Man City 5-2 Saints - Match Thread

[Charlie Wayman]

Bizarre from beginning to end. Angry, frustrated and thoroughly disillusioned yet again. Half their best XI rested, never needing to get out of 3rd gear and yet they score at will and win at a canter. Where is the satisfaction of surviving in this league by being only slightly better over a season than the three relegated teams?

[SKD]

26 minutes ago, trousers said:

Guardiola: "They are the team that make us suffer the most this season without the ball."

Add that to the lift of net spend trophy and ‘the pathway’  of most irrelevant things the SWF will list as an achievement. 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

1 minute ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Bizarre from beginning to end. Angry, frustrated and thoroughly disillusioned yet again. Half their best XI rested, never needing to get out of 3rd gear and yet they score at will and win at a canter. Where is the satisfaction of surviving in this league by being only slightly better over a season than the three relegated teams?

That's the stark reality for at least half the teams in the league. Just being slightly better than the bottom three.

[Saint_Jonny]

1 hour ago, bpsaint said:

That scoreline would be a slightly less bitter pill to swallow if it hadn’t largely been our own mistakes that led to it. I know they’re the champions in waiting but as we’ve done so so many times recently we’ve handed them the 3 points on a plate. We never seem to go down fighting and losing by an odd goal, the mentality of this squad is akin to the white flag wavers of France in WWII.

Sad that it feels like some kind of hollow victory that it was “only” 5-2. How far we’ve fallen....

How far we've fallen? You do appreciated that Saints have been generally crap thoughout most of our history, right? Enjoy the purple patches while they last. Bottom half Premier League has been the norm more times that not. Being a bit shit and sometimes good is just how it is. 

[Ted Bates Statue]

2 hours ago, countysaint said:

This lot are so much worse than the class of 2005. 
Soul destroying watching this spineless shower. 
Ruining the enjoyment of watching them every time they play now!

In that season we had a defeat by the exact same scoreline to the mighty Watford, who would go on to finish a respectable 18th in the Championship.

I think that your point is a tad overblown, considering we have already racked up more points from 28 games than we managed over the full 38 in that season.

[Shroppie]

2 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

Wow, not sure I've ever seen JWP burst forward like that! 

You should try actually watching games

[angelman]

14 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

That's the stark reality for at least half the teams in the league. Just being slightly better than the bottom three.

Have to agree with you, and why my love of footie is diminished thought I carry on blindly with Saints. 

 

What's the point? I view it as a way to escape the wife rather than expecting to win anything. 

[DT]

20 minutes ago, northam soul said:

I keep reading that we were brave but I just don’t see it.

When city and other teams for that matter get through our midfield it invariably ends up with a goal a shot on goal or at least a bit of chaos in our box.

When we get through their midfield it invariably ends with a pass back to the centre half’s and goalkeeper.

That is not brave its fucking gutless, now we may not have the quality that city have but that has always been the case with the top sides.

The difference nowadays is we don’t ever look like coming back into a game and seem content to pass the fuck out of the half way line.

 

Yeah. Brave is definitely a word I wouldn’t associate with our lot. It’s the lack of guts and bravery that’s precisely the problem. We need some solidity and fight. Resilience. Too many ‘flick on’ players and Bertrand’s lackadaisical wag of playing seems to sum it up perfectly. Plays like a training game at all times. No-one with balls out desire. That’s the main problem for me. That and a keeper (today) who doesn’t do anything to install confidence in those ahead of him. Forster at least appears to do that, even if he has a different set of faults. 

[Shroppie]

2 hours ago, countysaint said:

This lot are so much worse than the class of 2005. 
Soul destroying watching this spineless shower. 
Ruining the enjoyment of watching them every time they play now!

I've read so much utter tripe on this forum over the years, but this is probably the most ridiculous.

Please stop trolling. You really aren't good at it.

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, Chez said:

we play some nice football at times. We don't have forwards and wingers that do enough in the final third and defensively we are not great. We get caught on the break a lot. There is a lot of room for improvement. Get rid of more deadwood, free wages to sign players, make sure those players are decent and things could come up rosey. 

This is how I see it and why I'm behind Ralph. I see that we have a philosophy, a way of playing, something everyone has seemingly bought into.

We are let down by the lack of quality and squad depth. That's it. The way we play, the way we approach games in the main is a progressive and modern way....but if we had a tad more quality in the back 4 and up front/wide, then I think the story would be amazing.

I prefer seeing a team with a plan and a way to play than an Allardyce play for a 1-0/long ball bullshit, which is very short-termism and doesn't get you anywhere. What's letting us down is the lack of quality and depth, not the manager's ability or his philosophy - in my opinion

[macca155]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

Just putting it out there, what if we went full strength from the start, still shipped 3 or 4, but lost KWP and Diallo to a reoccurrence and they were out for 'weeks' again?

I'd say that would have been a much worse outcome. I see why he did what he did tonight. We don't have the luxury of two 11s though, which is why it becomes a bit square pegs when we do want to change it up.

Totally agree, I guess I was just bemoaning our fragile defence which just seems way worse than any other Premier league team.

Lets hope it was worth it and our mojo is regained against Brighton

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, macca155 said:

Totally agree, I guess I was just bemoaning our fragile defence which just seems way worse than any other Premier league team.

Lets hope it was worth it and our mojo is regained against Brighton

That just comes down to the lack of quality/depth in the squad. We had a few square pegs in key defensive positions and that makes a huge difference against teams of the quality of city.

Not much else we could do though, certainly wouldn't have risked KWP tonight.

[bpsaint]

1 hour ago, Saint_Jonny said:

How far we've fallen? You do appreciated that Saints have been generally crap thoughout most of our history, right? Enjoy the purple patches while they last. Bottom half Premier League has been the norm more times that not. Being a bit shit and sometimes good is just how it is. 

It was more indicative of how far we’ve fallen over the past year to be fair not so much our entire history.

With our project restart form and then reaching the summit of the league earlier this season there was a definite  feeling around the club like we’d turned a corner, that we might be able to push for a European place or at least a top ten finish. Fast forward a couple of months and there’s an air of apathy, and a general consensus of “yeah we lost 5-2 but at least it wasn’t 8 or 9 eh!”.

There was a time when conceding 5 would have been embarrassing enough for a team like us, now it’s just become par for the course and we’re all pretty much numb to it. Take Ralph in his post match interview for example, personally I’d like to see our manager absolutely raging at that performance and scoreline, instead his upbeat demeanour would have you thinking we’d just come away with a point.

 

[Teddeer]

3 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

It was more indicative of how far we’ve fallen over the past year to be fair not so much our entire history.

With our project restart form and then reaching the summit of the league earlier this season there was a definite  feeling around the club like we’d turned a corner, that we might be able to push for a European place or at least a top ten finish. Fast forward a couple of months and there’s an air of apathy, and a general consensus of “yeah we lost 5-2 but at least it wasn’t 8 or 9 eh!”.

There was a time when conceding 5 would have been embarrassing enough for a team like us, now it’s just become par for the course and we’re all pretty much numb to it. Take Ralph in his post match interview for example, personally I’d like to see our manager absolutely raging at that performance and scoreline, instead his upbeat demeanour would have you thinking we’d just come away with a point.

 

Maybe factor in that every one of their starting line up was better than our's plus their entire bench plus other squad members would walk straight into our team.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Bizarre from beginning to end. Angry, frustrated and thoroughly disillusioned yet again. Half their best XI rested, never needing to get out of 3rd gear and yet they score at will and win at a canter. Where is the satisfaction of surviving in this league by being only slightly better over a season than the three relegated teams?

Do they have a best XI ? This is what happens when you throw unlimited amounts of money at a football club.

[washsaint]

Aside from terrible defending (what's new there?) I thought Saints acquitted themselves well and a lot of the one touch fluid passing and movement seems to be returning.  Hopefully we can finish the season strongly and strengthen in the summer.

[Jonnyboy]

1 hour ago, Shroppie said:

You should try actually watching games

Thanks for the advice 🙄 I watch every Saints game. I've never seen a turn of pace from him like that. I wish he did it every match. Seen hundreds of backwards passes though. 

[Saint_lambden]

Let's face it - we probably would have conceded 5 with the same team if we'd have parked the bus too. We didn't learn anything we didn't already know. Performance level was actually good but individual errors cost again. Only decision I really disagreed with was putting McCarthy back in. 

On the plus side - the confidence won't have been ruined; another goal for Adams; JWP and Tella impressing again. Win against Brighton and it's 6 from 9 for the week which we all would have taken at the start. 

[nta786]

It’s really annoying reading comments everywhere such as YouTube, Twitter and my friends that all that is being discussed is that Foden penalty claim.

My mate just said ‘how have you guys complained about VAR all season you got away with murder with that call let alone a robbery’

A shame that’s how the neutrals who don’t follow our game week in week out will see it

[Jeremy]

9 hours ago, Saint_lambden said:

Let's face it - we probably would have conceded 5 with the same team if we'd have parked the bus too. We didn't learn anything we didn't already know. Performance level was actually good but individual errors cost again. Only decision I really disagreed with was putting McCarthy back in. 

On the plus side - the confidence won't have been ruined; another goal for Adams; JWP and Tella impressing again. Win against Brighton and it's 6 from 9 for the week which we all would have taken at the start. 

This. And other posters who have highlighted the huge chasm in the PL between the Top 6 flush with money, the middle-range teams, and the rest who annually really struggle usually among themselves to stay up.

Better beat Brighton.

Edited 11 March, 2021 by Jeremy

[Turkish]

3 hours ago, Jeremy said:

This. And other posters who have highlighted the huge chasm in the PL between the Top 6 flush with money, the middle-range teams, and the rest who annually really struggle usually among themselves to stay up.  I really like Saints because they are (usually) scrappers and have character. A bit like some of the posters who are characters on here. It's funny actually; the All Blacks win far more than they lose but it was a real breath of fresh air when they finally got beaten by Ireland (twice in quick succession) and recently Argentina.  All, of course, very well-deserved. Saints is my football equivalent of an Ireland or Argentina. I have never been interested in following those arrogant juggernaut clubs because, for me, they aren't real. SFC is.

But man, we better beat Brighton!

You looking forward to the golf clubs opening in a couple of weeks time pal?

[Toussaint]

7 hours ago, nta786 said:

It’s really annoying reading comments everywhere such as YouTube, Twitter and my friends that all that is being discussed is that Foden penalty claim.

My mate just said ‘how have you guys complained about VAR all season you got away with murder with that call let alone a robbery’

A shame that’s how the neutrals who don’t follow our game week in week out will see it

I think they got away with one as well, Shevchenko clawing, pulling and grabbing Vestagagard in the area, it was only the size difference that perhaps it didn’t register as seriously as it was. It’s one of those, anywhere else on the pitch it’s a free kick.

[Jeremy]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

You looking forward to the golf clubs opening in a couple of weeks time pal?

Sorry, lost me. Are you using "pal" ironically or passive-aggressively?

[Turkish]

7 minutes ago, Jeremy said:

Sorry, lost me. Are you using "pal" ironically or passive-aggressively?

Just a common term of endearment where i live pal. I thought you were a golfer, am i mistaken?

[Sarnia Cherie]

10 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Bizarre from beginning to end. Angry, frustrated and thoroughly disillusioned yet again. Half their best XI rested, never needing to get out of 3rd gear and yet they score at will and win at a canter. Where is the satisfaction of surviving in this league by being only slightly better over a season than the three relegated teams?

It will always be the same with teams like Manchester City. They have a world class manager and huge amounts of money at their disposal. Therefore top class players are attracted to a club like City. They want the high wages, Champions League football, the chances of winning trophies and the Pep experience. Injuries don't affect them too much as they have such a depth of squad. Just look at their bench and tot up how much money alone is sitting there. We may all be Premier League clubs but the playing field is by no means level. I am puzzled by your post. Going to the Etihad will result in most teams coming away without any points. On a personal level I view games against the Big 6 as great to win, pleased with a draw and accepting of a lose. The games Saints have to concentrate on are those with the teams below and just above them in the League. I don't know how long you have been a Saints supporter but for me it's decades. Yes, it's a roller coaster ride and amongst the good times there are just as many times I could tear my hair out with one thing and another but Saints always have been and always will be my team. I am proud to be a Saints supporter. 

[Jeremy]

6 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Just a common term of endearment where i live pal. I thought you were a golfer, am i mistaken?

University-educated and very well-read but still don't get it.  I thought you were a tosser, am I mistaken? Tosser is a common term of abuse where I live mate. 

Can we leave it now?

Edited 11 March, 2021 by Jeremy

[Greenridge]

20 minutes ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

It will always be the same with teams like Manchester City. They have a world class manager and huge amounts of money at their disposal. Therefore top class players are attracted to a club like City. They want the high wages, Champions League football, the chances of winning trophies and the Pep experience. Injuries don't affect them too much as they have such a depth of squad. Just look at their bench and tot up how much money alone is sitting there. We may all be Premier League clubs but the playing field is by no means level. I am puzzled by your post. Going to the Etihad will result in most teams coming away without any points. On a personal level I view games against the Big 6 as great to win, pleased with a draw and accepting of a lose. The games Saints have to concentrate on are those with the teams below and just above them in the League. I don't know how long you have been a Saints supporter but for me it's decades. Yes, it's a roller coaster ride and amongst the good times there are just as many times I could tear my hair out with one thing and another but Saints always have been and always will be my team. I am proud to be a Saints supporter. 

I remember years back when Sunderland were doing their yo-yoing between leagues. They interviewed some old boy and asked him 'you must be really disappointed on the relegation?'. 'Not at all' he said. 'Quite the opposite actually. I'll get to see us win a lot of games and enjoy the season and we'll be in the mix for promotion again. It's better than watching us lose every week and get relegated!'.

[JRM]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

You looking forward to the golf clubs opening in a couple of weeks time pal?

I assumed he was the bloke who used to pretend to live in Kenya, or is that him as well ?

[Heisenberg]

after the initial anger and disappointed of another inept and pathetic team performance I've slept on it and can confirm I still feel the same.

Anyone that is "proud" of the boys and finds positives in a 5-2 hammering isn't for me

 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, JRM said:

I assumed he was the bloke who used to pretend to live in Kenya, or is that him as well ?

He's pretended to live in Kenya and Glasgow, now New Zealand. he's also a scratch golf apparently. Posting at 3am this morning though is quite a commitment to the cause.

[JRM]

12 hours ago, Turkish said:

24 of those since the start of February which is even more worrying 

It is, not a good trend, but of those 24 how many were KWP and Forster in the side for? 

[Turkish]

31 minutes ago, Jeremy said:

University-educated and very well-read but still don't get it.  I thought you were a tosser, am I mistaken? Tosser is a common term of abuse where I live mate. 

Can we leave it now?

Opinions vary, one mans tosser is another mans top lad. Unsure why a simple question about looking forward to when the golf clubs open has provoked such a abusive response. 

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, JRM said:

It is, not a good trend, but of those 24 how many were KWP and Forster in the side for? 

Was it the Arsenal cup game KWP went off injured? That was when things started to really go downhill. 

[WokingSaint]

10 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

That just comes down to the lack of quality/depth in the squad. We had a few square pegs in key defensive positions and that makes a huge difference against teams of the quality of city.

Not much else we could do though, certainly wouldn't have risked KWP tonight.

I got the feeling that a) there are winable games coming up and b) they have a good chance of extending the cup run. For these reasons they were not going to 'bust a gut' in this game and risk injury.

[cloggy saint]

14th best team in England gets beaten by one of the best teams in the world and people are angry and disappointed? It's really not easy trying to fathom the mentality of some people here.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Just now, cloggy saint said:

14th best team in England gets beaten by one of the best teams in the world and people are angry and disappointed? It's really not easy trying to fathom the mentality of some people here.

Noddy club mentality on show here. Let’s go to City, doff our caps and let them do what they want. Afterwards we can praise our heroes for keeping the score down to 5. Well done lads, proud of you, after all there’s such a big gap between us. Cheltenham gave them more of a game than we did, Nigel’s newly promoted side did, WBA did, but it doesn’t matter because city are soooo much better than us. 

 

[disconnect]

Looked like a few players knew the battle was up before the whistle was blown. Really sad to see, but that's what happens when a few of them know they'll be in the team no matter what. 

Thought Stephens in midfield was a failed experiment - doesn't have the engine to run around enough and even by the end of the first half was just strolling around. Looked like JWP probably covered at least a third more ground than Jack!

Bit harsh to judge Salisu on playing left back - clearly not his position.

Bring back Fraze for Brighton. McCarthy has been generally good the past few seasons, but since Christmas there's just been too many goals conceded. 

 

[cloggy saint]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Noddy club mentality on show here. Let’s go to City, doff our caps and let them do what they want. Afterwards we can praise our heroes for keeping the score down to 5. Well done lads, proud of you, after all there’s such a big gap between us. Cheltenham gave them more of a game than we did, Nigel’s newly promoted side did, WBA did, but it doesn’t matter because city are soooo much better than us. 

 

Exactly, City are so much better than us and everyone else. anyone who thought we'd get anything from this game is beyond deluded.

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 minutes ago, disconnect said:

Looked like a few players knew the battle was up before the whistle was blown. 

 

What the “well done lad, we only lost by 3” merchants fail to understand is that it’s not particularly the result, but the manner of the defeat that upset some of us. There’s not one player who can look in the mirror and truthfully say they gave it their all. Had we lost by 7, but players were chucking themselves in the way of shots, getting stuck in, battling, and generally making it hard for them, I’d have been the first to applaud their efforts. They didn’t, they were quite happy to knock the ball about in safe areas, quite happy to only lose by 3. Fernandinho put in more tackles and fouls than our soft as shite midfield,and he was playing with a cigar in his mouth and his slippers on. It was a subservient display, propaganda football at its finest. 

[Lighthouse]

6 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Noddy club mentality on show here. Let’s go to City, doff our caps and let them do what they want. Afterwards we can praise our heroes for keeping the score down to 5. Well done lads, proud of you, after all there’s such a big gap between us. Cheltenham gave them more of a game than we did, Nigel’s newly promoted side did, WBA did, but it doesn’t matter because city are soooo much better than us. 

 

Or they could have beaten us by 5, like Burnley and West Brom. Instead they only beat us by 3, like they did against Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Olympiakos, Marseille (twice), Burnley (again) and Wolves. Still, it was their reserve side, having to rely on sh*t like Foden, De Bruyne, Silva and Gundogan.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

Or they could have beaten us by 5, like Burnley and West Brom. Instead they only beat us by 3, like they did against Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Olympiakos, Marseille (twice), Burnley (again) and Wolves. Still, it was their reserve side, having to rely on sh*t like Foden, De Bruyne, Silva and Gundogan.

Regardless of how good they are, you can still make it difficult for them. You can still tackle, still block shots, still get stuck in. Our defending was woeful. If they needed to score 9 they would have done. It’s pathetic that the majority will accept that, just because they’re better than us. They barely broke sweat, half of them didn’t even need a shower after the game. 

[BARCELONASAINT]

Finding it hard to understand why so many are angry about last night, angry with the performance and angry with the team selection!!??

I was absolutely delighted to RH rest the likes of Diallo, KWP and Minime and not risk them getting inured again after just coming back on Saturday against Sheffield Utd.

It was absolutely the correct call with Brighton coming up and a game we realistically should expect to win.

As far as the performance went I thought we played some good sharp football considering we had Stephens in the middle, Bertrand out of position at RB, Salisu playing LB and Redmond who goes backwards with every game he plays.

 

[Fan The Flames]

Yeah think of all the 'making it difficult for them' points we missed out on, that could be the difference between staying up and going down.

Isn't equally noddy to think all we are good for is to make it difficult for these teams. We tried to go toe to toe with them trying to get back to what we were doing on our good run, trying to turn this shit corner we are on. This will undoubtedly assist in our next run of games. But hey let's put all this to one side just to do backs to the wall up 'em football that doesn't win points or help our development, but stops us looking embarrassing to people who don't give a shit.

[Charlie Wayman]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Opinions vary, one mans tosser is another mans top lad. Unsure why a simple question about looking forward to when the golf clubs open has provoked such a abusive response. 

In fairness it was the word 'pal' that he objected to and where it was placed in your sentence. He read it quite reasonably as sarcasm and a put down. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Just now, Fan The Flames said:

Yeah think of all the 'making it difficult for them' points we missed out on, that could be the difference between staying up and going down.

Isn't equally noddy to think all we are good for is to make it difficult for these teams. We tried to go toe to toe with them trying to get back to what we were doing on our good run, trying to turn this shit corner we are on. This will undoubtedly assist in our next run of games. But hey let's put all this to one side just to do backs to the wall up 'em football that doesn't win points or help our development, but stops us looking embarrassing to people who don't give a shit.

This is the attitude that leads to two 9-0’s in two seasons. It’s not a coincidence that it’s us it keeps happening to, not a coincidence that we give up more points from winning positions than anyone. When it’s acceptable to only let in 5, acceptable for the captain to duck out of the way of a free kick, and acceptable to let the opposition have a free shot every fucking time, it’s where you end up. 

[Totton Saint]

When a manager says he enjoyed watching his team lose 5-2 we really are in trouble.

I shall  be glad when the pandemic is over and Saints are televised about twice a season.Then I will not be suckered into watching their every game.

 

[DT]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

This is the attitude that leads to two 9-0’s in two seasons. It’s not a coincidence that it’s us it keeps happening to, not a coincidence that we give up more points from winning positions than anyone. When it’s acceptable to only let in 5, acceptable for the captain to duck out of the way of a free kick, and acceptable to let the opposition have a free shot every fucking time, it’s where you end up. 

Epitomised by the way we were knocking the ball about at the end, seemingly content with the job done, and keeping the score below 9. When we had our decent opening spell they also seemed happy to not concede, on many occasions knocking it all the way back to McCarthy from well inside their half, playing propoganda football, as the wee Gordon Strachan used to call it. It's all show, and then crumbles when they deign to attack. Against Brighton I will be looking for some grit, and balls, but am not holding my breath. Too many soft players, with a manager whose style does nothing to adapt or, occasionally, actually grind out a result. No, there aren't many alternatives, and I'd prefer to have Ralph, but god I wish he wouldn't come off a 5-2 defeat and say he was happy how we played. It's like a parallel universe.

[Charlie Wayman]

What the heck was Hasenhüttl doing at the end of the match ingratiating himself with Guardiola. He should have been angry and spitting blood and bawling at idiots like Stephens and Adams for making costly mistakes, not smiling and behaving as though he had been a very good boy and needed praise from the All High Priest of World Football.

If you're a Saint Ralph than act like one. We don't do crumbs from the table of arrogant twits. Grow some will you for goodness sake. It is not OK to smile and fawn when your team has just been thrashed 5-2 and made to look like chumps.

Guardiola succeeds because he has hundreds of zillions of ackers to buy the best players in the world not because he is some kind of over-arching Authority who must not be challenged. All the time you hold these people in such high esteem you will always be in awe and never be able to challenge them. 

[Turkish]

55 minutes ago, BARCELONASAINT said:

Finding it hard to understand why so many are angry about last night, angry with the performance and angry with the team selection!!??

I was absolutely delighted to RH rest the likes of Diallo, KWP and Minime and not risk them getting inured again after just coming back on Saturday against Sheffield Utd.

It was absolutely the correct call with Brighton coming up and a game we realistically should expect to win.

As far as the performance went I thought we played some good sharp football considering we had Stephens in the middle, Bertrand out of position at RB, Salisu playing LB and Redmond who goes backwards with every game he plays.

 

I don’t think anyone is angry. It’s more people seem to be thinking it was a great performance and result when the reality is we lost 5-2 with at least 3 of those goals being down to defensive errors. Also at one point around the 5th it looked like it was going to get very ugly. City scored 5 and to be blunt didn’t have to work very hard for any of them. 

[wild-saint]

13 hours ago, angelman said:

Have to agree with you, and why my love of footie is diminished thought I carry on blindly with Saints. 

 

What's the point? I view it as a way to escape the wife rather than expecting to win anything. 

surely it would be less painful to divorce her if thats the reason why you watch saints