LGBT+ Discussion

[hypochondriac]

8 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Presumably nobody has complained about seeing a cock in the showers.

I wouldn't be so sure given the experience of the likes of Riley gaines in US sport. 

[Turkish]

if it looks like a duck etc

[Tamesaint]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/cq8q2wwq271o

FA to remind Guehi & Palace about religious messaging - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/cqjzrze0479o

 

I am rather amazed that Jamie Delldays hasn't updated us all on the outrage that this is causing on Twitter. Perhaps Twitter // X is broken. 😁😁

[Turkish]

42 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/cq8q2wwq271o

FA to remind Guehi & Palace about religious messaging - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/cqjzrze0479o

 

I am rather amazed that Jamie Delldays hasn't updated us all on the outrage that this is causing on Twitter. Perhaps Twitter // X is broken. 😁😁

So they’ll force players to wear rainbow armbands and laces and make them take the knee but if a player puts something on their arm they believe in it’s breaking the rules 🤣🤣

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

So they’ll force players to wear rainbow armbands and laces and make them take the knee but if a player puts something on their arm they believe in it’s breaking the rules 🤣🤣

Of course, if “certain” players won’t wear rainbow items, it is fine

[whelk]

Well done Guehi

 

[egg]

3 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/cq8q2wwq271o

FA to remind Guehi & Palace about religious messaging - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/cqjzrze0479o

 

I am rather amazed that Jamie Delldays hasn't updated us all on the outrage that this is causing on Twitter. Perhaps Twitter // X is broken. 😁😁

 

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Well done Guehi

 

Sam Morsy also:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/live/cr5mvl1n183t?post=asset%3Ac64ee333-d05c-4680-8a54-458986cf8dcd#post

[Holmes_and_Watson]

3 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/cq8q2wwq271o

FA to remind Guehi & Palace about religious messaging - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/cqjzrze0479o

 

I am rather amazed that Jamie Delldays hasn't updated us all on the outrage that this is causing on Twitter. Perhaps Twitter // X is broken. 😁😁

Nice to see football being inclusive. As long as it's one of the campaigns they've bought into.

Perhaps an "All Religions Matter" campaign where players take up a variety of prayer positions around the centre circle at the start of every game? Aethists can do freeform miming, such as pretending to go for a brisk walk, or texting. Plenty of religious hatred in the world for them to stand up against.

Almost without exception these stories single out an individual and their non compliance with a campaign, in a negative way. We then get quotes from activist groups. Only at the end of the quotes or article do they say they respect an individual's choice. Clearly that's never the case, as there wouldn't be an article or activist quotes and pressure.

I note that it's for a Stonewall campaign. A group who have done great work, but who are more and more also in it for the cash, as cited by the droves of employers leaving their diversity campaign capture and the not all altruistic reasons for adding a T to LGB.

Meanwhile we can keep people feeling welcomed, included and safe at games by being welcoming, inclusive and respectful. Gimmicks optional.

Edited 3 December, 2024 by Holmes_and_Watson

[aintforever]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

So they’ll force players to wear rainbow armbands and laces and make them take the knee but if a player puts something on their arm they believe in it’s breaking the rules 🤣🤣

I don’t think anyone is being forced to wear them, Sam Morsy isn’t.

[Lighthouse]

25 minutes ago, whelk said:

Well done Guehi

 

I think there's been a misunderstanding here, he's talking about Gabriel Jesus.

[The Kraken]

22 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I don’t think anyone is being forced to wear them, Sam Morsy isn’t.

Nobody is being literally forced to wear one, I think that’s pretty clear from everyone.

But the level of coercion to go along with these campaigns edges towards what would otherwise be classed as workplace bullying or abuse. Morsy exercised his right of expression and right of opinion, and various LGBT campaigners publicly criticised his decision and his that his religious beliefs didn’t align with their own.  Football365, a leading UK based website, said he should have been stripped of the captaincy for his choice.

 

Edited 3 December, 2024 by The Kraken

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I think there's been a misunderstanding here, he's talking about Gabriel Jesus.

Don't be so disrespectful. It's obvious it's referring to our Jesus, Alexander Ostlund.

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

Nobody is being literally forced to wear one, I think that’s pretty clear from everyone.

But the level of coercion to go along with these campaigns edges towards what would otherwise be classed as workplace bullying or abuse. Morsy exercised his right of expression and right of opinion, and various LGBT campaigners publicly criticised his decision and his that his religious beliefs didn’t align with their own.  Football365, a leading UK based website, said he should have been stripped of the captaincy for his choice.

 

They are all grown men, I’m sure they are not going to be crying over a bit of criticism. The Irish fella who refused to wear the poppy got more stick.

[The Kraken]

Some nicknames really are well earned.

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, The Kraken said:

Nobody is being literally forced to wear one, I think that’s pretty clear from everyone.

But the level of coercion to go along with these campaigns edges towards what would otherwise be classed as workplace bullying or abuse. Morsy exercised his right of expression and right of opinion, and various LGBT campaigners publicly criticised his decision and his that his religious beliefs didn’t align with their own.  Football365, a leading UK based website, said he should have been stripped of the captaincy for his choice.

 

You don’t have to wear one but if you don’t you’ll be made to feel very guilty for not, have your name made public and told you should suffer consequences you might even have to public explain why you don’t want to wear one. But no one if “forced” to wear one 

[aintforever]

7 hours ago, Turkish said:

You don’t have to wear one but if you don’t you’ll be made to feel very guilty for not, have your name made public and told you should suffer consequences you might even have to public explain why you don’t want to wear one. But no one if “forced” to wear one 

Same as the poppy then.

[Turkish]

3 hours ago, aintforever said:

Same as the poppy then.

Not really as James McClean has been handed an exemption from wearing a Poppy by the FA, not warned about his behaviour.

 

Edited 4 December, 2024 by Turkish

[aintforever]

49 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Not really as James McClean has been handed an exemption from wearing a Poppy by the FA, not warned about his behaviour.

 

Has Sam Morsy been warned about his behaviour then?

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Has Sam Morsy been warned about his behaviour then?

no, the FA announced they would not take action. His club released a statment defending him. Why would they need to announce this if it was down to the individuals own choice?

[aintforever]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

no, the FA announced they would not take action. His club released a statment defending him. Why would they need to announce this if it was down to the individuals own choice?

Who's choice was it then if it wasn't his?

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Who's choice was it then if it wasn't his?

just like taking the knee, you're really struggling to get your head round this aren't you.

[aintforever]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

just like taking the knee, you're really struggling to get your head round this aren't you.

Obviously.

Sam Morsy chooses not to wear the armband but he its not down to his own individual choice.

 

[Turkish]

Just now, aintforever said:

Obviously.

Sam Morsy chooses not to wear the armband but he its not down to his own individual choice.

 

Do you really need to spelling out? Jeez

[whelk]

These initiatives as one offs are ok but seems organisation easily become slaves to them annually and can annoy many of us cynics more than have the effect they hope to.

Sky did a feature on it and interviewed  a female fan was saying how there was homophobic songs at a ladies game recently. Not sure I believe that given the number of lesbians in the female game. Not as if attracts pissed up idiots like blokes game. So consequence was still a long way to go in the ladies game.

Who dare risks scrapping rainbow laces week at FA or PL without being attacked by Stonewall and others for being an intolerant bigot so probably here for our lifetime

Edited 4 December, 2024 by whelk

[Holmes_and_Watson]

"Simon Fanshawe, one of the original founders of Stonewall who has since become concerned that the charity has lost its way, is similarly pessimistic about the Diversity Champions programme’s future.

 “It was a very good idea when it started,” says Fanshawe, who is now rector of the University of Edinburgh, “because it was simply saying to organisations, ‘Are you making sure that if gay people apply to you they won’t be discriminated against? And secondly, if they are in the organisation are they having an ok time?’

“I can see why it’s been an earner. But the problem is that it is no longer a signifier at work that you’re treating people fairly.

“It’s now become a signifier about whether you’re compliant with a certain set of ideological views.”

Sadly, looking to associate with such a well known name to further diversity, has just opened organisations up to pressure to enact all changes within Stonewall's programmes, whether they have any legal or scientific basis or not.

The sector I'm in has removed a number of large companies from their top 100 inclusivity index. They aren't any less inclusive. There's lots of good work going on for all employees. They have just distanced themselves from Stonewall. There's a bit of relief all round as companies can take control, focus on their employees experience and look at best practice from a range of sources.

[aintforever]

3 hours ago, whelk said:

These initiatives as one offs are ok but seems organisation easily become slaves to them annually and can annoy many of us cynics more than have the effect they hope to.

Sky did a feature on it and interviewed  a female fan was saying how there was homophobic songs at a ladies game recently. Not sure I believe that given the number of lesbians in the female game. Not as if attracts pissed up idiots like blokes game. So consequence was still a long way to go in the ladies game.

Who dare risks scrapping rainbow laces week at FA or PL without being attacked by Stonewall and others for being an intolerant bigot so probably here for our lifetime

I don't think that's the case. IMO it's just a phase we're going through. Society is always progressing, there are people here now who were around when being gay was illegal, I remember homophobic attitudes being the norm when I was growing up. Once the culture of football catches up this sort of signalling thing will just die out.

[hypochondriac]

35 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I don't think that's the case. IMO it's just a phase we're going through. Society is always progressing, there are people here now who were around when being gay was illegal, I remember homophobic attitudes being the norm when I was growing up. Once the culture of football catches up this sort of signalling thing will just die out.

No it isn't just a phase it's become some yearly thing that players are pressured into going along with it. I think I mentioned previously that my brother in law was a professional footballer and this is exactly how it is viewed by most players in the dressing room - something they don't particularly want to do but know they will get a load of grief if they don't go along with it. As posted above, the original creator of the rainbow campaign highlights how necessary it used to be but now recognises it correctly as something wholly different from what it started as. Stonewall need an excuse to keep existing and the money rolling in so they have morphed into these diversity champions that companies have started running away from over the last couple of years because it's a racket designed to give Stonewall money whilst they do great harm. Like it or not, the rainbow campaign is no longer about simple equality but instead is overtly political and that's why it isn't supported by a significant number who don't want that sort of thing in sport or society in general quite frankly. 

[aintforever]

31 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No it isn't just a phase it's become some yearly thing that players are pressured into going along with it. I think I mentioned previously that my brother in law was a professional footballer and this is exactly how it is viewed by most players in the dressing room - something they don't particularly want to do but know they will get a load of grief if they don't go along with it. As posted above, the original creator of the rainbow campaign highlights how necessary it used to be but now recognises it correctly as something wholly different from what it started as. Stonewall need an excuse to keep existing and the money rolling in so they have morphed into these diversity champions that companies have started running away from over the last couple of years because it's a racket designed to give Stonewall money whilst they do great harm. Like it or not, the rainbow campaign is no longer about simple equality but instead is overtly political and that's why it isn't supported by a significant number who don't want that sort of thing in sport or society in general quite frankly. 

I disagree, I think promoting equality and diversity in football can only be a good thing, and wearing an armband for one game is a small, completely harmless gesture.

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I disagree, I think promoting equality and diversity in football can only be a good thing, and wearing an armband for one game is a small, completely harmless gesture.

I don't think supporting that lobby is harmless at all. You only have to see the harms outlined in the Cass report to realise that factions within that lobby are evil. I agree with one of the original creators that the meaning has been perverted. I particularly object to it in sport which people tend to use for escapism and largely object to political messaging. Where they accept it, most of the time it is grudgingly and that includes the players. Even lgbt icon Henderson was shown to be a raging hypocrite. 

[pingpong]

I'm woke af, but this manufactured argument isn't touching the sides.  The only outrage here is coming from people outraged about non existent outrage from a mythical opponent. I haven't seen any bother on this topic from anyone in the lgbtqia communities, this is very much a non issue. Eventually football will catch up with the rest of society and move beyond this fake panic about nothing in particular.

[rallyboy]

If someone goes to great lengths to not support equality, they have to accept that many will judge them.

 

 

[Turkish]

20 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

If someone goes to great lengths to not support equality, they have to accept that many will judge them.

 

 

So where in this instance a muslim has refused to wear a rainbow armband due to his religion, how we should he be judged?

[whelk]

1 hour ago, rallyboy said:

If someone goes to great lengths to not support equality, they have to accept that many will judge them.

 

 

Try causes rather than equality. Key issue is the assumption that one is right and other is wrong. People have differing views and they should be respected.

Did Wifred Zaha not want equality for black lives when he didn’t take the knee?

[aintforever]

4 hours ago, whelk said:

Key issue is the assumption that one is right and other is wrong. People have differing views and they should be respected.

Like those who choose not to wear a poppy?

[whelk]

22 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Like those who choose not to wear a poppy?

TBH I think poppies on football shirts is meaningless. Remembrance is embedded in our society and is not trying to champion a cause or change people’s behaviour. If it means nothing to someone from Britain then they are probably a selfish twat. I would fully understand if say an Egyptian player chose not to wear one and wouldn’t care.
 

[aintforever]

43 minutes ago, whelk said:

TBH I think poppies on football shirts is meaningless. Remembrance is embedded in our society and is not trying to champion a cause or change people’s behaviour. If it means nothing to someone from Britain then they are probably a selfish twat. I would fully understand if say an Egyptian player chose not to wear one and wouldn’t care.
 

Same principle though, both making a small gesture for a good cause by putting a symbol on a shirt, wether it's for promoting equality and diversity or remembering those killed at war makes little difference IMO.

 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Like those who choose not to wear a poppy?

I know this is your nonstop bit of whataboutery but Whelk has summed it up pretty well. Remberance sunday is something to honour the fallen soldiers and something thats been done for decades. James McClean is perfectly entitled not to wear a shirt with one on and he has some valid reasons for why he wouldn't want too. However the issue a lot of people have with his action is that he's fine to take the money working in this country but doesnt want to respect the people who fought to make that a possibility for him. Whether that's valid point or not is not really relevant to this discussion, So stop bleating on about the frigging poppy. 

It's also different because the FA have granted an exemption to him. Whereas in the case of Palace and Marc Guehi he was warned of his behaviour. In the case of Morsy they announced they wouldn't take action. Granting exemptions, warning players and announcing no action to be take is pretty strange things to do when it's apparently completely the players own choice. 

[aintforever]

18 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I know this is your nonstop bit of whataboutery but Whelk has summed it up pretty well. Remberance sunday is something to honour the fallen soldiers and something thats been done for decades. James McClean is perfectly entitled not to wear a shirt with one on and he has some valid reasons for why he wouldn't want too. However the issue a lot of people have with his action is that he's fine to take the money working in this country but doesnt want to respect the people who fought to make that a possibility for him. Whether that's valid point or not is not really relevant to this discussion, So stop bleating on about the frigging poppy. 

It's also different because the FA have granted an exemption to him. Whereas in the case of Palace and Marc Guehi he was warned of his behaviour. In the case of Morsy they announced they wouldn't take action. Granting exemptions, warning players and announcing no action to be take is pretty strange things to do when it's apparently completely the players own choice. 

Guehi was warned for having a religious statement on display, the rules on that are pretty clear.

The poppy example is entirely appropriate because, just like the rainbow laces its for a good cause yet nobody cries about the pressure put on players to conform with that even though not all players want to wear it.

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

Guehi was warned for having a religious statement on display, the rules on that are pretty clear.

The poppy example is entirely appropriate because, just like the rainbow laces its for a good cause yet nobody cries about the pressure put on players to conform with that even though not all players want to wear it.

by writing “Jesus loves you” on an armband was Guehi actually showing extra support to the LGBT community by saying Jesus loves them? Is this now wrong?
 

So do you think Morsy was right to refuse to wear one or not?

 

Are Muslim players also making a religious statement by not wearing rainbow laces and armbands due to their religion?

Edited 5 December, 2024 by Turkish

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Guehi was warned for having a religious statement on display, the rules on that are pretty clear.

The poppy example is entirely appropriate because, just like the rainbow laces its for a good cause yet nobody cries about the pressure put on players to conform with that even though not all players want to wear it.

They shouldn't wear either.

Just play fucking football!

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

They shouldn't wear either.

Just play fucking football!

I don't disagree with that. You could argue that the poppy isn't a political symbol but I'd be more than happy with a rule that says you don't wear anything on the shirts and just play. 

[Turkish]

Another development 

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/manchester-united-drops-plans-rainbow-164221091.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly91ay5zZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAAZyTaMsU_aiH8g5F-sJoInWtce6mHUsB14eax-koQBGHaMdtXnD3SFsUEXPyxksrwE4aVnB-4bdaXusP7zO3uUJOerDHwk5YAS2VC2Rw7u-b5S4RKIkCwPbvBumf5shfc8Lk3liPG-giQ-pRIMl5F76W8ZiGfxv58k3X5WbFZS1

man united dropped plans to wear rainbow jackets after their players refused to wear them in show a display of solidarity with a Muslim player

so they chose to support islam over supporting LGBTQ+. Guess Islam is currently top of the Woke league 

Edited 5 December, 2024 by Turkish

[aintforever]

3 hours ago, Turkish said:

by writing “Jesus loves you” on an armband was Guehi actually showing extra support to the LGBT community by saying Jesus loves them? Is this now wrong?
 

So do you think Morsy was right to refuse to wear one or not?

 

Are Muslim players also making a religious statement by not wearing rainbow laces and armbands due to their religion?

Re: Guehi, writing anything religious or political on your kit is against the rules - it’s as simple as that.

It’s a shame Morsy refused to wear one but it’s a free country. Some religions are homophobic, some more than others.

Muslim players are making a choice based on their religion, that’s different to writing something on their kit.

[Turkish]

12 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Re: Guehi, writing anything religious or political on your kit is against the rules - it’s as simple as that.

It’s a shame Morsy refused to wear one but it’s a free country. Some religions are homophobic, some more than others.

Muslim players are making a choice based on their religion, that’s different to writing something on their kit.

As he says the message is clear. It also wasn’t on his kit 
 

You can also make a statement without speaking you know, Muslim players are making one with silently. 
 

what do you think of Man United players choosing to back Islam over LGBT?

Edited 5 December, 2024 by Turkish

[aintforever]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

As he says the message is clear. 
 

You can also make a statement without speaking you know, Muslim players are making one with silently. 
 

what do you think of Man United players choosing to back Islam over LGBT?

The massage was clear but so are the rules around writing statements on your kit. I expect the Man U players were just backing their teammate. As I said, it’s disappointing but it’s a free country. At least it’s highlighting the issues Islam has with homosexuality.

[The Kraken]

24 minutes ago, aintforever said:

It’s a shame Morsy refused to wear one but it’s a free country.

Such hypocrisy in this statement. 

I’m all for freedom of choice, except when it’s not my choice. Then its a shameful act, worthy of shame.

[aintforever]

8 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Such hypocrisy in this statement. 

I’m all for freedom of choice, except when it’s not my choice. Then its a shameful act, worthy of shame.

I just think it’s a shame (as in unfortunate) that some religions are homophobic, no hypocrisy at all, just my opinion.

Edited 5 December, 2024 by aintforever

[Turkish]

13 minutes ago, aintforever said:

The massage was clear but so are the rules around writing statements on your kit. I expect the Man U players were just backing their teammate. As I said, it’s disappointing but it’s a free country. At least it’s highlighting the issues Islam has with homosexuality.

It wasn’t his kit it was written on an armband he was requested to wear 

they chose to back a Muslim over LGBTs. 
 

what’s your view of Islam now it’s highlighted the issues it has with homosexuality? (Which most of us already knew existed anyway)

[Turkish]

6 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I just think it’s a shame (as in unfortunate) that some religions are homophobic, no hypocrisy at all, just my opinion.

Why is it a shame that someone you’ve never met or ever will decided to not let their convictions be overruled by a mandate? Do you believe people have a right to stand up for what they believe in without judgement from others?

[aintforever]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

It wasn’t his kit it was written on an armband he was requested to wear 

they chose to back a Muslim over LGBTs. 
 

what’s your view of Islam now it’s highlighted the issues it has with homosexuality? (Which most of us already knew existed anyway)

It expect it doesn’t matter if it’s on his kit or not, you can’t have religious or political messages on display.

Im not a fan of religion at all, Islam can be particularly backward with its attitudes but so can Christianity.