you're trying to make.

Many people criticised the government, and most people could see that there were different options. Whatever you choose to say now, it's been obvious throughout that the government were caught between rocks and hard places, and that people with the opposite opinion would have whined (and did) about every decision they made. 

[revolution saint]

As far as I can see these released messages don't tell us anything we didn't already know.  All I can see are some people who were opposed to lockdowns thinking they've got some kind of smoking gun.

[saint1977]

  On 06/03/2023 at 12:46, revolution saint said:

As far as I can see these released messages don't tell us anything we didn't already know.  All I can see are some people who were opposed to lockdowns thinking they've got some kind of smoking gun.

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Exactly this. Oakeshott has excluded key bits of correspondence which contradict her arguments which are rhetorical just like the paper and wing of the Conservative Party she is employed by. The bigger mystery is why Hancock ever felt her reliable or trustworthy - her reputation and views on Covid on the conspiracy far right are hardly a secret. 

[Lighthouse]

I can believe this virus originated from a Chinese biological research lab, rather than the official line of contaminated bats in a wet met market. I can also believe the Chinese government would release said virus if it was beneficial to their cause in some way (although that doesn’t appear to be the case in this instance and it seems like a genuine error).

What I can’t believe is that if there is an evil, genius megalomaniac ready to unleash a murderous bio weapon on the world in a plot so convoluted it would stretch Moore-era James Bond, that said villain would be played by our very own jungle-dwelling, kangaroo bollock eating, Matt Hancock.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 06/03/2023 at 13:47, Lighthouse said:

I can believe this virus originated from a Chinese biological research lab, rather than the official line of contaminated bats in a wet met market. I can also believe the Chinese government would release said virus if it was beneficial to their cause in some way (although that doesn’t appear to be the case in this instance and it seems like a genuine error).

What I can’t believe is that if there is an evil, genius megalomaniac ready to unleash a murderous bio weapon on the world in a plot so convoluted it would stretch Moore-era James Bond, that said villain would be played by our very own jungle-dwelling, kangaroo bollock eating, Matt Hancock.

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It's always the ones that you least suspect. 

Just sayin'

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 06/03/2023 at 13:47, Lighthouse said:

I can believe this virus originated from a Chinese biological research lab, rather than the official line of contaminated bats in a wet met market. I can also believe the Chinese government would release said virus if it was beneficial to their cause in some way (although that doesn’t appear to be the case in this instance and it seems like a genuine error).

What I can’t believe is that if there is an evil, genius megalomaniac ready to unleash a murderous bio weapon on the world in a plot so convoluted it would stretch Moore-era James Bond, that said villain would be played by our very own jungle-dwelling, kangaroo bollock eating, Matt Hancock.

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Except he even managed to fuck that up and "released" (for the thickies, yes, I'm being sarcastic and don't really believe he released anything) Omicron, which only served to put more money in the coffers of Kleenex.

[badgerx16]

Is this CoronaGate, LockdownGate, or HancockGate ?

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 06/03/2023 at 14:57, badgerx16 said:

Is this CoronaGate, LockdownGate, or HancockGate ?

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Just Cockgate

[Trout-Tickler]

  On 05/03/2023 at 10:29, Whitey Grandad said:

How did Sweden get on? This has all been swept under the carpet now. Many countries opted for full lockdowns yet others were more relaxed. Of course climate and outdoor living were major factors but I haven’t seen any studies about the effectiveness of lockdowns.

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Sweden has already conducted and published its public investigation of how its government handled the pandemic: https://www.regeringen.se/rattsliga-dokument/statens-offentliga-utredningar/2022/02/sou-202210/

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 06/03/2023 at 16:14, Trout-Tickler said:

Sweden has already conducted and published its public investigation of how its government handled the pandemic: https://www.regeringen.se/rattsliga-dokument/statens-offentliga-utredningar/2022/02/sou-202210/

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Thanks

 

[mack rill]

something must be a foot Watson! both her indoors and her old lady have had covid test kits through the door curtesy from bony Scotland.