LGBT+ Discussion

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

It's not my position. It's a medical position. I don't need to justify or argue the cause. However, I think there are very clear differences between this dysphoria and others - false equivalence to use on your phrases. 

I'd be interested to hear what you believe the clear differences are. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. You'll get the same answer every time you ask me whether I think it is or isn't. 

That's not the question I asked in that post. If you have gender dysphoria to such an acute degree that you believe it is only relieved by an operation to remove your penis, do you have a mental illness? 

Edited 17 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. The WHO say so. I agree. 

..

Edited 17 November, 2023 by Turkish
cant be arsed

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Honestly mate, your answer of "the WHO says so, i agree" isn't really that much different from the criticism you've given others for what you say is their view of "it's a mental health condition, because i think it is" 

I know it's hard to do on the Internet but @eggis an intelligent chap. I think if he's honest with himself he could admit that there's some holes in logic here. I totally understand the view that says that's the position of the WHO that it changed to five years ago and that's the end of the matter but it does throw up some questions - some of which are posted above that are not easily answered if we are to accept the WHO position. I mean five years ago you could have said "the WHO says its a mental illness so end of discussion." if we accept their position now then clearly they were wrong before that. Things clearly do change so it is conceivable that they will change again in the future. The WHO aren't infallible as proven by the fact that they categorised it as a mental illness very recently. 

[aintforever]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I know it's hard to do on the Internet but @eggis an intelligent chap. I think if he's honest with himself he could admit that there's some holes in logic here. I totally understand the view that says that's the position of the WHO that it changed to five years ago and that's the end of the matter but it does throw up some questions - some of which are posted above that are not easily answered if we are to accept the WHO position. I mean five years ago you could have said "the WHO says its a mental illness so end of discussion." if we accept their position now then clearly they were wrong before that. Things clearly do change so it is conceivable that they will change again in the future. The WHO aren't infallible as proven by the fact that they categorised it as a mental illness very recently. 

Isn't that just called progress? I mean people like you were arguing that being gay was an illness not long ago.

[Turkish]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I know it's hard to do on the Internet but @eggis an intelligent chap. I think if he's honest with himself he could admit that there's some holes in logic here. I totally understand the view that says that's the position of the WHO that it changed to five years ago and that's the end of the matter but it does throw up some questions - some of which are posted above that are not easily answered if we are to accept the WHO position. I mean five years ago you could have said "the WHO says its a mental illness so end of discussion." if we accept their position now then clearly they were wrong before that. Things clearly do change so it is conceivable that they will change again in the future. The WHO aren't infallible as proven by the fact that they categorised it as a mental illness very recently. 

ha, as you've quoted me i'll reply then. Yes Egg is intelligent and one of the best and most reasonable posters on here. 

There are clearly some holes in it and some people have made some valid points as to why. I definitely think that in some cases, not all but some it could be a factor and in other cases people have it because of mental illness, ie think they are depressed, anxious whatever because they believe they are in the wrong body. Maybe due to outside influences. 

As for children who think this way, how can a pre-pubescent child believe they are a different gender? 

Edited 17 November, 2023 by Turkish

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Isn't that just called progress? I mean people like you were arguing that being gay was an illness not long ago.

I've never argued that. Being a man sexually attracted to a man is in no way the same thing as feeling the need to remove your penis to relieve feelings of distress.

You may view it as progress, the point I was making is that saying if the WHO say something that that is infallible and cannot be questioned is quite clearly nonsense as demonstrated by this very issue. It's as valid as someone saying that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness in 2018 and my response being that it can't be discussed because the WHO says it is so that's the end of the matter. Like I said though, even if we accept that it isn't a mental illness, it raises some questions about these other disorders and how they differ from gender dysphoria to the extent that they are considered mental illnesses and gender dysphoria isn't. Egg says there are key differences and I'd genuinely be interested in hearing what they are. 

[egg]

7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

ha, as you've quoted me i'll reply then. Yes Egg is intelligent and one of the best and most reasonable posters on here. 

There are clearly some holes in it and some people have made some valid points as to why. I definitely think that in some cases, not all but some it could be a factor and in other cases people have it because of mental illness, ie think they are depressed, anxious whatever because they believe they are in the wrong body. Maybe due to outside influences. 

As for children who think this way, how can a pre-pubescent child believe they are a different gender? 

I think there's a degree of chicken and egg with some issues. Take alcoholism. I know recovering alcoholics who have presented as depressed (suicidal, etc) and at first blush have been diagnosed as such. However, a spell in the priory has quickly identified the deeper issue being alcoholism, being a condition in its own right and not caused by depression. Transfer that to gender dysphoria. If there is depression as a consequence of gender dysphoria, it's the dysphoria that needs addressing primarily, not the depression.

 

[hypochondriac]

48 minutes ago, Turkish said:

ha, as you've quoted me i'll reply then. Yes Egg is intelligent and one of the best and most reasonable posters on here. 

There are clearly some holes in it and some people have made some valid points as to why. I definitely think that in some cases, not all but some it could be a factor and in other cases people have it because of mental illness, ie think they are depressed, anxious whatever because they are in the wrong body.

I don't think it's particularly controversial to say that if you want to have your fully functioning penis removed and have all the associated medical problems that will inevitably cause then you're mentally unwell. I accept that not everyone with gender dysphoria wants to do that but for the ones who do, I'd say it's tough to argue otherwise. It could be argued that even taking cross sex hormones for non medical reasons is a sign of mental illness given the horrendous side effects that many of them cause (cancer, premature aging, brittle bones, etc.) I'd say you'd almost need a different term for these people as they seem to me to be quite different from some men who just want to wear a dress for their own comfort (or indeed some individuals who are autogynophiles and presenting as a woman is a sexual fetish.) although I suspect there is some overlap between the groups.

I have less of a hard time with those who accept that they will always be biologically male or female but understand that they have a disorder which means that they want to present as the opposite sex to help them to feel less distressed. I have more of an issue with some people who just want to wear a dress and get into women's spaces such as prisons or toilets and I certainly have a problem with the high number of adolescents who claim they are transgender (particularly of concern are the proportionally high numbers who are autistic.) There's been some relevant literature in social contagion and I'd say that's definitely a factor in a significant number of cases. 

Edited 17 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[aintforever]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I've never argued that. Being a man sexually attracted to a man is in no way the same thing as feeling the need to remove your penis to relieve feelings of distress.

You may view it as progress, the point I was making is that saying if the WHO say something that that is infallible and cannot be questioned is quite clearly nonsense as demonstrated by this very issue. It's as valid as someone saying that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness in 2018 and my response being that it can't be discussed because the WHO says it is so that's the end of the matter. Like I said though, even if we accept that it isn't a mental illness, it raises some questions about these other disorders and how they differ from gender dysphoria to the extent that they are considered mental illnesses and gender dysphoria isn't. Egg says there are key differences and I'd genuinely be interested in hearing what they are. 

It's not a stretch of the imagination to believe that some people are born with a condition that makes them want to be a different gender, just like some people are born to be attracted to the same sex?

If it is an illness that can be cured why did the WHO change it's classification?

[egg]

25 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I know it's hard to do on the Internet but @eggis an intelligent chap. I think if he's honest with himself he could admit that there's some holes in logic here. I totally understand the view that says that's the position of the WHO that it changed to five years ago and that's the end of the matter but it does throw up some questions - some of which are posted above that are not easily answered if we are to accept the WHO position. I mean five years ago you could have said "the WHO says its a mental illness so end of discussion." if we accept their position now then clearly they were wrong before that. Things clearly do change so it is conceivable that they will change again in the future. The WHO aren't infallible as proven by the fact that they categorised it as a mental illness very recently. 

I accept that the WHO aren't infallible. This issue is one that I think is most closely comparable to sexuality. It's impossible to put ourselves in the position of someone being born into the world where there's an assumption that they can accept their birth gender and/or their presumed heterosexuality, but just can't. I just cannot see how a person on either scenario can be assumed unwell, but can see how society not accepting them (and probably labelling them unwell) could cause them to become unwell. It's a really tricky subject.

[hypochondriac]

26 minutes ago, egg said:

I accept that the WHO aren't infallible. This issue is one that I think is most closely comparable to sexuality. It's impossible to put ourselves in the position of someone being born into the world where there's an assumption that they can accept their birth gender and/or their presumed heterosexuality, but just can't. I just cannot see how a person on either scenario can be assumed unwell, but can see how society not accepting them (and probably labelling them unwell) could cause them to become unwell. It's a really tricky subject.

Genuinely I'm not trying to catch you out or anything, what do you think the big differences are between those wanting to remove their penis to relieve distress and those wanting to remove some other appendage for the same reasons? Because to me they are exactly the same thing and I don't understand why some people would treat one condition by preventing them from causing themselves harm and would treat the other by performing an operation and turning them into lifelong medical patients. Why would we not treat the man who wants to cut his arm off the same and operate to remove it at his request if it relieves his distress? 

Like you say, there's usually some underlying issues that this person is dealing with that causes them to develop these conditions. That's what I believe for gender dysphoria too which is why the underlying causes of the distress are what should be treated and therapy to allow people to accept themselves and see the value in who they are rather than operating on them.

Edited 17 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

22 minutes ago, aintforever said:

It's not a stretch of the imagination to believe that some people are born with a condition that makes them want to be a different gender, just like some people are born to be attracted to the same sex?

If it is an illness that can be cured why did the WHO change it's classification?

I accept that some people are born believing they are the wrong sex (sex and gender are not the same thing) and that that causes them distress (although there are some studies that show that events in childhood can have significant parts to play in a gender dysphoria diagnosis) just like some are born attracted to someone of the same sex to themselves. I don't agree that the best treatment for that is to do unnecessary medical procedures that involve removing genitals, pumping hormones into their bodies with all manner of horrendous side effects and then to participate in a delusion that this person is actually a woman (assuming it's a biological male) and has actually changed sex. If the same procedures were required by some in order for the to be a homosexual then I'd have the same objections. But they aren't. 

Edited 17 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[egg]

22 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Genuinely I'm not trying to catch you out or anything, what do you think the big differences are between those wanting to remove their penis to relieve distress and those wanting to remove some other appendage for the same reasons? Because to me they are exactly the same thing and I don't understand why some people would treat one condition by preventing them from causing themselves harm and would treat the other by performing an operation and turning them into lifelong medical patients. 

I think you're focusing on the impact of the dysphoria and seeing the extreme behaviour as a reason to regard the dysphoria as a mental illness. You've got to go back to the beginning, not focus on the effect. 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

I think you're focusing on the impact of the dysphoria and seeing the extreme behaviour as a reason to regard the dysphoria as a mental illness. You've got to go back to the beginning, not focus on the effect. 

Ok then. Like you say, there's usually some underlying issues that this person is dealing with that causes them to develop these conditions. I will accept your idea that gender dysphoria is not the mental illness but the symptom of other mental illnesses that the person is suffering from (although I still don't think that we'd have such reluctance to call the other syndromes I outlined mental illnesses.) What we could say instead is that there are underlying mental conditions/illnesses that cause someone to develop gender dysphoria but that is semantics really as they're still mentally unwell.  The underlying causes of the distress are what should be treated and therapy to allow people to accept themselves and see the value in who they are rather than operating on them.

Edited 17 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[Weston Super Saint]

48 minutes ago, Turkish said:

ha, as you've quoted me i'll reply then. Yes Egg is intelligent and one of the best and most reasonable posters on here. 

There are clearly some holes in it and some people have made some valid points as to why. I definitely think that in some cases, not all but some it could be a factor and in other cases people have it because of mental illness, ie think they are depressed, anxious whatever because they believe they are in the wrong body. Maybe due to outside influences. 

As for children who think this way, how can a pre-pubescent child believe they are a different gender? 

I read a study about this (I can't remember where or how I found it as it was a couple of years ago) which was very interesting.  I'm paraphrasing as I can't remember the full article, however, it stated something along the lines that whilst the specific chromosomes are assigned at conception / fetal development that determine 'sex', hormones continue to develop / affect behaviour long after birth during life, so effectively someone born female could conceivably believe they should be male (and vice versa), due to these hormonal changes.

I guess that would influence the debate about whether this should then be considered a medical issue (is illness too strong a word?) and whether hormone therapies should be introduced to redress the balance / the ethical or moral debate around that.

I know I wouldn't want politicians involved in those decisions!!!

 

[badgerx16]

On 17/11/2023 at 10:01, Turkish said:

As for children who think this way, how can a pre-pubescent child believe they are a different gender? 

I know of one school where the reception class were recently given a Dressing Up Day. They were told it was OK for boys to pick dresses if they wanted to, and the staff said that if they were Trans they could choose what they wanted.

They should be allowed the freedom to play however they want without stupid bloody labels being bandied about.

Edited 26 November, 2023 by badgerx16

[east-stand-nic]

These leftist woke LGBT people are just so easy going, tolerant and fair mined are they not.

 

[hypochondriac]

15 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

I know of one school where the reception class were recently given a Dressing Up Day. They were told it was OK for boys to pick dresses if they wanted to, and the staff said that if they were Trans they could choose what they wanted.

They should be allowed the freedom to play however they want without stupid bloody labels being bandied about.

Absolutely. Anyone who made that announcement is wrong and it should be looked into. You can't be 4 and trans that's insane. 

[Turkish]

36 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Absolutely. Anyone who made that announcement is wrong and it should be looked into. You can't be 4 and trans that's insane. 

If that isn’t an example of conditioning by parents or media I don’t know what is. Scary world we live In

[Fan The Flames]

2 hours ago, east-stand-nic said:

These leftist woke LGBT people are just so easy going, tolerant and fair mined are they not.

 

I was expecting something more than a covid Karen, you know nothing about them.

[whelk]

Street preacher should’ve kicked her in the cunt. Give her something to shriek about

[StDunko]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Street preacher should’ve kicked her in the cunt. Give her something to shriek about

Might've been worried about losing a shoe...

[whelk]

….

Edited 27 November, 2023 by whelk
Wrong thread

[whelk]

That poor Rhianna Ghey. All too easy to be flippant and mocking but clear those vile evil bastard kids that killed her/him because they were trans. Despicable scum

[Fan The Flames]

Yes very sad indeed, she was dehumanised, when they were the sub-humans.

[hypochondriac]

Absolutely monstrous figures here. When some people say there isn't a problem, this is an effective counterpoint. The people who do this need to be prosecuted. 

[hypochondriac]

13 hours ago, whelk said:

That poor Rhianna Ghey. All too easy to be flippant and mocking but clear those vile evil bastard kids that killed her/him because they were trans. Despicable scum

I saw some of the details of that earlier. There's some truly terrible people in the world unfortunately and the casual way, they walk about killing ghey is almost beyond comprehension. No one should be targeted like that no matter what they decide to dress or call themselves. 

[Turkish]

[Turkish]

[AlexLaw76]

7 hours ago, Turkish said:

Have you checked your cervix lately?

[pingpong]

8 hours ago, Turkish said:

This is a great example of the importance of inclusive language. It's critical that trans men continue to get checked, and that they don't avoid it because of the way they might feel about it - making it clear that they will be treated respectfully is really important, and can save lives. Thanks for sharing.

[Turkish]

24 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Have you checked your cervix lately?

Have you booked your screening appointment?

[Turkish]

21 minutes ago, pingpong said:

This is a great example of the importance of inclusive language. It's critical that trans men continue to get checked, and that they don't avoid it because of the way they might feel about it - making it clear that they will be treated respectfully is really important, and can save lives. Thanks for sharing.

You’re welcome. We have some way to go but we are getting there. It’s heartening to see the efforts of this forum, I’m going to give myself a massive pat in the back here, for speaking about about this stuff is finally paying dividends 

[andypen]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

You’re welcome. We have some way to go but we are getting there. It’s heartening to see the efforts of this forum, I’m going to give myself a massive pat in the back here, for speaking about about this stuff is finally paying dividends 

I willing to stick my neck out here and predict that, thanks to your efforts, cervical cancer in trans men will one day be eradicated altogether.

Keep up the good work Turkish.

[Turkish]

29 minutes ago, andypen said:

I willing to stick my neck out here and predict that, thanks to your efforts, cervical cancer in trans men will one day be eradicated altogether.

Keep up the good work Turkish.

thanks buddy, between posting on this thread about trans rights and leading the CoT it can be thankless task at times but people like you make me feel like at least some of you appreciate it.

[egg]

28 minutes ago, Turkish said:

thanks buddy, between posting on this thread about trans rights and leading the CoT it can be thankless task at times but people like you make me feel like at least some of you appreciate it.

Your attempts to save all men with a cervix should get you a CBE Del. I'll nominate you. 

[Turkish]

35 minutes ago, egg said:

Your attempts to save all men with a cervix should get you a CBE Del. I'll nominate you. 

thanks mate, im flattered it'll be on my mantle piece just below the framed post print out with 30 laugh reactions.

[Fan The Flames]

On 12/01/2024 at 11:40, Turkish said:

thanks mate, im flattered it'll be on my mantle piece just below the framed post print out with 30 laugh reactions.

Are you still chasing that high?

[Turkish]

20 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Are you still chasing that high?

I’ve not experienced anything like it since popping 3 Mitsubishis at once at The Manor in 1995

Edited January 14 by Turkish

[hypochondriac]

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24066835.trans-woman-samantha-norris-played-penis-front-girls/?ref=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Good to see the Echo informing us all about this fine specimen of a woman and her female penis. 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24066835.trans-woman-samantha-norris-played-penis-front-girls/?ref=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Good to see the Echo informing us all about this fine specimen of a woman and her female penis. 

She should be awarded compensation for people reporting this to the police, poor Samantha has had to endure a torrid time being trapped in the wrong body and now she is able to express herself how dare people put her through further trauma like this. This transphobia needs to stop, so depressing that this lovely lady who has had so much to put up with all her life has to go through this now. It's not 1930 anymore.

Edited January 23 by Turkish

[aintforever]

9 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24066835.trans-woman-samantha-norris-played-penis-front-girls/?ref=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Good to see the Echo informing us all about this fine specimen of a woman and her female penis. 

Good to see you keep up with the Daily Mail type flow of stories to feed the narrative.

The person involved is just a pervert regardless of what gender they are. Far more men commit this sort of crime and worse.

[Turkish]

16 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Good to see you keep up with the Daily Mail type flow of stories to feed the narrative.

The person involved is just a pervert regardless of what gender they are. Far more men commit this sort of crime and worse.

WTF has the Daily Mail got to do with anything? 

Edited January 23 by Turkish

[aintforever]

9 minutes ago, Turkish said:

WTF has the Daily Mail got to so with anything? 

And in English...

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, aintforever said:

And in English...

I'll say it VERY SLOWLY for you aintclever. What      has        the        Daily         Mail            got      to           do       with          anything?

[aintforever]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I'll say it VERY SLOWLY for you aintclever. What      has        the        Daily         Mail            got      to           do       with          anything?

You don’t have to say it slowly, just put the right words down. Well done.

In answer to your question, editorial style. Stories involving trans people always seem to get more attention from the likes of The Mail than worse crimes committed by men. There is an obvious narrative.

[hypochondriac]

46 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Good to see you keep up with the Daily Mail type flow of stories to feed the narrative.

The person involved is just a pervert regardless of what gender they are. Far more men commit this sort of crime and worse.

It was the local paper! Keeping up with their editorial content amount to following them on twitter. 

"far more men commit this sort of crime." I agree. Is Samantha Morris and her penis a woman? 

[aintforever]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It was the local paper! Keeping up with their editorial content amount to following them on twitter. 

"far more men commit this sort of crime." I agree. Is Samantha Morris and her penis a woman? 

She’s a trans woman, I thought the article was quite clear on that.

[Lord Duckhunter]

“She”