LGBT+ Discussion

[Weston Super Saint]

19 hours ago, aintforever said:

To be fair I expect all the fuss about the armbands has got their point across better than if they had just worn the things.

I imagine the Qatari's are re-writing their Sharia Law books as I type.

[The Kraken]

21 hours ago, aintforever said:

To be fair I expect all the fuss about the armbands has got their point across better than if they had just worn the things.

Doubtful.  It’s created a media storm in some European countries who already agree with the armband but, in reality (and as pundits like Roy Keane and Ian Wright agree) all it has shown is that footballers have morals right up to the point where they might have to risk something, then it’s all about self preservation. I imagine Qatar and FIFA are patting themselves on the back about how well they suppressed it all. Infantino cares about the issue so much that he spent an hour long press conference shilling for the Qatari point of view.

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I imagine the Qatari's are re-writing their Sharia Law books as I type.

Obviously it’s not going to change much with the current regime but younger, more impressionable Qataris might just realise there’s more to life than very conservative Islam. I have some personal experience of Saudi Arabia and whilst they still have a long way to go as a country, there are signs of a shift culturally. Countries in that region have realised that selling oil and religious dogma just doesn’t cut it in 2022 and they have to move with the times or face a popular uprising. There are already signs of that in Iran, where women are getting rather annoyed at being made to feel shame for their own hair because it says so in 9th century scripture.

 

If nothing else I’m just glad that they’re protesting against an actual law which can actually be changed, rather than against something vague and conceptual, like with all the knee/racism stuff.

[Weston Super Saint]

Rainbow laces would solve it, haven't seen anyone with the cajones though.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

Obviously it’s not going to change much with the current regime but younger, more impressionable Qataris might just realise there’s more to life than very conservative Islam. I have some personal experience of Saudi Arabia and whilst they still have a long way to go as a country, there are signs of a shift culturally. Countries in that region have realised that selling oil and religious dogma just doesn’t cut it in 2022 and they have to move with the times or face a popular uprising. There are already signs of that in Iran, where women are getting rather annoyed at being made to feel shame for their own hair because it says so in 9th century scripture.

 

If nothing else I’m just glad that they’re protesting against an actual law which can actually be changed, rather than against something vague and conceptual, like with all the knee/racism stuff.

We all know Muslims are quite relaxed about their faith and open to changing their beliefs to move with a times so if a few youngsters want to get on the beers and be gay I’m sure the clerics will just let them crack on, especially if they stick a rainbow armband on.

Edited 23 November, 2022 by Turkish

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Obviously it’s not going to change much with the current regime but younger, more impressionable Qataris might just realise there’s more to life than very conservative Islam. I have some personal experience of Saudi Arabia and whilst they still have a long way to go as a country, there are signs of a shift culturally. Countries in that region have realised that selling oil and religious dogma just doesn’t cut it in 2022 and they have to move with the times or face a popular uprising. There are already signs of that in Iran, where women are getting rather annoyed at being made to feel shame for their own hair because it says so in 9th century scripture.

 

Of course, the flipside is that they have adhered to the same 'laws' for over a thousand years, so change is likely to be glacial at best.

[egg]

10 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Obviously it’s not going to change much with the current regime but younger, more impressionable Qataris might just realise there’s more to life than very conservative Islam. I have some personal experience of Saudi Arabia and whilst they still have a long way to go as a country, there are signs of a shift culturally. Countries in that region have realised that selling oil and religious dogma just doesn’t cut it in 2022 and they have to move with the times or face a popular uprising. There are already signs of that in Iran, where women are getting rather annoyed at being made to feel shame for their own hair because it says so in 9th century scripture.

 

If nothing else I’m just glad that they’re protesting against an actual law which can actually be changed, rather than against something vague and conceptual, like with all the knee/racism stuff.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with the west though. Non islamic countries need to stop instilling their will on the people of islamic countries. If the people of those countries rise up, cool, but it's not for us to instigate or encourage it. As crazy as Infantino came across the other day, his point that people who'd lived in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, was right. I mean, the leaders of the free world have just rewound the clock on women's right to abortion, and many states hardly have a liberal attitude on homosexuality - who are they to express moral outrage? 

[Fan The Flames]

11 hours ago, The Kraken said:

Doubtful.  It’s created a media storm in some European countries who already agree with the armband but, in reality (and as pundits like Roy Keane and Ian Wright agree) all it has shown is that footballers have morals right up to the point where they might have to risk something, then it’s all about self preservation. I imagine Qatar and FIFA are patting themselves on the back about how well they suppressed it all. Infantino cares about the issue so much that he spent an hour long press conference shilling for the Qatari point of view.

I do think people are being a bit harsh on the footballers, imagine the backlash if Kane got a yellow for the armband and then another for a late tackle in the 10th minute. They are walking a tight rope between sets of fans who want them to show solidarity and those that don't want anything to do with it. They have to represent all.

[Lighthouse]

5 hours ago, egg said:

Non islamic countries need to stop instilling their will on the people of islamic countries

But the very thing people are protesting about is non-homosexuals instilling their will on homosexuals. Nobody is trying to take Islam from them, you can still live according to strict Sharia law if that’s your choosing. The whole argument is that people who don’t believe in this medieval belief system shouldn’t have to live by it. 

[Turkish]

9 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

But the very thing people are protesting about is non-homosexuals instilling their will on homosexuals. Nobody is trying to take Islam from them, you can still live according to strict Sharia law if that’s your choosing. The whole argument is that people who don’t believe in this medieval belief system shouldn’t have to live by it. 

Aren't homosexuals and others trying to instil their will on non homosexuals who do live by those belief systems then?

would a gay person walk into a mosque in the UK and expect to be welcomed changing the law of islam for them?

Edited 24 November, 2022 by Turkish

[Lighthouse]

59 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Aren't homosexuals and others trying to instil their will on non homosexuals who do live by those belief systems then?

would a gay person walk into a mosque in the UK and expect to be welcomed changing the law of islam for them?

No, not in any way, what a bizarre thing to try and argue.

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

No, not in any way, what a bizarre thing to try and argue.

What do you think the wearing of armbands, rainbow hats etc is trying to achieve then?

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

But the very thing people are protesting about is non-homosexuals instilling their will on homosexuals. Nobody is trying to take Islam from them, you can still live according to strict Sharia law if that’s your choosing. The whole argument is that people who don’t believe in this medieval belief system shouldn’t have to live by it. 

Aren't they instilling their will (AKA enforcing their laws) in their own country?  The protests are about countries who live according to strict Sharia law not allowing homosexuality.  Seems as daft as me protesting that my local pub refuses to allow 12 year olds to be served alcohol.

[Lighthouse]

People are imposing their own personal beliefs on the entire country, on penalty of death in some cases. I can’t put it any more simply than that. If you’re having trouble differentiating between a same sex relationship and 12 year olds underaged drinking, I can’t help you.

[Turkish]

9 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

People are imposing their own personal beliefs on the entire country, on penalty of death in some cases. I can’t put it any more simply than that. If you’re having trouble differentiating between a same sex relationship and 12 year olds underaged drinking, I can’t help you.

if a gay person wanted to become a muslim should muslims change their entire belief system to allow that person to join the faith?

[tajjuk]

8 hours ago, egg said:

It's got absolutely nothing to do with the west though. Non islamic countries need to stop instilling their will on the people of islamic countries. If the people of those countries rise up, cool, but it's not for us to instigate or encourage it. As crazy as Infantino came across the other day, his point that people who'd lived in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, was right. I mean, the leaders of the free world have just rewound the clock on women's right to abortion, and many states hardly have a liberal attitude on homosexuality - who are they to express moral outrage? 

What a categorically dumb argument. It's not our 'will', its their law being forced on other people and forcing people to accept their outdated views, all of which entrenched in fundamentalist religious dogma. It is saying that something people do not have a choice over should not happen and should be illegal. Making homosexuality illegal is akin to Arabic countries banning people for being white or being tall. 

All those countries are doing is speaking out against a disgusting law that should not exist anywhere in the world, its a fundamental human right, there is no argument here.

The Qatari regime and anyone who supports that law are wrong and that should be pointed out at any opportunity.

Also if you don't want your country scrutinised, don't bid for the World Cup and invite the entire world to look at your country. I mean they only did this to sportswash their awful regime and turns out it hasn't worked, it's just highlighted how awful they are. 

Infantino's hypocrisy argument was also spectacularly dumb on so many levels. Is being gay illegal in any of the countries that have called Qatar out on it? No, so there is no hypocrisy. 

I mean he hilariously basically said that if a country had done bad stuff in the past it basically rules them out from commenting on bad things happening now in other countries, that is so stupid you have to wonder how the man who uttered it got to such a profile position.  We (the UK) basically created slavery, but we can't now comment on slavery being bad and other countries shouldn't have slavery? It's just a stupid point.

As for the abortion thing, pretty much the entire western world came out against the US supreme courts ruling on that and said it was a bad move. Most of the population of the USA also disagrees with it as well and it was in large part why the GOP did not perform as well as expected in the mid terms. 

There is also a big difference between a fundamentalist religious minority not liking gay people and it literally being illegal in a country. The US has literally just voted into law more protections for same sex marriage rights just in case the far right Supreme Court went after that as well so not really getting your point there either. 

[badgerx16]

9 minutes ago, Turkish said:

if a gay person wanted to become a muslim should muslims change their entire belief system to allow that person to join the faith?

There are gay Muslims already.

[Lighthouse]

10 minutes ago, Turkish said:

if a gay person wanted to become a muslim should muslims change their entire belief system to allow that person to join the faith?

That’s not the argument. Nobody is asking any Muslim to change their own personal faith, simply not to impose it on other people. You’re allowed to believe whatever mental sh*te you want, whether it’s the Earth being flat or a 2000 year old Jew being nailed to a piece of wood to absolve you of all sin. Everyone else is allowed to think your beliefs are ludicrous and not adhere to them.

[Lord Duckhunter]

20 hours ago, The Kraken said:

Doubtful.  It’s created a media storm in some European countries who already agree with the armband but, in reality (and as pundits like Roy Keane and Ian Wright agree) all it has shown is that footballers have morals right up to the point where they might have to risk something, then it’s all about self preservation. I imagine Qatar and FIFA are patting themselves on the back about how well they suppressed it all. Infantino cares about the issue so much that he spent an hour long press conference shilling for the Qatari point of view.

The same European countries that were happy to compete in the Peking Olympics, the Russian World Cup & countless other events held by awful regimes. 
 

There’s obviously a hierarchy of victims and Wokies have hit the jackpot this time. Gays & birds, right at the summit so they can get moralising & lecturing. Uyghurs? Fuck them, we’ll show the opening Olympic ceremony on TV , Tibet, bollocks to that. In 2006, Amnesty International reported that racism in Russia was "out of control.", where was that dopey bird’s armband then? 
 

[tajjuk]

12 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

There are gay Muslims already.

Exactly, Sharia law is just an extremist interpretation of Islam.

I mean most Christians eat shellfish despite the bible saying you shouldn't, there are also extracts of the bible that encourage abortion despite the fact that many so called Christians are against it.

At the end of the day fundamentalist religious views don't really have that much that ties them to the actual religion and it's truths, these people have basically become a cult of extreme social conservatism. Its more a collection of social ideas they all agree on rather than about the religion, and there are actually a lot of similarities in these approaches between christians like this and muslims like this. They interpret their religions in ways that agree with the views on society and how society should be and then want to inflict those views on everyone else. 

The far right in the US constantly is advocating for basically a Christian Theocracy in the US, the other day one far right commentator flat out called for a dictatorship so their views could be forced on others because support for LGBT people, and other views they don't like are popular. 

[whelk]

Watch out! There is talk of a Saudi bid for 2030

[egg]

36 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

What a categorically dumb argument. It's not our 'will', its their law being forced on other people and forcing people to accept their outdated views, all of which entrenched in fundamentalist religious dogma. It is saying that something people do not have a choice over should not happen and should be illegal. Making homosexuality illegal is akin to Arabic countries banning people for being white or being tall. 

All those countries are doing is speaking out against a disgusting law that should not exist anywhere in the world, its a fundamental human right, there is no argument here.

The Qatari regime and anyone who supports that law are wrong and that should be pointed out at any opportunity.

Also if you don't want your country scrutinised, don't bid for the World Cup and invite the entire world to look at your country. I mean they only did this to sportswash their awful regime and turns out it hasn't worked, it's just highlighted how awful they are. 

Infantino's hypocrisy argument was also spectacularly dumb on so many levels. Is being gay illegal in any of the countries that have called Qatar out on it? No, so there is no hypocrisy. 

I mean he hilariously basically said that if a country had done bad stuff in the past it basically rules them out from commenting on bad things happening now in other countries, that is so stupid you have to wonder how the man who uttered it got to such a profile position.  We (the UK) basically created slavery, but we can't now comment on slavery being bad and other countries shouldn't have slavery? It's just a stupid point.

As for the abortion thing, pretty much the entire western world came out against the US supreme courts ruling on that and said it was a bad move. Most of the population of the USA also disagrees with it as well and it was in large part why the GOP did not perform as well as expected in the mid terms. 

There is also a big difference between a fundamentalist religious minority not liking gay people and it literally being illegal in a country. The US has literally just voted into law more protections for same sex marriage rights just in case the far right Supreme Court went after that as well so not really getting your point there either. 

Of behave. Their religion and their law. Our wish for them to change is our will. Failing to understand that is pretty hard to do. I cba with the rest as you seem a bit angry. 

[egg]

4 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

But the very thing people are protesting about is non-homosexuals instilling their will on homosexuals. Nobody is trying to take Islam from them, you can still live according to strict Sharia law if that’s your choosing. The whole argument is that people who don’t believe in this medieval belief system shouldn’t have to live by it. 

What a daft statement...the law of a land is the law of the land. On your argument, I shouldn't have to live by laws of this land if I don't want to. The whole point of this is that we in the west do not believe that these laws are right, but their laws are exactly that. 

[Weston Super Saint]

58 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

What a categorically dumb argument. It's not our 'will', its their law being forced on other people and forcing people to accept their outdated views,. 

In their country!

Don't like it, don't go to their country, pretty simple concept.

Clearly all the countries playing in the world cup have accepted their views a d laws otherwise they wouldn't have gone!

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

People are imposing their own personal beliefs on the entire country, on penalty of death in some cases. I can’t put it any more simply than that. If you’re having trouble differentiating between a same sex relationship and 12 year olds underaged drinking, I can’t help you.

No trouble at all. That's why I've said both protests would be daft.

[Lighthouse]

24 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

In their country!

Don't like it, don't go to their country, pretty simple concept.

Clearly all the countries playing in the world cup have accepted their views a d laws otherwise they wouldn't have gone!

They aren’t protesting for people who want to go there on holiday, they’re protesting for the homosexuals who are born there and don’t have a choice. I’m sure if you and Turkish were forced to bone each other from the age of 14, or face a state imposed death penalty, you might have a problem with it.

[Lighthouse]

48 minutes ago, egg said:

What a daft statement...the law of a land is the law of the land. On your argument, I shouldn't have to live by laws of this land if I don't want to. The whole point of this is that we in the west do not believe that these laws are right, but their laws are exactly that. 

Their laws are wrong and inhumane, that’s the whole point, that’s why people are protesting.

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Their laws are wrong and inhumane, that’s the whole point, that’s why people are protesting.

So people are trying to impose their beliefs on a countries laws, which is exactly what I said. 

[Lighthouse]

4 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So people are trying to impose their beliefs on a countries laws, which is exactly what I said. 

No, the imposing of beliefs is what people are protesting against. We’re not trying to force all Arabs to have a big gay orgy, we just want them to leave the Arabs who are gay in peace.

[Weston Super Saint]

21 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

They aren’t protesting for people who want to go there on holiday, they’re protesting for the homosexuals who are born there and don’t have a choice. I’m sure if you and Turkish were forced to bone each other from the age of 14, or face a state imposed death penalty, you might have a problem with it.

In your Western view / opinion, homosexuality is fine.  In their Arab view / opinion, homosexuality is abhorrent and against the will of Allah.

You're suggesting that everyone in the entire world including (as Soggy would say) the 'savages' should share your views and opinions.

It's commendable that you are accepting of homosexuals, if only you could project that understanding to the cultures and laws of other countries.  Let's not forget that homosexuality used to be illegal in our own country up until not that long ago.  

It's not for you (or I) to decide what is / isn't acceptable in other countries according to their faith and beliefs.

[aintforever]

Just now, Weston Super Saint said:

 

It's not for you (or I) to decide what is / isn't acceptable in other countries according to their faith and beliefs.

It’s not even a democratic country so the Qataris don’t get a choice either.

I think other countries are quite within their rights to criticise considering the corrupt way they brought the World Cup, and they are inviting the World to their country under the guise of everyone is welcome.

[Lighthouse]

6 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

In your Western view / opinion, homosexuality is fine.  In their Arab view / opinion, homosexuality is abhorrent and against the will of Allah.

You're suggesting that everyone in the entire world including (as Soggy would say) the 'savages' should share your views and opinions.

It's commendable that you are accepting of homosexuals, if only you could project that understanding to the cultures and laws of other countries.  Let's not forget that homosexuality used to be illegal in our own country up until not that long ago.  

It's not for you (or I) to decide what is / isn't acceptable in other countries according to their faith and beliefs.

You are determined to turn this into us imposing our views on them when really it’s them imposing their views on others in their country. Not everyone in these countries wants to live in accordance with Sharia law, many of them are being oppressed. If you can’t understand this basic concept, I can’t help you.

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, aintforever said:

It’s not even a democratic country so the Qataris don’t get a choice either.

I think other countries are quite within their rights to criticise considering the corrupt way they brought the World Cup, and they are inviting the World to their country under the guise of everyone is welcome.

Everyone is as long as they obey the rules, same as anywhere else. 

[Turkish]

21 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

No, the imposing of beliefs is what people are protesting against. We’re not trying to force all Arabs to have a big gay orgy, we just want them to leave the Arabs who are gay in peace.

People aren’t protesting, they’re making token gestures that they withdraw from when it means they might be negatively impacted by it. 
 

You can argue all you like about the rights and wrongs of the laws but they’re the laws of the country and western countries are trying to push their values on other countries who don’t have them at the moment. It doesn’t mean their values are right but it’s what they are doing. 

[badgerx16]

 

[egg]

53 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Their laws are wrong and inhumane, that’s the whole point, that’s why people are protesting.

In your view (mine too) but it ain't for us to change or seek to influence change. 

[Weston Super Saint]

25 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You are determined to turn this into us imposing our views on them when really it’s them imposing their views on others in their country. Not everyone in these countries wants to live in accordance with Sharia law, many of them are being oppressed. If you can’t understand this basic concept, I can’t help you.

I agree, that's exactly what it's about.  Not sure how many times I need to point out it's their country and they can do whatever they like in it!

If, as you say, there are people who don't want to live in accordance with Sharia law, then they will figure a way to resolve this.  Who made us the world's police force and gave us the right to resolve the world's problems?

Edited 24 November, 2022 by Weston Super Saint

[Weston Super Saint]

25 minutes ago, aintforever said:

It’s not even a democratic country so the Qataris don’t get a choice either.

 

Correct.

How is that our problem?

[Weston Super Saint]

20 minutes ago, Turkish said:

People aren’t protesting, they’re making token gestures that they withdraw from when it means they might be negatively impacted by it. 
 

You can argue all you like about the rights and wrongs of the laws but they’re the laws of the country and western countries are trying to push their values on other countries who don’t have them at the moment. It doesn’t mean their values are right but it’s what they are doing. 

Exactly.

A meaningful protest would have involved boycotting the world cup.  Not one country has suggested doing this as they have accepted the laws of the land in Qatar.

[aintforever]

2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Correct.

How is that our problem?

It’s not. But some on here are saying we shouldn’t say how Qataris should live but they themselves don’t even get a say. 

[Turkish]

9 minutes ago, egg said:

In your view (mine too) but it ain't for us to change or seek to influence change. 

Don’t you think it stems back to that western arrogance that we know so much more than them, we know so much better than them, they should live how we live. I certainly think there is an element of that. Soggy even went as far as to say it’s our responsibility to educate the savages. Breathtaking arrogance. 

[Turkish]

40 minutes ago, aintforever said:

It’s not even a democratic country so the Qataris don’t get a choice either.

I think other countries are quite within their rights to criticise considering the corrupt way they brought the World Cup, and they are inviting the World to their country under the guise of everyone is welcome.

We live in a democracy and you whine and bitch and moan about that as well. Who are you to say they’d be better off living in one. 

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The same European countries that were happy to compete in the Peking Olympics, the Russian World Cup & countless other events held by awful regimes. 
 

There’s obviously a hierarchy of victims and Wokies have hit the jackpot this time. Gays & birds, right at the summit so they can get moralising & lecturing. Uyghurs? Fuck them, we’ll show the opening Olympic ceremony on TV , Tibet, bollocks to that. In 2006, Amnesty International reported that racism in Russia was "out of control.", where was that dopey bird’s armband then? 
 

“Dopey bird” 😂

[Turkish]

10 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

“Dopey bird” 😂

She should have been educating the savages right?

[Weston Super Saint]

40 minutes ago, aintforever said:

It’s not. But some on here are saying we shouldn’t say how Qataris should live but they themselves don’t even get a say. 

Nor do the Chinese.

Not sure what your point is?

[egg]

41 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Don’t you think it stems back to that western arrogance that we know so much more than them, we know so much better than them, they should live how we live. I certainly think there is an element of that. Soggy even went as far as to say it’s our responsibility to educate the savages. Breathtaking arrogance. 

Yes, absolutely that. Our way, so it should be their way. Disrespectful. We ain't the policy makers for the world. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

We used to go round the world spreading our morals and beliefs, trying to impose them on other cultures (or as someone put it “educating the savages”) I thought this was supposed to be a bad thing, but now it appears not to be. 
 

 

[aintforever]

8 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Nor do the Chinese.

Not sure what your point is?

Maybe the majority of Qataris are not actually homophobic and we wouldn’t be imposing unwanted western values on them anyway (if that is what we are supposed to be doing). 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

We used to go round the world spreading our morals and beliefs, trying to impose them on other cultures (or as someone put it “educating the savages”) I thought this was supposed to be a bad thing, but now it appears not to be. 
 

 

What is odd is they seem to want us to spread the values of a country that we are constantly reminded is broken and an absolute mess. Guess it’s not that bad if the rest of the world needs to raise itself to our level 

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Maybe the majority of Qataris are not actually homophobic and we wouldn’t be imposing unwanted western values on them anyway (if that is what we are supposed to be doing). 

How many Qataris have you spoken to about this?