LGBT+ Discussion

[aintforever]

29 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I don’t know how else to interpret whatever it is you’re trying to say. I am genuinely trying to understand what it is that people want me to believe but it’s frustrating, bordering on impossible, because nobody is willing to say what anything is. Everything you’ve said is just what something isn’t, I have zero information to go on here. You’ve claimed that BDD is not a mental illness but people with it have mental triggers which lead to a massive risk of suicide. Those two points are mutually exclusive, I can’t hold both those opinions.

A quick google and I found a study that concluded this:

Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.

Whatever the reason for the suicide rate surely the fact that it is so high means they should be treated with kindness and respect?

I worked with a transexual woman a while ago and she was great. I have no idea what genitalia she had but apart from having a cracking set of tits she was clearly a transexual. She obviously felt comfortable living as a woman and made a huge effort in her appearance - IMO it would be out of order to not refer to her as a woman.  It's attitudes like yours which contribute to their problems.

Edited 16 November, 2023 by aintforever

[Lighthouse]

6 minutes ago, aintforever said:

A quick google and I found a study that concluded this:

Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.

As I’ve already said, no amount of bullying and harassment can explain 40% attempted suicide, there is clearly more to it than that and SOGs posts clearly contradicts what you’ve said, with an example of someone clearly already suffering before anyone could have guessed they’re trans.

8 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Whatever the reason for the suicide rate surely the fact that it is so high means they should be treated with kindness and respect?

Kindness and respect means being honest with people and giving the help they need, not just telling people everything they perceive is true, lest you upset them. Is it kind to tell a paranoid schizophrenic there really are voices in the walls? Or an anorexic girl that she really is too fat?

12 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I worked with a transexual woman a while ago and she was great. I have no idea what genitalia she had but apart from having a cracking set of tits she was obviously a transexual. She obviously felt comfortable living as a woman and made a huge effort in her appearance

1- Transgender. They’re completely different things, you need to go and educate yourself.

2- The only information you’ve supplied there is that someone became a woman because they got breast implants and presumably a nice hair do and make up. You can either tell women that’s the definition of a woman, or accept that it’s simply a personal style choice and not relevant.

15 minutes ago, aintforever said:

IMO only a complete cunt would not treat her as such.  It's attitudes like yours which contribute to their problems.

In other words, "you need to be more tolerant, you c*nt." Wonderful.

[aintforever]

10 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

 

Kindness and respect means being honest with people and giving the help they need, not just telling people everything they perceive is true, lest you upset them. Is it kind to tell a paranoid schizophrenic there really are voices in the walls? Or an anorexic girl that she really is too fat?

 

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness so that analogy is bollocks. People used to think being gay was an illness, as long as you see it that way there is no helping you.

The trans person I worked with went through great effort to make her self look like she did (more than most of the other women in my workplace), she was clearly happy living her life like she was, harming no-one. What exactly would you achieve be calling her a he and telling her she was a man because she was born with a cock?

Live and let live I say.

 

 

[egg]

I cba to read the above, but is it really being suggested that they think they know better than the who and the NHS and suggesting that gendee dysphoria/trans is a mental illness? 

[Sheaf Saint]

30 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

As I’ve already said, no amount of bullying and harassment can explain 40% attempted suicide, there is clearly more to it than that and SOGs posts clearly contradicts what you’ve said, with an example of someone clearly already suffering before anyone could have guessed they’re trans.

You really have no clue what you're on about do you.

Firstly, I suggest you do some reading around some of the empirical research into the issue to understand the contributing factors to the suicidality rate. I shared a load with you yesterday but you dismissed it all because you didn't like the site they were posted on instead of actually following the links. That tells me that you have no interest in actually understanding the issue and are quite happy to continue to make a fool of yourself by making absurd and, frankly, insulting assumptions about the mindset of all suicidal trans people.

Secondly, how exactly does SOG's example prove your point? Has it not occurred to you that this person might have known for many years that they were trans but had never felt comfortable or confident to come out because of fear of stigmatisation / rejection (and the kind of ignorant judgement from society that you yourself are showing)? And that having to live in the closet for so many years (likely since childhood) could possibly have fed into mental health issues in later life? You simply can't make a snap assumption that their dysphoria arose from a preexisting mental health condition and not vice versa from a few lines on a forum post. The fact that you would even suggest that makes you look like an ignorant fool with a total lack of cultural awareness around the issue.

Frankly, I would expect much better from a mod. How could any trans forum user trust that you are making good judgements on what posts are and are not acceptable on this topic when you are displaying an alarming degree of prejudice about it?

[Sheaf Saint]

31 minutes ago, egg said:

I cba to read the above, but is it really being suggested that they think they know better than the who and the NHS and suggesting that gendee dysphoria/trans is a mental illness? 

Yes. 

[Lighthouse]

50 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness so that analogy is bollocks. People used to think being gay was an illness, as long as you see it that way there is no helping you.

BDD and homosexuality are completely different, I’ve no idea why people keep trying to argue this idea that because gays were once mistreated, these gender identities must be believed in. It’s a complete non-sequitur.

53 minutes ago, aintforever said:

The trans person I worked with went through great effort to make her self look like she did (more than most of the other women in my workplace), she was clearly happy living her life like she was, harming no-one. What exactly would you achieve be calling her a he and telling her she was a man because she was born with a cock?

Live and let live I say

I’m not trying to deny anyone any right to dress however they like, however I can’t accept that as a decent, rational argument. You’ve set yourself a moral trap there, let’s say your friend and Gav the 19 stone hairy bricklayer go to a gymnasium and ask to use the ladies changing room. Do you:

a) Let neither of them in. Problem - you’ve just invalidated your own argument.

b) let both of them in. Problem - you’ve now eradicated any concept of segregated female spaces.

c) Only let in your friend and not Gav. Problem - you are now defining women based on your own personal threshold of prettiness.

I’ll cut to the point, your answer is almost certainly c, and you’re going to say it’s a ridiculous, nonsense example. Clearly it is, the whole point is somewhere between your friend and Gav, you’ve drawn a line of prettiness and called that a definition of gender. I can’t accept that, it’s not a morally decent argument.

26 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

You really have no clue what you're on about do you.

Firstly, I suggest you do some reading around some of the empirical research into the issue to understand the contributing factors to the suicidality rate. I shared a load with you yesterday but you dismissed it all because you didn't like the site they were posted on instead of actually following the links. That tells me that you have no interest in actually understanding the issue and are quite happy to continue to make a fool of yourself by making absurd and, frankly, insulting assumptions about the mindset of all suicidal trans people.

Secondly, how exactly does SOG's example prove your point? Has it not occurred to you that this person might have known for many years that they were trans but had never felt comfortable or confident to come out because of fear of stigmatisation / rejection (and the kind of ignorant judgement from society that you yourself are showing)? And that having to live in the closet for so many years (likely since childhood) could possibly have fed into mental health issues in later life? You simply can't make a snap assumption that their dysphoria arose from a preexisting mental health condition and not vice versa from a few lines on a forum post. The fact that you would even suggest that makes you look like an ignorant fool with a total lack of cultural awareness around the issue.

Frankly, I would expect much better from a mod. How could any trans forum user trust that you are making good judgements on what posts are and are not acceptable on this topic when you are displaying an alarming degree of prejudice about it?

I’ve tried to be polite and reasonable, clearly we have a massively different idea of what constitutes a mental health problem. I fundamentally believe that the idea of being ‘stuck in the wrong body’ is a mental health problem, you don’t. I guess we both have to live with that. Do all those things you’ve mentioned lead to problems, yes no doubt. Do they alone account for such a massive attempted suicide rate, compared to other problems in society? No, I don’t accept that.

You’ve clearly exceeded the point of being polite and reasonable, as your last paragraph proves. You’re getting personal and it’s just nonsense, at no point have I tried to silence you or anyone else who disagrees with me on this thread (or any other). You know this perfectly well if you’re being honest, so stop trying to play the victim of something which isn’t happening. I have no prejudice at all on this subject, I simply haven’t seen anything close to the burden of proof for what you want me to believe. If your definition of prejudice is not believing what I’m told by someone who feels like it’s true, we clearly disagree on that too. Just be glad I didn’t do that when they came at me with a bible in school.

Anyway, between you repeatedly calling me ignorant, prejudice and a fool and aintforever calling me a c*nt I think I’ve had enough lessons on tolerance and acceptance for one day. I bid you all a pleasant evening and leave with a simple point; I’m not trying to deny anyone their right to dress, sleep with or behave in a manner they see fit. Just don’t tell me or anyone else we have to believe or deny anything that we do/don’t believe.

[Sheaf Saint]

37 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You’ve clearly exceeded the point of being polite and reasonable, as your last paragraph proves. You’re getting personal and it’s just nonsense, at no point have I tried to silence you or anyone else who disagrees with me on this thread (or any other). You know this perfectly well if you’re being honest, so stop trying to play the victim of something which isn’t happening.

I'm not claiming you have tried to silence me, and I'm not 'playing the victim', I'm just pointing out the serious flaws in your arguments and lack of balanced judgement and unwillingness to learn more about a sensitive issue. If you think that's me exceeding the point of being polite and reasonable then I would suggest you are the one playing the victim here, not me.

39 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I have no prejudice at all on this subject, I simply haven’t seen anything close to the burden of proof for what you want me to believe. If your definition of prejudice is not believing what I’m told by someone who feels like it’s true, we clearly disagree on that too.

I'm not asking you to believe something that someone feels is true, I'm asking you to read the empirical research that contradicts your unfounded opinion. Not the same thing at all. To flatly refuse to do that, and to continue to express an opinion that is not supported by the available evidence, is indicative of prejudice on your part even if you do not acknowledge it yourself.

So I'm sorry if you think my last paragraph was impolite and unreasonable, but considering you have a responsibility to moderate comments on this board that could be construed as discriminatory to minority groups, I find your lack of judgement on this issue troubling.

[egg]

2 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Yes. 

The mind boggles. I'll stick with the WHO, NHS etc on this, bit the suggestion that people must be mentally ill if they feel a disconnect with their gender feels about as right as saying that gay people are mentally ill. 

[Turkish]

3 hours ago, egg said:

I cba to read the above, but is it really being suggested that they think they know better than the who and the NHS and suggesting that gendee dysphoria/trans is a mental illness? 

Look at “Sophie” above. A “woman” that looks and sounds like a bloke wearing lip stick, because that’s what they are. Threatening to get Santander done for hate crime because they thought his male voice was the voice of a man. Yeah that’s perfectly normal behaviour. 

[Turkish]

I know someone who transitioned from a man to a woman and regularly boasts about how easy it is to pull women now. He is now a lesbian. 

[egg]

23 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Look at “Sophie” above. A “woman” that looks and sounds like a bloke wearing lip stick, because that’s what they are. Threatening to get Santander done for hate crime because they thought his male voice was the voice of a man. Yeah that’s perfectly normal behaviour. 

That's a completely different point. Odd/entitled behaviour from some individuals doesn't mean people with gender dysphoria are mentally ill. Don't get me wrong, I struggle with understanding how people can't identify with their gender, but when actual medics and medical organisations say it's not a mental illness, I'm not sure why blokes on a football forum think that their opinion is the one that matters. 

[Turkish]

9 minutes ago, egg said:

That's a completely different point. Odd/entitled behaviour from some individuals doesn't mean people with gender dysphoria are mentally ill. Don't get me wrong, I struggle with understanding how people can't identify with their gender, but when actual medics and medical organisations say it's not a mental illness, I'm not sure why blokes on a football forum think that their opinion is the one that matters. 

But there is a significant link between gender dyphoria and mental illness, even the biggest trumpeter of LGBT stuff on here  Sheaf saint admitted that. So it’s not a huge stretch to see why some people would think that in some cases the gender issue is part of the mental issue. 
 

as for blokes of a football forums opinion, I’m sure the Israelis aren’t reading the Israel thread desperate to Be told what they should be doing next, nothing we post on here matters despite how seriously some of this lot take it

Edited 16 November, 2023 by Turkish

[egg]

Just now, Turkish said:

But there is a significant link between gender dyphoria and mental illness, even the biggest trumpeter of LGBT stuff on here  Sheaf saint admitted that. So it’s not a huge stretch to see why some people would think that in some cases the gender issue is part of the mental issue. 

Having mental health issues as a consequence of gender dysphoria does not make gender dysphoria a mental health issue in itself. Lots of things can lead to mental health issues. Example, unemployment can lead to mental health issues, but that doesn't make unemployment a mental health issue. Gender dysphoria is not a mental health condition. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

5 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

 

I assumed that her issues revolved around her sexuality, not that she ever intimated that in any of the group sessions we shared.

 

 

So what made you think that then?
 

That’s a bit pervy if you ask me….immediately jumping to the conclusion she had sexual issues because she was a Lesbian. When was this, 1972? 

Edited 16 November, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[Turkish]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

Having mental health issues as a consequence of gender dysphoria does not make gender dysphoria a mental health issue in itself. Lots of things can lead to mental health issues. Example, unemployment can lead to mental health issues, but that doesn't make unemployment a mental health issue. Gender dysphoria is not a mental health condition. 

 

Terrible example. What’s the thing people say when they want to transition? They think or feel like they’re in the wrong body. Where do thoughts and feelings come from? 
 

you don’t feel unemployed that’s a situation that happens to you. 

it really isn’t that big a stretch to think that in some, Not all, but some cases it’s a mental issue 

 

Edited 16 November, 2023 by Turkish

[egg]

12 minutes ago, Turkish said:

as for blokes of a football forums opinion, I’m sure the Israelis aren’t reading the Israel thread desperate to Be told what they should be doing next, nothing we post on here matters despite how seriously some of this lot take it

We're all qualified to have an opinion on what's happening over there. None of us are qualified to know better than the WHO or NHS medics.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, egg said:

We're all qualified to have an opinion on what's happening over there. None of us are qualified to know better than the WHO or NHS medics.

We’re no more qualified to Comment on what governments, lawsyers and military experts are doing than we are to comment on what health experts think. 

[egg]

Just now, Turkish said:

Terrible example. What’s the thing people say when they want to transition? They think or feel like they’re in the wrong body. Where do thoughts and feelings come from? 
 

you don’t feel unemployed that’s a situation that happens to you. 
 

 

The example was deliberately absurd to highlight how absurd your point was. 

Gender dysphoria is something that happens to people. They don't choose it. They also don't choose any mental health issues that may flow from it. It's not complicated. 

 

[egg]

Just now, Turkish said:

We’re no more qualified to Comment on what governments, lawsyers and military experts are doing than we are to comment on what health experts think. 

Nonsense. We're all qualified to have a valid opinion on whether Israeli government action is over the top. That's a world away from believing that doctors are wrong, and that gender dysphoria must be a mental illness cos you think it is. 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, egg said:

The example was deliberately absurd to highlight how absurd your point was. 

Gender dysphoria is something that happens to people. They don't choose it. They also don't choose any mental health issues that may flow from it. It's not complicated. 

 

People don’t chose mental illness either or to get diseases, all things that happen to people.

how do people know they’re in the wrong body? 

[egg]

Just now, Turkish said:

People don’t chose mental illness either or to get diseases, all things that happen to people.

how do people know they’re in the wrong body? 

That doesn't make much sense Del. However you cut it, it doesn't become a mental illness because you want it to be. 

Second point, I have no idea. How do gay people know they're gay before they're sexually active? They're both situations that I can't relate to, but both are people feeling different to that which is traditionally expected of their birth gender, but neither person is mentally ill. 

[Turkish]

Just now, egg said:

Nonsense. We're all qualified to have a valid opinion on whether Israeli government action is over the top. That's a world away from believing that doctors are wrong, and that gender dysphoria must be a mental illness cos you think it is. 

so we can have an opinion on what a country thousands of miles away that’s a different race, religion and culture should do in a war situation but we can’t have an opinion on health issues. Okay then

[Turkish]

Just now, egg said:

That doesn't make much sense Del. However you cut it, it doesn't become a mental illness because you want it to be. 

Second point, I have no idea. How do gay people know they're gay before they're sexually active? They're both situations that I can't relate to, but both are people feeling different to that which is traditionally expected of their birth gender, but neither person is mentally ill. 

I don’t want it it be, I don’t really care what it is but as I said it’s not a huge stretch to see why some might think it is. Bizarre you would think would want it to be. 

[egg]

Just now, Turkish said:

so we can have an opinion on what a country thousands of miles away that’s a different race, religion and culture should do in a war situation but we can’t have an opinion on health issues. Okay then

Yep. We all have moral compasses and should have an opinion on what's happening in the middle east. I'd never be so arrogant as to challenge the conclusions of medical science though. 

[sadoldgit]

3 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

You really have no clue what you're on about do you.

Firstly, I suggest you do some reading around some of the empirical research into the issue to understand the contributing factors to the suicidality rate. I shared a load with you yesterday but you dismissed it all because you didn't like the site they were posted on instead of actually following the links. That tells me that you have no interest in actually understanding the issue and are quite happy to continue to make a fool of yourself by making absurd and, frankly, insulting assumptions about the mindset of all suicidal trans people.

Secondly, how exactly does SOG's example prove your point? Has it not occurred to you that this person might have known for many years that they were trans but had never felt comfortable or confident to come out because of fear of stigmatisation / rejection (and the kind of ignorant judgement from society that you yourself are showing)? And that having to live in the closet for so many years (likely since childhood) could possibly have fed into mental health issues in later life? You simply can't make a snap assumption that their dysphoria arose from a preexisting mental health condition and not vice versa from a few lines on a forum post. The fact that you would even suggest that makes you look like an ignorant fool with a total lack of cultural awareness around the issue.

Frankly, I would expect much better from a mod. How could any trans forum user trust that you are making good judgements on what posts are and are not acceptable on this topic when you are displaying an alarming degree of prejudice about it?

I think you are right. Although I haven’t had that conversation with Alex since his transition, during our previous conversations and from what he shared in therapy groups, he was also comfortable with his sexuality and was in no doubt that his sexual preference was women. At no time did he give any indication that he wanted to transition but there were issues there that were not being addressed.

It did come as a shock to me when I heard that he had completed the process but the complete change in his outlook and general demeanour was incredible. I do get the feeling that his previous mental health problems were down to his struggle with the issue of transition. No mention whatsoever during months of therapy. No mention of it when we would go out for a few drinks and talk about what had taken us to The Priory. I don’t think it is a stretch to say that he was having major issues with talking about wanting to transition and that is where his anxiety and depression stemmed from.

I have never asked him about it and I will never bring it up unless he wants to discuss it with me. As far as I am concerned he is in a far better place now as a man than he was all those years ago as a women and that is all that matters. 

Ok, it is a sample of one and doesn’t prove or disprove anything, but given what I know of Alex’s experience and listening to other people with trans issues, I do believe that there is a lot more than feeling/believing that you have been born in the wrong body than mental illness. I also believe that we shouldn’t dump our own prejudices onto those whose condition we do not remotely understand.
 

 

[Turkish]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep. We all have moral compasses and should have an opinion on what's happening in the middle east. I'd never be so arrogant as to challenge the conclusions of medical science though. 

Good job no one ever challenged the thalidomide drug then. Oh wait….

[egg]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Good job no one ever challenged the thalidomide drug then. Oh wait….

And you said my unemployment analogy was crap! 

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Good job no one ever challenged the thalidomide drug then. Oh wait….

It is strange how some think science always has the absolute truth about everything then smugly think anyone challenging anything is of lower intellect.  
 

Whilst is generally true, not always. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

It is strange how some think science always has the absolute truth about everything then smugly think anyone challenging anything is of lower intellect.  
 

Whilst is generally true, not always. 

Science doesn't always have the truth, but suggesting that people must be mentally ill just because, doesn't feel like a challenge of the science. It feels like an opinion with nothing to support it. 

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Science doesn't always have the truth, but suggesting that people must be mentally ill just because, doesn't feel like a challenge of the science. It feels like an opinion with nothing to support it. 

I was making general point. I actually don’t know enough about it all or enough first hand experience to have strong opinion. Although Sophie is a fucking nobhead. And trans campaigners seem so angry generally

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

That's a completely different point. Odd/entitled behaviour from some individuals doesn't mean people with gender dysphoria are mentally ill. Don't get me wrong, I struggle with understanding how people can't identify with their gender, but when actual medics and medical organisations say it's not a mental illness, I'm not sure why blokes on a football forum think that their opinion is the one that matters. 

Are anorexics mentally ill? 

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Are anorexics mentally ill? 

Our daughter's best friend from school died of anorexia at the age of 15. When she was in hospital dying, she still saw herself as fat and refused food. If that isn't a sign of mental disorder, I don't know what is.

Edited 17 November, 2023 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

36 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Our daughter's best friend from school died of anorexia at the age of 15. When she was in hospital dying, she still saw herself as fat and refused food. If that isn't a sign of mental disorder, I don't know what is.

That's very sad to hear. I have a family friend who suffered in a similar manner though she did manage to recover. The answer is of course that it is a mental disorder. Like you say, they view themselves as fat which is at odds with reality. I'd genuinely be interested in reading a medical study that explains why that is different from someone believing they are a woman which is similarly at odds with reality. 

I get that some people don't actually believe they are really a man or a woman or vice versa, they just feel better presenting as the other sex so I can sort of see that argument for suggesting it's not a mental condition. Many people do though actually believe they are a man trapped in a woman's body or a woman trapped in a man's body. In that circumstance I can't see how someone can seriously argue there is any substantial difference between anorexia or something like phantom limb syndrome where someone claims to feel more comfortable with a limb chopped off. 

Edited 17 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[egg]

6 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Our daughter's best friend from school died of anorexia at the age of 15. When she was in hospital dying, she still saw herself as fat and refused food. If that isn't a sign of mental disorder, I don't know what is.

I'm sorry to hear that badger, very sad. We've got a family friend who has spent time in a facility up north for treatment when she was some stupidly low weight, 4ish stone I think. She pulled through fortunately and has recovered. On the subject, anorexia is a mental health condition. That it is, doesn't make gender dysphoria one. 

 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

8 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

 At no time did he give any indication that he wanted to transition but there were issues there that were not being addressed.
 

 

Mental health ones?

[egg]

22 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Mental health ones?

If they were, it doesn't alter that mental health issues relating to gender dysphoria does not make it a mental health issue of itself. It's quite bewildering that people can't/won't see the distinction. 

[hypochondriac]

So phantom limb syndrome - an overwhelming desire to adapt the body to a perceived mental illness. This disphoria sometimes culminates in individuals trying to chop of the limb they don't believe to be theirs in order to make thenselves feel better. Clearly a mental illness and these people should be saved from themselves. 

Body integrity identity disorder (biid) an overwhelming desire to adapt the body to a perceived mental image. This strong disphoria sometimes culminates in individuals intentionally making themselves blind to remove their distress. Clearly a mental illness and these people should be saved from themselves. 

Gender disphoria. An overwhelming desire to adapt your presentation to a perceived mental image. This disphoria sometimes culminates in individuals intentionally removing their genitals in order to remove their distress. Clearly not a mental illness and these people should be allowed to go ahead with gender surgeries, leading to lifelong medicalisation, necrosis, premature aging, increased risk of cancers and having to dilate with a dildo due to the wound where their penis used to be continually trying to close itself up.

Make it make sense. 

 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So phantom limb syndrome - an overwhelming desire to adapt the body to a perceived mental illness. This disphoria sometimes culminates in individuals trying to chop of the limb they don't believe to be theirs in order to make thenselves feel better. Clearly a mental illness and these people should be saved from themselves. 

Body integrity identity disorder (biid) an overwhelming desire to adapt the body to a perceived mental image. This strong disphoria sometimes culminates in individuals intentionally making themselves blind to remove their distress. Clearly a mental illness and these people should be saved from themselves. 

Gender disphoria. An overwhelming desire to adapt your presentation to a perceived mental image. This disphoria sometimes culminates in individuals intentionally removing their genitals in order to remove their distress. Clearly not a mental illness and these people should be allowed to go ahead with gender surgeries, leading to lifelong medicalisation, necrosis, premature aging, increased risk of cancers and having to dilate with a dildo due to the wound where their penis used to be continually trying to close itself up.

Make it make sense. 

 

Having the initial thoughts and feelings is not an illness, much like with homosexuality. Thereafter, the confusion, frustration, feelings of social exclusion, etc are what leads to mental health issues and sometimes extreme behaviour. The lines are fine, granted, but there are clear distinctions.

I have a long-standing friend who tried to top himself when he realised he was gay when he was 16. He wasn't ill, he was gay, but he couldn't comprehend why he fancied men and felt wrong cos that was societies view back then. He tried to drown himself and was sectioned under the mental health act. He became ill as a consequence of his non illness. That distinction applies to this issue imo. 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

Having the initial thoughts and feelings is not an illness, much like with homosexuality. Thereafter, the confusion, frustration, feelings of social exclusion, etc are what leads to mental health issues and sometimes extreme behaviour. The lines are fine, granted, but there are clear distinctions.

I have a long-standing friend who tried to top himself when he realised he was gay when he was 16. He wasn't ill, he was gay, but he couldn't comprehend why he fancied men and felt wrong cos that was societies view back then. He tried to drown himself and was sectioned under the mental health act. He became ill as a consequence of his non illness. That distinction applies to this issue imo. 

So having an intense desire to cut your arm off isn't a mental illness if you don't act on those feelings? What about if you have voices in your head telling you to kill someone? If you don't act on it it's not a mental illness? 

Edited 17 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[Weston Super Saint]

39 minutes ago, egg said:

If they were, it doesn't alter that mental health issues relating to gender dysphoria does not make it a mental health issue of itself. It's quite bewildering that people can't/won't see the distinction. 

Including the NHS it would seem...

They are happy to classify Body Dysmorphia as a mental illness LINK

Quote

Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD), or body dysmorphia, is a mental health condition where a person spends a lot of time worrying about flaws in their appearance. These flaws are often unnoticeable to others.

On the other hand, Gender Dysmorphia (where an individual wants to REMOVE an entire organ(s) of their body, which is literally the definition of body dysmorphia) is NOT a mental illness LINK

Quote

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, but some people may develop mental health problems because of gender dysphoria.

It seems disingenous that the NHS would classify one condition where an individual spends time worrying about themselves as a mental illness, but another where individuals do exactly the same thing as not a mental illness!

It's another example of political correctness gone wrong.

I accept that it is not classified as a mental illness, but can see no logical reason why it isn't given the criteria for classifying body dysmorphia as one.  In terms of the affect on the individual between the two conditions, I'm struggling to see a difference.....

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Including the NHS it would seem...

They are happy to classify Body Dysmorphia as a mental illness LINK

On the other hand, Gender Dysmorphia (where an individual wants to REMOVE an entire organ(s) of their body, which is literally the definition of body dysmorphia) is NOT a mental illness LINK

It seems disingenous that the NHS would classify one condition where an individual spends time worrying about themselves as a mental illness, but another where individuals do exactly the same thing as not a mental illness!

It's another example of political correctness gone wrong.

I accept that it is not classified as a mental illness, but can see no logical reason why it isn't given the criteria for classifying body dysmorphia as one.  In terms of the affect on the individual between the two conditions, I'm struggling to see a difference.....

The WHO do not regard gender dysphoria as an illness. Quite rightly imo. Men with gender dysphoria don't want to be men. Gay men don't want to have sex with women. Assuming you don't believe the latter to be mentally ill, I'm struggling to see why you think the former are...

I think that some people in this discussion (not necessarily here, but the wider discussion) view those genuinely struggling to accept their birth gender in the same way as the people who choose to alter their gender for whatever reason. The latter could very well be unwell. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

The WHO do not regard gender dysphoria as an illness. Quite rightly imo. Men with gender dysphoria don't want to be men. Gay men don't want to have sex with women. Assuming you don't believe the latter to be mentally ill, I'm struggling to see why you think the former are...

I think that some people in this discussion (not necessarily here, but the wider discussion) view those genuinely struggling to accept their birth gender in the same way as the people who choose to alter their gender for whatever reason. The latter could very well be unwell. 

So having gender dysphoria is only a mental illness if it affects you to the extent that you need to remove your genitals? 

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

The WHO do not regard gender dysphoria as an illness. Quite rightly imo. Men with gender dysphoria don't want to be men. Gay men don't want to have sex with women. Assuming you don't believe the latter to be mentally ill, I'm struggling to see why you think the former are...

I think that some people in this discussion (not necessarily here, but the wider discussion) view those genuinely struggling to accept their birth gender in the same way as the people who choose to alter their gender for whatever reason. The latter could very well be unwell. 

And spend their time constantly worrying about it - the same way that people with body dysmorphia do.

Again, I understand that it is not classified as a mental disorder, but question whether it should be.

Either that or we declassify body dysmorphia to no longer be a mental illness and ignore the plight of those currently suffering / help those with anorexia to become even skinnier!  Which seems wrong!

When it comes to the WHO, they've been wrong before (see COVID) and will be again. Currently they are classing old people being lonely as a global catastrophe 

[egg]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So having gender dysphoria is only a mental illness if it affects you to the extent that you need to remove your genitals? 

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. The WHO say so. I agree. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

And spend their time constantly worrying about it - the same way that people with body dysmorphia do.

Again, I understand that it is not classified as a mental disorder, but question whether it should be.

Either that or we declassify body dysmorphia to no longer be a mental illness and ignore the plight of those currently suffering / help those with anorexia to become even skinnier!  Which seems wrong!

When it comes to the WHO, they've been wrong before (see COVID) and will be again. Currently they are classing old people being lonely as a global catastrophe 

Your first paragraph highlights the distinction. They have the dysphoria, then issues can come. That doesn't make the initial dysphoria an illness.

I get why you question that it should be an illness, but I think the homosexuality comparison is a fair one. People aren't ill if they feel at odds with either the gender or assumed sexuality that they are born with. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. The WHO say so. I agree. 

I accept that's your position but with respect that isn't answering either of the questions I posted above. On the face of it you must admit that there really is little difference between the conditions I posted above and gender dysphoria. Let's not forget that it was reclassified as not a mental illness just five years ago following intense political pressure and lobbying from groups that no longer wanted to be called mentally ill. I'd argue that if we accept that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness that we must also accept that body integrity identity disorder is similarly not a mental illness since it's essentially the same thing for those who feel the need to remove body parts. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Your first paragraph highlights the distinction. They have the dysphoria, then issues can come. That doesn't make the initial dysphoria an illness.

I get why you question that it should be an illness, but I think the homosexuality comparison is a fair one. People aren't ill if they feel at odds with either the gender or assumed sexuality that they are born with. 

Is there a name then for people with gender dysphoria who then push ahead with an operation to have their penis removed? Do you accept that this category of gender dysphoric people have a mental illness? 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I accept that's your position but with respect that isn't answering either of the questions I posted above. On the face of it you must admit that there really is little difference between the conditions I posted above and gender dysphoria. Let's not forget that it was reclassified as not a mental illness just five years ago following intense political pressure and lobbying from groups that no longer wanted to be called mentally ill. I'd argue that if we accept that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness that we must also accept that body integrity identity disorder is similarly not a mental illness since it's essentially the same thing for those who feel the need to remove body parts. 

It's not my position. It's a medical position. I don't need to justify or argue the cause. However, I think there are very clear differences between this dysphoria and others - false equivalence to use on your phrases. 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Is there a name then for people with gender dysphoria who then push ahead with an operation to have their penis removed? Do you accept that this category of gender dysphoric people have a mental illness? 

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. You'll get the same answer every time you ask me whether I think it is or isn't.