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Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

Posted
Posted
  On 24/11/2022 at 20:06, Turkish said:

What is odd is they seem to want us to spread the values of a country that we are constantly reminded is broken and an absolute mess. Guess it’s not that bad if the rest of the world needs to raise itself to our level 

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My old man used to tell me that we should thank our lucky stars that we were born in a Western liberal democracy and if every country had values like ours the world would be a happier place. I used to find it a bit old fashioned, so it’s great that at 86 he’s back in tune with mainstream Britain. 

  • Like 2
Weston Super Saint

Weston Super Saint

Posted
Posted
  On 24/11/2022 at 20:33, aintforever said:

Well no one in Qatar voted for homophobic laws so how do we know how many agree with them?

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Yeah, that's probably it 🤦🏻

Religion is the law. Sharia law was created by Allah, not humble man.  There is nothing to vote for or against.

Good that you continue to show your ignorance and prejudice about other countries though.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 24/11/2022 at 20:45, Weston Super Saint said:

Yeah, that's probably it 🤦🏻

Religion is the law. Sharia law was created by Allah, not humble man.  There is nothing to vote for or against.

Good that you continue to show your ignorance and prejudice about other countries though.

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Don’t worry all the fuss about the rainbow armbands will have them all voting with their feet against Allah 🤣🤣

aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted
  On 24/11/2022 at 20:45, Weston Super Saint said:

Yeah, that's probably it 🤦🏻

Religion is the law. Sharia law was created by Allah, not humble man.  There is nothing to vote for or against.

Good that you continue to show your ignorance and prejudice about other countries though.

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Not all Muslims believe in Sharia law.

badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 24/11/2022 at 21:18, aintforever said:

Not all Muslims believe in Sharia law.

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All Muslims belive in Sharia law, it is part of the religious texts. Where things differ is in how Sharia is interpreted and implemented; many Muslim majority countries only apply the Sharia rules to family and domestic matters, leaving out all the stoning, amputation, and beheading bits. It can even be applied to Muslim marriage and divorce settlements in the UK, ( https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/01/british-court-recognises-sharia-law-landmark-divorce-case/ ).

 

Edited by badgerx16
Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted
  On 24/11/2022 at 20:02, egg said:

Yes, absolutely that. Our way, so it should be their way. Disrespectful. We ain't the policy makers for the world. 

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You’re all clinging to this erroneous idea of, ‘their way’. ‘Their way’ is the way of the ruling elites and not the way of the entire country. If you’re going to apply that logic then the Holocaust was absolutely fine. I know Godwin’s law is lazy but in this case it’s a perfect fit, the law of the land said don’t be Jewish, so what right did we have to go in there and liberate them? Should have respected their culture.

egg

egg

Posted
Posted
  On 24/11/2022 at 22:53, Lighthouse said:

You’re all clinging to this erroneous idea of, ‘their way’. ‘Their way’ is the way of the ruling elites and not the way of the entire country. If you’re going to apply that logic then the Holocaust was absolutely fine. I know Godwin’s law is lazy but in this case it’s a perfect fit, the law of the land said don’t be Jewish, so what right did we have to go in there and liberate them? Should have respected their culture.

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No, you're hanging on to erroneous idea that another country should change their ways because it's so different to our perception of the right way. It's arrogant and disrespectful. The Holocaust point is desperate - you're better than that. 

aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted
  On 24/11/2022 at 23:06, egg said:

No, you're hanging on to erroneous idea that another country should change their ways because it's so different to our perception of the right way. It's arrogant and disrespectful. The Holocaust point is desperate - you're better than that. 

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We’re we wrong to put pressure on South Africa to stop apartheid then? 

Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted
  On 24/11/2022 at 23:06, egg said:

No, you're hanging on to erroneous idea that another country should change their ways because it's so different to our perception of the right way. It's arrogant and disrespectful. The Holocaust point is desperate - you're better than that. 

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It's not desparate at all. I get that people don't like virtue signalling, neither do I, but this kind of faux-pragmatism is just plain weird. For sane adults to sit here and basically say, "state sanctioned execution of homosexuals, who's to say if that's right or wrong," as if it's some sort of quirky, local mannersim is just ridiculous. It's very obviously wrong.

You're arguing that is fine to kill innocent people based on your own personal beliefs, you do realise this? If you think you can explain to a teenage lesbian who's about to be beheaded that her death is nothing like Jews in a gas chamber then I don't know what to say.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
  On 24/11/2022 at 23:18, aintforever said:

We’re we wrong to put pressure on South Africa to stop apartheid then? 

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Once again you’re confusing political policy with religious law governing an entire country which the majority of the residents believe in. You should probably bow out now pal, you’re struggling once again to understand what’s going on. 

Edited by Turkish
Turkish

Turkish

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 24/11/2022 at 23:24, Lighthouse said:

It's not desparate at all. I get that people don't like virtue signalling, neither do I, but this kind of faux-pragmatism is just plain weird. For sane adults to sit here and basically say, "state sanctioned execution of homosexuals, who's to say if that's right or wrong," as if it's some sort of quirky, local mannersim is just ridiculous. It's very obviously wrong.

You're arguing that is fine to kill innocent people based on your own personal beliefs, you do realise this? If you think you can explain to a teenage lesbian who's about to be beheaded that her death is nothing like Jews in a gas chamber then I don't know what to say.

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No one said it’s right, what people are saying is that there is this arrogance that we insist our way of life is the only way of life, everyone must agree. Muslims come here and try and enforce their way of life in certain areas, that’s met with the same response. 

Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted
  On 24/11/2022 at 23:31, Turkish said:

No one said it’s right, what people are saying is that there is this arrogance that we insist our way of life is the only way of life, everyone must agree. Muslims come here and try and enforce their way of life in certain areas, that’s met with the same response. 

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You agonisingly close to the right answer there, you just need to tweak it slightly.

aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 24/11/2022 at 23:29, Turkish said:

Once again you’re confusing political policy with religious law governing an entire country which the majority of the residents believe in. You should probably bow out now pal, you’re struggling once again to understand what’s going on. 

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How do you know what percentage of Qataris are in favour of the death penalty for gays?

The South Africa example is a good one. Maybe we should have held a World Cup there back in the 70s or 80s. Everyone welcome, you just have to stick to their laws and not be arrogant and try to tell them what is wrong or right. Blacks can sit in their own section.

Edited by aintforever
  • Like 1
egg

egg

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 24/11/2022 at 23:24, Lighthouse said:

It's not desparate at all. I get that people don't like virtue signalling, neither do I, but this kind of faux-pragmatism is just plain weird. For sane adults to sit here and basically say, "state sanctioned execution of homosexuals, who's to say if that's right or wrong," as if it's some sort of quirky, local mannersim is just ridiculous. It's very obviously wrong.

You're arguing that is fine to kill innocent people based on your own personal beliefs, you do realise this? If you think you can explain to a teenage lesbian who's about to be beheaded that her death is nothing like Jews in a gas chamber then I don't know what to say.

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It is desperate, and it's disgusting that you allege that I say that it's fine to kill people based on my beliefs. I've said nothing of the sort - if you want a discussion, please be respectful and don't make up nonsense. 

I'm saying that Qatar is free to continue to interpret, and enforce, sharia law on its own country as it has hitherto. Sure, it's unpleasant, but it's their established religious law. That is altogether different to the Nazis coming along and imposing it's flavour if political ideology, and enforcing it, at home and in other countries. Your suggestion that Nazi genocide in foreign countries is comparable to the Qatar situation isn't a sensible line of argument. 

The above has nothing to do with my beliefs. It's you who's stamping your feet saying that you feel that there must be change in another country because of your belief that our way should replace their way. That's disrespectful of their way.

Also ask yourself how any change could realistically he sustained, and how it may be for the people if they follow our way and then inevitably have to revert to type. If you're struggling for an answer, Afghanistan is a very recent example of how our attempt to force our will on an islamic state went to absolute rat shit for it's people. A new way of life, followed by the clamp down based on its way. Lives were built, changed, then reversed, then lost because we meddled believing we knew best for another country and it's people. But yeah, let's do it our way, that will work. 

Edited by egg
  • Like 2
  • Confused 1
Weston Super Saint

Weston Super Saint

Posted
Posted

Absolutely zero virtue signalling about this one : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63747732

  Quote

Under the latest version of the law, any promotion of homosexuality - including in books, films and online - is illegal and carries heavy penalties.

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I guess it's just the non-nuclear countries where we should be forcing our ideologies of what we consider to be right and wrong on their people right?

CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 07:06, Weston Super Saint said:

Absolutely zero virtue signalling about this one : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63747732

I guess it's just the non-nuclear countries where we should be forcing our ideologies of what we consider to be right and wrong on their people right?

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That's the strange thing about this planet we live on.  Its so weird how absolutely everyone on it just loves Russia and approves of them whatever they do.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
  On 24/11/2022 at 23:46, aintforever said:

How do you know what percentage of Qataris are in favour of the death penalty for gays?

The South Africa example is a good one. Maybe we should have held a World Cup there back in the 70s or 80s. Everyone welcome, you just have to stick to their laws and not be arrogant and try to tell them what is wrong or right. Blacks can sit in their own section.

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I Know you were racking your brains trying to think of an example and managed to come up with South Africa but just because you think it’s a good one doesn’t mean it is. It’s a very poor one, perhaps not unsurprisingly. in fact it’s almost as bad as lighthouse claiming people think we should have just let the nazis get on with it. 
 

For starters apartheid only lasted for 50 years, it wasn’t based on a religious belief 1000s of years old that is ingrained in the culture and belief system. Everyone told South Africa it was wrong, with extensive embargo’s. Countries will quite happily take Qatars money though.  

then there is your muttering and stuttering but but but what if we’d held a World Cup there. We didn’t in part for the reasons above, so it’s made up scenario and really not relevant to Qatar whatsoever,  you really don’t get it not for the first time!

Edited by Turkish
  • Like 1
Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 02:33, egg said:

It is desperate, and it's disgusting that you allege that I say that it's fine to kill people based on my beliefs. I've said nothing of the sort - if you want a discussion, please be respectful and don't make up nonsense. 

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I'm not saying these are your beliefs. I'm saying that you're pretending to not really know whether the Qataris are wrong or not and using phrases like, "it's different to our perception of the right way." It's not different it's wrong and I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would think this is somehow ambiguous.

 

  On 25/11/2022 at 02:33, egg said:

I'm saying that Qatar is free to continue to interpret, and enforce, sharia law on its own country as it has hitherto. Sure, it's unpleasant, but it's their established religious law. That is altogether different to the Nazis coming along and imposing it's flavour if political ideology, and enforcing it, at home and in other countries. Your suggestion that Nazi genocide in foreign countries is comparable to the Qatar situation isn't a sensible line of argument. 

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The only differences are:

1. The Qataris claim a big beardy man in the sky is telling them they should be doing this.

2. It's always been the case.

Which is a terrible justification for their beliefs on both counts. "We kill gays because Allah says so and it's always been the case," is about as dreadful an argument as I've ever heard.

  On 25/11/2022 at 02:33, egg said:

The above has nothing to do with my beliefs. It's you who's stamping your feet saying that you feel that there must be change in another country because of your belief that our way should replace their way. That's disrespectful of their way.

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I'll say it one last time because I'm bored with it now. THEY  are the ones saying that everybody should live by their beliefs. I am not telling anyone to live by anything. If a Qatari wants to wear a hijab, not eat pork, not drink alcohol and pray to Allah 462 times per day that's absolutely fine. If he's gay and thinks its a sin so marries a wife and lives a misserable life of denial trying to pray the gay away, also fine it's his life. 

 

  On 25/11/2022 at 02:33, egg said:

Also ask yourself how any change could realistically he sustained, and how it may be for the people if they follow our way and then inevitably have to revert to type. If you're struggling for an answer, Afghanistan is a very recent example of how our attempt to force our will on an islamic state went to absolute rat shit for it's people. A new way of life, followed by the clamp down based on its way. Lives were built, changed, then reversed, then lost because we meddled believing we knew best for another country and it's people. But yeah, let's do it our way, that will work. 

Expand  

And yet when we pulled out of Afghanistan, hundreds of thousands fled, many more were dragged out into the street and executed and millions now live in fear. We didn't try to impose any way of life there, we removed the opressors. The problem is that it's one of the most dreadfully corrupt countries in the world and when the coalition pulled out the government and the armed forced collapsed without a fight and were overrun. Sure, there are plenty of fundamentalist Taliban supporters but as we saw, there are also a huge number who didn't want to live like that.

sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
  On 24/11/2022 at 20:17, Lord Duckhunter said:

My old man used to tell me that we should thank our lucky stars that we were born in a Western liberal democracy and if every country had values like ours the world would be a happier place. I used to find it a bit old fashioned, so it’s great that at 86 he’s back in tune with mainstream Britain. 

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This explains why you  talk like you are still in the 20th century Duckie.

  • Like 1
egg

egg

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 09:47, Lighthouse said:

I'm not saying these are your beliefs. I'm saying that you're pretending to not really know whether the Qataris are wrong or not and using phrases like, "it's different to our perception of the right way." It's not different it's wrong and I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would think this is somehow ambiguous.

 

The only differences are:

1. The Qataris claim a big beardy man in the sky is telling them they should be doing this.

2. It's always been the case.

Which is a terrible justification for their beliefs on both counts. "We kill gays because Allah says so and it's always been the case," is about as dreadful an argument as I've ever heard.

I'll say it one last time because I'm bored with it now. THEY  are the ones saying that everybody should live by their beliefs. I am not telling anyone to live by anything. If a Qatari wants to wear a hijab, not eat pork, not drink alcohol and pray to Allah 462 times per day that's absolutely fine. If he's gay and thinks its a sin so marries a wife and lives a misserable life of denial trying to pray the gay away, also fine it's his life. 

 

And yet when we pulled out of Afghanistan, hundreds of thousands fled, many more were dragged out into the street and executed and millions now live in fear. We didn't try to impose any way of life there, we removed the opressors. The problem is that it's one of the most dreadfully corrupt countries in the world and when the coalition pulled out the government and the armed forced collapsed without a fight and were overrun. Sure, there are plenty of fundamentalist Taliban supporters but as we saw, there are also a huge number who didn't want to live like that.

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Jesus wept. I cba to even start responding to that nonsense. Let's agree to differ. 

Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 10:27, egg said:

Jesus wept. I cba to even start responding to that nonsense. Let's agree to differ. 

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No, that’s not allowed. You live in my country and a big beardy sky man says you have to live your life according to everything I say.

egg

egg

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 10:37, Lighthouse said:

No, that’s not allowed. You live in my country and a big beardy sky man says you have to live your life according to everything I say.

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You're not covering yourself in glory here mate. Enjoy the football. 

Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 10:38, egg said:

You're not covering yourself in glory here mate. Enjoy the football. 

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Just pointing out the irony. "Let’s just agree to differ," is literally the exact thing that people have been campaigning for the right to say in the Middle East. The fact that you think you have the right to say that in an argument on the internet but Muslims don’t when they’re being executed for their sexuality is absurd. Never mind.

egg

egg

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 10:48, Lighthouse said:

Just pointing out the irony. "Let’s just agree to differ," is literally the exact thing that people have been campaigning for the right to say in the Middle East. The fact that you think you have the right to say that in an argument on the internet but Muslims don’t when they’re being executed for their sexuality is absurd. Never mind.

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It really isn't comparable. You're campaigning for change in a foreign country because you believe they need change. We have no idea if the people want it, but in any event, it has nothing to do with us. Your stance on Afghanistan misunderstands what's happened on the ground over there. People, and their families, have changed their position in society and practices based on what we facilitated, and have been dragged into the streets and killed because of it. It beggars belief how anyone can suggest that kind of meddling has helped the people of that country.

It's not our circus. 

 

  • Like 1
Weston Super Saint

Weston Super Saint

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 09:47, Lighthouse said:

I'll say it one last time because I'm bored with it now. THEY  are the ones saying that everybody should live by their beliefs. I am not telling anyone to live by anything. If a Qatari wants to wear a hijab, not eat pork, not drink alcohol and pray to Allah 462 times per day that's absolutely fine. If he's gay and thinks its a sin so marries a wife and lives a misserable life of denial trying to pray the gay away, also fine it's his life. 

 

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Maybe I missed it, where is that THEY are saying everybody should live by their beliefs?

  • Like 1
Tamesaint

Tamesaint

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 25/11/2022 at 09:59, sadoldgit said:

This explains why you  talk like you are still in the 20th century Duckie.

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Duckie - the 20th century ????

More like the 19th when "chicks" didn't have a vote, Johnny Foreigner knew that a gunboat was coming his way if he misbehaved, gay men were persecuted  and when the memory of Waterloo was still fresh for the  Froggies. 😁

Edited by Tamesaint
The Left Back

The Left Back

Posted
Posted

Country A oppresses some it's people

Country A invites the world round for a footie tournament

Footie players and supporters from countries B, C and D decide to offer gestures of solidarity with the oppressed of country A

Country A clamps down on gestures of solidarity

Footie players and supporters from countries B, C and D either give up, try different gestures or kick the shit out of each other on a web forum about whether gestures are a good idea or not.

Seems simple enough to me.  What's the fuss about?

Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 17:38, The Left Back said:

Country A oppresses some it's people

Country A invites the world round for a footie tournament

Footie players and supporters from countries B, C and D decide to offer gestures of solidarity with the oppressed of country A

Country A clamps down on gestures of solidarity

Footie players and supporters from countries B, C and D either give up, try different gestures or kick the shit out of each other on a web forum about whether gestures are a good idea or not.

Seems simple enough to me.  What's the fuss about?

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What a noddy, “footie”!!!!

  • Haha 1
  • Confused 2
buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 25/11/2022 at 18:03, Lord Duckhunter said:

I’m glad people use it. It helps identify noddy supporters. 

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I didnt realise you ran a ranking system. Probably should have guessed. I thought you'd like "footie". Long established word for football, more popular usage than colloquial phrases like "ale house" and "tired old schtick"   

Edited by buctootim
egg

egg

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 18:02, Weston Super Saint said:

Aren't they asking people to respect their laws and beliefs whilst in their country rather than saying that everyone should live by their beliefs?

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Yep. A simple concept. Unless you don't understand it. Or pretend not to in order to be contrary. 

Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 18:02, Weston Super Saint said:

Aren't they asking people to respect their laws and beliefs whilst in their country rather than saying that everyone should live by their beliefs?

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  On 25/11/2022 at 18:42, egg said:

Yep. A simple concept. Unless you don't understand it. Or pretend not to in order to be contrary. 

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No, I’ll say it again slowly. It’s gay rights for gay Qataris, in Qatar. Gay Qataris have the same right to their own beliefs as Islamic fundamentalist Qataris, that’s the issue here. 

egg

egg

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 19:08, Lighthouse said:

 

No, I’ll say it again slowly. It’s gay rights for gay Qataris, in Qatar. Gay Qataris have the same right to their own beliefs as Islamic fundamentalist Qataris, that’s the issue here. 

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According to you, who it has fuck all to do with. Qatar domestic issues and gay rights is a matter for Qatar and it's people. This is boring af mate. I said earlier let's agree to differ and you came back with some nonsense. Have the last word if it'll cheer you up. 

buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 25/11/2022 at 18:02, Weston Super Saint said:

Aren't they asking people to respect their laws and beliefs whilst in their country rather than saying that everyone should live by their beliefs?

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To be fair to them they arent as strict on visitors as Qatari citizens. I read you can get a hotel room as a non married couple for example, which Qataris cant. Have a beer in some licenced places etc. Ditto in places like morocco 

Edited by buctootim
Weston Super Saint

Weston Super Saint

Posted
Posted
  On 25/11/2022 at 20:39, buctootim said:

To be fair to them they arent as strict on visitors as Qatari citizens. I read you can get a hotel room as a non married couple for example, which Qataris cant. Have a beer in some licenced places etc. Ditto in places like morocco 

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So they're definitely not asking tourists to behead homosexuals ;) 

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