Summer Transfer Window 2021

[Saint Martini]

16 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Good point. I wonder if getting around sell on fees by swap deals is allowed? If a club loses millions from a sell on fee in this way I could imagine they would be none too pleased, and perhaps litigate a fair sell on amount (determined by some tribunal)?

 

12 hours ago, Cartman said:

It's dodgy but I would imagine it to be hard to do anything against it. Best example I can think of was when Monaco bought both Moutinho and James Rodríguez from Porto. Moutinho had a particularly high sell on % to Sporting and there was some suspicion that James' fee was inflated and Moutinho's deflated. Nothing came out of it though.

 

1 hour ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

I'd be surprised.  They'll have to place a value against Obafemi for accounting and tax reasons, so they'll have a "total value" associated to the Armstrong transfer that I assume the % sell on fee will be associated to that.  That said, the value associated to Obafemi can be significantly deflated for convenience.

There's some interesting stuff in Mitchel Vorms transfer to Spurs from Swansea. To get out of paying FC Utrecht anything they made Vorms transfer a free transfer and argued that the swap deal was only Davies for Sigurdsson. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/swansea-city-win-court-battle-11398740

So to get out of paying Newcastle anything Saints would have to trade Obafemi for another random Blackburn player and then sign Armstrong on a free transfer (i.e. very unlikely).

[Saint86]

So so far we've shifted Gunn for circa £5million (+wages)

Bertrand and Hoedt are off the wage bill.

Signed RP for circa £11m, and Theo for free + wages.

Possible further incomings are Williams for a rumoured 65k/week (+ loan fee?), and Armstrong for somewhere in the region of £10-15m.

Means we're down around £25m on transfers and have increased the wage budget (with 4 players in and 3 on their way).

I assume Vestergard is going for circa £15m at a guess? Then maybe Lemina (say £4m if we're lucky)? Does that still leave us slightly short with respect to both the net wage and net transfer front? Or do people think we'll be increasing wages and having a net spend? And if we do sign a new CB as well, i wonder where that money is coming from? - Thinking Obafemi (who i think has potential) and maybe Ely could be on their way? Or of course, are we simply selling ings?

 

Edited 12 July, 2021 by Saint86

[Disco Stu]

3 hours ago, Saint86 said:

So so far we've shifted Gunn for circa £5million (+wages)

Bertrand and Hoedt are off the wage bill.

Signed RP for circa £11m, and Theo for free + wages.

Possible further incomings are Williams for a rumoured 65k/week (+ loan fee?), and Armstrong for somewhere in the region of £10-15m.

Means we're down around £25m on transfers and have increased the wage budget (with 4 players in and 3 on their way).

I assume Vestergard is going for circa £15m at a guess? Then maybe Lemina (say £4m if we're lucky)? Does that still leave us slightly short with respect to both the net wage and net transfer front? Or do people think we'll be increasing wages and having a net spend? And if we do sign a new CB as well, i wonder where that money is coming from? - Thinking Obafemi (who i think has potential) and maybe Ely could be on their way? Or of course, are we simply selling ings?

 

Are there not other avenues of income besides transfers that help increase our budget such as prize money and television rights?

[SaintsFan86]

2 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Are there not other avenues of income besides transfers that help increase our budget such as prize money and television rights?

We are getting 7.5 Million too from sponsership.

[Matthew Le God]

8 minutes ago, SaintsFan86 said:

We are getting 7.5 Million too from sponsership.

It is a lot more than that. Commercial income is circa £20m.

Plus matchday income £17m and broadcast income for a mid table finish £110m+.

[Diabolus Ex Machina]

49 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

It is a lot more than that. Commercial income is circa £20m.

Plus matchday income £17m and broadcast income for a mid table finish £110m+.

As per the last posted accounts in February this year for 2020, revenues came in from…

·        Broadcasting - £93,458,000 (includes merit payments for number of matches shown on TV and final league position)

·        Match Day - £14,466,000

·        Commercial - £17,047,000

·        Other - £1,511,000

·        Overall turnover = £126,482,000

Operating costs for the year came to £150,431,000 of which £114,163,000 was on employees (£99,927,000 on wages/salaries for players, coaches and other staff).

That led to a loss of around £24m prior to any player trading. Turns out running a Premier League club is quite expensive.

Forget about making any money for other signings through other revenue streams – unless we get into Europe it just ain’t happening. Long term we should be looking to reduce costs (namely wages) while also finding ways to increase commercial revenues but that won’t happen overnight.

So how can we afford to bring players in? My expectation is that we will either use some of the loan money as a stop gap (yes I know it is there to cover the effects of the pandemic but if it is business critical to get a player in I’m sure they would dip into it a little) or we are planning to move more players on in the off season (of which Vestergaard and Ings are the most likely candidates with their contracts running down).

I’m sure there’s some accounting practices that also occur such as deferred payments or other deferred revenue due to timing of yearly accounts submission (for example this set of figures didn’t include the revenue from our last 6 games of that season as they fell within the next financial year due to the pandemic shifting the end of the season to later). That may allow us to spend more now by spreading out the cost but may restrict us in future years.

[Saint86]

2 hours ago, Diabolus Ex Machina said:

As per the last posted accounts in February this year for 2020, revenues came in from…

·        Broadcasting - £93,458,000 (includes merit payments for number of matches shown on TV and final league position)

·        Match Day - £14,466,000

·        Commercial - £17,047,000

·        Other - £1,511,000

·        Overall turnover = £126,482,000

Operating costs for the year came to £150,431,000 of which £114,163,000 was on employees (£99,927,000 on wages/salaries for players, coaches and other staff).

That led to a loss of around £24m prior to any player trading. Turns out running a Premier League club is quite expensive.

Forget about making any money for other signings through other revenue streams – unless we get into Europe it just ain’t happening. Long term we should be looking to reduce costs (namely wages) while also finding ways to increase commercial revenues but that won’t happen overnight.

So how can we afford to bring players in? My expectation is that we will either use some of the loan money as a stop gap (yes I know it is there to cover the effects of the pandemic but if it is business critical to get a player in I’m sure they would dip into it a little) or we are planning to move more players on in the off season (of which Vestergaard and Ings are the most likely candidates with their contracts running down).

I’m sure there’s some accounting practices that also occur such as deferred payments or other deferred revenue due to timing of yearly accounts submission (for example this set of figures didn’t include the revenue from our last 6 games of that season as they fell within the next financial year due to the pandemic shifting the end of the season to later). That may allow us to spend more now by spreading out the cost but may restrict us in future years.

That's a great summary of the financial situation re player trading! 

Edited 12 July, 2021 by Saint86

[screechio]

Just seen that Mikkel Bakker has moved on from PSG for 7million euros. Am I right in thinking he was rumoured to have visited Staplewood when PSG closed their U23's down? 

[Dusic]

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/19438258.southampton-swap-deal-unlikely-end-blackburn-rovers-stalemate/

Doesn't sound like there is anything likely on Armstrong anytime soon.

I think this will be tied to Ings departure.

[wild-saint]

2 hours ago, Dusic said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/19438258.southampton-swap-deal-unlikely-end-blackburn-rovers-stalemate/

Doesn't sound like there is anything likely on Armstrong anytime soon.

I think this will be tied to Ings departure.

Surely we could offer Obafemi for free based on a lower valuation for armstrong. They also save on the 40% fee to newcastle. As long as the deals are legally separate newcastle wouldnt be able do anything but whine. 

[Give it to Ron]

1 minute ago, wild-saint said:

Surely we could offer Obafemi for free based on a lower valuation for armstrong. They also save on the 40% fee to newcastle. As long as the deals are legally separate newcastle wouldnt be able do anything but whine. 

Do you think Obafemi agent will be happy with that losing out a large wad?

[Billy the Kidd]

12 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

Do you think Obafemi agent will be happy with that losing out a large wad?

If this were to happen, I would imagine we would simply pay a higher Agent fee.

[woodsaint1]

Its looks like N'Lundulu or Obafemi are off according to Obafemis recent social media

[FarehamSaintJames]

9 minutes ago, woodsaint1 said:

Its looks like N'Lundulu or Obafemi are off according to Obafemis recent social media

What’s been said?

[SKD]

22 minutes ago, woodsaint1 said:

Its looks like N'Lundulu or Obafemi are off according to Obafemis recent social media

Hopefully both. 

[SuperSAINT]

39 minutes ago, woodsaint1 said:

Its looks like N'Lundulu or Obafemi are off according to Obafemis recent social media

 

29 minutes ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

What’s been said?

 

[disconnect]

4 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

 

 

N'Lundulu needs a loan to get games playing regularly. Being thrown on with 5 mins to go every third or fourth match hasnt really done him many favours. He can then also (hopefully) work on his celebration.

[ErwinK1961]

9 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

 

 

Would suggest that's N'lundulu off - hopefully a permanent as I can't see him making it here.

Obafemi will either need to go too, or sign a new deal as only a year left. 

[Saint Garrett]

12 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

 

 

Swap for Armstrong a go-er?!

[SuperSAINT]

3 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

Swap for Armstrong a go-er?!

As @ErwinK1961 above says, it’s probably Dan.  Not seen him in the training pics.

[Saint86]

Fancy it will be a loan deal for him? He's got potential but he needs regular games and a chance to learn and develop at senior level. He isn't going to get that here.

[SuperSAINT]

2 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Fancy it will be a loan deal for him? He's got potential but he needs regular games and a chance to learn and develop at senior level. He isn't going to get that here.

It will certainly be telling.

I read that he might go out on loan & sign a contract extension. 
 

[Saint86]

8 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

It will certainly be telling.

I read that he might go out on loan & sign a contract extension. 
 

I'd give him a loan and a contract extension myself - but we don't see him every day. Ralph did play him consistently last year when he could have played Tella/Redmond up top or not loaned out Long (not saying much with that latter comparison). And hell, its not like we've got much choice eitherway!

Personally think we'll keep Obafemi as well, he offers blistering pace and reckon Ralph likes him despite criticising his focus etc.

Edited 13 July, 2021 by Saint86

[SuperSAINT]

 

[skintsaint]

6 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

 

One for the B team by the looks of it, but would rather that 5m put towards the first team if this rumour has legs.

[Saint Garrett]

Bought him on FM, yet to make his debut, true story

[Give it to Ron]

2m loan fee for Williams with wages at 65k we could buy someone from Championship who could do the job as backup for that lot.

Walk away no run

🚨| Southampton are prepared to walk away from negotiations to sign Brandon Williams on loan, with Manchester United demanding a £2million loan fee - the 20-year-old still wants to join #saintsfc [@TheAthleticUK]

Edited 14 July, 2021 by Give it to Ron

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

2m loan fee for Williams with wages at 65k we could buy someone from Championship who could do the job as backup for that lot.

Walk away no run

£2m bought Jos Hooiveld a decade ago. These days it would barely buy a League 1 player.

[Give it to Ron]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

£2m bought Jos Hooiveld a decade ago. These days it would barely buy a League 1 player.

You are forgetting the 65k a week we are expected to pay for a back up

i liked Jos 100% effort not the greatest but served us well in those lower divisions 

Edited 14 July, 2021 by Give it to Ron

[Saint Garrett]

It's about £6m over the season, a fair wack for borrowing someone else's player for sure, but better than spending the same on a lower league player who is nowhere near good enough, or someone that'll cost £15m inc wages and also may not be good enough.

It makes sense to bring in Williams, especially given he can play both sides, but it's not great long term planning. The other option would be to bring in someone who is 30+ and have higher wages but could sign on a low transfer fee, much like Bertrand...

I'm torn on this one, and I'm sure the club are too. Depends what other options there are out there. 

[tajjuk]

It would only make sense IMO if it was a loan with an agreed buy option at the end, but just to borrow him for a year it seems a waste. If Man Utd want someone else to develop/train their players they shouldn't expect fees for it and all his wages IMO, as the player clearly wants game time and if he develops well then that benefits Utd. 

I understand a loan fee for a player in his mid 20s who the club basically doesn't want but buying clubs can't afford to purchase, but not for a developing youngster, hardly like he's a proven premier league player. 

[qwertyell]

41 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

£2m bought Jos Hooiveld a decade ago. These days it would barely buy a League 1 player.

Sheffield United got Jayden Bogle (who would be a very decent back up option for us) from Derby for around £3m last year.

Deals are out there if you're willing to look.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

1 hour ago, Give it to Ron said:

2m loan fee for Williams with wages at 65k we could buy someone from Championship who could do the job as backup for that lot.

Walk away no run

🚨| Southampton are prepared to walk away from negotiations to sign Brandon Williams on loan, with Manchester United demanding a £2million loan fee - the 20-year-old still wants to join #saintsfc [@TheAthleticUK]

23 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

Sheffield United got Jayden Bogle (who would be a very decent back up option for us) from Derby for around £3m last year.

Deals are out there if you're willing to look.

If he's covering both sides then this player is going to play plenty of games. We need someone good, not just a backup to sit on the bench.

£2m may be too much for Williams but we have to look for another quality first-teamer

[Lee On Solent Saint]

41 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

It would only make sense IMO if it was a loan with an agreed buy option at the end, but just to borrow him for a year it seems a waste. If Man Utd want someone else to develop/train their players they shouldn't expect fees for it and all his wages IMO, as the player clearly wants game time and if he develops well then that benefits Utd. 

I understand a loan fee for a player in his mid 20s who the club basically doesn't want but buying clubs can't afford to purchase, but not for a developing youngster, hardly like he's a proven premier league player. 

I like the loan system, and I don't think in the past we have utilised it enough. However, I do think it's too much to expect clubs to stump up a loan fee and cover wages. It should be one or the other in my view, not both. 

[qwertyell]

49 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

If he's covering both sides then this player is going to play plenty of games. We need someone good, not just a backup to sit on the bench.

£2m may be too much for Williams but we have to look for another quality first-teamer

When have we had quality first teamers as back up full backs?

Our best premier league season ever, we had Cuco Martina and barely out of the academy Matt Targett.

Someone serviceable who isn't a total liability will suffice. We've already got our starting full backs. We're not going to build a squad of 22 starters, just to cover all bases.

[simo]

Looking at Hayden from Newcastle apparently. 

[Saint Garrett]

53 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

When have we had quality first teamers as back up full backs?

Our best premier league season ever, we had Cuco Martina and barely out of the academy Matt Targett.

Someone serviceable who isn't a total liability will suffice. We've already got our starting full backs. We're not going to build a squad of 22 starters, just to cover all bases.

Having 3 decent full backs, 2 of which can play either side would be pretty good, and 1 a couple other options as a 4th option (Stephens, Bednarek, Diallo, JWP) makes sense to me.  The drop in quality if one gets injured or banned has been a real problem.  Just whether that option is Williams in on loan for best part of £6m...

[SuperSAINT]

3 hours ago, SuperSAINT said:

 

http://sportwitness.co.uk/defender-brighton-southamptons-radar-team-asking-around-e5m-transfer-negotiable/

[ErwinK1961]

2 hours ago, tajjuk said:

It would only make sense IMO if it was a loan with an agreed buy option at the end, but just to borrow him for a year it seems a waste. If Man Utd want someone else to develop/train their players they shouldn't expect fees for it and all his wages IMO, as the player clearly wants game time and if he develops well then that benefits Utd. 

I understand a loan fee for a player in his mid 20s who the club basically doesn't want but buying clubs can't afford to purchase, but not for a developing youngster, hardly like he's a proven premier league player. 

This is the way I see it - covering all his wages fair enough, but paying another £2m on top to develop another teams player, they can forget it - unless it's a down payment on a buy option at the end of the loan. 

[whiteleySaint30]

1 hour ago, ErwinK1961 said:

This is the way I see it - covering all his wages fair enough, but paying another £2m on top to develop another teams player, they can forget it - unless it's a down payment on a buy option at the end of the loan. 

So if this is the case why have we spent a month or so chasing him - these are surely the basics you establish at the outset negotiations- Shambles. Same old PR bull#hit to get people to renew and then we will get the usual 'we tried our very best in a tough market'

[the saint in winchester]

3 hours ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

I like the loan system, and I don't think in the past we have utilised it enough. However, I do think it's too much to expect clubs to stump up a loan fee and cover wages. It should be one or the other in my view, not both. 

Agree with you. £2M loan fee PLUS £65k pw ends up at a £4.5M deal. I'd sooner BUY a championship player, pay a wage level acceptable to all, then keep or sell on for an increased price.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, the saint in winchester said:

Agree with you. £2M loan fee PLUS £65k pw ends up at a £4.5M deal. I'd sooner BUY a championship player, pay a wage level acceptable to all, then keep or sell on for an increased price.

How good a full back do you think you'd get for £4.5m including wages who would be happy to come here as second choice? 

 

Edited 14 July, 2021 by Turkish

[SW5 SAINT]

27 minutes ago, whiteleySaint30 said:

So if this is the case why have we spent a month or so chasing him - these are surely the basics you establish at the outset negotiations- Shambles. Same old PR bull#hit to get people to renew and then we will get the usual 'we tried our very best in a tough market'

Maybe we’ve being trying to persuade them to lower their demands, and they won’t budge. Walk away. As has already been discussed it’s beneficial to them too, from the developmental aspect…..

[Dusic]

Given Ralph's comments at the end of the season I did think we would have done a bit more by now.

Essentially we have swapped one LB for another.

Re Williams - we have been speaking to Utd about him for at least a year so would hope we knew what it would take to get him and whether it would be worth it or not.

As ever, its all driven by outgoings. By letting Bertrand leave for free and spending 12m on his replacement we probably don't have much to spend until Vestergaard and Ings go, and both of those situations will probably rumble on.

Hope to be suprised, but I am not expecting much this summer, and imagine once we have lost the players who will leave our squad will likely be weaker in terms of quality than it was last year.

[Rebel]

I fully expect Vestergaard and Ings to go this summer - probably at the very end of the transfer window.

Counting Bednarek, Stephens and Salisu we have 4 centre backs but if we are going to play 3 at the back we probably need 5 - so we probably need to bring in another centreback before we even replace Vestergaard.  Some would argue you need 5 anyway to give you enough cover.  

Whether Ings goes or not we need another striker - and if he goes we will need to replace him as well and for probably pretty much the same fee as we sold him for. 

We also need cover for Romeu in the 6 role and cover at left and right back.  I think the appeal of Williams is he covers both these fullback  roles in one go.

I expect we need to shift some more players off the wage bill and raise some more funds before we can sign anyone else this summer.  Maybe we will see some more incomings once Lemina and co have been shifted.  

[ErwinK1961]

1 hour ago, whiteleySaint30 said:

So if this is the case why have we spent a month or so chasing him - these are surely the basics you establish at the outset negotiations- Shambles. Same old PR bull#hit to get people to renew and then we will get the usual 'we tried our very best in a tough market'

Maybe they were established at the outset and we're trying to negotiate? Or perhaps Utd have chucked this in at the last minute? Who knows. I'm not sure walking away from a deal that doesn't seem financially sound is a shambles. 

Also no offence, but if anyone was riding the PR train of Brandon Williams on loan as a deal breaker to renew their season ticket (or any of our other summer transfer links), then I would suggest supporting Saints isn't for them. 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

2 hours ago, whiteleySaint30 said:

So if this is the case why have we spent a month or so chasing him - these are surely the basics you establish at the outset negotiations- Shambles. Same old PR bull#hit to get people to renew and then we will get the usual 'we tried our very best in a tough market'

If we only ever went on clubs' opening asking prices then we'd either never buy any players or we'd pay a lot more money than we needed to 

Edited 14 July, 2021 by Ex Lion Tamer

[Dusic]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

How good a full back do you think you'd get for £4.5m including wages who would be happy to come here as second choice? 

 

I understand this, but if we are going to be different to pretty much every other PL team in history and go with just 3 full backs rather than 4 then surely, knowing this has been a need for approx 2 years, we could use our scouting to find a player for a reasonable fee (less than £10m) who can do that job for us?

For example, Coufal cost West Ham about £5m, Brighton bought Lamptey for about £2m and Veltman for 800k.

Its not like we are searching for a plauer who is 5th choice, whoever we sign will likely get a decent amount of minutes and quite conceivably could end up starting the majority of games were either of ours to pick up a mid severity injury.

If we end up paying a lot for Williams and have him for just one season that seems a bit shortsighted to me unless they are confident they could sign him permanently for a reasonable fee following the loan.

[LaptopSaint]

I don’t think it’s just about providing injury cover. One of our problems last season was that our full backs had to cover so much ground that performance started to dip after an hour and the whole team suffered because our style of play relies so much on the FBs. 

So, if you have a third quality full back you can rotate and regularly replace one or the other after 60mins, with people like Stephens and Ramsay providing extra injury cover. 
 

If we spend 6.5 mill over a season on a third quality full back and end up three or four places higher as a result, the loan pays for itself and everybody wins. 
 

[ally_uk]

Sell Ings Bring back Granziano job done