LGBT+ Discussion

[hypochondriac]

48 minutes ago, ashnats said:

So what's your solution? Genital checks at the door? What stops a male predator just identifying as a trans man if you enforce single sex facilities? Far easier than dressing up as a woman and taking hormones.

Have you ever made any trans friends or had a conversation with a trans person? They are actually human beings. if there are any kiddyfiddlers on this site, I'd put money on them being antiwoke boomers, not part of the rainbow crowd.

It's about enforcing a social stigma. If you've got a penis and you're changing in the women's changing rooms then you should feel shame and be wary in case you're openly challenged and told to leave. Yes there maybe some borderline cases but that's better than some situations now where blokes in a dress are openly intimidating women. 

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Or she just might not want to be stared at, harassed or assaulted.

So because they don't want to be stared at they're happy to go and intimidate and potentially upset women in a women only space? Biological men should understand who and what they are and stay out of women's spaces. That might mean that they experience a bit of discomfort when changing with other biological men but that doesn't mean they can just override women's rights. 

[aintforever]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Obviously it wouldn't be on your list of priorities but then you're a man and probably not a father to a young girl I would assume. 

I’ve got a 9 year old daughter and we go swimming regularly. I’ve never once been worried about chicks with dicks.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I’ve got a 9 year old daughter and we go swimming regularly. I’ve never once been worried about chicks with dicks.

So let's imagine she's a little bit older, she's changing or showering in a public swimming pool and a man walks in and starts changing. You're not fussed? Even if it intimidates or upsets her. 

[SotonianWill]

5 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I’ve got a 9 year old daughter and we go swimming regularly. I’ve never once been worried about chicks with dicks.

that simply means you have a more idealistic liberal view on life. Contrary to your opinion however, is the majority of people who believe in realism. If my sister was in the changing rooms with a woman with a penis I wouldn’t be very happy with that. It is a danger and to act like it isn’t would be stupid.

Can you answer this please - I know there are mixed changing rooms, but what is the reason for differing changing rooms for opposing sexes? 

Edited 27 June, 2023 by SotonianWill

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, SotonianWill said:

that simply means you have a more idealistic liberal view on life. Contrary to your opinion however, is the majority of people who believe in realism. If my sister was in the changing rooms with a woman with a penis I wouldn’t be very happy with that. It is a danger and to act like it isn’t would be stupid.

Can you answer this please - I know there are mixed changing rooms, but what is the reason for differing changing rooms for opposing sexes? 

There's no such thing as a woman with a penis. 

[aintforever]

1 minute ago, SotonianWill said:

that simply means you have a more idealistic liberal view on life. Contrary to your opinion however, is the majority of people who believe in realism. If my sister was in the changing rooms with a woman with a penis I wouldn’t be very happy with that. It is a danger and to act like it isn’t would be stupid.

Can you answer this please - I know there are mixed changing rooms, but what is the reason for differing changing rooms for opposing sexes in your opinion? 

I never said there were not issues, there obviously are but I just would not class them as serious issues. Climate change, the cost of living and the state of the NHS are serious issues. Sexual predators in changing room of either sex are a bigger issue than chicks with dicks IMO.

[whelk]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

There's no such thing as a woman with a penis. 

I bet you are the sort of old fashioned person who doesn’t  think blokes can give birth?

[aintforever]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

There's no such thing as a woman with a penis. 

Well done, I bet you passed GCSE biology didn’t you?

[Weston Super Saint]

42 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Or she just might not want to be stared at, harassed or assaulted.

Wait for a cubicle?

[hypochondriac]

21 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I never said there were not issues, there obviously are but I just would not class them as serious issues. Climate change, the cost of living and the state of the NHS are serious issues. Sexual predators in changing room of either sex are a bigger issue than chicks with dicks IMO.

Disability access isn't a huge issue for me but I can imagine it would be a massive issue for some. Just because it doesn't affect me doesn't mean I think that nothing should be done about it. 

[Turkish]

21 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I never said there were not issues, there obviously are but I just would not class them as serious issues. Climate change, the cost of living and the state of the NHS are serious issues. Sexual predators in changing room of either sex are a bigger issue than chicks with dicks IMO.

fuck me you've missed the point yet again. 

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Wait for a cubicle?

Or get changed in the disabled loos or something if it bothers you that much? Women shouldn't have to acquiesce and alter their lives in order to appease the feeling of a few men in dresses. If its no big deal as aintforever says then it shouldn't be a problem to simply clarify the law. If you've got a dick then you can't enter. 

[hypochondriac]

33 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So let's imagine she's a little bit older, she's changing or showering in a public swimming pool and a man walks in and starts changing. You're not fussed? Even if it intimidates or upsets her. 

Would be good to get an answer to this @aintforever

Edited 27 June, 2023 by hypochondriac

[Turkish]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Wouldn't be good to get an answer to this @aintforever

He never does, this is his MO. He does this over and over again. Wades into a topic, very quickly confuses himself then tries to pretend he's making some vague point when he's been left behind, doing it again here making its just all about chicks with dicks being the issue, when it's a lot more complex than that.

[CB Fry]

33 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I never said there were not issues, there obviously are but I just would not class them as serious issues. Climate change, the cost of living and the state of the NHS are serious issues. Sexual predators in changing room of either sex are a bigger issue than chicks with dicks IMO.

I can see why you lost that job as a call handler on the Rape Victim Support Line.

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

There's no such thing as a woman with a penis. 

John Wayne Bobbit's wife.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Well done, I bet you passed GCSE biology didn’t you?

The fact that his rebuttal is based on simple, year 9 biology is a poor reflection of your argument, not his. It also raises one of the most tedious and frustrating elements of this debate; the continuous and deliberately engineered ambiguity of words like ‘gender’ and ‘woman’. The same people will simultaneously argue that, "trans women are women - end of!" And then roll their eyes and say, "obviously gender identity is different from biological sex," a minute later. You can’t keep moving the goalposts any time someone shoots.

[The Kraken]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

I’ve got a 9 year old daughter and we go swimming regularly. I’ve never once been worried about chicks with dicks.

That’s quite a male dominated opinion. Which is the much, much easier side of the fence to sit on. Males aren’t really at threat from any of this.

That said, male opinion is the whole potential problem here. It’s not for men, or transitioning/transitioned men, to dictate how women should feel in women-only safe spaces. There’s already been some examples of males falsely playing the trans card to quite horrible consequences in Scottish women’s prisons. It’s a system that’s open to abuse, and your simple male solution is “I don’t have a problem with it”. It’s not for men to decide what the problem is, it’s for biological women.

For men, this is quite a simple remedy. For women there kind of absolutely isn’t and there’s an entire rabbit hole to go down whereby this type of things affects much more than toilets: towards the top end, women only rape and crisis centres, and trans women who are actually sexual predators occupying women’s safe spaces , plus many many others. The system as it is entirely ripe for abuse and evidence over the past year or two which shows us that biological males are already indeed exploiting it.  It’s not for men to say what is and should be safe, it’s for women for tell us how they feel vulnerable. As a bloke I don’t see I should have much opinion on this subject other than to thoroughly listen to the fears of women and go from there. Saying “I don’t have a problem with it” or “there’s more things to worry about kind of misses the point. And it’s an extremely complicated area to cover that isn’t going to be done by offering one or two sentence answers.

Edited 27 June, 2023 by The Kraken

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

He never does, this is his MO. He does this over and over again. Wades into a topic, very quickly confuses himself then tries to pretend he's making some vague point when he's been left behind, doing it again here making its just all about chicks with dicks being the issue, when it's a lot more complex than that.

Looks like you're right. More fool me for thinking we'd have a semi sensible discussion. 

[Fan The Flames]

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

There's no such thing as a woman with a penis. 

You might not like it but there is. A man can get a Gender Recognition Certificate, changing his gender without chopping his bits off. So legally you can be a woman with a penis.

This whole area is full of people hiding behind semantics, yes a man can be a woman, if that's what they want to indentity as. But they can never be a person who was born a woman. Thats the semantics of it.

Everything would be fine if it wasn't for the deep complications in all the everyday life stuff. It feels to me that if you still have a penis you shouldn't be allowed to go into women only spaces. A line needs to be drawn and that seems the fairest place.

We need practical solutions, not just people shouting 'I'm a women' 'you're not a women' at each other.

[aintforever]

5 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

We need practical solutions, not just people shouting 'I'm a women' 'you're not a women' at each other.

This.

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

You might not like it but there is. A man can get a Gender Recognition Certificate, changing his gender without chopping his bits off. So legally you can be a woman with a penis.

This whole area is full of people hiding behind semantics, yes a man can be a woman, if that's what they want to indentity as. But they can never be a person who was born a woman. Thats the semantics of it.

Everything would be fine if it wasn't for the deep complications in all the everyday life stuff. It feels to me that if you still have a penis you shouldn't be allowed to go into women only spaces. A line needs to be drawn and that seems the fairest place.

We need practical solutions, not just people shouting 'I'm a women' 'you're not a women' at each other.

No a man can't be a woman. There's no semantic or linguistic tricks. A woman is an adult human female. You can hold any piece of paper you like but it doesn't suddenly make you a woman. Men with mental health issues need support and possibly therapy not operation to chop off their genetalia. The practical solution is men not invading women's spaces. 

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, aintforever said:

This.

I noticed you have ignored my previous post about your daughter. You may have missed it so thought I'd double check. 

[aintforever]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I noticed you have ignored my previous post about your daughter. You may have missed it so thought I'd double check. 

I answered the fella below who made the same point about changing rooms. I’ve got better things to do than spend all night repeating myself on here. There are obviously issues but I don’t think it’s as serious as the Daily Mail and the like make out. There must be practical solutions that can keep women feeling safe without demonising an already marginalised group of people. Trans women have as much right to feel comfortable and safe as women IMO.

[Lighthouse]

29 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

You might not like it but there is. A man can get a Gender Recognition Certificate, changing his gender without chopping his bits off. So legally you can be a woman with a penis.

All you’ve done there is taken away the only factual definition of the word ‘woman’ and so are left with an empty shell of word. It sort of sounds plausible because the word comes with the comfort blanket of familiarity but really ‘woman’ has no definition at all in that context.

To elaborate on that, let’s remove that familiarity and replace the words we know with made up words. I can say a ‘zoog’ is a person born with testicles, a ‘queb’ is a person born with ovaries and the difference between them is called ‘ziggle’. The definitions still hold water as those truths will always be true and a baby growing up with those words will understand exactly what they mean. I can see ‘ziggle’ on an application for, write ‘zoog’ and everyone is perfectly clear on what that implies.

If, on the other hand, you say that someone can choose to identify as whatever ‘agori’ they choose, my chosen agori is a ‘bilto’ and a bilto is anyone who chooses to identify as a bilto, that’s all just meaningless gobbledygook. A salad of words with no actual definition, just words identifying as themselves.

All of which just leads us back to Hitchens’ Razor and the short answer; you don’t actually have any argument.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

I answered the fella below who made the same point about changing rooms. I’ve got better things to do than spend all night repeating myself on here. There are obviously issues but I don’t think it’s as serious as the Daily Mail and the like make out. There must be practical solutions that can keep women feeling safe without demonising an already marginalised group of people. Trans women have as much right to feel comfortable and safe as women IMO.

So you didn't answer it then which is a shame. I assume because you didn't answer it it's because you would have had to have admitted that a man in the woman's changing room when your daughter is changing or showering would actually bother you. That's fine, it would bother me as while so you can see why it would potentially be a rather big deal for a female. 

The truth is that there is no practical solution that allows men into female spaces. The only a tually solution is to not allow that to happen or if that is impossible, to make it so socially unacceptable that it reduces the likelihood of it happening and women feel empowered to confront a man if they for example encountered them changing where they should be. 

 

Your final sentence is just absurd. By that logic, I could say that I feel comfortable walking around with no clothes on in public. Not being able to do that is distressing to me and I have as much right to feel comfortable and safe doing this as anyone else so you have to allow me to do it. No man has the right to violate women's spaces for their own comfort and perceived safety. 

[Fan The Flames]

8 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

No a man can't be a woman. There's no semantic or linguistic tricks. A woman is an adult human female. You can hold any piece of paper you like but it doesn't suddenly make you a woman. Men with mental health issues need support and possibly therapy not operation to chop off their genetalia. The practical solution is men not invading women's spaces. 

 

7 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

All you’ve done there is taken away the only factual definition of the word ‘woman’ and so are left with an empty shell of word. It sort of sounds plausible because the word comes with the comfort blanket of familiarity but really ‘woman’ has no definition at all in that context.

To elaborate on that, let’s remove that familiarity and replace the words we know with made up words. I can say a ‘zoog’ is a person born with testicles, a ‘queb’ is a person born with ovaries and the difference between them is called ‘ziggle’. The definitions still hold water as those truths will always be true and a baby growing up with those words will understand exactly what they mean. I can see ‘ziggle’ on an application for, write ‘zoog’ and everyone is perfectly clear on what that implies.

If, on the other hand, you say that someone can choose to identify as whatever ‘agori’ they choose, my chosen agori is a ‘bilto’ and a bilto is anyone who chooses to identify as a bilto, that’s all just meaningless gobbledygook. A salad of words with no actual definition, just words identifying as themselves.

All of which just leads us back to Hitchens’ Razor and the short answer; you don’t actually have any argument.

I've done nothing but quote the law.

I'm afraid there is nothing you can do about someone wanted to identify as the opposite gender, it's their life. But you can influence how it works practically. If you get out of your semantic rabbit holes.

But I think there are people on both sides that just like shouting at each other. And the right love this stuff because they see it as a crack in the progressive way, so they are incentivise to keep shouting. But being progressive means maximising rights for all, including those rights already hard won, like womans right to safe spaces. So as I say, you can argue about the meanings of words until the cows and bulls come home, or you can try and find a way forward.

[Weston Super Saint]

8 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

 

I've done nothing but quote the law.

I'm afraid there is nothing you can do about someone wanted to identify as the opposite gender, it's their life. But you can influence how it works practically. If you get out of your semantic rabbit holes.

But I think there are people on both sides that just like shouting at each other. And the right love this stuff because they see it as a crack in the progressive way, so they are incentivise to keep shouting. But being progressive means maximising rights for all, including those rights already hard won, like womans right to safe spaces. So as I say, you can argue about the meanings of words until the cows and bulls come home, or you can try and find a way forward.

The only logical way forward is to create an alternative space - Women's spaces, Men's spaces and 'third' spaces.  Doesn't seem particularly inclusive but solves the issue of women's safety and security as well as trans safety and security in Men's spaces.  I guess the problems will then move to which identifiers are permitted to use the 'third' spaces and should fourth and fifth spaces be created?

 

[Fan The Flames]

9 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

The only logical way forward is to create an alternative space - Women's spaces, Men's spaces and 'third' spaces.  Doesn't seem particularly inclusive but solves the issue of women's safety and security as well as trans safety and security in Men's spaces.  I guess the problems will then move to which identifiers are permitted to use the 'third' spaces and should fourth and fifth spaces be created?

 

Could be. My old hospital put in gender neutral toilets, rooms straight off the corridor with single toilet and wash hand basin. It wasn't done for some woke agenda, it was cheaper to just put one toilet in and better for managing legionella risk.

[buctootim]

12 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

No a man can't be a woman. There's no semantic or linguistic tricks. A woman is an adult human female. 

As always you have an absolutist, simplistic and ill informed view of the world.

It's perfectly possible to be genetically one sex but to have the genitals of the opposite. It's also possible to have gender dysphoria, 'feeling' you are in the wrong body, probably due to levels on testosterone in the mothers body during 8-16 weeks of pregnancy when gender identityy and sexual orientation seems to be set. It's also possible to be mentally ill, or to be a temporarily confused teenager or simply wanting attention similar to Munchausens. All of those things are different with different solutions -not fixed by one size fits all,  flat ill informed comments.      

 

 

 

Edited 28 June, 2023 by buctootim

[buctootim]

3 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

Could be. My old hospital put in gender neutral toilets, rooms straight off the corridor with single toilet and wash hand basin. It wasn't done for some woke agenda, it was cheaper to just put one toilet in and better for managing legionella risk.

Exactly. Same with trains, disabled toilets, small cafes / bars etc.  

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, buctootim said:

As always you have an absolutist, simplistic and ill informed view of the world.

It's perfectly possible to be genetically one sex but to have the genitals of the opposite. It's also possible to have gender dysphoria, 'feeling' you are in the wrong body, probably due to levels on testosterone in the mothers body during 8-16 weeks of pregnancy when gender identityy and sexual orientation seems to be set. It's also possible to be mentally ill, or to be a temporarily confused teenager or simply wanting attention similar to Munchausens. All of those things are different with different solutions -not fixed by one size fits all,  flat ill informed comments.      

 

 

 

Intersex isn't a new sex, it's a sexual disorder. In the same way if I chopped off my hand I wouldn't suddenly become a new type of human. I haven't disputed the existence of gender disphoria. As you describe it, it's an incongruence between the reality and how you feel (so it's a mental disorder.) In a similar fashion, anorexics feel obese when they are in fact the opposite. A caring society offers them therapy and treatment which doesn't encourage them to starve themselves.

The slides you link define gender identity as an "inner sense of maleness/femaleness" could you tell me what that means please? 

 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, buctootim said:

Exactly. Same with trains, disabled toilets, small cafes / bars etc.  

What should happen in places where this solution cannot be accomplished? 

[benjii]

15 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

You might not like it but there is. A man can get a Gender Recognition Certificate, changing his gender without chopping his bits off. So legally you can be a woman with a penis.

This whole area is full of people hiding behind semantics, yes a man can be a woman, if that's what they want to indentity as. But they can never be a person who was born a woman. Thats the semantics of it.

Everything would be fine if it wasn't for the deep complications in all the everyday life stuff. It feels to me that if you still have a penis you shouldn't be allowed to go into women only spaces. A line needs to be drawn and that seems the fairest place.

We need practical solutions, not just people shouting 'I'm a women' 'you're not a women' at each other.

You want to draw a line on ladyboys' dixons?

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

What should happen in places where this solution cannot be accomplished? 

I think the penis rule works until we can sort this out. People with penises that door, people without penises the other door. Get some new names for the rooms and new designs for the door signs.

[AlexLaw76]

5 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I think the penis rule works until we can sort this out. People with penises that door, people without penises the other door. Get some new names for the rooms and new designs for the door signs.

Happy to discriminate then.  Good to know

[hypochondriac]

13 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I think the penis rule works until we can sort this out. People with penises that door, people without penises the other door. Get some new names for the rooms and new designs for the door signs.

What about intimate care in hospitals and care homes? If a woman requests to be cared for by another woman, should that request be respected? 

[badgerx16]

15 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Happy to discriminate then.  Good to know

What would your solution be ?

[whelk]

30 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I think the penis rule works until we can sort this out. People with penises that door, people without penises the other door. Get some new names for the rooms and new designs for the door signs.

What if you only have a tiny penis? Asking for a friend

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

I think the penis rule works until we can sort this out. People with penises that door, people without penises the other door. Get some new names for the rooms and new designs for the door signs.

In other words, a woman has to accept a man being able to see her naked, on the proviso that he’s had his genitals surgically mutilated. The only fair line in this is proven biological facts, you cannot subject people to laws written loosely around other people’s feelings.

[aintforever]

19 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

In other words, a woman has to accept a man being able to see her naked, on the proviso that he’s had his genitals surgically mutilated. The only fair line in this is proven biological facts, you cannot subject people to laws written loosely around other people’s feelings.

Or a man has to accept a woman might see him naked too by that rationalle.

It's obviously a difficult issue to solve but transexual men and women have always used different changing rooms - if you don't want someone to see your junk use a cubicle - that applies just as much to someone of the same sex as you as someone who may be trans.  

When was the last time you were forced to strip naked in front of someone else?

[buctootim]

30 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

a man being able to see her naked, on the proviso that he’s had his genitals surgically mutilated. 

If she's really fit it might be worth it. 

[Fan The Flames]

59 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

In other words, a woman has to accept a man being able to see her naked, on the proviso that he’s had his genitals surgically mutilated. The only fair line in this is proven biological facts, you cannot subject people to laws written loosely around other people’s feelings.

You are being a drama king now. But yeah I think they would have earnt the right to use women spaces.

Anyway when do we get naked in front of others. When I played in a football team in my 20s, we got changed in shitty changing rooms and when I was a member of an expensive gym, but even then you can use a cubicle if you wanted.

When do women get naked infront of each other?

 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

What if you only have a tiny penis? Asking for a friend

Use the tiny door  

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

You are being a drama king now. But yeah I think they would have earnt the right to use women spaces.

Anyway when do we get naked in front of others. When I played in a football team in my 20s, we got changed in shitty changing rooms and when I was a member of an expensive gym, but even then you can use a cubicle if you wanted.

When do women get naked infront of each other?

 

In real life or on the computer?

[Fan The Flames]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

What about intimate care in hospitals and care homes? If a woman requests to be cared for by another woman, should that request be respected? 

That's currently how it is now isn't it. My daughter works with a male midwife and women can refuse to have him. Although they are happy to have a make gynecologist 

[Lighthouse]

26 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Or a man has to accept a woman might see him naked too by that rationalle.

It's obviously a difficult issue to solve but transexual men and women have always used different changing rooms - if you don't want someone to see your junk use a cubicle - that applies just as much to someone of the same sex as you as someone who may be trans.  

When was the last time you were forced to strip naked in front of someone else?

Yesterday at the gym. It’s a communal changing room with no individual cubicles, only benches and lockers.

 

TBH it’s all besides the point and deflects from the core issue: There are places which are designated as separate for women for their own protection, which you cannot simply ‘identify’ your way into.

5 hours ago, buctootim said:

As always you have an absolutist, simplistic and ill informed view of the world.

It's perfectly possible to be genetically one sex but to have the genitals of the opposite. It's also possible to have gender dysphoria, 'feeling' you are in the wrong body, probably due to levels on testosterone in the mothers body during 8-16 weeks of pregnancy when gender identityy and sexual orientation seems to be set. It's also possible to be mentally ill, or to be a temporarily confused teenager or simply wanting attention similar to Munchausens. All of those things are different with different solutions -not fixed by one size fits all,  flat ill informed comments.      

 

 

 

Intersexuality is a completely different issue though. I don’t think anyone is doubting that there are people with genetic and hormonal abnormalities affecting their genitals and body development. It’s like trying to argue that a blonde Scandinavian man can chose to become a black Nigerian man, because Arabic, Hispanic, Germanic etc. exist in between.

 

As you alluded to, it’s a serious mental health problem, but I can’t think of any other similar issues which are dealt with quite so bizarrely as this. If a young woman is anorexic we don’t have surgery to remove a couple of her ribs and throw a skinny pride rally. If a paranoid schizophrenic hears voices, we don’t call other people bigots for says that demons don’t exist. To that regard I find this whole thing rather bemusing. I think history will look back on this like the exorcisms of schizophrenics and epileptics of centuries gone by.

[hypochondriac]

24 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

That's currently how it is now isn't it. My daughter works with a male midwife and women can refuse to have him. Although they are happy to have a make gynecologist 

No it isn't. Recent NHS guidance has said that it is probably discriminatory to honour a request for same sex care if there is no clinical merit. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/11/new-nhs-guidance-could-prevent-same-sex-care-for-women

[hypochondriac]

37 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

You are being a drama king now. But yeah I think they would have earnt the right to use women spaces.

Anyway when do we get naked in front of others. When I played in a football team in my 20s, we got changed in shitty changing rooms and when I was a member of an expensive gym, but even then you can use a cubicle if you wanted.

When do women get naked infront of each other?

 

Earnt the right? I think that's maybe something we should allow women to decide shouldn't we? Given that they're the ones who are taking on the risk, potential embarrassment or other normal feelings they may have in the presence of a man. I wouldn't want a middle aged man changing next to my young teenage daughter, whether he's mutilated himself or not.

Regarding changing rooms, one example relevant to Southampton is Shirley swimming pool. I would certainly object if a man tried to get changed in there in close proximity to my daughter. Any normal father would do. 

Edited 28 June, 2023 by hypochondriac