The RB Conundrum

[Dusic]

With a hamstring injury KWP could be out for a while, and whilst it is unthinkably crazy to have a PL squad in a covid season with only one RB and one LB that is the reality.

Even if he misses a month, that will likely be 6 so games - and clearly we are going to need to find a way to cover his absence and be able to win without him, otherwise it will become a season defining awful run.

So...what do we do. As I see it the main options are:

1. Change to 3 CBs now Salisu is fit and play someone like Armstrong or Redmond as a RWB. Personally I dislike this option because:

- It removes at least one pressing option, which is the basis of our entire attack.

- It forces our immobile CBs to defend more in wide areas.

- Armstrong, who would be the prime candidate is needed in goalscoring positions

2. Play a CB at RB, presumably Jack Stephens or possibly even Bednarek. This is also not an ideal option as its a totally different position to CB. Stephens is more suited than Bednarek as is better on the ball but as seen vs Newcastle he was awful, and easily exposed by a good player on that side. It alao adds nothing to our attacking play at all.

3. Hope Diallo is fit soon and play him at RB. This is probably the best option in theory but there is no sign Diallo will available any time soon, so is probably not viable.

4. Convert an attacker into a RB, primarily either Armstrong or Redmond. I think Armstrong possibly could work, and it would allow the same formation but he is better used further forward and would probably get ripped apart.

5. Hope that an U23 steps up. Unlikely as Ramsay appears to be the most likely candidate and he is just not up to PL level, and at 20 has made no impression in senior football at any level. Quite damning of the setup really that such a chance comes along and there isnt anyone good enough to fill in for a few games.

My opinion: it really shows how mismanaged the squad profile is that one injury leads us to this point. Probably option 1 or 2 is the least awful - but neither is good - until Diallo is back which at least gives Ralph more options.

Heaven help us if Bertrand is unable to play all the remaining games.or if KWP has a bad hamstring injury and misses a big chunk of the remaining games.

 

[S-Clarke]

Really poor squad management as you say, so frustrating we are in this position. I guess part of it is because we need to so creative in moving players out, in order to open up the space for incomings. That's just pulled away at our squad depth over the years though.

Academy kids aren't up to it, feels like 2008 all over again when we are throwing Ramsay and the likes onto the field - he'll never be good enough. You can usually tell pretty quickly.

Best option for me is 3 at the back, Salisu left sided, Bednarek right sided, Vestergaard in the middle. Bertrand LWB and JWP RWB. 

We will lose something in the middle of the park though - step forward Alex Jankewitz - your time is now (take 2).

Edited 15 February, 2021 by S-Clarke

[LGTL]

I’d put JWP there as soon as Diallo is fit. I fail to see any other alternative. 

[skintsaint]

Put Redmond there, get him out the fucking attack.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I think the best, realistic one, is JWP moves there and someone else plays in CM. Do we know timelines for Diallo and KWP?

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Jeremy Corbyn said:

I think the best, realistic one, is JWP moves there and someone else plays in CM. Do we know timelines for Diallo and KWP?

I think both are hamstring injuries, so prob not anytime soon for either. Same as Theo.

[LuckyNumber7]

I said before the Newcastle game that Stephens is an awful full back and that game only reinforced my view. None of our CBs are suited to playing RB especially with the attacking duties it carries in the system we play.

It's shambolic that we're even in this position tbh and you have to feel for Ralph.

Of the options listed I would probably go for JWP to play at RB but that can't happen until Diallo is fit.

I would hope the club are looking at any free transfer options available, even Cuco Martina until the end of the season would be better than the options above!

[Greenridge]

11 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I think both are hamstring injuries, so prob not anytime soon for either. Same as Theo.

I know most clubs are complaining wrt injuries in this compacted schedule but we seem to have issues that raise the question over one or more of fitness, training techniques, playing style or whether our behind the scenes sports science team are up to the job.

[Convict Colony]

Came in here thinking this was about Red Bull.

[Hawkswood]

I played semi pro for years ( not that Im claiming to be some sort of authority) but I think having been part of a decent playing level for years is that the one thing that normally screwed us in this situation was changing formation.  Thats something you should only ever do as a last resort as it throws everyone out of sync. They dont know their positions, they lose runners etc. Having been part of this for years it was always and only as a last resort but Im sure someone will see it differently.  Thats just been my experience.

[S-Clarke]

11 minutes ago, Hawkswood said:

I played semi pro for years ( not that Im claiming to be some sort of authority) but I think having been part of a decent playing level for years is that the one thing that normally screwed us in this situation was changing formation.  Thats something you should only ever do as a last resort as it throws everyone out of sync. They dont know their positions, they lose runners etc. Having been part of this for years it was always and only as a last resort but Im sure someone will see it differently.  Thats just been my experience.

Did you play RB?

Get your boots....

[the saint in winchester]

Preference would be Kayne Ramsey, a genuine RB. Second choice : Stephens. Reluctant option : move JWP as a stand-in.

[John Boy Saint]

7 minutes ago, the saint in winchester said:

Preference would be Kayne Ramsey, a genuine RB. Second choice : Stephens. Reluctant option : move JWP as a stand-in.

I say Ramsey too. The lad had a baptism of fire in the Man U game but for me was the brighter glow in a pretty dim night, might be scarred by the scoreline, but was likely more worried about Djenepo over with him flying into challenges like a Pigeon tagged by a passing car, a few of which he was lucky to get away with.

[Pip]

Play Ramsay and make sure he has decent protection.

[M271]

I didn't watch the match yesterday. How did Salisu get on a RB yesterday once KWP had gone off? Better than Stephens when he stepped in a RB?

[S-Clarke]

2 minutes ago, M271 said:

I didn't watch the match yesterday. How did Salisu get on a RB yesterday once KWP had gone off? Better than Stephens when he stepped in a RB?

He didn't play RB. 

We went to 3 at the back, Salisu as left sided CB, Bednarek as right sided CB.

Moussa as RWB.

[aintforever]

26 minutes ago, Pip said:

Play Ramsay and make sure he has decent protection.

I would probably go with this. Move players from other positions and you just end up being weaker in two positions instead of one, we definitely don't want to lose JWP or Armstrong from the midfield.

Mental that we have let ourselves get into this situation, any weakness in the Premier tends to be ruthlessly exploited. Playing someone out of position for a whole game at right-back is different to having them fill in for 20mins because the opposition will be set up to take advantage.

Edited 15 February, 2021 by aintforever

[davefizzy14]

I thought Ramsay did ok the other week, he would be my pick.

[M271]

33 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

He didn't play RB. 

We went to 3 at the back, Salisu as left sided CB, Bednarek as right sided CB.

Moussa as RWB.

OK thanks. All I remember seeing on the BBC match text and SW match thread was that KWP had come off and Salisu came on, I didn't realise that there had been a change of shape.

[Chris cooper]

3 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

Really poor squad management as you say, so frustrating we are in this position. I guess part of it is because we need to so creative in moving players out, in order to open up the space for incomings. That's just pulled away at our squad depth over the years though.

Academy kids aren't up to it, feels like 2008 all over again when we are throwing Ramsay and the likes onto the field - he'll never be good enough. You can usually tell pretty quickly.

Best option for me is 3 at the back, Salisu left sided, Bednarek right sided, Vestergaard in the middle. Bertrand LWB and JWP RWB. 

We will lose something in the middle of the park though - step forward Alex Jankewitz - your time is now (take 2).

Bertrand will break down with that level of up and down work .. we should have adopted a plan b formation with 3 at the back asoon as 4-2-2-2 or 4-4-2 wasn’t working anymore.. valery then on the right could do the job and definitely shouldn’t have been loaned out,but the problem with that is Bertrand at his age getting up and down ....more options on the left for wing back system tho but Ralph being all or nothing 4-2-2-2/4-4-2 and loaning out out fullbacks has more or less thwarted the rest of the season .. orders from upstairs to offload is probably why ..and the academy kids just can’t be counted on or just not good enough..tella should be found a starting role further up the field imo .. looks like we have to start Ramsey until diallo is fit .. shambles is really an understatement.

[Roo1976]

1 hour ago, John Boy Saint said:

I say Ramsey too. The lad had a baptism of fire in the Man U game but for me was the brighter glow in a pretty dim night, might be scarred by the scoreline, but was likely more worried about Djenepo over with him flying into challenges like a Pigeon tagged by a passing car, a few of which he was lucky to get away with.

Very surprised that Djenepo didn't get blown over running onto the pitch and claiming whiplash.........

[qwertyell]

Go bold - give Nathan Tella a whirl. He's quick and enthusiastic. Has the strength of a kitten and looks like he might get lost running in a straight line, but hey.

Not going to make it as a top level winger/forward, so why not try and convert him into something useful? At worst, he'll be terrible - like everyone else.

All our options at RB without Walker-Peters are varying shades of shit, and the club should hang its head for allowing the manager to have no back up whatsoever - and not a single promising colt hiding in the ranks of our massively overhyped Academy.

It'll obviously be Stephens for the foreseeable future. And it'll be horrible.

[Wade Garrett]

Got to be 3 at the back for me.

It means our strongest players are on the pitch and we don’t have to shoehorn a RB in.

 

 

[SNSUN]

If we were ever going to play 3 at the back, then surely we would have kept Valery for the wing back position, a position he is ultimately more suited to than right back? That is why I don’t think 3 at the back is the option Ralph will go for. Not to mention it being the formation that resulted in the first 9 nil against Leicester before we reset and went 4222.

 

Ramsey is a possibility but I think Ralph has been burned a bit by having to use the youngsters recently and is probably worried about continuing the losing streak. 

 

JWP or Diallo at right back is probably the most natural option, probably Diallo as Ralph has mentioned before possibly being able to play full back. However, Diallo isn’t available and using JWP would weaken CM considerably.

 

So what I think will happen is I think Ralph will play Stephens or Bednarek there as we now have 4 fit centre backs.

[Matthew Le God]

7 minutes ago, SNSUN said:

If we were ever going to play 3 at the back, then surely we would have kept Valery for the wing back position, a position he is ultimately more suited to than right back? That is why I don’t think 3 at the back is the option Ralph will go for. Not to mention it being the formation that resulted in the first 9 nil against Leicester before we reset and went 4222.

We played 3 at the back as recently as the last game vs Wolves. When Walker-Peters went off, Hasenhuttl switched to 3 central defenders (Salisu, Vestergaard & Bednarek) and 2 wing backs (Bertrand & Djenepo). The commentators didn't realise the formation change but it was pretty clear that Bednarek was not playing right back, he was on the right of a three.

Very late in the game Vestergaard moved up front so the formation was all over the place by that point.

Edited 15 February, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[LaptopSaint]

Move JWP to RB, play Armstrong centre mid v Chelsea and once he's served his three match ban bring Jankewitz in v Leeds and hope he lasts more than two minutes. 

Adjusts tin hat and takes cover 

 

[Dusic]

2 hours ago, davefizzy14 said:

I thought Ramsay did ok the other week, he would be my pick.

I know he is a young lad making his way in the game but he didn't do ok. He seems to spend so much time on his backside, sliding around whereas good players stay on their feet.

He also didn't do ok vs Man City and Derby County two years ago which is why he didnt get a look in until there was nobody else.

He is 20 and has no experience of senior football which is a concern for him and probably a reflection of our lost youth setup - he isnt going to make it as a PL player, you can tell that from 3 or 4 games.

Plus for those mentioning Jankewitz... I highly doubt Ralph in any way trusts him to come in during a poor run of form...and who can blame him. I am fairly sure he was eligible for the cup game as suspensions are competition specific yet wasnt in the squad.

Edited 15 February, 2021 by Dusic

[The Curse of St Mary's]

5 minutes ago, LaptopSaint said:

Move JWP to RB, play Armstrong centre mid v Chelsea and once he's served his three match ban bring Jankewitz in v Leeds and hope he lasts more than two minutes. 

Adjusts tin hat and takes cover 

 

Jankewitz has already served his 3 game ban as FA cup counts 

[LaptopSaint]

2 minutes ago, The Curse of St Mary's said:

Jankewitz has already served his 3 game ban as FA cup counts 

Game on then. `Zero to hero.

[davefizzy14]

10 minutes ago, The Curse of St Mary's said:

Jankewitz has already served his 3 game ban as FA cup counts 

Be good to see Alex back

Edited 15 February, 2021 by davefizzy14

[Chris cooper]

I think the footballing gods have presented Jankewitz another chance !

grab it with both hands Alex ! Chance to be a hero 💪🏻

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

Did you play RB?

Get your boots....

I played RB

[egg]

4 hours ago, the saint in winchester said:

Preference would be Kayne Ramsey, a genuine RB. Second choice : Stephens. Reluctant option : move JWP as a stand-in.

Yep. He's the nearest thing to a fit right back that we have. We can't move JWP as we have no midfield options other than Chauke or Jankewitz(if available) or maybe shifting Armstrong inside.

It's a question of the least worst of several crap options, but going 3 at the back with a winger at  RWB against Alonso or Chilwell, plus one of Pulisic/Werner/Ziyech would be mental. 

[Baird of the land]

Play Stephens there

[davefizzy14]

40 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

Play Stephens there

Yes Jack or Kayne.

[Dig Dig]

3 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I played RB

Must have been a nightmare for the manager whenever you were asked to defend the near post at corners 

[Harry_SFC]

Anyone but Stephens 

[Dig Dig]

If KWP is out longer term with Diallo not available then JWP is the best option but would need to go to a 433 to try and make up what we lose in the middle. 

[woodsaint1]

Would personally go with JWP myself. Hes done very well there before (mugging off Zaha being the best memory). Does Ramsay not normally play CB for the B team anyways? Would give Jankewitz another go in the middle of the park until Diallo returns. It cant get any worse than his last game (can it?) and the kid is ready to make amends

[Whitey Grandad]

36 minutes ago, Dig Dig said:

Must have been a nightmare for the manager whenever you were asked to defend the near post at corners 

It was my team

[Saint Garrett]

Will be Stephens or Bednarek in a back 4 IMO until Diallo is back. I don’t see us playing 3 at the back, as it just doesn’t work with the tactics we want to play. We only did it Sat because we wanted to be more attacking cos we were losing. 

[Brumsaint]

People say: "Ralph has no plan B". 

Ralph tries plan B (playing three at the back).

Everyone says: "Please don't ever do that again!"

Desperate times, but not so bad that we should play 3 CBs.

[westmidlandsaint]

I take it we don't have a recall option on Valery? I'd personally go with Ramsey our CB's struggle at CB let alone moving to RB

[John Boy Saint]

15 hours ago, Dusic said:

I know he is a young lad making his way in the game but he didn't do ok. He seems to spend so much time on his backside, sliding around whereas good players stay on their feet.

Just about everyone slipped about at United due to the rain down that dugout side (as mentioned elsewhere Djenepo made it look like he was playing on Ice) - it also probably didn't help that you have been given your chance, and at Old Trafford too, and your mate is trying out the showers before 2 minutes of the game are up. Playing against a potent attack, one thought possibly trundling through his head "please please don't f**K it up, just win the ball" - again as I said previously, he was about the only bright spot in that game.

We don't have the money to go and splash out on a secondhand right back with a season or two on the clock - so we have to make do with what we have, there was obviously huge reservations about Valery and Vokins for them to be shipped out. Derby in the cup for Ramsey was 2 seasons ago, thats bloody harsh to make that then 18 year old still wear the badge from that night - if we did that for all the nippers given a spin, then we may as well pack up the academy. And as I have also said before, actually sat in the ground watching Wayne Bridge, Gareth Bale, Luke Shaw, when they came in for the first couple of games they all looked a bit shaky but the seasoned pro alongside them kept an eye on them and helped them through. Jan had his hands full at OT that night so the lad had to muddle through pretty much on his own.

[Forester]

I recall Stephens played full back earlier in the season and we kept a clean sheet.  Think it was to cover Bertrand.

I don’t think he was particularly culpable up at Newcastle where the main offender was Bednarek, aided and abetted by McCarthy.

[Whitey Grandad]

22 minutes ago, Forester said:

I recall Stephens played full back earlier in the season and we kept a clean sheet.  Think it was to cover Bertrand.

I don’t think he was particularly culpable up at Newcastle where the main offender was Bednarek, aided and abetted by McCarthy.

My problem with Stephens is that the game goes over his head, both figuratively and literally. He seems unable to judge the flight of the ball and ends up jumping under it allowing a forward to get a clean header.

True, he has scored a couple of goals in the past from set pieces but these tend to be glancing headers. As a centre back I want to see him getting his forehead on the ball and thumping it back up the pitch.

[SKD]

Personally, I’d rather us play Stephens at RB than Ramsey, especially against Chelsea who’ll have Wener on the left wing. 
 

KWP is so important to us not just defensively but going forward as well. We are simply going to have to change our play a bit. 
 

personally, I’d go Stephens, Vestergaard (RCB) Salisu (LCB) Bertrand and use JV’s diagonal passes to Bertrand who’ll push up (like KWP) and have Stephens tuck in a bit more, like Bertrand does currently. 
 

it works so well down the right, as Armstrong is soo good at dropping into the 10 creating space for KWP, miniamino will just need to do the same (or swap their sides). 
 

 

[Viking Saint]

4 hours ago, westmidlandsaint said:

I take it we don't have a recall option on Valery? I'd personally go with Ramsey our CB's struggle at CB let alone moving to RB

Don't know, but this would be my preference. Better option than shoe-horning someone in who isn't a RB

[Shroppie]

On 15/02/2021 at 13:08, skintsaint said:

Put Redmond there, get him out the fucking attack.

I would consider this as a serious option, although I assume the suggestion was a bit of a joke. He isn't contributing much in attack but does get back to help in defence and has a bit of pace as a wing back

 

 

[the saint in winchester]

I'm surprised we aren't dipping into the free agent market to cover KWP's absence.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/spieler/vertragslosespieler/statistik/1/plus//galerie/0?ausrichtung=alle&spielerposition_id=5&land_id=alle&altersklasse=&wettbewerb_id=alle&seit=alle&yt0=Show

Aside from Cuco Martina, I see Eric Lichaj there. Experience in championship.