Player mentality and lack of leaders.

[sadoldgit]

We weren't having these conversations when we were sitting at the top of the table with the same players and manager. We have been through the worse period of injuries I have known at the club and have been on the receiving end of a number of appalling decisions which, on occasions, have probably cost us points. We have an average team who need everything to fall into place on a regular basis to get results but have proved to be a match for anyone when we get it right. We are within sniffing distance of a trip to Wembley and there is no reason why we can’t finish in mid table. JWP is a perfectly good captain. We need to hold our nerve, keep working hard and things will improve again.

[SKD]

On 16/02/2021 at 18:01, sadoldgit said:

We weren't having these conversations when we were sitting at the top of the table with the same players and manager. We have been through the worse period of injuries I have known at the club and have been on the receiving end of a number of appalling decisions which, on occasions, have probably cost us points. We have an average team who need everything to fall into place on a regular basis to get results but have proved to be a match for anyone when we get it right. We are within sniffing distance of a trip to Wembley and there is no reason why we can’t finish in mid table. JWP is a perfectly good captain. We need to hold our nerve, keep working hard and things will improve again.

But isnt that the point. When things are going well, we’re a great team. When things get tough, we crumble. Time and time again. 
 

as I’ve said, I’ve not got anything against JWP as captain, I think he’s the best choice, but for me he’s not a leader. Our issue is that we have no leaders and no fight when things get tough. As shown by 2 9-0 defeats. 
 

I agree that we’ve had the rough end of the stick recently, but it feels like the players use that as an excuse to just give up. We’ve thrown away leads way before this as well, it’s been on going for years now. 

Edited 18 February, 2021 by SKD

[Lord Duckhunter]

7 hours ago, SKD said:

But isnt that the point. When things are going well, we’re a great team. When things get tough, we crumble. Time and time again. 
 

as I’ve said, I’ve not got anything against JWP as captain, I think he’s the best choice, but for me he’s not a leader. Our issue is that we have no leaders and no fight when things get tough. As shown by 2 9-0 defeats. 
 

I agree that we’ve had the rough end of the stick recently, but it feels like the players use that as an excuse to just give up. We’ve thrown away leads way before this as well, it’s been on going for years now. 

Exactly right. 
 

The fact we were top of the league and capable of going on good runs, makes our capitulations even worse. You can’t say Fulham are mentally weak, they’re just shite. You don’t get 2 nine nil stuffings, or throw away as many points as we do, unless you’re mentally soft. Some people don’t seem to understand. 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Our pressing style makes our players over perform, but it also means that they get tired in the second half if they've been playing a lot of games, and that they struggle when they've only got 10 men.

I'm not at all convinced our players are a bunch of pussies who can't hack it when they're losing

[Teddeer]

27 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Our pressing style makes our players over perform, but it also means that they get tired in the second half if they've been playing a lot of games, and that they struggle when they've only got 10 men.

I'm not at all convinced our players are a bunch of pussies who can't hack it when they're losing

Agree. It is the system that is causing so many capitulations because it is impossible to maintain a high energy pressing game for 90 minutes in every match over a season. Ralph needs to fix this or it will continue to happen.

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Our pressing style makes our players over perform, but it also means that they get tired in the second half if they've been playing a lot of games, and that they struggle when they've only got 10 men.

 

Luckily Newcastle only had 9 when we were knackered second half, so we only ended up with a narrow defeat. 
 

Do you think we’re the only side that presses, or gets tired when they’re down to 10. How come others don’t get stuffed 9. 

[Dusic]

57 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Luckily Newcastle only had 9 when we were knackered second half, so we only ended up with a narrow defeat. 
 

Do you think we’re the only side that presses, or gets tired when they’re down to 10. How come others don’t get stuffed 9. 

Surely you can apreciate the circumstances behind the 9? Its obviously poor to concede that many, but given the well documented injuries, opposition, red card, VAR its pretty clear to me how it happened.

Re pressing, certainly not the only side that does it, but most of the others are teams who certainly have deeper squads and I don't doubt that a decent part of our poor form is due to the level of injuries and therefore inability to rotate or make much difference from the bench.

Look at Villa - they have virtually had the same XI every game all season, with usually only one or two missing at most. Factor in their unfortunately fortunate break due to covid just when others were facing an intense schedule and it shows in their results. We have gone to players who are nowhere near PL level and those players will be exposed, Villa as an example have been able to pick a consistent side and their form has largely remained consistent too.

Most of our key players have been absolutely flogged this season, and playing an intense style will eventually take its toll in these circumstances.

Fans would have moaned had Ralph chucked in the cup - IMO very brave selections from him as he knew it would make the league games much tougher, as has been the case, and from his position the league is what is scrutinised and will ultimately affect his reputation. Fair play to him.

Edited 18 February, 2021 by Dusic

[Saint Fan CaM]

I don’t think it’s about one individuals leadership qualities as such - that’s not the expectation nowadays. What the Saints model requires is intelligent people that understand a system rather than have an inbuilt natural grit and ability in their game. Vardy is a perfect example in my opinion - probably not going to get a Masters degree any time soon, but he has an natural ability to read the game, be in the right place at the right time, move the ball accurately etc. etc. I think Ings has that largely too, but I doubt he’ll be given the C armband.  JWP by contrast is a scholar and that’s why he gets the Managers vote for the Captaincy.

That’s generally the type of player we develop and/or buy...scholarly athletes, not natural gifted, hard nosed, grafting footballers.  So when the science or learnt system breaks down and the going gets tough, there’s nothing for them to fall back on.

[SKD]

13 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Our pressing style makes our players over perform, but it also means that they get tired in the second half if they've been playing a lot of games, and that they struggle when they've only got 10 men.

I'm not at all convinced our players are a bunch of pussies who can't hack it when they're losing

 

13 hours ago, Teddeer said:

Agree. It is the system that is causing so many capitulations because it is impossible to maintain a high energy pressing game for 90 minutes in every match over a season. Ralph needs to fix this or it will continue to happen.

Ahhh yes. It must have been that high intensity style to blame for all those leads thrown away under Mark Hughes as well. That Bloody playbook. 

 

10 hours ago, Dusic said:

Surely you can apreciate the circumstances behind the 9? Its obviously poor to concede that many, but given the well documented injuries, opposition, red card, VAR its pretty clear to me how it happened.

Re pressing, certainly not the only side that does it, but most of the others are teams who certainly have deeper squads and I don't doubt that a decent part of our poor form is due to the level of injuries and therefore inability to rotate or make much difference from the bench.

Look at Villa - they have virtually had the same XI every game all season, with usually only one or two missing at most. Factor in their unfortunately fortunate break due to covid just when others were facing an intense schedule and it shows in their results. We have gone to players who are nowhere near PL level and those players will be exposed, Villa as an example have been able to pick a consistent side and their form has largely remained consistent too.

Most of our key players have been absolutely flogged this season, and playing an intense style will eventually take its toll in these circumstances.

Fans would have moaned had Ralph chucked in the cup - IMO very brave selections from him as he knew it would make the league games much tougher, as has been the case, and from his position the league is what is scrutinised and will ultimately affect his reputation. Fair play to him.

Whilst I agree we were in for a hiding at United that night, no premier league team should lose 9-0 (I mean villa u18’s only lost 6-0 to Liverpool). We quit and gave up, it’s happened twice now. Ralph should have shut up shop at 2 or 3-0 down, but players need to take responsibility. 
 

Newcastle showed how to defend with 9 men and backs against the wall, we don’t have that fight in us. 

[egg]

10 hours ago, Dusic said:

Surely you can apreciate the circumstances behind the 9? Its obviously poor to concede that many, but given the well documented injuries, opposition, red card, VAR its pretty clear to me how it happened.

I'm with Duck on this, and I hope that the players aren't getting the "there there, it's not your fault" message. It was. 

They capitulated, pure and simple. Sure, we got rough decisions in the Utd game but none of the circumstances excuse such a poor performance and result. 

If we had natural leaders out there that wouldn't have happened. Its not all shouting and balling, but players able to raise the spirits and encourage. We have none that - just lads programmed to do a job. If had a Tony Adams type rather than Stephens, a Noble rather than JWP, neither 9 nil would have happened imo. 

[UpweySaint]

37 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm with Duck on this, and I hope that the players aren't getting the "there there, it's not your fault" message. It was. 

They capitulated, pure and simple. Sure, we got rough decisions in the Utd game but none of the circumstances excuse such a poor performance and result. 

If we had natural leaders out there that wouldn't have happened. Its not all shouting and balling, but players able to raise the spirits and encourage. We have none that - just lads programmed to do a job. If had a Tony Adams type rather than Stephens, a Noble rather than JWP, neither 9 nil would have happened imo. 

If we had Noble in our side instead of JWP we would be in, or very close to, the relegation zone.  

[egg]

3 minutes ago, UpweySaint said:

If we had Noble in our side instead of JWP we would be in, or very close to, the relegation zone.  

You're missing the point. We wouldn't have lost 9 nil, twice, with someone like him in our midfield. Nobody gave proper leadership to the players in those games. That's the point. 

[Jeremy]

A natural leader doesn't necessarily have to be the best player in the side but he probably needs one of the highest work rates. Not sure that yelling and abusing other players are leadership qualities. Kane Williamson, the NZ cricket captain, is very low key and self-deprecating. He's also possibly one of our greatest batsmen. Richie McCaw was a very successful All Blacks captain. He was usually into everthing. I know football is different to cricket and rugby but a captain inspires other people in the team try harder. What about Ings as captain?

Edited 19 February, 2021 by Jeremy

[Dusic]

59 minutes ago, SKD said:

 

Ahhh yes. It must have been that high intensity style to blame for all those leads thrown away under Mark Hughes as well. That Bloody playbook. 

 

Whilst I agree we were in for a hiding at United that night, no premier league team should lose 9-0 (I mean villa u18’s only lost 6-0 to Liverpool). We quit and gave up, it’s happened twice now. Ralph should have shut up shop at 2 or 3-0 down, but players need to take responsibility. 
 

Newcastle showed how to defend with 9 men and backs against the wall, we don’t have that fight in us. 

Out of interest when you say "Ralph should have shut up shop at 2 or 3-0 down", what do you mean, in terms of actually how you do that?

[Badger]

On 15/02/2021 at 15:33, Mystic Force said:

I really rate JWP as a footballer, but whenever I hear him him speak he does not inspire me. He sounds more like the corporate spokesman rolled out to make a statement with no content or meaning. What you want from a leader is inspiration, something that gives everyone that little extra spark. You can have different leadership styles that can be successful.

I think of the captain being the on pitch as the supervisor of the workforce, helping everyone achieve the bosses goals. That person has to lead by example, coordinate activity, be able to get people to do their job, project positivity and communicate the bigger picture.

 

You mean he comes across as reasonably intelligent and articulate rather than some of the gum chewing types that are often rolled out in front of the cameras ? 

On 15/02/2021 at 18:08, VectisSaint said:

The obvious leader is Danny Ings. That said I'm not a great believer in the captain being a striker. The best captains are always midfield, for obvious reasons. 

Not sure Ings has any more gravitas about him to make him a better captain than JWP, probably not to be honest. Don't necessarily disagree with you about MF being an ideal position to influence things on the pitch (Ball and Case being obvious examples), but I recall an interview with Keegan saying that in his view defenders were the best placed to lead as they were constantly trying to organise on the pitch. . He also suggested this is why they made better managers than forwards - his view at the time before he took the Newcastle job. Chris Nicholl was the example he used

[Teddeer]

34 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Out of interest when you say "Ralph should have shut up shop at 2 or 3-0 down", what do you mean, in terms of actually how you do that?

Most teams, as soon as they go down to 10 men, play with one forward and two rigid banks of 4. It is sensible and it makes it tough for the opposition to break you down. Not sure what we did in either of the 9-0 defeats but we were certainly easy to break down.

[Matthew Le God]

22 minutes ago, Teddeer said:

Most teams, as soon as they go down to 10 men, play with one forward and two rigid banks of 4. It is sensible and it makes it tough for the opposition to break you down. Not sure what we did in either of the 9-0 defeats but we were certainly easy to break down.

Saints played 441 after Jankewitz was sent off. Adams was upfront on his own and Ings played on the left.

[UpweySaint]

1 hour ago, egg said:

You're missing the point. We wouldn't have lost 9 nil, twice, with someone like him in our midfield. Nobody gave proper leadership to the players in those games. That's the point. 

I’m not missing the point at all. If we had Noble instead of JWP we would have far fewer points and two drubbings would be the least our worries.

I don’t agree with the assumption that because JWP doesn’t yell he’s not demonstrating leadership. If that was all it took to achieve results on a football pitch Roy Keane would be berating Sunderland to a league and cup double from the sidelines rather than becoming a parody of himself on social media.

Our recent run aside we’ve had some top quality results and performances this season. Even taking into account our current run we’re still overachieving.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, egg said:

You're missing the point. We wouldn't have lost 9 nil, twice, with someone like him in our midfield. Nobody gave proper leadership to the players in those games. That's the point. 

Yep,  the first Saints team i really watched was one with Jimmy Case in it. He wasn't the greatest player, but he was a real leader on the pitch and you could see him giving out instructions, bollockings and praise when needed all through the game. We've not had a proper captain for years. Prowse is the poster boy for the academy but we are a team of nice lads, as others have said great when things are going well but go to pieces when things are against us. There is only so much the manager can do from the touchline. You rarely see any of our players having a go at each other when one of them makes a mistake. 

[SKD]

1 hour ago, Dusic said:

Out of interest when you say "Ralph should have shut up shop at 2 or 3-0 down", what do you mean, in terms of actually how you do that?

Remove Ings from LM (and so deep he was practically a LB), remove Djenepo from RM, offering 0 cover defensively to our young lad at RB. 
 

Armstrong isn’t a 6, but maybe not much could have been done about that. 
 

Perhaps move to a back 5. I don’t know, I’m not paid millions a year to make those calls. But I certainly wouldn’t have left 5 attacking players on the pitch with 10 men and 3-0 down. 

[SKD]

45 minutes ago, UpweySaint said:

I’m not missing the point at all. If we had Noble instead of JWP we would have far fewer points and two drubbings would be the least our worries.

I don’t agree with the assumption that because JWP doesn’t yell he’s not demonstrating leadership. If that was all it took to achieve results on a football pitch Roy Keane would be berating Sunderland to a league and cup double from the sidelines rather than becoming a parody of himself on social media.

Our recent run aside we’ve had some top quality results and performances this season. Even taking into account our current run we’re still overachieving.

You are missing the point. No one is claiming they’d rather have Noble than JWP. What they’re saying is that a player like Noble (I.e mentally) would have rattled a few heads at maybe 6-0 and we don’t go on and get embarrassed. At least 3 goals were just from us giving up and not putting our body on the line or the extra effort needed to win the header. 
 

Clearly leadership isn’t all that is needed be get results. Talent, luck and intelligence is also required, but a team without leadership and mental fight, will get nowhere, regardless of ability. Look at Arsenal for the past 15 years. 

Edited 19 February, 2021 by SKD

[UpweySaint]

27 minutes ago, SKD said:

You are missing the point. No one is claiming they’d rather have Noble than JWP. What they’re saying is that a player like Noble (I.e mentally) would have rattled a few heads at maybe 6-0 and we don’t go on and get embarrassed. At least 3 goals were just from us giving up and not putting our body on the line or the extra effort needed to win the header. 
 

Clearly leadership isn’t all that is needed be get results. Talent, luck and intelligence is also required, but a team without leadership and mental fight, will get nowhere, regardless of ability. Look at Arsenal for the past 15 years. 

I’m not missing it, I just don’t agree. I think it’s speculative to suggest we’d have faired any better than we did with a Noble type player. 
 

The Leicester game was a shocker, we capitulated spectacularly, it happens. The 9 is the bit that stands out but you’ll find plenty of examples of teams in bad shape collapsing. But it led to Ralph and the players turning around and going back to a style of play thats had us playing above our level for the most part, does the form in 2020 not speak to positive characteristics within the squad? 
 

The Utd game was what it was. Down to ten in minutes, injury ravaged against a superior side at their best with a twelfth man on their side. What outcome did anybody expect? If we only lost 5-1 would we not be having a collective meltdown? Without Mike Dean/VAR the game would have never finished 9-0. Can we honestly blame the players for having their heads drop during that fiasco? 
 

Broader perspective where should we be as a club with the financial mess we are in and the squad we have? The fact relegation is almost unthinkable this season and we’re still going in the cup is really good going in my eyes. Surely the players get credit for this as must as they deserve criticism for the poor form? 

[VectisSaint]

2 hours ago, Badger said:

You mean he comes across as reasonably intelligent and articulate rather than some of the gum chewing types that are often rolled out in front of the cameras ? 

Not sure Ings has any more gravitas about him to make him a better captain than JWP, probably not to be honest. Don't necessarily disagree with you about MF being an ideal position to influence things on the pitch (Ball and Case being obvious examples), but I recall an interview with Keegan saying that in his view defenders were the best placed to lead as they were constantly trying to organise on the pitch. . He also suggested this is why they made better managers than forwards - his view at the time before he took the Newcastle job. Chris Nicholl was the example he used

Not sure I would take the view of KK as being particularly insightful. Not exactly the best manager was he, especially when it came to defensive tactics. I don't particularly disagree, defenders are next best choice to midfield for sure, in my view strikers and goalkeepers are no-nos, but the reality is that someone in the middle of the pitch is the ideal, just doesn't always work out that way.  

[captainchris]

26 minutes ago, UpweySaint said:

I’m not missing it, I just don’t agree. I think it’s speculative to suggest we’d have faired any better than we did with a Noble type player. 
 

The Leicester game was a shocker, we capitulated spectacularly, it happens. The 9 is the bit that stands out but you’ll find plenty of examples of teams in bad shape collapsing. But it led to Ralph and the players turning around and going back to a style of play thats had us playing above our level for the most part, does the form in 2020 not speak to positive characteristics within the squad? 
 

The Utd game was what it was. Down to ten in minutes, injury ravaged against a superior side at their best with a twelfth man on their side. What outcome did anybody expect? If we only lost 5-1 would we not be having a collective meltdown? Without Mike Dean/VAR the game would have never finished 9-0. Can we honestly blame the players for having their heads drop during that fiasco? 
 

Broader perspective where should we be as a club with the financial mess we are in and the squad we have? The fact relegation is almost unthinkable this season and we’re still going in the cup is really good going in my eyes. Surely the players get credit for this as must as they deserve criticism for the poor form? 

Unfortunately that is the exact attitude which gets you relegated.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

Think it's been said before, but am pretty sure that JWP only got the armband by default. Being the longest serving player does not make you captain material. It's a tough one to resolve, as the nature of our transfer policy dictates that we rarely sign players who are established. Not sure how the likes of Bertie etc would take to a young kid signing and then being made captain. Maybe that's what it needs, identify a leader in a position that we need improving and sign them. 

[Chickendippers]

I don't think it needs to be JWP necessarily but you can see the heads go down after we concede. Stephens is the only one that I've seen that barks orders and keeps people on their toes. It's just a shame he's not the best footballer. Somebody posted that Forster could be heard organising the defence over the effects mic. I just watch the heads go down and trudge back to the halfway line. Just for once I'd like one of them to point out out that one of their team mates has cocked up and that it musn't happen again.

[Teddeer]

33 minutes ago, Chickendippers said:

I don't think it needs to be JWP necessarily but you can see the heads go down after we concede. Stephens is the only one that I've seen that barks orders and keeps people on their toes. It's just a shame he's not the best footballer. Somebody posted that Forster could be heard organising the defence over the effects mic. I just watch the heads go down and trudge back to the halfway line. Just for once I'd like one of them to point out out that one of their team mates has cocked up and that it musn't happen again.

It's a fair point. Players should accept having mistakes pointed out to them because they might at least attempt to try not to repeat the error. The number of times we allow opponents to drift into our box unmarked when we have plenty of bodies around to get tight is ridiculous and it costs us lots of goals. Somebody needs to start pointing these things out on the pitch during matches rather than just shrugging then wash, rinse and repeat.

[saintbenny]

2 hours ago, SKD said:

Remove Ings from LM (and so deep he was practically a LB), remove Djenepo from RM, offering 0 cover defensively to our young lad at RB. 
 

Armstrong isn’t a 6, but maybe not much could have been done about that. 
 

Perhaps move to a back 5. I don’t know, I’m not paid millions a year to make those calls. But I certainly wouldn’t have left 5 attacking players on the pitch with 10 men and 3-0 down. 

Absolutely the above in an ideal world but did you see the bench that night?? We had 2 goalkeepers on it just to make up numbers. There was simply no senior member of the squad to bring on. Could have put some of the kids on but i bet the score score is still going to be the same. Not really sure what Ralph could have done to change or improve the team.

 The main reason we lost 9-0 that night was the sending off of Jan. If he stays on we dont lose 9-0..we still get smashed but it's not by 9. We completely lost the plot once he went off

Edited 19 February, 2021 by saintbenny

[egg]

3 hours ago, UpweySaint said:

I’m not missing the point at all. If we had Noble instead of JWP we would have far fewer points and two drubbings would be the least our worries.

I don’t agree with the assumption that because JWP doesn’t yell he’s not demonstrating leadership. If that was all it took to achieve results on a football pitch Roy Keane would be berating Sunderland to a league and cup double from the sidelines rather than becoming a parody of himself on social media.

Our recent run aside we’ve had some top quality results and performances this season. Even taking into account our current run we’re still overachieving.

I have not said that a captain needs to shout to demonstrate leadership. They need to lead, encourage, motivate, put arms around sunken shoulders, etc. None of our players do that, and certainly not our captain.

This is not a Noble vs JWP best player discussion. JWP is better all day long. It's a leader on the pitch discussion, but highlighting the obvious that Noble is the better player and skimming over the fact that we have no on field leadership adds nothing to the discussion.

If you genuinely think that our lack of on field leadership is not an issue then let's agree to differ. 

 

 

[egg]

3 hours ago, Turkish said:

Yep,  the first Saints team i really watched was one with Jimmy Case in it. He wasn't the greatest player, but he was a real leader on the pitch and you could see him giving out instructions, bollockings and praise when needed all through the game. We've not had a proper captain for years. Prowse is the poster boy for the academy but we are a team of nice lads, as others have said great when things are going well but go to pieces when things are against us. There is only so much the manager can do from the touchline. You rarely see any of our players having a go at each other when one of them makes a mistake. 

Yes, my point entirely. A captain isn't just there to deal with the coin toss, but in reality that's all JWP brings to the role. In fairness to Stephens, he at least can be heard talking to the defence, ditto Forster when he plays. The importance of a respected talker on the pitch can't be underestimated - you take Coady out of the team at Wolves and replace him with an equally able CB, you end up with a weaker defence because of what he brings as a leader and talker. If you replace JWP and replace with an equivalent player but who leads and motivates, imo you have a stronger team. I say this as someone who's played and captained at a reasonable level, and from what I see (and now hear on the TV in empty stadiums) as a fan.

[Lord Duckhunter]

If we’d have gone down to 9 for as long as Newcastle did, we’d have got beat. 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Sunderland lost 8-0 to us with Lee Cattermole in the midfield

[Super_Uwe]

On 16/02/2021 at 18:01, sadoldgit said:

We weren't having these conversations when we were sitting at the top of the table with the same players and manager. We have been through the worse period of injuries I have known at the club and have been on the receiving end of a number of appalling decisions which, on occasions, have probably cost us points. We have an average team who need everything to fall into place on a regular basis to get results but have proved to be a match for anyone when we get it right. We are within sniffing distance of a trip to Wembley and there is no reason why we can’t finish in mid table. JWP is a perfectly good captain. We need to hold our nerve, keep working hard and things will improve again.

Pretty much agree with you.

We had an incredible year of football prior to the start of the injuries. Champions League form over a sustained period since that Leicester result.

But we clearly have a very light squad and we have paid the price. RH has a very specific way of playing, and on the whole the players have done the job for him.

However it's clear he needs to rebuild in the league. We are in danger of getting sucked into a relegation scrap. I am glad to see him talking about playing a back 5 as we need to get some points on the board. A couple of 0-0s will do for me tbh 😃

And like you say, we really have got a chance in the cup this year. Overwhelming majority of Saints fans under the age of 50 won't have any personal memories of 1976, 45 years is plenty long enough for some major silverware (as much fun as the JPT was, it ain't major silverware!).

[saint1977]

I think JWP is fine as skipper, but him, Ings and Berty can’t do it all on their own. Stephens and Fraser are also vocal but have had form issues. The last real leader we had on the pitch and at the club was Jose. When he is finished playing, with Les now gone I’d love to see him on the coaching staff helping Ralph organise.

Best example I saw of leadership on the pitch was Southgate with Boro when it was 1-1 at SMS and Festa got sent off with 25 or so to go. Was marshalling the back and midfield expertly and WGS remarked on it afterwards, breaking them down was like trying to peel superglue.

I can appreciate that with the current owner that we are going for re-sale on buying players but I do think there’s scope for one older head every summer window to bring know-how, implementation/adaption of Ralph’s ideas during matches, and extra professionalism.

Look at Stoke fans reaction to Shawcross joining Miami, realising it is a good move for all parties but recognising him as one of their legends and proudest players to wear their shirt. It’s some of that spirit, with a sprinkling of ability, that fans are missing. They may not be at one club for 14 years like that but I hope Jose wasn’t the last of that type of player for us. Rickie was similar as well.

[Mystic Force]

The fact that we have injuries and a thin squad cannot be held up at the end of the season to add a few points to the table. We still have to play our games regardless, what an effective leader would do it squeeze a little more out of our existing team. I am sure that at some point all of you has worked under a bad leader and how that effected things and you have probably seen the benefit of a good leader in action. I don't think JWP is a bad leader just bland and uninspiring. What we need is someone who will help pick things up and arrest our slide. Having a poor 2nd half of the season might not get us relegated but it will not give us confidence going into the next season, making it harder. Now I suspect that we don't really have anyone at the club able to step into that role. Its hard being thrust into that role its effectively a functional supervisor (You have the responsibility but not the authority) so the only way you can succeed is by making people want to follow you.

[cambsaint]

 I think this topic is amazing. How can anyone who hasn't played in the team know whether he is an effecrive captain or not. There are many differerent ways of man mangement and it isn't one size fits all. Different personalities require different approaches.

Mike Brearley is probably the best English captain of any game and he used his brains not his mouth.

Having said that when I played rugby I found that Welsh or particularly New Zealand captains 

 required much more committment than English captains but it wasn't necessarily done by shouting, more by encouragement, although of course a captain has to be heard,

Non constructive criticism is imo a negative influence.

Unfortunately a certain section of Saints fans are the experts in that.

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Sunderland lost 8-0 to us with Lee Cattermole in the midfield

But they were shite. 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

But they were shite. 

Sunderland didn't lose every match 8-0. Why did they capitulate in that game? Cattermole should have shouted at them to pull up their bootstraps and keep it at their usual 4-0

[egg]

15 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Sunderland didn't lose every match 8-0. Why did they capitulate in that game? Cattermole should have shouted at them to pull up their bootstraps and keep it at their usual 4-0

Did he play when they lost 8 nil again a few months later? 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

17 minutes ago, egg said:

Did he play when they lost 8 nil again a few months later? 

Which game was that?

[egg]

Just now, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Which game was that?

Bingo. There wasn't one. You're comparing apples with potatoes. 

If Sunderland had done it twice then your Sunderland point would have some relevance. We did it twice, and piss poor on field leadership was a factor as to why. 

 

 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

8 minutes ago, egg said:

Bingo. There wasn't one. You're comparing apples with potatoes. 

If Sunderland had done it twice then your Sunderland point would have some relevance. We did it twice, and piss poor on field leadership was a factor as to why. 

 

 

I still think it's our system rather than a lack of "leadership" but there you go

[SKD]

12 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

I still think it's our system rather than a lack of "leadership" but there you go

if the same squad hadn’t have been throwing away leads under multiple managers, I’d tend to agree with you. 

[niceandfriendly]

20 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

If we’d have gone down to 9 for as long as Newcastle did, we’d have got beat. 

Undoubtedly. When their man got sent off I knew it was game over for us. We never do well against 10 men, and then 9 well... not 9 either apparently.

[Mosin]

do you not see JWP giving players instructions and so on all game? i see him telling ppl what to do all the time, i see him bursting a gut to recover the ball while most stroll, i see him up and down the pitch every single game, i see him hardly ever making any mistakes, see him creating chances every game, hard tackles organising the midfield and back line, he is every where, covers runners, dude does every thing plus more of what is required of a DM...fact remains that we still have to play under ralphs tactics, and when you lose a man in a full organised team acting as one whole pressing unit, missing one piece will make a huge deal, even more so when 99% of the players on the pitch are shattared from the congested fixture list as we have no squad depth and have been hit hard with injurys.

JWP has been our most consistent player since Ralph has been here and deserves to be captain, he is one of the best mids in the league and now after a few bad results due to injurys your all on his back even though during this period he has been the most consisant out of them all.

Always looking for a scapegoat.

Take JWP from this team and it will crumble...... lucky he is still here, him and Ings are the two best players at the club.

Our bad run is down to fatigue and injurys nothing more, stop crying. the same players and CAPTAIN have been one of the most consistent teams in the league this past year.

Wonder how many lack of leaders Liverpool had when the champions lost 7 - 2 to Aston Villa, Even had Van Dijk in that game the worlds best CB... Shit happens in football, Get over it.

[SaveloyMush]

54 minutes ago, Mosin said:

Our bad run is down to fatigue and injurys nothing more, stop crying. the same players and CAPTAIN have been one of the most consistent teams in the league this past year.

From top of the league to bottom of the form table, with a record number of consecutive defeats, in 3 months - the very definition of consistent!

[SKD]

On 19/02/2021 at 11:15, UpweySaint said:

I’m not missing it, I just don’t agree. I think it’s speculative to suggest we’d have faired any better than we did with a Noble type player. 
 

The Leicester game was a shocker, we capitulated spectacularly, it happens. The 9 is the bit that stands out but you’ll find plenty of examples of teams in bad shape collapsing. But it led to Ralph and the players turning around and going back to a style of play thats had us playing above our level for the most part, does the form in 2020 not speak to positive characteristics within the squad? 
 

The Utd game was what it was. Down to ten in minutes, injury ravaged against a superior side at their best with a twelfth man on their side. What outcome did anybody expect? If we only lost 5-1 would we not be having a collective meltdown? Without Mike Dean/VAR the game would have never finished 9-0. Can we honestly blame the players for having their heads drop during that fiasco? 
 

Broader perspective where should we be as a club with the financial mess we are in and the squad we have? The fact relegation is almost unthinkable this season and we’re still going in the cup is really good going in my eyes. Surely the players get credit for this as must as they deserve criticism for the poor form? 

Aye..? I mean the fact it was a record, which we’ve achieved twice out of 3 times in the history of the PL would suggest it doesn’t just happen. Had we walked from the Utd away losing 5 or 6-0, I think given the circumstances it would have been acceptable, but like you’ve said, their heads dropped as soon as something went against them... I.e my exact point, it seems to always happen. Weak mentality. Once is a freak, twice there’s an underlying issue. 

regarding your last point, this is what almost makes it worse. If we were just a shit team, with shit players and a shit manager, you could kind of accept it. But we’re not. When things are going for us we’re brilliant, it’s when things get tough we crumble because we don’t have the fight or desire (imo). 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Look at the third goal, then tell me JWP is captain material. Bottle job, ducked. Disgrace, I’d take the arm band off him for that.