LGBT+ Discussion

[Picard]

 

 

[Turkish]

A transgender non binary player in the women’s World Cup 

 

[ashnats]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

A transgender non binary player in the women’s World Cup 

 

Lol he is such a dickhead boomer.

[cloggy saint]

1 minute ago, ashnats said:

Lol he is such a dickhead boomer.

Morgan or turkish?

[egg]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

A transgender non binary player in the women’s World Cup 

 

Piers blunt as hell, but his point is that it's curious that someone who doesn't identify as a woman wants to play in the women's world cup is a valid one. 

He also throws in "and she wants to be a they even though there's only one of them".  An individual being identified in the plural is an oddity. 

[Turkish]

7 hours ago, ashnats said:

Lol he is such a dickhead boomer.

He is but he’s right on this topic 

[Turkish]

7 hours ago, egg said:

Piers blunt as hell, but his point is that it's curious that someone who doesn't identify as a woman wants to play in the women's world cup is a valid one. 

He also throws in "and she wants to be a they even though there's only one of them".  An individual being identified in the plural is an oddity. 

He’s also right about everyone is expected to celebrate this as being a great moment 

[Lighthouse]

Morgan is a contrarian who goes for the low hanging fruit by bringing a bunch of unhinged lunatics on the show who are easy to argue against. He’s the TV equivalent of the people who constantly need to tell everyone how shocked and disgusted they are by some nonsense they’ve read on Twitter, nothing more.

[badgerx16]

2 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

.......people who constantly need to tell everyone how shocked and disgusted they are by some nonsense they’ve read on Twitter,..,.

Does he have a login on SWF ?

[revolution saint]

19 hours ago, egg said:

Piers blunt as hell, but his point is that it's curious that someone who doesn't identify as a woman wants to play in the women's world cup is a valid one. 

He also throws in "and she wants to be a they even though there's only one of them".  An individual being identified in the plural is an oddity. 

TBF if "they" did the opposite and said they wanted to play in the mens game then there would be an equal reaction from those getting worked up about them playing in the womens game so they can't really win.

Seems like they're taking the view that in this context it's right to play in the womens game because biologically that's what they are.  All those people complaining about biological men competing as women should be applauding this move.

I don't really understand how you can be both transgender and non-binary either.  It's a strange concept but I doubt there's enough of them to have much of a World Cup on their own.

Edited 26 July, 2023 by revolution saint

[aintforever]

4 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Morgan is a contrarian who goes for the low hanging fruit by bringing a bunch of unhinged lunatics on the show who are easy to argue against. He’s the TV equivalent of the people who constantly need to tell everyone how shocked and disgusted they are by some nonsense they’ve read on Twitter, nothing more.

And there’s plenty of those on here.

Edited 26 July, 2023 by aintforever

[egg]

23 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

TBF if "they" did the opposite and said they wanted to play in the mens game then there would be an equal reaction from those getting worked up about them playing in the womens game so they can't really win.

Seems like they're taking the view that in this context it's right to play in the womens game because biologically that's what they are.  All those people complaining about biological men competing as women should be applauding this move.

I don't really understand how you can be both transgender and non-binary either.  It's a strange concept but I doubt there's enough of them to have much of a World Cup on their own.

When has a person who's transitioned from female to male ever elected to compete as a male in competitive sport? It's always the other way.  

On the other point, although it's an odd concept, I can see how someone can transition physically, but elect to identify as non binary. 

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, egg said:

When has a person who's transitioned from female to male ever elected to compete as a male in competitive sport? It's always the other way.  

On the other point, although it's an odd concept, I can see how someone can transition physically, but elect to identify as non binary. 

You cannot transition physically, you can only ‘transition’ your own personal paradigm of gender in your mind. To that extent you can identify as whatever you want, but it’s of no relevance to the rest of society. If you want to identify as a non-binary woman, fine but you’re making up your own definitions for those words, to everyone else they are essentially meaningless.

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You cannot transition physically, you can only ‘transition’ your own personal paradigm of gender in your mind. To that extent you can identify as whatever you want, but it’s of no relevance to the rest of society. If you want to identify as a non-binary woman, fine but you’re making up your own definitions for those words, to everyone else they are essentially meaningless.

The physical transition is a physical transition. That follows the personal decision to shift gender. It absolutely includes a physical process, and there's no reason why anyone who undergoes all of that could subsequently conclude that they do no identity with either their gender of birth or choice. Why, fuck knows, but they could. 

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, egg said:

The physical transition is a physical transition. That follows the personal decision to shift gender. It absolutely includes a physical process, and there's no reason why anyone who undergoes all of that could subsequently conclude that they do no identity with either their gender of birth or choice. Why, fuck knows, but they could. 

The physical process is nothing more than cosmetic surgery. A person who has developed from an embryo to have testicles and produce sperm cannot become a person who has developed as an embryo to have ovaries and produce eggs. That’s the literal, physical, factual definition of gender, a necessary truth you cannot change no matter how much you might want to.

If you physically remove the genitalia of a man, you have not created a woman. I don’t know how to say any more plainly that that isn’t true. The person in this example has cut off some body parts and in their own mind is now identifying as their own personal idea of something. Their physical gender has not changed.

All of this is like someone saying they’re trans-astrological, because they’re a Pisces but they choose to identify as Libra. Carry on, I don’t care, but if you need me to accept that you’ve physically changed your birth month from August to February as a truth, I can’t do that. That’s the big problem here, known truths are being willingly conflated with subjective personal identities, deliberately, to make it seem like the truths are up for debate. They aren’t.

[egg]

What you're describing is the physical aspect of transitioning from gender a to gender b. Whether you like it or not, and/or choose to recognise it or not, there is a recognised process where after a person elects to transition from one gender to the other (deliberate wording - there are only 2), the fact if the matter is that there is a physical process involved. Sure, no bloke will ever fully be altered to female, but it's daft to say that when tradition there isn't a physical change. 

Many many years ago I signed off the affidavits of a person reassigning (as the process called it) from male to female. They had to do these affidavits at various stages, ie to verify the identification element, then the others the others covered the hormonal changes through medication, then more physical stuff. Having met that person at each stage, and heard and read  details, there was no denying that there was a physical process and physical change. Sure, the person was not and could not be a complete women in the biological sense, but she identified as one, looked like one, spoke and acted like one, and had physically become as close as possible. 

Oh, your star sign analogy is a shocker. 

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, egg said:

looked like one, spoke and acted like one

Oh right, and how do women look, speak and act?

[The Kraken]

9 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

The physical process is nothing more than cosmetic surgery. A person who has developed from an embryo to have testicles and produce sperm cannot become a person who has developed as an embryo to have ovaries and produce eggs. That’s the literal, physical, factual definition of gender, a necessary truth you cannot change no matter how much you might want to.

If you physically remove the genitalia of a man, you have not created a woman. I don’t know how to say any more plainly that that isn’t true. The person in this example has cut off some body parts and in their own mind is now identifying as their own personal idea of something. Their physical gender has not changed.

All of this is like someone saying they’re trans-astrological, because they’re a Pisces but they choose to identify as Libra. Carry on, I don’t care, but if you need me to accept that you’ve physically changed your birth month from August to February as a truth, I can’t do that. That’s the big problem here, known truths are being willingly conflated with subjective personal identities, deliberately, to make it seem like the truths are up for debate. They aren’t.

Looks like you’re conflating the term ‘gender’ with ‘sex’. The two aren’t the same. Sex as a terminology refers to the biological nature of a person, whereas gender refers to behaviours and societal norms. Hence why it is often said that people identify as a different gender to their birth sex. Your whole diatribe would ring true if you were defining sex, but the whole definition of gender allows it to be interchangeable and entirely non-binary.

[egg]

10 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Looks like you’re conflating the term ‘gender’ with ‘sex’. The two aren’t the same. Sex as a terminology refers to the biological nature of a person, whereas gender refers to behaviours and societal norms. Hence why it is often said that people identify as a different gender to their birth sex. Your whole diatribe would ring true if you were defining sex, but the whole definition of gender allows it to be interchangeable and entirely non-binary.

Thanks, you saved me a job. 

[badgerx16]

This is all well and good, but what about the Otherkins and Therians ?

https://www.vice.com/en/article/mvxgwa/from-dragons-to-foxes-the-otherkin-community-believes-you-can-be-whatever-you-want-to-be

[Lighthouse]

39 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Looks like you’re conflating the term ‘gender’ with ‘sex’. The two aren’t the same. Sex as a terminology refers to the biological nature of a person, whereas gender refers to behaviours and societal norms. Hence why it is often said that people identify as a different gender to their birth sex. Your whole diatribe would ring true if you were defining sex, but the whole definition of gender allows it to be interchangeable and entirely non-binary.

That argument holds no water at all. Firstly, gender is based on Latin, it’s existed as a word meaning the difference between men and women for centuries, long before anyone started identifying as things. I keep reading this argument about ‘behaviours and societal norms’ but everyone then chickens out of explaining what exactly these ‘woman behaviours’ are which constitute gender. Perhaps you can list some of them for me.

The other, more sinister aspect of that argument is that the people saying it don’t believe it at all and have no intention of acknowledging the supposed difference between ‘biological sex’ and ‘social gender’. If they did genuinely believe that then none of these issues would exist. Trans woman can just compete in men’s sports and use women’s changing rooms, because they’re separated based on biological sex. So there’s no issue, right? People identify as a different gender to their birth sex and what do they do: attempt to change their biology using surgery and hormones, then ask for access to things designed for biological women.

Finally, it’s not a diatribe. I’ve not said anything, unfair, irrational or hateful which I can’t back up with sound facts and logic. If you don’t like that, fine, but you’re going to need to answer a few basic questions first, like ‘what is a woman’ and what are these society behaviours you need to exhibit to define yourself as such?

[skintsaint]

30 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

This is all well and good, but what about the Otherkins and Therians ?

https://www.vice.com/en/article/mvxgwa/from-dragons-to-foxes-the-otherkin-community-believes-you-can-be-whatever-you-want-to-be

Probably easier to see a vet when sick than a doctor so good call.

[The Kraken]

35 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

That argument holds no water at all. Firstly, gender is based on Latin, it’s existed as a word meaning the difference between men and women for centuries, long before anyone started identifying as things. I keep reading this argument about ‘behaviours and societal norms’ but everyone then chickens out of explaining what exactly these ‘woman behaviours’ are which constitute gender. Perhaps you can list some of them for me.

The other, more sinister aspect of that argument is that the people saying it don’t believe it at all and have no intention of acknowledging the supposed difference between ‘biological sex’ and ‘social gender’. If they did genuinely believe that then none of these issues would exist. Trans woman can just compete in men’s sports and use women’s changing rooms, because they’re separated based on biological sex. So there’s no issue, right? People identify as a different gender to their birth sex and what do they do: attempt to change their biology using surgery and hormones, then ask for access to things designed for biological women.

Finally, it’s not a diatribe. I’ve not said anything, unfair, irrational or hateful which I can’t back up with sound facts and logic. If you don’t like that, fine, but you’re going to need to answer a few basic questions first, like ‘what is a woman’ and what are these society behaviours you need to exhibit to define yourself as such?

The definition of gender is quite clear, it’s a term whose definition has evolved over much time. I absolutely don’t have to answer any basic questions first as it’s there is a difference between sex and gender, the term gender has evolved over a long period of time and it just doesn’t mean the same thing as sex.

As to your wholly nonsense statement “the people saying it don’t believe it at all and have no intention of acknowledging the supposed difference between ‘biological sex’ and ‘social gender’”, this is the complete opposite of what I think, so well done there. As I’ve said sex and gender have different meanings, and basing things on the modern-day understanding of gender rather than sex starts to make things troublesome. That said, it’s an enormously complex societal issue that isn’t solved by a simple one size fits all remedy.

Edited 27 July, 2023 by The Kraken

[whelk]

16 hours ago, revolution saint said:

I don't really understand how you can be both transgender and non-binary either.  It's a strange concept but I doubt there's enough of them to have much of a World Cup on their own.

Some careful use of masking tape and I reckon I could get a game

[revolution saint]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Some careful use of masking tape and I reckon I could get a game

There's only your eyes to mask?

[Lighthouse]

8 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

The definition of gender is quite clear, it’s a term whose definition has evolved over much time. I absolutely don’t have to answer any basic questions first as it’s there is a difference between sex and gender, the term gender has evolved over a long period of time and it just doesn’t mean the same thing as sex.

Another post goes by with any definition of anything, this is the only thing anyone can come up with, "its, obviously different to biological sex." Fantastic, I’m bored with hearing what it’s not and what it’s different too, what is it? Give me a clear definition of gender, women and the non-biological social behaviours which apparently define them.

14 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

As to your wholly nonsense statement “the people saying it don’t believe it at all and have no intention of acknowledging the supposed difference between ‘biological sex’ and ‘social gender’”, this is the complete opposite of what I think, so well done there

Okay, so you agree with me then that there’s no need whatsoever for biological men to compete in women’s sports and use women’s changing rooms? Excellent. Unfortunately most people advocating for ‘trans rights’ don’t seem to share your view.

[The Kraken]

57 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Another post goes by with any definition of anything, this is the only thing anyone can come up with, "its, obviously different to biological sex." Fantastic, I’m bored with hearing what it’s not and what it’s different too, what is it? Give me a clear definition of gender, women and the non-biological social behaviours which apparently define them.

Okay, so you agree with me then that there’s no need whatsoever for biological men to compete in women’s sports and use women’s changing rooms? Excellent. Unfortunately most people advocating for ‘trans rights’ don’t seem to share your view.

If you want definitions and examples of how gender is seen as being different to sex, there’s tonnes of information out there on the subject. You can start with good old Wikipedia, lots of examples for you there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender 

And yes, of course biological men shouldn’t compete in women’s sports. It’s insane that gender has dictated these areas, it should be done by biological sex. That said, there also clearly needs to be something of a shift for inclusivity, which is why many sports are now looking at ‘open’ categories and ‘female only’, which imo is the absolute right approach. The changing room analogy is valid but, as I said, a simple one size fits all rule on sexuality doesn’t solve the societal issues.

[Lighthouse]

TBH this debate always just ends up the same. Somebody argues that gender is different to sex, it’s how you chose to identify socially, but then refuses to give a definition of a woman or any of the criteria which define them in society. Nobody will commit to explaining in any detail what it is they mean, because they know if they did the feminists would go absolutely bananas about your opinions on how a woman should behave in society.

The other major problem with this line of thinking is that you’ve completely denied the existence of LGB people. Under these rules of social gender, the vast majority of the population - LGB or straight - is a non-binary pansexual.

[egg]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

TBH this debate always just ends up the same. Somebody argues that gender is different to sex, it’s how you chose to identify socially, but then refuses to give a definition of a woman or any of the criteria which define them in society. Nobody will commit to explaining in any detail what it is they mean, because they know if they did the feminists would go absolutely bananas about your opinions on how a woman should behave in society.

The other major problem with this line of thinking is that you’ve completely denied the existence of LGB people. Under these rules of social gender, the vast majority of the population - LGB or straight - is a non-binary pansexual.

TBH, you have a very blinkered view and clearly regard your opinion as the only correct one. That makes debate impossible. I CBA to get into it with you, but it seems that having conflated gender and sex, you've now added sexuality to that mess of conflation. 

[Lighthouse]

22 minutes ago, egg said:

TBH, you have a very blinkered view and clearly regard your opinion as the only correct one. That makes debate impossible. I CBA to get into it with you, but it seems that having conflated gender and sex, you've now added sexuality to that mess of conflation. 

I don’t know whether this discussion is amusing or tedious now, but I’m just going to leave it. I’ve literally asked you many times to tell me what it is you expect people to believe, what a woman is and give me, let’s say three examples, of what constitutes female behaviour in society. You both either can’t or won’t, you just repeatedly tell me what it’s not and what it’s obviously different from and that there’s, ‘plenty of information out there to go and find out for yourself’. 

I’m not conflating sexuality with anything, just pointing out that if you believe a person can choose their gender, all sexuality is null and void. If a person you are attracted to can choose to identify as any gender, you do not have a sexuality. That’s the point.

[The Kraken]

37 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I don’t know whether this discussion is amusing or tedious now, but I’m just going to leave it. I’ve literally asked you many times to tell me what it is you expect people to believe, what a woman is and give me, let’s say three examples, of what constitutes female behaviour in society. You both either can’t or won’t, you just repeatedly tell me what it’s not and what it’s obviously different from and that there’s, ‘plenty of information out there to go and find out for yourself’.

There is plenty of information out there though, and that should absolutely be your starting point rather than asking someone on a football forum what their personal interpretation of what a woman is. Your question is pretty much irrelevant.  When experts in their field like theWorld Health Organisation tell me that there’s a difference between gender and sex, I tend to sit up and listen to them rather rather than people like Lighthouse from the internet who say there isn’t, and that it’s sinister to suggest such a thing. When countless other experts in their field reinforce the fact that sex is biological, gender is sociological, I listen to that too. When those same experts tell me that gender has been fluid for centuries across the globe with multiple examples, again I endeavour to learn more about why it goes against the flawed concept of sex=gender.

That’s the point. It doesn’t answer any of the more important questions like how we go forward from here, but at it at least frames the starting point. 

[whelk]

18 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

There is plenty of information out there though, and that should absolutely be your starting point rather than asking someone on a football forum what their personal interpretation of what a woman is. Your question is pretty much irrelevant.  When experts in their field like theWorld Health Organisation tell me that there’s a difference between gender and sex, I tend to sit up and listen to them rather rather than people like Lighthouse from the internet who say there isn’t, and that it’s sinister to suggest such a thing. When countless other experts in their field reinforce the fact that sex is biological, gender is sociological, I listen to that too. When those same experts tell me that gender has been fluid for centuries across the globe with multiple examples, again I endeavour to learn more about why it goes against the flawed concept of sex=gender.

That’s the point. It doesn’t answer any of the more important questions like how we go forward from here, but at it at least frames the starting point. 

So all the experts agree? Or Kraken’s experts trump all others

[The Kraken]

Just now, whelk said:

So all the experts agree? Or Kraken’s experts trump all others

If you want to put forward the opinions of experts who say that sex=gender I’m more than happy to look at those arguments. 

[Lighthouse]

7 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

If you want to put forward the opinions of experts who say that sex=gender I’m more than happy to look at those arguments. 

I’ll tell you what, you can have genders. I completely surrender the word gender, you can have it to mean whatever you want it to mean, I will simply say that I don’t believe in genders, the same as I don’t believe in gods, religions, the supernatural, astrology or homeopathy.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

I’ll tell you what, you can have genders. I completely surrender the word gender, you can have it to mean whatever you want it to mean, I will simply say that I don’t believe in genders, the same as I don’t believe in gods, religions, the supernatural, astrology or homeopathy.

what about children, do you believe children are our future?

[The Kraken]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

I’ll tell you what, you can have genders. I completely surrender the word gender, you can have it to mean whatever you want it to mean, I will simply say that I don’t believe in genders, the same as I don’t believe in gods, religions, the supernatural, astrology or homeopathy.

And that’s fine. No one should be asking you to nod along, it’s an extremely complex scenario with no easy answers. In fact I often find it difficult to get onboard with myself; I want to accept everybody’s wishes to live their life how they want. But that comes with limits, especially when it impinges on the rights, risks and vulnerabilities of biological women, whose opinions are the most important on this rather than a bunch of men on a football forum. I just think it’s important to get the basics right.

[The Kraken]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

what about children, do you believe children are our future?

Treat them well, they can lead the way.

[Lighthouse]

12 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

And that’s fine. No one should be asking you to nod along, it’s an extremely complex scenario with no easy answers. In fact I often find it difficult to get onboard with myself; I want to accept everybody’s wishes to live their life how they want. But that comes with limits, especially when it impinges on the rights, risks and vulnerabilities of biological women, whose opinions are the most important on this rather than a bunch of men on a football forum. I just think it’s important to get the basics right.

Fair play I respect that.

15 minutes ago, Turkish said:

what about children, do you believe children are our future?

No, you’re thinking of garlic bread.

[badgerx16]

34 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

No, you’re thinking of garlic bread.

Not cheesecake ?

[egg]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Not cheesecake ?

...it's an of you know, you know, thing. 

[badgerx16]

 

[Turkish]

Junior schools doing transition days FFS. Even got a transition page. I’ve seen it all now 🤦‍♂️

Edited 6 August, 2023 by Turkish

[Picard]

A third of Britons don’t know that transgender women were born male

Is that a good or bad thing?

[ashnats]

On 06/08/2023 at 19:21, Turkish said:

Junior schools doing transition days FFS. Even got a transition page. I’ve seen it all now 🤦‍♂️

Don't let the pompey lot see this or they'll be down there with their pitchforks. 

[Turkish]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cv-fPd5AuIH/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==
 

 

[AlexLaw76]

[ashnats]

5 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Obviously. Is there a contrary view? Surely noone thinks period poverty wouldn't affect trans-men?

[Turkish]

They’re not happy with Jordan Henderson

wonder how many we will see turning their backs on him?

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/jordan-henderson-gareth-southgate-england-lgbt-saudi-arabia-b2402948.html

 

[whelk]

“Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

“Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

Southgate was a bit of a stuttering prick in his interview when asked about it. He's obviously not going to condemn his own players but just goes to show how shallow all those nonsense they come out with is when the coins involved.