LGBT+ Discussion

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Except it is an actual issue.

 

From the centre of suicide prevention:

 

• Institutional prejudice manifesting as laws and policies which create inequalities and/or fail to provide protection from discrimination

That’s why piss-taking about cervixes by dick heads intent on some tragic culture war is not really doing any good to anyone.

What laws do we have that create inequalities?

[Turkish]

30 minutes ago, Chapel End said:

Lots of us wish everyone had you on ignore tbf.

It's a pointless function because of the quote option, good for you though as an attention seeker, even when on holiday 🤣

I love it how many people are obsessing about what I’m doing on holiday.  I love giving you obsessed wierdos little snippets of information. 🤣

[Turkish]

15 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Except it is an actual issue.

 

From the centre of suicide prevention:

 

Why are trans people at risk?

There are a few factors that put transgender people at risk of suicide, factors that can put strain on one’s mental health and potentially lead to thoughts of suicide:

• Institutional prejudice manifesting as laws and policies which create inequalities and/or fail to provide protection from discrimination
• Experience of discrimination (transphobia) in the form of physical or verbal harassment, physical or sexual assault
• Lack of support from parents and other family members
• Stress related to fear of transitioning, including the potential backlash and life disruption, as well as considering the risks and sometimes lengthy time period involved
• Gender dysphoria, or distress related to a conflict between one’s physical or assigned gender and the gender with which they identify

That’s why piss-taking about cervixes by dick heads intent on some tragic culture war is not really doing any good to anyone.

So do you believe men have a cervix then?

[egg]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Except it is an actual issue.

 

From the centre of suicide prevention:

 

Why are trans people at risk?

There are a few factors that put transgender people at risk of suicide, factors that can put strain on one’s mental health and potentially lead to thoughts of suicide:

• Institutional prejudice manifesting as laws and policies which create inequalities and/or fail to provide protection from discrimination
• Experience of discrimination (transphobia) in the form of physical or verbal harassment, physical or sexual assault
• Lack of support from parents and other family members
• Stress related to fear of transitioning, including the potential backlash and life disruption, as well as considering the risks and sometimes lengthy time period involved
• Gender dysphoria, or distress related to a conflict between one’s physical or assigned gender and the gender with which they identify

That’s why piss-taking about cervixes by dick heads intent on some tragic culture war is not really doing any good to anyone.

Please feel free to explain how SOG's tale reduces that risk, but don't bring me into the cervix stuff mate. 

[hypochondriac]

What I don't understand about gender self ID is that surely even those who support it would agree that a law like that could increase the chances that some sicko could simply self identify as female and then gain access to any number of women only spaces and be legally entitled to do so. 

That doesn't mean that all those with gender dysphoria are like that but it does mean that the system is open to abuse. 

 

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

Except it is an actual issue.

 

From the centre of suicide prevention:

 

Why are trans people at risk?

There are a few factors that put transgender people at risk of suicide, factors that can put strain on one’s mental health and potentially lead to thoughts of suicide:

• Institutional prejudice manifesting as laws and policies which create inequalities and/or fail to provide protection from discrimination
• Experience of discrimination (transphobia) in the form of physical or verbal harassment, physical or sexual assault
• Lack of support from parents and other family members
• Stress related to fear of transitioning, including the potential backlash and life disruption, as well as considering the risks and sometimes lengthy time period involved
• Gender dysphoria, or distress related to a conflict between one’s physical or assigned gender and the gender with which they identify

That’s why piss-taking about cervixes by dick heads intent on some tragic culture war is not really doing any good to anyone.

This is a complex subject and it isn't as simple as pointing to suicide statistics and telling people to be kind. Firstly gender dysphoria is a mental health condition like any other and anyone with it deserves support and treatment in order to reduce the distress they would probably feel. There isn't some assigned gender though, there's simply male and female and it's obvious which one of those you are based on your genitalia when you are born bar a tiny minority who have a physical disorder. 

I believe that anyone is free to identify and to present in any manner that they choose and would support them to do so if it makes them happier, providing that they aren't breaking any laws or encroaching on the freedoms or protections afforded to others. I have however read though the statements from a number of post transitioners expressing regret about what they have done to themselves so I would be erring on the side of caution when it comes to irreversible surgeries or drugs (particularly puberty blockers. The evidence that came out from the Tavistock clinic recently for example was absolutely shocking and should really give anyone pause for supporting places of this kind. 

Just like we wouldn't affirm an anorexic who looks in the mirror and sees a fat person, I think there's a real danger that in the rush to be inclusive, our society is pushing through some things that will be looked back on with horror in future decades. One example is that the government is now advising the police to report the sex of a criminal rather than their gender since sexual assaults committed by supposed women have seen spikes in crime stats because police forces were recording all crimes committed by self identified women even if these people were biologically males.

Mutilation in the form of surgeries and big law changes around self ID and women's spaces are the kind of things that we should never rush through without proper thought and serious consideration and the increasing likelihood of some transgender individual killing themselves should not change that- as tragic as that would be. 

Edited 24 October, 2021 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

23 hours ago, egg said:

The point is that the point doesn't need to be made. We probably all know someone trans, and understand how the world and opinion has progressed, but you're the only one making a "look at me" post. 

How is it a look at me post? I was just relating a tale about someone I know. It is about them not me. I get taken to task for talking about Islamophobia and racism when I don’t have mates who are Muslims or black. Now I get taken to task for knowing someone who is trans??? You people really need to make your minds up. Which is it to be? This is about them. It is not remotely about me so why you would say that?

At the time I had no idea that she wanted to change her sex. It was only later after she had been through the procedure and had become a man that I found out that was the cause of their depression. The change in this person’s life has been amazing though and if you are right and everybody knows someone who is trans then I am surprised there are so many stupid and ill informed comments about cervix’s or other body parts.

[Lord Duckhunter]

25 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

 

At the time I had no idea that she wanted to change her sex. It was only later after she had been through the procedure and had become a man that I found out that was the cause of their depression. 

Perhaps you should of been more of a friend & spoken to her about her depression and problems. Had you spent less time moralising on football forums and more time looking after the well-being of your friends you may have known what she was going through. 

[hypochondriac]

30 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

How is it a look at me post? I was just relating a tale about someone I know. It is about them not me. I get taken to task for talking about Islamophobia and racism when I don’t have mates who are Muslims or black. Now I get taken to task for knowing someone who is trans??? You people really need to make your minds up. Which is it to be? This is about them. It is not remotely about me so why you would say that?

At the time I had no idea that she wanted to change her sex. It was only later after she had been through the procedure and had become a man that I found out that was the cause of their depression. The change in this person’s life has been amazing though and if you are right and everybody knows someone who is trans then I am surprised there are so many stupid and ill informed comments about cervix’s or other body parts.

How did she become a man? (also surely it's he?) 

What did you think about Dave chapelle's latest special? 

[sadoldgit]

On 24/10/2021 at 14:22, Chapel End said:

Lots of us wish everyone had you on ignore tbf.

It's a pointless function because of the quote option, good for you though as an attention seeker, even when on holiday 🤣

Agreed. It’s a shame it doesn’t work on quotes too.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

How is it a look at me post? I was just relating a tale about someone I know. It is about them not me. I get taken to task for talking about Islamophobia and racism when I don’t have mates who are Muslims or black. Now I get taken to task for knowing someone who is trans??? You people really need to make your minds up. Which is it to be? This is about them. It is not remotely about me so why you would say that?

At the time I had no idea that she wanted to change her sex. It was only later after she had been through the procedure and had become a man that I found out that was the cause of their depression. The change in this person’s life has been amazing though and if you are right and everybody knows someone who is trans then I am surprised there are so many stupid and ill informed comments about cervix’s or other body parts.

Why do you keep referring to him as a she/her? You don’t even seem to know what sex this friend of yours is. 

[Turkish]

14 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Agreed. It’s a shame it doesn’t work on quotes too.

It wouldn’t have made any difference as you were lying about having me on ignore. Caught right out. 

[whelk]

Dave Chappelle using his white privilege

 

 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Perhaps you should of been more of a friend & spoken to her about her depression and problems. Had you spent less time moralising on football forums and more time looking after the well-being of your friends you may have known what she was going through. 

I imagine that was the reason why Soggy was in the Priory...

[Lighthouse]

Just as a side note on suicide, it’s a much more complex issue than it appears on the surface and even what the individuals involved may say. Saying we need to change society because of the appallingly high suicide rate among trans people is too simplistic a take on it.

 

For example if a man kills himself and leaves a note saying, "I’m doing this because of my b*tch ex-wife," it doesn’t then follow that it was her fault and that she drove him to it. If anything it says more about his state of mind and irrational behaviour which had lead up to that point.

 

I don’t think it simply comes down to bullying. Obviously that doesn’t help but there are monstrously violent prisons and even some schools which don’t even come close to the same suicide rate (up to 40% has been reported) as trans people. You can’t just gloss over that issue by simply saying, "oh if people weren’t mean to her, she’d still be alive and happy."

[egg]

4 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

How is it a look at me post? I was just relating a tale about someone I know. It is about them not me. I get taken to task for talking about Islamophobia and racism when I don’t have mates who are Muslims or black. Now I get taken to task for knowing someone who is trans??? You people really need to make your minds up. Which is it to be? This is about them. It is not remotely about me so why you would say that?

At the time I had no idea that she wanted to change her sex. It was only later after she had been through the procedure and had become a man that I found out that was the cause of their depression. The change in this person’s life has been amazing though and if you are right and everybody knows someone who is trans then I am surprised there are so many stupid and ill informed comments about cervix’s or other body parts.

Because you're highlighting that you know someone trans. It's pretty obvious to that someone born on the wrong body will feel happier in their own skin once their gender has been altered, ditto that someone who wants a baby will be ecstatic when falling pregnant, or someone unemployed will feel great when they get a job, etc, etc.

The post was exactly about you. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

Just as a side note on suicide, it’s a much more complex issue than it appears on the surface and even what the individuals involved may say. Saying we need to change society because of the appallingly high suicide rate among trans people is too simplistic a take on it.

 

For example if a man kills himself and leaves a note saying, "I’m doing this because of my b*tch ex-wife," it doesn’t then follow that it was her fault and that she drove him to it. If anything it says more about his state of mind and irrational behaviour which had lead up to that point.

 

I don’t think it simply comes down to bullying. Obviously that doesn’t help but there are monstrously violent prisons and even some schools which don’t even come close to the same suicide rate (up to 40% has been reported) as trans people. You can’t just gloss over that issue by simply saying, "oh if people weren’t mean to her, she’d still be alive and happy."

Indeed. Quite possible that the mental issues that cause dysphoria also make you more susceptible to suicidal ideation. Would be interesting to see some research. 

[aintforever]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

 

I don’t think it simply comes down to bullying. Obviously that doesn’t help

Exactly my point, bullying and piss-taking about cervixes or whatever doesn’t help anyone.

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, egg said:

It's pretty obvious to that someone born on the wrong body

I hear that phrase a lot and cannot accept it as being valid. You aren’t ‘born into’ a body, wrong or otherwise, they aren’t assigned at birth. People are not some gender assigned spirit, floating around in the ether, waiting for their chance to be born into a human body. You don’t HAVE a body, you ARE a body.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Exactly my point, bullying and piss-taking about cervixes or whatever doesn’t help anyone.

I’ll ask you again then. Do you think men have a cervix?

[egg]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

I hear that phrase a lot and cannot accept it as being valid. You aren’t ‘born into’ a body, wrong or otherwise, they aren’t assigned at birth. People are not some gender assigned spirit, floating around in the ether, waiting for their chance to be born into a human body. You don’t HAVE a body, you ARE a body.

Disagree. Speak to someone who's been through it or wants to got through it and you'll understand. People are born into a body, it's what they're given, and some people identify as a gender different to that of body they're born with. 

Edited 25 October, 2021 by egg

[aintforever]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I’ll ask you again then. Do you think men have a cervix?

Some trans men do, why are you bothered by it?

[hypochondriac]

3 hours ago, aintforever said:

Exactly my point, bullying and piss-taking about cervixes or whatever doesn’t help anyone.

I think the point about cervixes is a valid point. If we can't utter basic truths like the fact that everyone with a cervix is a woman then it leads down a dangerous road where sexual assault statistics are obscured by women raping other women with their female penises. 

What was your thoughts on the recent Dave Chapelle comedy special? Should it be banned? 

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

Some trans men do, why are you bothered by it?

But a trans man is still a biological woman which is the whole point. 

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, egg said:

Disagree. Speak to someone who's been through it or wants to got through it and you'll understand. People are born into a body, it's what they're given, and some people identify as a gender different to that of body they're born with. 

Unless you believe in a God, you're not really given a body, it's just who you are rather like if you're ginger, fair skinned, blue eyed etc. Some people may feel more comfortable presenting as the opposite sex and they should be given the same respect as everyone else but every cell in their body doesn't actually change. If you're a biological male then you're still a biological male even if you feel more comfortable living your life looking and acting like a woman. Big respect to those people by the way, it must be very difficult to live your life in that manner and from what I've seen and heard some do express real frustration and a certain level of despair when they realise that they can never truly change to the degree that would satisfy them. I obviously can't know all transgender people but the few that I have spoken to mostly just want to be left alone to get on with living their lives in a quiet and dignified manner. It's the loudest and the most controversial people who tarnish the reputation for all and cause worry and upset to those I have spoken to. 

Edited 25 October, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Lighthouse]

6 hours ago, egg said:

Disagree. Speak to someone who's been through it or wants to got through it and you'll understand. People are born into a body, it's what they're given, and some people identify as a gender different to that of body they're born with. 

I’d empathise but I wouldn’t ‘understand’ as you put it because it’s unequivocally not true. You may feel that you would be happy living as the opposite gender but you aren’t ‘born into a body’. You are that bag of meat you see in the mirror, it was never given to you, you weren’t infused spiritually as an embryo. This is what’s perhaps most alarming about the whole issue, making life changing choices based on falsehoods. If you chose to ‘transition’ you’re not correcting some great admin error in the cosmos.

[egg]

2 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I’d empathise but I wouldn’t ‘understand’ as you put it because it’s unequivocally not true. You may feel that you would be happy living as the opposite gender but you aren’t ‘born into a body’. You are that bag of meat you see in the mirror, it was never given to you, you weren’t infused spiritually as an embryo. This is what’s perhaps most alarming about the whole issue, making life changing choices based on falsehoods. If you chose to ‘transition’ you’re not correcting some great admin error in the cosmos.

You're over thinking this. We are born into the world in a body. I was born a male and identify as a male so all is good. But if I identified as a woman, and hated the idea of being a man, I've plainly been born into the wrong body. There's nothing spiritual or complicated about it. 

[egg]

7 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Unless you believe in a God, you're not really given a body, it's just who you are rather like if you're ginger, fair skinned, blue eyed etc. Some people may feel more comfortable presenting as the opposite sex and they should be given the same respect as everyone else but every cell in their body doesn't actually change. If you're a biological male then you're still a biological male even if you feel more comfortable living your life looking and acting like a woman. Big respect to those people by the way, it must be very difficult to live your life in that manner and from what I've seen and heard some do express real frustration and a certain level of despair when they realise that they can never truly change to the degree that would satisfy them. I obviously can't know all transgender people but the few that I have spoken to mostly just want to be left alone to get on with living their lives in a quiet and dignified manner. It's the loudest and the most controversial people who tarnish the reputation for all and cause worry and upset to those I have spoken to. 

I can only echo what I said to Lighthouse. We don't choose who or what we are born as/with. Our chromosomes, body parts, hair, eyes, whatever, are what we are born with. We don't choose it, so I see it that we're given it. Others can take a more complicated approach or use different terminology, but fundamentally I'd imagine that we all agree that none of us choose to be the person that we are born as. 

[hypochondriac]

31 minutes ago, egg said:

You're over thinking this. We are born into the world in a body. I was born a male and identify as a male so all is good. But if I identified as a woman, and hated the idea of being a man, I've plainly been born into the wrong body. There's nothing spiritual or complicated about it. 

What about those who believe they were "born into the wrong body" but over time regret their transition and decide to detransition because they were actually just a lesbian all along and thought that trying to change their gender was the answer? 

You aren't born into the wrong body. You may have psychological issues that make you feel more content to present yourself as male or female but your body was never wrong. Part of the problem is young people being told that if they hate themselves or feel awkward in their own skin that transitioning is the answer. We don't tell someone suffering from anorexia that they were born in the wrong body, we give them the help they obviously require to accept themselves as they are. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

What about those who believe they were "born into the wrong body" but over time regret their transition and decide to detransition because they were actually just a lesbian all along and thought that trying to change their gender was the answer? 

You aren't born into the wrong body. You may have psychological issues that make you feel more content to present yourself as male or female but your body was never wrong. Part of the problem is young people being told that if they hate themselves or feel awkward in their own skin that transitioning is the answer. We don't tell someone suffering from anorexia that they were born in the wrong body, we give them the help they obviously require to accept themselves as they are. 

So you're suggesting a trans person still living in their body of birth is unwell. It's an interesting theory, but I think a flawed one...the obvious extension of it is that gay people could be given "the help they obviously require to accept themselves as they are". Sure, that may be correct for eating disorders, but not the case for sexuality or gender. 

[hypochondriac]

34 minutes ago, egg said:

So you're suggesting a trans person still living in their body of birth is unwell. It's an interesting theory, but I think a flawed one...the obvious extension of it is that gay people could be given "the help they obviously require to accept themselves as they are". Sure, that may be correct for eating disorders, but not the case for sexuality or gender. 

Not necessarily unwell but certainly they have a medical need that needs addressing. Why is believing you are a woman when you are biologically male and as a consequence mutilating your body by inverting your penis to create a wound that never heals and that you have to stick a dildo in regularly to prevent the wound from closing different from someone believing they are fat and as a consequence starving themselves? How is being female and believing you are a man to the degree that you bind your breasts and ultimately slice them off not comparable to something like phantom limb syndrome where you believe that your arm doesn't belong to you so you try to chop it off in order to feel happier? Of course experiencing gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated with respect and sensitivity but it does mean that it should be recognised for the serious issue that it is. 

Being gay isn't the same thing since you're harming no one by being gay and it doesn't require mutilating surgery or harmful drugs in some instances. 

 

Edited 26 October, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Turkish]

34 minutes ago, egg said:

So you're suggesting a trans person still living in their body of birth is unwell. It's an interesting theory, but I think a flawed one...the obvious extension of it is that gay people could be given "the help they obviously require to accept themselves as they are". Sure, that may be correct for eating disorders, but not the case for sexuality or gender. 

It’s certainly no less flawed than claiming that someone was given the wrong body. There was that case a few years ago where in one school 17 kids wanted to transition, it turned out most of them were autistic and were being influenced by older children that they felt that way because they were born into the wrong body.

It’s not fashionable to say it but there could be a dozens of other reasons why people feel like that ranging from the company they keep, puberty, emotional difficulties through to other mental conditions. it might be a mental rather than physical condition and certainly a lot more plausible than all these other otherwise completely healthy people who don’t feel happy within themselves because they were born the wrong gender. 

Edited 26 October, 2021 by Turkish

[Lighthouse]

31 minutes ago, egg said:

So you're suggesting a trans person still living in their body of birth is unwell. It's an interesting theory, but I think a flawed one...the obvious extension of it is that gay people could be given "the help they obviously require to accept themselves as they are". Sure, that may be correct for eating disorders, but not the case for sexuality or gender. 

They aren’t comparable. Being gay isn’t being disillusioned in any way with your own body. You can be gay and be perfectly physically healthy and content with yourself and your own body. You don’t require surgery in order to be able to accept what you are.

I reiterate that we are not born into a body. Consciousness is just one of the functions of one of our organs, I.e. the brain. I’m not overthinking it, that is what we quite literally are. The body is not a vehicle, which you enter into a brief journey with in your voyager through life. It is you. I guess we will have to disagree on that but your position requires some degree of cognitive dissonance. If you haven’t already, watch the Dolphin episode of South Park.

[Warriorsaint]

Culture war, culture war, distraction, distraction. Just treat people how they want to be treated. Not hard. End of debate.

How about that raw sewage being dumped all around us eh?

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, egg said:

So you're suggesting a trans person still living in their body of birth is unwell

Would you say the 40% attempted suicide rate (supposing those surveys are accurate) is down to some sort of mental health issue or would you say purely/largely down to bullying?

[hypochondriac]

27 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Culture war, culture war, distraction, distraction. Just treat people how they want to be treated. Not hard. End of debate.

How about that raw sewage being dumped all around us eh?

It's not the end of the debate though by a long way. Not when you have politicians being unable to tell you the definition of a woman, when there are men raping women in female prisons and when the recent tavistock court case brought to light some of the shocking abuses among children. These decisions have real life consequences. 

[badgerx16]

Gender is a function of genetics, assigned at the point of fertilisation. Unfortunately, in a very small number of cases, this turns out to not be a strictly binary outcome due to chemical changes in the DNA.

Edited 26 October, 2021 by badgerx16

[egg]

44 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

They aren’t comparable. Being gay isn’t being disillusioned in any way with your own body. You can be gay and be perfectly physically healthy and content with yourself and your own body. You don’t require surgery in order to be able to accept what you are.

I reiterate that we are not born into a body. Consciousness is just one of the functions of one of our organs, I.e. the brain. I’m not overthinking it, that is what we quite literally are. The body is not a vehicle, which you enter into a brief journey with in your voyager through life. It is you. I guess we will have to disagree on that but your position requires some degree of cognitive dissonance. If you haven’t already, watch the Dolphin episode of South Park.

We'll agree to differ. We do not choose our bodies of birth. We do not choose with what we identify as in terms of gender or anything else. I don't believe someone is unwell if they identify with a gender that is different to that which is different to that on their birth certificate. 

[egg]

16 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Would you say the 40% attempted suicide rate (supposing those surveys are accurate) is down to some sort of mental health issue or would you say purely/largely down to bullying?

No idea mate, although I'd imagine it's hell being born a man but identifying as a woman and wanting to be one. 

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

Would you say the 40% attempted suicide rate (supposing those surveys are accurate) is down to some sort of mental health issue or would you say purely/largely down to bullying?

As you said before bullying doesn’t help. It clearly tips some people over the edge and even if it doesn’t cause suicide it makes many people’s lives a misery. That is why it should not be acceptable. As for what we are, we are far more than a bunch of organs and body parts. Our character and personality is something else entirely. Our body is not who we are, it is a vehicle that we travel through life in. Some people clearly feel unhappy and unnatural in the sex they are born into. We can argue all day about whether someone born with female body parts is a female or not, but if their consciousness is telling them otherwise, what difference does it make if they have female body parts? We are all more than the bits of flesh and bone which make up our physical appearances.

[egg]

9 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

As you said before bullying doesn’t help. It clearly tips some people over the edge and even if it doesn’t cause suicide it makes many people’s lives a misery. That is why it should not be acceptable. As for what we are, we are far more than a bunch of organs and body parts. Our character and personality is something else entirely. Our body is not who we are, it is a vehicle that we travel through life in. Some people clearly feel unhappy and unnatural in the sex they are born into. We can argue all day about whether someone born with female body parts is a female or not, but if their consciousness is telling them otherwise, what difference does it make if they have female body parts? We are all more than the bits of flesh and bone which make up our physical appearances.

Agreed. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

We'll agree to differ. We do not choose our bodies of birth. We do not choose with what we identify as in terms of gender or anything else. I don't believe someone is unwell if they identify with a gender that is different to that which is different to that on their birth certificate. 

But someone is unwell if they identify with a body shape that is different to reality? 

[Turkish]

22 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

As you said before bullying doesn’t help. It clearly tips some people over the edge and even if it doesn’t cause suicide it makes many people’s lives a misery. That is why it should not be acceptable. As for what we are, we are far more than a bunch of organs and body parts. Our character and personality is something else entirely. Our body is not who we are, it is a vehicle that we travel through life in. Some people clearly feel unhappy and unnatural in the sex they are born into. We can argue all day about whether someone born with female body parts is a female or not, but if their consciousness is telling them otherwise, what difference does it make if they have female body parts? We are all more than the bits of flesh and bone which make up our physical appearances.

So do you mean our character and personality are somehow separate to our bodies? Almost like a separate soul that gets put into a body?

[Plastic]

Lesbians are TERFs if they don't like cocks apparently...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

[egg]

23 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

But someone is unwell if they identify with a body shape that is different to reality? 

Eh? This is a complex but narrow issue. We're talking about people who are born as a gender but identify as something different. I don't see that as an illness.

Edited 26 October, 2021 by egg

[revolution saint]

Personally I just wish that people would be clear about the difference between sex and gender but it seems most people wilfully confuse the two when it suits them.  There's quite a few cases (smear tests etc) where we need to refer to (biological) sex and in those cases it shouldn't be deemed to be transphobic to talk about biological male and female.  Yes, it may be separate from what you identify as but it's done for a purpose and not just to antagonise.  In all other cases we can use gender and it really doesn't make any difference what people identify as.

[hypochondriac]

46 minutes ago, egg said:

Eh? This is a complex but narrow issue. We're talking about people who are born as a gender but identify as something different. I don't see that as an illness.

Not sure what you mean by a narrow issue. Someone has a psychological condition where they look in the mirror and see themselves as much bigger than they actually are. Another person has a psychological condition where they feel like an imposter in their own body and they believe they should be the other sex. In what way are they hugely different? 

Illness implies a negative connotation. I'd suggest that they are both psychological conditions that need treatment. 

Edited 26 October, 2021 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

Personally I just wish that people would be clear about the difference between sex and gender but it seems most people wilfully confuse the two when it suits them.  There's quite a few cases (smear tests etc) where we need to refer to (biological) sex and in those cases it shouldn't be deemed to be transphobic to talk about biological male and female.  Yes, it may be separate from what you identify as but it's done for a purpose and not just to antagonise.  In all other cases we can use gender and it really doesn't make any difference what people identify as.

It only makes a difference when those same people demand to be treated as a woman in all circumstances (sports, prisons, women's shelters, changing rooms etc etc.)

[whelk]

I think if I had a fanny I might be tempted to play with myself constantly

[egg]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Not sure what you mean by a narrow issue. Someone has a psychological condition where they look in the mirror and see themselves as much bigger than they actually are. A biological man has a psychological condition where they feel like an imposter in their own body and they believe they should be female. In what way are they hugely different? 

A narrow issue in that it is the discreet issue that I've outlined. You keep conflating it with other unrelated issues. You've suggested that it is a psychological issue that people can get help with, thus implying that they arguably need help. I don't agree with you.