LGBT+ Discussion

[revolution saint]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It only makes a difference when those same people demand to be treated as a woman in all circumstances (sports, prisons, women's shelters, changing rooms etc etc.)

Those would come down as the cases where we need to refer to their biological sex (depending on your point of view).  I think it's inevitable that whatever decisions are made in those grey areas it'll be offensive to one group and something phobic to another - that's just a fact of life now.  As long as decisions are made and justified then people will just have to deal with it.

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Amazes me when you all get het up about such a minute issue but issues such as our countries rivers and seas being poisoned by Tories is a meh moment. Priorities all wrong.

Maybe start a thread rather than trying to get discussed on an unrelated topic thread?

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Eh? This is a complex but narrow issue. We're talking about people who are born as a gender but identify as something different. I don't see that as an illness.

What if your conciousness is telling you that you should identify as a cow or a pig or a giraffe, still not an illness?

Those thousands of people who have previously been admitted to hospital for believing they are Hitler or Napoleon or Joan of Arc and undergone treatment for their mental illnesses should never have been diagnosed with an illness under your rules.

[Weston Super Saint]

11 minutes ago, whelk said:

Maybe start a thread rather than trying to get discussed on an unrelated topic thread?

He's already posted the same thing about six times on the Brexit thread and everyone has ignored him, so he's going to spam every thread with his crusade.  We'll probably have some twitter posts about it soon.

[aintforever]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Would you say the 40% attempted suicide rate (supposing those surveys are accurate) is down to some sort of mental health issue or would you say purely/largely down to bullying?

Surely if it is a mainly a mental health issue that is even more reason not to bully or take the piss banging on about cervixes etc?

 

 

 

 

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Surely if it is a mainly a mental health issue that is even more reason not to bully or take the piss banging on about cervixes etc?

 

 

 

 

Who are all these people “banging on about cervixes”?

[aintforever]

On 24/10/2021 at 15:32, Turkish said:

So do you believe men have a cervix then?

See above

[Turkish]

15 minutes ago, aintforever said:

See above

That isn’t bullying or banging on about it, I asked you a simple question, twice, because the first time you didn’t answer it and carried on making the same, extremely lame, point.  Unless of course you’re that much of a wet lettuce that you think asking someone’s opinion on something is bullying 🤣

Edited 26 October, 2021 by Turkish

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Plastic said:

Lesbians are TERFs if they don't like cocks apparently...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

"Genital preferences are discrimination" - so the fact that I want my sexual partner to be female, with all the correct physical attributes, makes me transphobic.

[egg]

40 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

What if your conciousness is telling you that you should identify as a cow or a pig or a giraffe, still not an illness?

Those thousands of people who have previously been admitted to hospital for believing they are Hitler or Napoleon or Joan of Arc and undergone treatment for their mental illnesses should never have been diagnosed with an illness under your rules.

Behave!! 

Not my rules. Post me a link to something formal (WHO or similar) recognizing Transgender as an illness and I'll relent. 

 

[badgerx16]

58 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Amazes me when you all get het up about such a minute issue but issues such as our countries rivers and seas being poisoned by Tories is a meh moment. Priorities all wrong.

I'm not sure you are getting your message across. Have you tried spamming this on the "Ralph Hassenhuttl" thread, or the "Potential takeovers" one. Also, there is the entire Muppet Show available to you.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, revolution saint said:

Those would come down as the cases where we need to refer to their biological sex (depending on your point of view).  I think it's inevitable that whatever decisions are made in those grey areas it'll be offensive to one group and something phobic to another - that's just a fact of life now.  As long as decisions are made and justified then people will just have to deal with it.

OK but these decisions have led to instances of assault and gross unfairness like in sports do you can see why people would still be very keen to have this discussion in order to ensure that women are protected. 

[hypochondriac]

46 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Surely if it is a mainly a mental health issue that is even more reason not to bully or take the piss banging on about cervixes etc?

 

 

 

 

I don't think you should bully trans people. I don't think anyone has suggested that. Not sure what you mean by take the piss though. The Dave Chapelle special for example I found very amusing and I don't believe that was taking the piss in the way you mean. 

[hypochondriac]

20 minutes ago, egg said:

Behave!! 

Not my rules. Post me a link to something formal (WHO or similar) recognizing Transgender as an illness and I'll relent. 

 

As you're probably aware, the WHO had to remove gender dysphoria as a mental illness in 2017 under political pressure from trans activists who didn't want it categorised in such a way. Similarly, the dsm 5 was changed under a similar climate of political pressure where gender dysphoria was introduced and it became about aligning the body with the identity rather than anything to do with a psychological disorder. It's one of those things though that everyone knows to be true and yet refuse to speak the truth for fear of being labelled. 

Edited 26 October, 2021 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

On 25/10/2021 at 14:15, Lord Duckhunter said:

Perhaps you should of been more of a friend & spoken to her about her depression and problems. Had you spent less time moralising on football forums and more time looking after the well-being of your friends you may have known what she was going through. 

So unlike you to make snotty remarks about something you know absolutely nothing about🙄. If you had bothered to read what I said earlier rather than rush on and make a dig you would have seen that she/he was very shut down when we met. We shared many group therapy sessions and she didn’t open up with the help of trained therapists so why do you think she/he would confide in me? Those of us that knew them were all surprised when we found out that they had changed sex. I don’t even think that the therapists knew that was what was making them so unhappy. This was 17 years ago so perhaps harder to talk about then ? You may not give a “shiney shit” about what some people are going through and seem quite happy to go through life pretending that we are still in the 60’s and 70’s where “birds” and “chicks” are defined by how many pints you would have to drink before you deigned to have sex with them, but the world has moved on mate. We are still at the tip of the iceberg when it comes to dealing with mental health and emotional health issues. Point scoring or making cheap digs does not help.

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

So unlike you to make snotty remarks about something you know absolutely nothing about🙄. If you had bothered to read what I said earlier rather than rush on and make a dig you would have seen that she/he was very shut down when we met. We shared many group therapy sessions and she didn’t open up with the help of trained therapists so why do you think she/he would confide in me? Those of us that knew them were all surprised when we found out that they had changed sex. I don’t even think that the therapists knew that was what was making them so unhappy. This was 17 years ago so perhaps harder to talk about then ? You may not give a “shiney shit” about what some people are going through and seem quite happy to go through life pretending that we are still in the 60’s and 70’s where “birds” and “chicks” are defined by how many pints you would have to drink before you deigned to have sex with them, but the world has moved on mate. We are still at the tip of the iceberg when it comes to dealing with mental health and emotional health issues. Point scoring or making cheap digs does not help.

I expect if you can't even use the correct pronoun for your friend then I can see why they would be having mental health difficulties. 

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

That isn’t bullying or banging on about it, I asked you a simple question, twice, because the first time you didn’t answer it and carried on making the same, extremely lame, point.  Unless of course you’re that much of a wet lettuce that you think asking someone’s opinion on something is bullying 🤣

I thought you would have taken the hint when I didn't answer your dumb question first time.

I made a valid point about trans people and suicide and you replied twice asking me if men had a cervix -  I would class that as banging on, or you just have some weird obsession with the body part.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

You may not give a “shiney shit” about what some people are going through and seem quite happy to go through life pretending that we are still in the 60’s and 70’s where “birds” and “chicks” are defined by how many pints you would have to drink before you deigned to have sex with them, but the world has moved on mate. We are still at the tip of the iceberg when it comes to dealing with mental health and emotional health issues. Point scoring or making cheap digs does not help.

Classic SOG. I said I don’t give a shiny shite what sex people want to be, not “what they’re going through”. So unlike you to twist someone’s words 😩

If some bloke wants to be called a bird, I’ll call them a bird. I’ll treat them like any other one. If they’re an ugly 15 Pinter with a moustache, a cock and a hairy arse, I’ll still call them Janice, Rebecca, or what ever chick name they want to use. It’s no big deal. It’s people like you who make it one. 

[whelk]

36 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I expect if you can't even use the correct pronoun for your friend then I can see why they would be having mental health difficulties. 

Woudl be bloody helpful if everyone put their pronouns in their email signature 

[Turkish]

13 minutes ago, whelk said:

What were you in there for Soggy?

Addiction to virtue signalling 

[Turkish]

51 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I thought you would have taken the hint when I didn't answer your dumb question first time.

I made a valid point about trans people and suicide and you replied twice asking me if men had a cervix -  I would class that as banging on, or you just have some weird obsession with the body part.

Considering you rarely give an opinion on anything then I shouldn’t br surprised as you couldn’t post a link, tell everyone else how thick they are or do a silly laughing face to think you’ve made your point

[revolution saint]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

OK but these decisions have led to instances of assault and gross unfairness like in sports do you can see why people would still be very keen to have this discussion in order to ensure that women are protected. 

TBH I'm not particularly disagreeing with you but perfectly happy to start doing so.

[hypochondriac]

19 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

TBH I'm not particularly disagreeing with you but perfectly happy to start doing so.

Fair enough. Apologies I think I read your post wrongly. 

[Turkish]

44 minutes ago, whelk said:

Woudl be bloody helpful if everyone put their pronouns in their email signature 

There has actually been a thread on this  

 

 

[Lighthouse]

4 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

As you said before bullying doesn’t help. It clearly tips some people over the edge and even if it doesn’t cause suicide it makes many people’s lives a misery. That is why it should not be acceptable. As for what we are, we are far more than a bunch of organs and body parts. Our character and personality is something else entirely. Our body is not who we are, it is a vehicle that we travel through life in. Some people clearly feel unhappy and unnatural in the sex they are born into. We can argue all day about whether someone born with female body parts is a female or not, but if their consciousness is telling them otherwise, what difference does it make if they have female body parts? We are all more than the bits of flesh and bone which make up our physical appearances.

I don’t think the first part needs any explanation, nobody of any compassion or sense would argue bullying is a good thing. The BIB though is complete conjecture; the human brain is a phenomenally complex organ, one which we have only a basic understanding of, so to say that we as entities must be something more than brain functions, when we don’t fully understand what they are, is bogus.

 

The difference it makes is when you start trying to impose your belief on other people. If it’s to someone else’s detriment that they don’t believe in something, it creates an issue. If you want to dress and present yourselves in a way which represents a particularly style of gender, that’s no problem to anyone else. If a 60 year old Jimmy Saville-a-like says he identifies as a woman and should therefore be allowed in the ladies changing rooms, naked, next to your 12 year old daughter and her friends then you have a problem to address. In that example, you’ve got three basic choices;

- Agree that she is a real woman and let her carry on, which you then have to explain to the parents of those 12 year olds.

- Tell her trans women are not real women and can’t use the women’s changing room, which is obviously going to cause offence.

- Tell him/her, "ah but no, you’re clearly not a REAL trans person, you’re just abusing the system to watch 12 year old girls getting changed," which is clearly an enormous minefield of some third party deciding which trans people are real, based on little other than anecdotal evidence of them saying how they feel.

 

Saying, "what difference does it make if they’ve got female body parts," does nothing to address this issue. This isn’t an argument where you can take a ‘live and let live’ attitude like abortion or gay marriage. It requires somebody to be told something they don’t want to hear, whatever your view on the subject. In short, there is no view you can hold on this debate which won’t offend someone.

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I don’t think the first part needs any explanation, nobody of any compassion or sense would argue bullying is a good thing. The BIB though is complete conjecture; the human brain is a phenomenally complex organ, one which we have only a basic understanding of, so to say that we as entities must be something more than brain functions, when we don’t fully understand what they are, is bogus.

 

The difference it makes is when you start trying to impose your belief on other people. If it’s to someone else’s detriment that they don’t believe in something, it creates an issue. If you want to dress and present yourselves in a way which represents a particularly style of gender, that’s no problem to anyone else. If a 60 year old Jimmy Saville-a-like says he identifies as a woman and should therefore be allowed in the ladies changing rooms, naked, next to your 12 year old daughter and her friends then you have a problem to address. In that example, you’ve got three basic choices;

- Agree that she is a real woman and let her carry on, which you then have to explain to the parents of those 12 year olds.

- Tell her trans women are not real women and can’t use the women’s changing room, which is obviously going to cause offence.

- Tell him/her, "ah but no, you’re clearly not a REAL trans person, you’re just abusing the system to watch 12 year old girls getting changed," which is clearly an enormous minefield of some third party deciding which trans people are real, based on little other than anecdotal evidence of them saying how they feel.

 

Saying, "what difference does it make if they’ve got female body parts," does nothing to address this issue. This isn’t an argument where you can take a ‘live and let live’ attitude like abortion or gay marriage. It requires somebody to be told something they don’t want to hear, whatever your view on the subject. In short, there is no view you can hold on this debate which won’t offend someone.

Great answer. Sums up my view really well. 

[egg]

35 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I don’t think the first part needs any explanation, nobody of any compassion or sense would argue bullying is a good thing. The BIB though is complete conjecture; the human brain is a phenomenally complex organ, one which we have only a basic understanding of, so to say that we as entities must be something more than brain functions, when we don’t fully understand what they are, is bogus.

 

The difference it makes is when you start trying to impose your belief on other people. If it’s to someone else’s detriment that they don’t believe in something, it creates an issue. If you want to dress and present yourselves in a way which represents a particularly style of gender, that’s no problem to anyone else. If a 60 year old Jimmy Saville-a-like says he identifies as a woman and should therefore be allowed in the ladies changing rooms, naked, next to your 12 year old daughter and her friends then you have a problem to address. In that example, you’ve got three basic choices;

- Agree that she is a real woman and let her carry on, which you then have to explain to the parents of those 12 year olds.

- Tell her trans women are not real women and can’t use the women’s changing room, which is obviously going to cause offence.

- Tell him/her, "ah but no, you’re clearly not a REAL trans person, you’re just abusing the system to watch 12 year old girls getting changed," which is clearly an enormous minefield of some third party deciding which trans people are real, based on little other than anecdotal evidence of them saying how they feel.

 

Saying, "what difference does it make if they’ve got female body parts," does nothing to address this issue. This isn’t an argument where you can take a ‘live and let live’ attitude like abortion or gay marriage. It requires somebody to be told something they don’t want to hear, whatever your view on the subject. In short, there is no view you can hold on this debate which won’t offend someone.

Interesting take on it. What you've done is shifted from the "need" to elect your gender in some cases to the practical implementation of doing so. There's no doubt that the practical and safe implementation is a huge issue, but does that mean that the trans process must cease? Bloody thorny issue, and as you say, there's no view you can hold on this debate which won’t offend someone.

[badgerx16]

Perhaps public toilets and changing facilities should be graded, with 4 or 5 options rather than the traditonal 'male' and 'female'. People who feel the need to transition between genders could then select the one appropriate to how far they have, up to then, progressed.

[egg]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

Perhaps public toilets and changing facilities should be graded, with 4 or 5 options rather than the traditonal 'male' and 'female'. People who feel the need to transition between genders could then select the one appropriate to how far they have, up to then, progressed.

Ha!! The Stage Door on Southampton has had a toilet with a sign that's half male and half female for ages. 

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Ha!! The Stage Door on Southampton has had a toilet with a sign that's half male and half female for ages. 

Leeds O2 academy has a massive mixed toilet. It’s very strange being in there for a slash at a gig and loads of women being in there as well

[revolution saint]

21 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Perhaps public toilets and changing facilities should be graded, with 4 or 5 options rather than the traditonal 'male' and 'female'. People who feel the need to transition between genders could then select the one appropriate to how far they have, up to then, progressed.

Pretty sure I remember reading that prior to the Victorians most workplace toilets were unisex (or gender neutral in todays language).  Apparently they started to introduce single sex toilets in a bid to encourage women into the workhouses or something similar.  Course back then there were far less women in the workforce so less of a problem.  One of the sites I work at has three toilets - male, female and gender neutral.  Doesn't cause any problems although no one uses the gender neutral one........ 

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, egg said:

Interesting take on it. What you've done is shifted from the "need" to elect your gender 

Is it a need / necessity or is it a want / desire?

[Manuel]

1 hour ago, revolution saint said:

Pretty sure I remember reading that prior to the Victorians most workplace toilets were unisex (or gender neutral in todays language).  Apparently they started to introduce single sex toilets in a bid to encourage women into the workhouses or something similar.  Course back then there were far less women in the workforce so less of a problem.  One of the sites I work at has three toilets - male, female and gender neutral.  Doesn't cause any problems although no one uses the gender neutral one........ 

If I worked in your place I'd definitely head for the gender neutral one.  It's bound to smell better and is less likely to have run out of loo roll.  

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, Manuel said:

If I worked in your place I'd definitely head for the gender neutral one.  It's bound to smell better and is less likely to have run out of loo roll.  

That's the one that flushes directly into the river  

[egg]

24 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Is it a need / necessity or is it a want / desire?

I suspect I'm no more qualified than you to answer, but I'd guess that for those feeling trapped in the wrong body, the change must surely be a need. 

[Manuel]

My mate's boy thought he was transgender at about 13 or 14.  Few years later he worked out he wasn't, but was gay.  Similarly I saw a Dykes on Bikes parade once and most of those ladies looked as though they wanted to be men, rather than lesbian women.  Many blurry lines psychologically I imagine. 

[Turkish]

39 minutes ago, egg said:

I suspect I'm no more qualified than you to answer, but I'd guess that for those feeling trapped in the wrong body, the change must surely be a need. 

Genuinely how many do you think there are? I would suggest there are maybe are a tiny tiny percentage of genuine cases due to chemical imbalance in DNA as someone else said but for many people it’s down to something else and quite a few think they are and change their mind or go through with it and regret it. But it’s given so much coverage relative to it’s need. I mentioned before that  fell out with a primary school teacher friend when I dared to say kids the age she teaches cannot possibly be in apostion to decide if they were born In the wrong body at the age of frigging 5-10 FFS it’s insane that it’s even considered a possibility. She was very offended by my uneducated views 🙄

Edited 26 October, 2021 by Turkish

[egg]

Just now, Turkish said:

Genuinely how many do you think there are? I would suggest there are maybe are a tiny tiny percentage of genuine cases due to chemical imbalance in DNA as someone else said but for many people it’s down to something else and quite a few think they are and change their mind or go through with it and regret it.

Absolutely no idea mate - neither of us know, but I'm not sure the number matters. I'm just surprised that there's a number of people on here that feel qualified to opine thy its a state of mind, or as per your post, a phase. 

I've signed the statutory declarations for people going through the process, and it's bloody involved and with medical assessments before it be embarked upon, and after. This ain't a process for drag queens who want a chop and tuck. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

I suspect I'm no more qualified than you to answer, but I'd guess that for those feeling trapped in the wrong body, the change must surely be a need. 

Or it feels like a need initially. Kind of like how Kiera Bell felt it was a need but then changed her mind after the damage had already been done. 

[egg]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Or it feels like a need initially. Kind of like how Kiera Bell felt it was a need but then changed her mind after the damage had already been done. 

Time and a place mate! We're in a pen shoot out! 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, egg said:

Time and a place mate! We're in a pen shoot out! 

I'm multitasking

[egg]

43 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm multitasking

Impressive, especially for someone without a cervix. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, egg said:

Impressive, especially for someone without a cervix. 

You shouldn't make assumptions. 

[Turkish]

A gay footballer has come out in Australia. He is apparently the first playing top flight football in the world to do so

[badgerx16]

Whilst on the subject of 'transitioning', I have great respect for Pippa York, ( formerly Robert Millar - professional cyclist ). She doesn't make a fuss, and the people she works with in the media accept her without question. She quite happily refers back to her cycling days in the big races around the continent, and nobody bats an eyelid.

Edited 27 October, 2021 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Whilst on the subject of 'transitioning', I have great respect for Pippa York, ( formerly Robert Millar - professional cyclist ). She doesn't make a fuss, and the people she works with in the media accept her without question. She quite happily refers back to her cycling days in the big races around the continent, and nobody bats an eyelid.

I think it is the case that the vast majority of trans people are exactly like that and just want to live their lives in a way that makes them happy. It's a real shame that the small handful of activists and lunatics ruin it for everyone. 

[badgerx16]

The US Navy seem to have acknowledged their 'heritage' by launching the USNS Harvey Milk.

[Turkish]

fantastic news 

Marks & Spencer introduces staff pronouns on name badges (msn.com)

 

[rallyboy]

That's excellent news and will certainly improve my shopping experience.

Those endless hours spent shuffling around faceless shopping centres dragging bags of shiny shit between coffee shops and blocking everyone's path will now be less confusing from a sexual identification point of view.

[Manuel]

I will just bellow "YOU BOY!" or "YOU GIRL!" whenever I need assistance like I usually do.  I don't have time to get my reading glasses out.