Player mentality and lack of leaders.

[SKD]

I think our biggest issue and has been for a few seasons now (since the loss of VVD / Fonte) is the lack of leadership on the pitch. For me, JWP isn’t really captain material. A team player and a model pro, but not nasty enough. But that being said, the best choice at the moment (other than perhaps Romeu) and if we had other leaders in the dressing room then i wouldn’t mind, but we don’t.

It seems to me that our current set of players, mentally are weak as piss. A team full of losers, who when the going gets tough give up. None have won anything of note in their career (other than Bertrand, more out of luck than anything else), and I don’t think any of them have the mentality to in the future either so if any think they’re too good for the club, then get rid ASAP please. 

Armstrong and Romeu who are 2 of our better performers are the only players who’ve been in a winning team and I think that’s telling. 

Time and time again we’ve thrown away leads and this pre dates the current manager. And generally speaking it’s the same set of losers that are in the starting 11. A squad out together in another loser in Les Reed. 

The transfer strategy seems to have improved over the past 2 seasons since les’ sacking, but we desperately need an overhaul of the likes of Redmond, Bertrand, Stephens and even arguably bednerak and the keepers and to bring in some true leaders. A shrewd signing of the like that Leicester made in Johnny Evans is much needed. 
 

Until we improve the mentality and leadership in the squad, we’ll continue to throw away leads and probably lose 9-0 again whoever the manager. 
 

As I said, going in the right direction and I do not blame the current board or manager, but I do fear our transfer strategy won’t allow us to look at something much needed within the team. 
 

i truly hope the board back the manager regardless of what happens from now until end of the season. I’d much rather we got rid of a group of players, who give up and don’t try whenever the don’t fancy it, than the manager who clearly has the passion to improve us. Regardless of what you think of  his tactics, this squad cannot keep getting away with it. 

Edited 14 February, 2021 by SKD

[S-Clarke]

Absolutely nail on the head. We don't have anyone who is a leader in this side. I never hear our guys shouting, but I heard Coady today in the Wolves back 4 barking orders all game.

JWP as others have said...is kinda there by default really as there isn't anyone else in the squad with those attributes.

Vestergaard? Nope, doesn't strike me as a leader. Another technical player with the ball at his feet, but doesn't seem to have a 'nastiness' to him.

Bertrand? Been there, done that. Not a captain

Romeu? - Could argue he has the most 'nastiness', but he's still incredibly quiet on the pitch and doesn't strike me as a leader.

Those are prob your only other options bar JWP. Pretty poor all round and that is why we struggle to hold onto leads and why we struggle when we hit adversity. 

I reckon we'd be a better 'team' if we lost one of Ings/JWP and replaced them with a Coady type of leader.  We'd then have a bit more about us and I'm sure we'd see more games out. At the moment teams know if they get us on the back foot, we will fold 9/10. A really poor show for a team to be honest.

It's a shame we'd have to sacrifice starters to get those sorts of players though, but that's where we are. Ideally we'd supplement what we have, but we can't do that.

[trousers]

Fair point @SKD.

I think Bednarek would make a decent captain. He seems pretty vocal?

I've always said we're too nice though, and that starts with the captain. I would bet we are one of the teams with the lowest number yellow cards for dissent....

Edited 14 February, 2021 by trousers

[S-Clarke]

Just now, trousers said:

Fair point @SKD.

I think Bednarek would make a decent captain. He seems pretty vocal?

I've thought about that, but he's another one who seems to suffocate under pressure. Doesn't strike me as a captain to be honest, when the going gets tough he just becomes a mess.

It's not all about being vocal, although that's kinda important, it's being able to direct and lead other members of the team and pull them up if they need it. I don't see any of our players automatically doing that by habit. It's not in any of their make ups.

All of our players seem scared to take the lead.

If we go back to last season, PEH was another example of a poor captain. When the chips are down you need your captain to stand up and show an example, I remember in the final throws of a game we needed a breather...he had time to just bring the ball down and play it out...but he skied it up in the air in our penalty box and put us under pressure. That was our captain and it's no different now. 

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I've thought about that, but he's another one who seems to suffocate under pressure. Doesn't strike me as a captain to be honest, when the going gets tough he just becomes a mess.

It's not all about being vocal, although that's kinda important, it's being able to direct and lead other members of the team and pull them up if they need it. I don't see any of our players automatically doing that by habit. It's not in any of their make ups.

All of our players seem scared to take the lead.

If we go back to last season, PEH was another example of a poor captain. When the chips are down you need your captain to stand up and show an example, I remember in the final throws of a game we needed a breather...he had time to just bring the ball down and play it out...but he skied it up in the air in our penalty box and put us under pressure. That was our captain and it's no different now. 

Fair point

[Teddeer]

Captain is a tough spot to fill and even tougher to do it well. These players are all team mates and it goes against the grain to bawl out an individual who hasn't done his job. That takes courage and an ability to do it fairly without it sounding too harsh. It's a fine line. There are not many Roy Keane's around who would have no hesitation in ripping into a team mate. Not sure we have anyone who can do the job well.

On a connected note I do feel that McCarthy is nowhere near vocal enough. You don't hear anything from him. Compare that to the cup game against Wolves when you could clearly hear Forster shouting whenever the ball was near our area. It is a big part of the job of a goalkeeper to command his part of the field and let his team mates know when to push up or warn them of danger or call for the ball. McCarthy does not do this and is failing to warn his defenders of danger that he may spot before them because he can see all in front of him. Maybe this contributes to why Forster is not having so many saves to make.

[Lord Duckhunter]

As Roy Keane once said of Arsenal, we’re a team of son in laws. Seem like a nice bunch of lads, a credit to their families and model pros. Unfortunately, they’re also mentally weak. The senior pros OR, Armstrong  & Bertrand seem the quiet type as is our keeper and our big Viking centre half. It’s not about going around kicking people, but organising people, digging them out when standards slip. I know you can’t go round chinning your own players anymore but somebody needs to upset a few and install some standards amongst the players. It’s ok when the goings good, but when it’s not you need a couple of pirates to bang some heads together. 

[SKD]

 

26 minutes ago, Teddeer said:

Captain is a tough spot to fill and even tougher to do it well. These players are all team mates and it goes against the grain to bawl out an individual who hasn't done his job. That takes courage and an ability to do it fairly without it sounding too harsh. It's a fine line. There are not many Roy Keane's around who would have no hesitation in ripping into a team mate. Not sure we have anyone who can do the job well.

On a connected note I do feel that McCarthy is nowhere near vocal enough. You don't hear anything from him. Compare that to the cup game against Wolves when you could clearly hear Forster shouting whenever the ball was near our area. It is a big part of the job of a goalkeeper to command his part of the field and let his team mates know when to push up or warn them of danger or call for the ball. McCarthy does not do this and is failing to warn his defenders of danger that he may spot before them because he can see all in front of him. Maybe this contributes to why Forster is not having so many saves to make.

Very good point and I agree with this. McCarthy doesn’t seem to install confidence in the defence at the moment. Will Forster make a difference, who knows, but at this point it’s worth a try. 
 

Another player who is used to being in a winning team. 

25 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

As Roy Keane once said of Arsenal, we’re a team of son in laws. Seem like a nice bunch of lads, a credit to their families and model pros. Unfortunately, they’re also mentally weak. The senior pros OR, Armstrong  & Bertrand seem the quiet type as is our keeper and our big Viking centre half. It’s not about going around kicking people, but organising people, digging them out when standards slip. I know you can’t go round chinning your own players anymore but somebody needs to upset a few and install some standards amongst the players. It’s ok when the goings good, but when it’s not you need a couple of pirates to bang some heads together. 

To be honest, I think Bertrand is one of the worst for negative mentality and for giving up, seems to sulk every time something doesn’t go his way (one of the worst for the anti Puel camp, I believe). 
 

I dont know if it was losing players with the ability of Mane etc. Or leaders in the dressing room like Fonte and mentally VVD, but it seems the slump started when Puel arrived. Imo, he was too much of a nice guy and player power took over. 

I don’t think it’s all about shouting and being aggressive, it’s about having that self pride and desire to give 110%, regardless of how the result is going. To their credit, I do think OR and Armstrong do this. 

I look at Leeds, who player for player (especially defensively) aren’t as good as us, but the have the heart and desire. Had we been 4-0 down, we go on to lose 5 or 6 (or more).  
 

I mean the fact that The players didn’t like playing at home in front of our crowd says it it. Spineless cowards. 
 

Edited 14 February, 2021 by SKD

[Micky]

Unfortunately I think that is simply a case of weak willed players. Today we only needed one goal to get something out of it,  as we did at Newcastle, but we just never looked like doing it. 

If you want to see what should happen when a team gets embarrassed in the first half,  watch the Arsenal Leeds game tonight.  4 nil down just after half time,  they kept playing and had a right good go,  lost 4 - 2, but they never stopped trying.  They'll give us a hell of a thrashing in a couple of weeks if we don't find some bollocks from somewhere. 

We can point at VAR all we like, but it's up to us to create more clear cut chances,  put them away, and take VAR out of the equation. No moral fibre and sleepwalking to the Championship. 

[BallBoy]

Have to agree with all of this. As my username suggests, Alan Ball, was one of my all time favourites. He wasn't the most gifted player. Couldn't dribble, couldn't shoot, couldn't head a ball, couldn't even take a corner. But he had endless energy, was always talking, always knew where to be and did the simple things to perfection. Yes, he was a leader. Ironically JWP is very much like him as a player with the added bonus of dead ball brilliance. He has even added a touch of steel to his game and attitude. I find it difficult to understand why JWP has not found that little bit extra to be a real leader.

I have concluded that Bally had the advantage of being surrounded by winners. Keegan, Channon, Osgood, Rodrigues and more. Our current team has no history of winning. Mentally they are weak. Oh to have Bally back though. I have sort of defeated my own argument but it makes no difference. We have no-one like him.      

[Badger]

21 minutes ago, BallBoy said:

Have to agree with all of this. As my username suggests, Alan Ball, was one of my all time favourites. He wasn't the most gifted player. Couldn't dribble, couldn't shoot, couldn't head a ball, couldn't even take a corner. But he had endless energy, was always talking, always knew where to be and did the simple things to perfection. Yes, he was a leader. Ironically JWP is very much like him as a player with the added bonus of dead ball brilliance. He has even added a touch of steel to his game and attitude. I find it difficult to understand why JWP has not found that little bit extra to be a real leader.

I have concluded that Bally had the advantage of being surrounded by winners. Keegan, Channon, Osgood, Rodrigues and more. Our current team has no history of winning. Mentally they are weak. Oh to have Bally back though. I have sort of defeated my own argument but it makes no difference. We have no-one like him.      

Agree totally. Honourable mentions to Fonte and VVD even, but I’ve not really seen any driving leadership on the field since Jimmy Case left.

I always thought Schneiderlin might be destined for the role but obviously not.

One thing that occurs to me though is how modern professional footballers would react to someone like Ball giving them an on field bollocking on the pitch whilst playing together and if they’d respond and step up, or just think “oh, fuck off, not taking that from you” and downing tools further. 
 

Remember it was Ball who told the story of his time at Man City and looking round the dressing room at half time thinking ‘what’s the point ? I’m talking to 11 millionaires here, they’re not interested”. 

 

[Convict Colony]

Just out of interest which EPL teams do we think has a proper captain and is it as effective as we believe at turning around a match by going keano ?

Henderson maybe, Dr bruyne?

Not saying Kane after hearing him the doco.

Remember we had PEH and all his shoulder and arm waving didn't help too much.

 

 

[Badger]

In the past some of the best captains have been experienced, or just respected by the rest of the squad.

Not sure “respect” for anyone else is something the modern footballer understands as a concept nowadays. Which is why I mention Ball and the 11 millionaires in the post above.
More likely they look at whose got the biggest 4x4 or most tattoos on an arm. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

There’s a lack of on field leadership in the modern game, but there’s also a lack of managers installing a bit of fear, the hairdryer of past. It doesn’t even need to be the manger, my understanding is Joe Fagin dished out Bob Paisleys bollockings. At the moment there seems to be a coaching clique at most clubs, the assistants are like nodding dogs to the coach/manager. You can bet your life none of the players, and more importantly none of the coaching staff, will be challenging Ralph and wanting stuff sorted or changed. I bet a few players would be digging Lawrie or Ted out if they had a run like this. 

[benjii]

You don't have to be a dick or be "nasty" to be a captain, you just have to be able to keep calm, communicate, set the tempo and keep doing the basic things well under pressure. I am not sure it is leadership, per se, that we miss, it is more mental toughness.

The problem we have is that we have a number of players who are capable of doing really impressive things on their day, but regularly mis-execute simple actions when under pressure. They will play a ten yard pass just behind their team-mate, killing a move. They will take a sloppy second touch when they need to move the ball on.  

It manifests in different ways in different players.  Romeu is "nasty" but that yellow card he picked up yesterday was stupid and an example of someone making a poor choice in a moment of pressure. He knew he was taking a yellow when he made that challenge but there was no need to do so; it wasn't a foul that needed to be made, it was early in the match and he was on a knife-edge for the rest of the match as a result.

Redmond needed to play an easy 15 yard pass in front of Ings but chopped it too square.

Adams has no composure on his left foot.

Armstrong delays the pass for too long when carrying the ball laterally across the pitch.

Djenepo's legs behave like he has just fallen out of a deer's fanny.  Ditto Walcott often.

Mental strength is about composure and consistency. You can achieve that whether you are "nice" or "nasty" but you need to set the example and you need to be consistent in your own application. The reason the best captains are the best captains is because they are dependable.  Team mates look at them and they know exactly what they will get. 

 

[Portugalsaint]

I would like to see Jose Fonte back at Southampton on the defensive coaching staff.  He has the personality and mindset to organise.  During the euros of 2016 Fonte’s leadership qualities shone through to their great victory.

[Matthew Le God]

18 hours ago, SKD said:

 For me, JWP isn’t really captain material.

Why not?

18 hours ago, trousers said:

Fair point @SKD.

I think Bednarek would make a decent captain. He seems pretty vocal?

I've always said we're too nice though, and that starts with the captain. I would bet we are one of the teams with the lowest number yellow cards for dissent....

So to be a good leader you need to shout a lot? 🤔

We should hire Brian Blessed!

Quote

I would bet we are one of the teams with the lowest number yellow cards for dissent....

That is a good thing, not a bad thing!

[S-Clarke]

4 hours ago, benjii said:

You don't have to be a dick or be "nasty" to be a captain, you just have to be able to keep calm, communicate, set the tempo and keep doing the basic things well under pressure. I am not sure it is leadership, per se, that we miss, it is more mental toughness.

The problem we have is that we have a number of players who are capable of doing really impressive things on their day, but regularly mis-execute simple actions when under pressure. They will play a ten yard pass just behind their team-mate, killing a move. They will take a sloppy second touch when they need to move the ball on.  

It manifests in different ways in different players.  Romeu is "nasty" but that yellow card he picked up yesterday was stupid and an example of someone making a poor choice in a moment of pressure. He knew he was taking a yellow when he made that challenge but there was no need to do so; it wasn't a foul that needed to be made, it was early in the match and he was on a knife-edge for the rest of the match as a result.

Redmond needed to play an easy 15 yard pass in front of Ings but chopped it too square.

Adams has no composure on his left foot.

Armstrong delays the pass for too long when carrying the ball laterally across the pitch.

Djenepo's legs behave like he has just fallen out of a deer's fanny.  Ditto Walcott often.

Mental strength is about composure and consistency. You can achieve that whether you are "nice" or "nasty" but you need to set the example and you need to be consistent in your own application. The reason the best captains are the best captains is because they are dependable.  Team mates look at them and they know exactly what they will get. 

 

Exactly that, you get it!

[Chickendippers]

Schmeichel, Neville, Bruce, Keane, Ince, Hughes - all shouters. If something went wrong there was an inquisition. I take the point about not having to shout to get your point across as a leader but it might not hurt for JWP to give Bednarek a volley for passing straight to the opposition (for example). Stephens is a 'good communicator' which might help explain the run of clean sheets he was part of - shame he has a 50p shaped head and sometimes struggles. A good shouting match might fire up some of the quieter lads and avoid some of the collapses we have seen recently.

[Matthew Le God]

11 minutes ago, Chickendippers said:

Schmeichel, Neville, Bruce, Keane, Ince, Hughes - all shouters. If something went wrong there was an inquisition. I take the point about not having to shout to get your point across as a leader but it might not hurt for JWP to give Bednarek a volley for passing straight to the opposition (for example). Stephens is a 'good communicator' which might help explain the run of clean sheets he was part of - shame he has a 50p shaped head and sometimes struggles. A good shouting match might fire up some of the quieter lads and avoid some of the collapses we have seen recently.

How does shouting help? This isn't the 1980s, you don't need to shout to be a good captain/leader/manager/boss etc.

 

Edited 15 February, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[Chickendippers]

6 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

How does shouting help? This isn't the 1980s, you don't need to shout to be a good captain.

Conceding a goal from a preventable mistake, trudging back to half way line with heads down and conceding another straight after the kick off doesn't seem to be working either

[Matthew Le God]

1 minute ago, Chickendippers said:

Conceding a goal from a preventable mistake, trudging back to half way line with heads down and conceding another straight after the kick off doesn't seem to be working either

Because one thing doesn't work it doesn't make something else any more viable by default.

Edited 15 February, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[Charlie Wayman]

20 hours ago, SKD said:

I think our biggest issue and has been for a few seasons now (since the loss of VVD / Fonte) is the lack of leadership on the pitch. For me, JWP isn’t really captain material. A team player and a model pro, but not nasty enough. But that being said, the best choice at the moment (other than perhaps Romeu) and if we had other leaders in the dressing room then i wouldn’t mind, but we don’t.

It seems to me that our current set of players, mentally are weak as piss. A team full of losers, who when the going gets tough give up. None have won anything of note in their career (other than Bertrand, more out of luck than anything else), and I don’t think any of them have the mentality to in the future either so if any think they’re too good for the club, then get rid ASAP please. 

Armstrong and Romeu who are 2 of our better performers are the only players who’ve been in a winning team and I think that’s telling. 

Time and time again we’ve thrown away leads and this pre dates the current manager. And generally speaking it’s the same set of losers that are in the starting 11. A squad out together in another loser in Les Reed. 

The transfer strategy seems to have improved over the past 2 seasons since les’ sacking, but we desperately need an overhaul of the likes of Redmond, Bertrand, Stephens and even arguably bednerak and the keepers and to bring in some true leaders. A shrewd signing of the like that Leicester made in Johnny Evans is much needed. 
 

Until we improve the mentality and leadership in the squad, we’ll continue to throw away leads and probably lose 9-0 again whoever the manager. 
 

As I said, going in the right direction and I do not blame the current board or manager, but I do fear our transfer strategy won’t allow us to look at something much needed within the team. 
 

i truly hope the board back the manager regardless of what happens from now until end of the season. I’d much rather we got rid of a group of players, who give up and don’t try whenever the don’t fancy it, than the manager who clearly has the passion to improve us. Regardless of what you think of  his tactics, this squad cannot keep getting away with it. 

No.

Hasn't Ralph said several times that he isn't interested in leaders on the pitch or in the dressing room, his players are fully briefed to work to the plan in the playbook and that's all that they should concentrate on.

Leadership isn't the issue at all. Players being pushed too hard for too long is the problem, they are all mentally and physically knackered.

[CB Fry]

What we need is, like, more determination and passion and pride in the shirt.

[The Curse of St Mary's]

19 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

No.

Hasn't Ralph said several times that he isn't interested in leaders on the pitch or in the dressing room, his players are fully briefed to work to the plan in the playbook and that's all that they should concentrate on.

Leadership isn't the issue at all. Players being pushed too hard for too long is the problem, they are all mentally and physically knackered.

Pissing around with the ball across the back line at walking pace in the 88th minute when 2-1 down is unacceptable whether that is lack of leadership or Ralph's playbook. 

[Chickendippers]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

Because one thing doesn't work it doesn't make something else any more viable by default.

Doesn't make "something else" wrong or less likely to succeed either!
 

[UpweySaint]

He’s not a shouter but I rate Prowsey as a captain. He directs play on the pitch, he’s brave receiving possession in tight positions, he’s won us games almost single handedly with his dead ball prowess, he has a top example of player development at the club (making the shirt his own despite some set backs), he doesn’t stop grafting despite a superhuman run of games and he’s added a bit of b*stard into his game (see Wilf Zaha or a prime example of him doing this).

We don’t have many ‘shouters’ and leadership is not ‘innate’. As players grow in a squad they develop into leaders. 

I get the frustration that there doesn’t always seem to be that drive when things go wrong, as they have lately, but I don’t attribute our poor recent form to lack of leadership on the pitch or ‘drive’ for the players to keep pushing. Can we honestly blame the players for heads dropping lately? If we take the Wolves game we are playing really good football and barely giving them a look in for almost an hour. Again we’re done by a decision that at best is inconsistent, if not down right b*llocks, and it must be hard not to think ‘here we go again!’ - we are feel it and I suspect the players are not immune.

 

[Mystic Force]

I really rate JWP as a footballer, but whenever I hear him him speak he does not inspire me. He sounds more like the corporate spokesman rolled out to make a statement with no content or meaning. What you want from a leader is inspiration, something that gives everyone that little extra spark. You can have different leadership styles that can be successful.

I think of the captain being the on pitch as the supervisor of the workforce, helping everyone achieve the bosses goals. That person has to lead by example, coordinate activity, be able to get people to do their job, project positivity and communicate the bigger picture.

Would you see anyone following JWP to hell to rescue a team mate? No, maybe an attempt to acquire hell and reorganize the structure and eventually reassign said team mate in corporate restructuring to successive positions via HR to the above ground division. When really what he should have done was aim a well placed deadball at the devils head.

If you have 11 people who cannot work together or follow the leader what you have is a group of talented twats who will never win anything. I am pretty sure those operating at the highest level might have cracked that special skill labeled "greater than the sum of parts"

[VectisSaint]

The obvious leader is Danny Ings. That said I'm not a great believer in the captain being a striker. The best captains are always midfield, for obvious reasons. I don't think JWP is bad actually. I do wonder whether Armstrong might develop into captain material, but I suspect he is too "nice". We've lacked a proper captain since Steve Davis. Oh for the days of the likes of Alan Ball. Meant to say that Stephens is the other obvious candidate, but until/unless he is a regular in the side it won't happen 

Edited 15 February, 2021 by VectisSaint
Added the bit about Stephens

[Daft Kerplunk]

3 hours ago, Mystic Force said:

 

I really rate JWP as a footballer, but whenever I hear him him speak he does not inspire me. He sounds more like the corporate spokesman rolled out to make a statement with no content or meaning

 

In other words, absolutely perfect for modern football 😄

[Daft Kerplunk]

5 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Hasn't Ralph said several times that he isn't interested in leaders on the pitch or in the dressing room, his players are fully briefed to work to the plan in the playbook and that's all that they should concentrate on

So the plan is the problem 🤔

[woodsaint1]

100% agree that we've lacked leaders since Fonte and VVD left. Though i do remember the many calls for us to sign Cahill at the time yet Palace have largely struggled the past few seasons.

Dont agree that we have a team full of 'losers' or that that really matters. We have a few 'winners' on top of Bertrand - theres Walcott (plenty of FA Cups with Arsenal), Forster (won everything in Scotland with Celtic in both spells), Armstrong (Celtic again) and KWP (won a under 20 world cup). 

Tbh outside the top 6/7 teams in the league, most teams in the league are full of players who have won bugger all of note (not including Championship titles) and be classified as losers. The likes of Leeds, Burnley, West Ham to name a few. In fact up until Liverpool won the CL and PL, their team was full of players who had won very little (Mane, Salah, Hendo, VVD, TAA, Robertson, Gomez Firmino etc). Their coach had lost a lot of finals too.

The team has shown a strong mentality to win a relegation decider against Swansea, then again survive from where Hughes left us, then again after the first 9-0 to have an excellent 2020. Mentally we'll recover again, but yes this could be assisted with bigger personalities (not like Austin) and leaders - not necessarily 'winners'. 

Ultimately i think it rests with poor recruitment in years past which we're still recovering from. If we have better players then winning and strong mentality takes care of itself. Still think we're two transfer windows away from being a better team across the board - thats with the appropriate investment which has been lacking. We can always hope.

One mental area which does need addressed is the capitulation for the two 9-0s. League 2 clubs wouldnt have lost those games by that margin. A combination of a coach who needs to learn/manage how to shut up shop and players just going AWOL is unacceptable - regardless of poor decisions and red cards.

[SKD]

23 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Why not?

Because he does not strike me as the sort of bloke who’ll dig someone out for effectively not trying. 
 

As I said, he’s a model pro and a great lad. This isn’t a dig at his as captain but more that we have no leaders in our dressing room and more so that the mentality and desire of the players is pathetic. 

[Matthew Le God]

6 minutes ago, SKD said:

Because he does not strike me as the sort of bloke who’ll dig someone out for effectively not trying.

How do you 'dig someone out'?

[VectisSaint]

22 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

No.

Hasn't Ralph said several times that he isn't interested in leaders on the pitch or in the dressing room, his players are fully briefed to work to the plan in the playbook and that's all that they should concentrate on.

Leadership isn't the issue at all. Players being pushed too hard for too long is the problem, they are all mentally and physically knackered.

With no crowd and Ralph being able to vocally coach effectively from pitch side, and with the set plays and triggers it really isn't so much of a problem. It becomes more of an issue when we get crowds back in the stadiums. What if Ralph was not at pitch side, sent to the stands or something, or even when he was self isolating, Richard Kitzbichler is certainly not the vocal coach that Ralph is. People underestimate the role of the captain, but it is certainly not as important in the current climate.

[sydney_saint]

I think the idea of leadership is a bit overdone and pretty old fashioned. It is easy to stand out as a leader if you are a centreback because you are literally throwing yourself at the ball to stop it going in. You also occupy quite a small part of the pitch, and a  vital part of the pitch that the opponents need to get through to score. So it is little coindence that the names of leaders been thrown about here are likes of Fonte, VVD, Coady etc. Sure there is the occasional one that is futher forward, but I reckon these are few and far between

There is only so much influence you can have in any other position when the games starts going against you. You could be a leader in the right back position but they end up scoring 5 down the middle and left. Or you could be a leader centre mid but they just go down the flanks and into a weak defence. We used to have David Prutton snarling away in the centre of the pitch and still get tonked. How did Hojberg go as captain with all his arm waving and pointing around?

For what it is worth I think JWP does a really decent job. He tries to make himself available when we are under pressure and he gets back and does the defensive work. There have many many occasions this season the opponents have got inside our fullbacks and yet JWP is there to clear it or shepherd it away. I do think he really does try to lead by example and stand up. Part of the issue recently is that teams swamp us down the middle. We only play with two out and out centre mids and most teams have three. We need to tactically adjust to this better when we lose control in the second half. Our two often do an incredibly good effort in the first half of games, but then flag, opponents press them. We need an extra man to match opponents and get back control

Edited 16 February, 2021 by sydney_saint

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Were we lacking a leader when we were the fifth best team in the league across 2020? We're struggling at the moment because we've had injuries and the players who are fit need a rest

Edited 16 February, 2021 by Ex Lion Tamer

[Sarisbury Saint]

On 15/02/2021 at 12:19, Matthew Le God said:

Why not?

So to be a good leader you need to shout a lot? 🤔

We should hire Brian Blessed!

That is a good thing, not a bad thing!

Tell you what, how about you come up with your own ideas for a change.

 

[Matthew Le God]

15 minutes ago, Sarisbury Saint said:

Tell you what, how about you come up with your own ideas for a change.

That is a strange response to a question. What do you think I don't have my 'own ideas' about?

[SKD]

2 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

How do you 'dig someone out'?

A good old telling off, who knows, as men maybe even a bit more physical (certainly what I’d expect after a record defeat... twice). 
 

I’ll put it into terms you may be able to related to and understand... like when your mum turns off your wifi when you’ve been a naughty boy.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

How do you 'dig someone out'?

Sort them out, and their mate and let them bring their dinner.

 

[sydney_saint]

9 minutes ago, SKD said:

A good old telling off, who knows, as men maybe even a bit more physical (certainly what I’d expect after a record defeat... twice). 
 

I’ll put it into terms you may be able to related to and understand... like when your mum turns off your wifi when you’ve been a naughty boy.

 

I think that is most likely just really outdated. Football has moved on since the days where a Nobby Stiles tears into a bunch of other England working class lads and rouses them up. Footballers now have more money and fame than they know what to do with. They are kept mostly in cotton wool and are pretty insulated and protected. I'm definitely not saying that's a good thing, but it's just a reality whether it is our club or another. 

Someone tearing into them and getting physical will most like just get isolated themselves as the rest of the players just close ranks. I'm sure footballers still say some tough words to one another on occasion, but I doubt anyone is really ripping their heads off. 

[Matthew Le God]

19 minutes ago, SKD said:

I’ll put it into terms you may be able to related to and understand... like when your mum turns off your wifi when you’ve been a naughty boy.

🙄

[Matthew Le God]

20 minutes ago, SKD said:

A good old telling off, who knows, as men maybe even a bit more physical (certainly what I’d expect after a record defeat... twice). 

What would that achieve?

Why do you think Ward-Prowse is incapable of motivating? You don't need to shout to motivate.

[cloggy saint]

There's no reason why all 11 players can't shout/point/motivate, the captain is just a figurehead who calls the toss of the coin and collects any trophy (obviously that second part doesn't apply to us).

[Sarisbury Saint]

2 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

That is a strange response to a question. What do you think I don't have my 'own ideas' about?

Anything. All you do is question other people’s  views.

How about you express your own view for a change.

[Mystic Force]

The point of a leader is to make everyone else better. This does not need to be shouting at people and waving arms around. It is finding the key that unlocks each box. If we have got to a point where people who are good at kicking a ball get can no longer work together because they are too well paid, then I think in the selection process look a little harder at are you willing to be part of a team or not in the much vaunted black box. When you have been on the end of a tonking you want a leader who will pick you up and help you put it behind you. If you having home problems you want one who can help you focus on the task, if you are winning you want one who can keep people grounded so they do not become complacent. I wonder what kind of leadership training they give to people to help support this?

 

People who can point out problems are a dime a dozen, people with suggestions quite common, people who know of what they speak, rare, and people who can solve it unique.

Edited 16 February, 2021 by Mystic Force

[beatlesaint]

2 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

What would that achieve?

Why do you think Ward-Prowse is incapable of motivating? You don't need to shout to motivate.

To be fair he hasn’t/isn’t making much of a fist of it, he is in the history books as captain of a team that’s not only lost 9-0 for the second time in 18 months (yes I know he wasn’t captain for the first one) but now holds the club records of most consecutive league defeats and counting going by the next three fixtures.

[Matthew Le God]

28 minutes ago, Sarisbury Saint said:

Anything. All you do is question other people’s  views.

How about you express your own view for a change.

Nothing wrong with asking questions. This is a forum... for discussion.

Puzzling why you think I don't express my own view on Saints. I do all the time in this forum. Plus through FM my opinion on a huge number of aspects on Saints is publicly available. Probably more of my opinion on Saints is publicly available than anyone else on the planet!

Edited 16 February, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[captainchris]

It is a subject which begins with a low ambition both at the club and indeed with the fan base as well. Too much talk of how well we are doing considering this and that....

The losing mentality is rife right though the club and fans which generates a satisfaction with just staying in the league then the players will naturally play to that level and with that mentality.

Even Ralph started saying we have achieved acceptable results by amassing 29 points.

Well in competition whether you are rich and have the best equipment or not as wealthy a mediocre mentality will equal mediocre results and even John Terry alone will find that whole attitude difficult to overcome. Ultimately if the Chairman believes we are not aiming very high, the fans are satisfied with not aiming high, the Manager has reached his target, then the players will play ultimately and have a personal determination to that level which is ‘acceptable’

Mentality is 70% of the advantage in sport if not more... We clearly are lacking it in every aspect of the club and supporters.

Roy Keane is dead right .... 

Edited 16 February, 2021 by captainchris