Saints 1-2 Wolves - Match Thread

[derry]

Another self inflicted defeat. The defence and management go on making the same mistakes time after time. The aimless passing at the back is a major part of our problems especially involving McCarthy. We were robbed twice leading to both goals the ball goes across the field and leads to the penalty and the second goal. Time after time we recycled the ball getting pressed tighter after every pass until we lost the ball or gave it away. I understand the theory of drawing the opposition but not with the players we have and especially with a keeper who is not a footballer and is a very poor kicker of the ball. Forster realises his limitations but somebody is bullshitting McCarthy. 

McCarthy has become a massive problem, he can make the flying showboating saves but he never blocks anything. The Arsenal goal went over his left shoulder and today over his right shoulder. He bends his knees and makes himself small. Forster on the other hand makes himself huge and the ball hits him. He was never going to save the penalty. He dives right so Neves watches him and goes the other way. He has to stare out the penalty taker and not be suckered. If the keeper forces the taker to have to decide late he may have a chance of saving a poor penalty.

Even losing we are running down the clock at the back towards the end. our goal didn't come from drawing out the defence it came from Armstrong running wide at the defence and pulling back for Ings. All our tippy-tappy along the back four rarely creates anything clear except for the opposition. Only Vestergaard has the passing ability to pass long all the others are hopeless.

McCarthy has had more than enough chances and in my opinion is only in the side because he does as he's told even when it's stupid and he's such a hopeless kicker.  Forster is a much better kicker and takes less chances, Four wins and clean sheets deserves a chance not more of the same. 

Edited 14 February, 2021 by derry

[the saint in winchester]

Control the controllables!

We had 95 minutes to score more than one goal. Don't let it come down to one (or two today) bad VAR decision(s). We should have scored more than one goal and then the VAR decision wouldn't have dictated the result. Ralph had a poor game today, and he needs to coach better the players he has.

We seem to be focused on VAR and strength of the squad. We can do more than we are currently doing.

[Guided Missile]

We're simply a tippy tappy one trick pony. When we need to, we are incapable of responding to a change of tactics by the opposition. The reason for this is that we don't have the talent or squad depth to adapt. An unimaginative team of uncreative robots and every team in the league has worked us out.

[CB Fry]

5 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

^ Look at the comments, its killing them these decisions. 

 

What it's doing is giving them the comfort blanket of "its not our fault, we only lose because things are against us".

We deservedly got nothing from the game today. Whining about decisions help no one. We had more good fortune than we knew what to do with last week and still lost.

 

[Guided Missile]

Our motto is why not make ten passes when one would have done.

[whiteleySaint30]

Those questioning Ralph astonush me. Good luck trying to get a better manager than him. Baffling.

[Wade Garrett]

If KWP is out for next week, at least with Salisu getting game time we have the option of going 3 at the back instead of shoe-horning someone into right-back.

[Sarisbury Saint]

When things go against us, lets just give up and feel sorry for ourselves.

[S-Clarke]

5 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

What it's doing is giving them the comfort blanket of "its not our fault, we only lose because things are against us".

We deservedly got nothing from the game today. Whining about decisions help no one. We had more good fortune than we knew what to do with last week and still lost.

 

Exactly.

That decision was shit, it happened. But it didn't then force us to play shit for an entire 45 mins. We barely tested them, then inevitably went behind.

If people are saying that because of the bad decision our heads dropped....then it just confirms the team is too mentally weak to compete at this level consistently.

Edited 14 February, 2021 by S-Clarke

[Mr X]

7 minutes ago, eurosaint said:

Perhaps Ralph does have a ‘plan B’ but is not able to implement it through lack of resources ? It’s already been said that our best players are having to play 2 or 3 games a week and (because of our high press, high energy style) they run out of steam ! Bestways we have a good first 11 but a very weak and inexperienced backup squad !

It’s absolutely soul destroying to get crap refereeing decisions which alter the dynamic of the game and all of a sudden you have to go again...

It’s not ideal the way things are going right now but perhaps understandable !

Those calling for Ralph’s head are a bit thick IMHO !!

Noones calling for his head they are just saying he has to be accountable for some things I.e our regular poor second half performances, record of points lost from winning positions, questionable substitutions and general lack of a plan b. No ones unsympathetic to the injuries hand he's been dealt & the poor decisions but we can't keep hiding behind that. 

[egg]

6 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

What it's doing is giving them the comfort blanket of "its not our fault, we only lose because things are against us".

We deservedly got nothing from the game today. Whining about decisions help no one. We had more good fortune than we knew what to do with last week and still lost.

 

Bingo. Shit decisions, but if we're not shit, that result doesn't happen. 

[redkeith]

This is starting to fee like that 20 game run without a win under Chris Nicholl.  

Injuries, bad decisions and bad refereeing decisions are queuing up  to fuck us over at the moment. 

Then next few weeks are not going to be nice. 

We need KWP and Diallo back for the up match, and then maybe we can start to recover.  At least we have no mid week game this week to recover a bit before Chelseas annual away win at St Mary's

 

 

 

 

[pimpin4rizeal]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

You could argue that this team is the worst team in our history. Might sound quite a brash statement to make, but this lot have lost 9-0 twice and have just lost 6 games in a row - the most this club has ever lost in a row in any league.

We are mentally weak, fragile and lack any sort of leadership. When the chips are down we wilt, every single time. That won't change without significant changes in the playing squad, which is something we can't do as we have an owner who doesn't support us.

Long and short of it, we are fucked. No idea where we are heading.

I think we do have quite a lot of good players in our team we are maybe a couple of players short of being a good side (for Ralph’s formation anyway which is debatable at the moment if it’s a good formation or plan anyway)

but imo to play this 4222 we really do need a couple of very decent creative attacking players to play in the ten roles Armstrong is decent but Redmond and djenepo are rarely creating anything and then the strikers get little service..+ jwp and romeau don’t really have the pace to get up the pitch and create too much either..

but overall the team really shouldn’t be this weak we have some decentish cbs.. fullbacks are fine especially kwp cm jwp romeau and diallo are fine for us and ings is top drawer up front. So maybe a decent partner for ings and more creativity at number ten is needed but I’m not totally buying that our team/ players are a awful bunch and no one could do better with them ?

Edited 14 February, 2021 by pimpin4rizeal
Spelling

[DT]

5 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Exactly.

That decision was shit, it happened. But it didn't then force us to play shit for an entire 45 mins. We barely tested them, then inevitably went behind.

If people are saying that because of the bad decision our heads dropped....then it just confirms the team is too mentally weak to compete at this level consistently.

This. Where is the anger? The grit to avenge the decision. The battle? They seem very like a group of individuals. Lily-livered, and just content to luxuriate in over-passing. Perhaps we miss Theo's directness., even if he doesn't have much of an end-product

[Fitzhugh Fella]

3 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Noones calling for his head they are just saying he has to be accountable for some things I.e our regular poor second half performances, record of points lost from winning positions, questionable substitutions and general lack of a plan b. No ones unsympathetic to the injuries hand he's been dealt & the poor decisions but we can't keep hiding behind that. 

Yes this is a sensible post. Ralph is far from the messiah some painted him as, but unless the Board have something special up their sleeves (which is highly unlikely)he will be going nowhere just yet. I must admit my confidence in him is sliding however. 

[Fan The Flames]

42 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

You missed my point. I'm not on about individuals making up the team, as there is no doubt we have much higher quality individually than at many times in our history. But I'm on about the team makeup - mentality, professionalism etc. This has got to be the worst makeup we've ever had, we're setting the wrong records all over the place for losing leads, losing games 9-0 and the likes.

No you're still wrong

[JRM]

1 hour ago, egg said:

The decisions are weird, but now we've had a pop at Dean we're not likely to get the decisions. 

Regardless, you've got to control what you can control. Ralph hasn't got a plan to chase games. If he has I can't see it, and it isn't working. 

I honestly can't remember a run of refereeing decisions like we've had in last 11 games. VAR was supposed to rule out inconsistencies but I can count several handball decisions that have not gone our way, yet Scott couldn't wait to give the Bertrand one. They are all a bunch of cnts they really are. 

Either way though that's a club record run of defeats to add to the 9-0 debacle, record points thrown away from leading positions, Ralph looked emotional post match, don't fancy our chances against Chelsea next week either. 

[Red]

3 minutes ago, DT said:

This. Where is the anger? The grit to avenge the decision. The battle? They seem very like a group of individuals. Lily-livered, and just content to luxuriate in over-passing. Perhaps we miss Theo's directness., even if he doesn't have much of an end-product

Very poignant - on Valentines day where was our heart? Accept a well fought defeat, but 2nd half we just seemed lay down our arms and concede defeat (could have said we dropped our drawers and ........)

[Killers Knee]

18 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

What it's doing is giving them the comfort blanket of "its not our fault, we only lose because things are against us".

We deservedly got nothing from the game today. Whining about decisions help no one. We had more good fortune than we knew what to do with last week and still lost.

 

Exactly this.  They need the mental strength to acknowledge before each match that they are playing against the opposition and the PGMOL.  That the ref will give the opposition a goal and one of theirs will be chalked off.

If they can acknowledge this prior to a match and still have the mentality to fight for a result, we might get somewhere.

[adrian lord]

I signed up as a Saints fan on the morning of 1st May 1976. It started brilliantly. 

[obelisk]

Shocking decision for Armstrong to beat his man in midfield, sprint forward and put in a decent cross for Ings to bury it.

Doesn't he know that he should have stopped and put his foot on the ball before passing it back to a defender? ☺️

[DT]

4 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Shocking decision for Armstrong to beat his man in midfield, sprint forward and put in a decent cross for Ings to bury it.

Doesn't he know that he should have stopped and put his foot on the ball before passing it back to a defender? ☺️

It's why Ralph took him off. The impudence of ignoring the plan

[Teddeer]

17 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Shocking decision for Armstrong to beat his man in midfield, sprint forward and put in a decent cross for Ings to bury it.

Doesn't he know that he should have stopped and put his foot on the ball before passing it back to a defender? ☺️

This is why we are struggling. Not enough players have the balls or the ability to take a chance, to gamble and create space and a bit of panic for the opposition. We have become far too predictable and almost programmed to go back and sideways, wash, rinse and repeat.

[Chez]

45 minutes ago, derry said:

 

McCarthy has become a massive problem, he can make the flying showboating saves but he never blocks anything. The Arsenal goal went over his left shoulder and today over his right shoulder. He bends his knees and makes himself small. Forster on the other hand makes himself huge and the ball hits him. He was never going to save the penalty. He dives right so Neves watches him and goes the other way. He has to stare out the penalty taker and not be suckered. If the keeper forces the taker to have to decide late he may have a chance of saving a poor penalty.

 

McCarthy is a massive problem because he doesn't save pens and is beaten from 8 yards?

McCarthy is no world beater (I'm not his biggest fan) and has certainly been at fault for some goals (what keepers aren't?), but he has also made a lot of outstanding saves over the last year or so to keep us in games. They of course are forgotten, although I guess that is his job. I'm still waiting for Foster to make what you'd call an outstanding (world class) save. 

[Chez]

I notice there aren't any comments today about Ings not trying. 

[Teddeer]

Just now, Chez said:

McCarthy is a massive problem because he doesn't save pens and is beaten from 8 yards?

McCarthy is no world beater (I'm not his biggest fan) and has certainly been at fault for some goals (what keepers aren't?), but he has also made a lot of outstanding saves over the last year or so to keep us in games. They of course are forgotten, although I guess that is his job. I'm still waiting for Foster to make what you'd call an outstanding (world class) save. 

It's pretty difficult to do that from the bench.

[Langley saint]

1 minute ago, Teddeer said:

This is why we are struggling. Not enough players have the balls or the ability to take a chance, to gamble and create space and a bit of panic for the opposition. We have become far too predictable and almost programmed to go back and sideways, wash, rinse and repeat.

Totally agree robotic football, really not sure what the answer is without investment? 

[Chez]

1 minute ago, Teddeer said:

It's pretty difficult to do that from the bench.

he wouldn't be on our bench is he had done it in the past.

[Teddeer]

1 minute ago, Chez said:

he wouldn't be on our bench is he had done it in the past.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg unless of course you are going right back to before he went out on loan?

[S-Clarke]

41 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

No you're still wrong

Ok fair enough, can you at least elaborate as to why you think my points are wrong?

Do you not agree that we have a bad makeup with poor mentality rife throughout the squad?

[JRM]

40 minutes ago, redkeith said:

This is starting to fee like that 20 game run without a win under Chris Nicholl.  

Injuries, bad decisions and bad refereeing decisions are queuing up  to fuck us over at the moment. 

Then next few weeks are not going to be nice. 

We need KWP and Diallo back for the up match, and then maybe we can start to recover.  At least we have no mid week game this week to recover a bit before Chelseas annual away win at St Mary's

 

 

 

 

Definitely has similarities,  I've mentioned this elsewhere , weird how last time we topped the league in 88 the shock was enough to send us spiralling down the table, history repeating itself. 

Difference this time we get a cup run. 

Our squad just can't hack this intensity of fixtures (physical) combined with such fragile mentalities. 

Where's the next league point coming from? 

[simo]

1 minute ago, Chez said:

McCarthy is a massive problem because he doesn't save pens and is beaten from 8 yards?

McCarthy is no world beater (I'm not his biggest fan) and has certainly been at fault for some goals (what keepers aren't?), but he has also made a lot of outstanding saves over the last year or so to keep us in games. They of course are forgotten, although I guess that is his job. I'm still waiting for Foster to make what you'd call an outstanding (world class) save. 

Foster has made the saves he has needed to hence 4 clean sheets in 4 games !? McCarty has now been beaten from a narrow angle where he just needs to make himself big and react quickly twice in less than a month !

[Forester]

Firstly I hate whinging about decisions and try to avoid it as over the season you win some and lose some.  But today two decisions made a major impact on the result.  No question, and it is dishonest to ignore the significance of that today.

Turning to us, and it is also one eyed to ignore just how well we played first half.  We played some terrific stuff, and yes that included playing out from the back, and really needed to find that second goal which would have been a deserved return on that first half.  It was inevitable that Wolves would not be so subservient second half and we aren’t killing teams off when we have them under the pump.

But the second half was night and day, even ignoring the VAR horror show.  I don’t think overall we defended poorly today, but I do agree it is time to give Forster a run in the team.  It is important that as a manager you don’t have your favourites and the stats say FF should start.  
 

Finally I don’t think things are as parlous as some on here make out.  The cup wins against Arsenal and Wolves should not be air brushed out of a fair assessment of 2021, we are in quarter finals against only Championship team left in competition, and are comfortably safe.  No need to reach for the pistol and whiskey.

[tajjuk]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

We deservedly got nothing from the game today. 

100% nonsense we did.  I mean we must have been so terrible that the Wolves manager mentioned how tough a game it was for them and all the pundits are talking about how bad the decision was that changed the game.

Go watch the highlights package, its all Saints, except for their goals basically. 

It kills confidence, Wolves were crap for more than half that game and didn't create one single clear chance, they got a dodgy pen which changed the game for them and scored a wonder goal where we should have defended better.  Yeh they played better second half but still did very little, the ref got them in the game and our players are struggling for confidence on a bad run of form.  

It's more the other way around people on here are so quick to call us terrible when we are average if not half decent, but as soon as we lose we get all these smug clueless comments about how terrible we are, honestly its utter nonsense. 

 

 

[jabei]

2 hours ago, trousers said:

Why didn't Ralph's 'limited tactics' trip us up in 2020 as much as they're supposedly tripping us up now...?

Because people got wise up the way we play and our strikers stopped scoring?

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, redkeith said:

This is starting to fee like that 20 game run without a win under Chris Nicholl.  

Injuries, bad decisions and bad refereeing decisions are queuing up  to fuck us over at the moment. 

Then next few weeks are not going to be nice. 

We need KWP and Diallo back for the up match, and then maybe we can start to recover.  At least we have no mid week game this week to recover a bit before Chelseas annual away win at St Mary's

 

 

 

 

Good shout. We weren’t playing badly in that run either but we couldn’t buy a win despite playing well in a lot of games. I remember us dominating loads of games for an hour and still losing. We have had some match changing decisions go against us, but also no way should we have failed to get a least a point in the last two games. Terrible defending then failure to break down 9 men last week and a really poor second half today. 

[Micky]

2 hours ago, WokingSaint said:

Why do we 'die' in the second half?

No bollocks.

[Nordic Saint]

29 minutes ago, Chez said:

I'm still waiting for Foster to make what you'd call an outstanding (world class) save. 

There is a reason why he has kept nearly 200 clean sheets and it's not just because he has got a world class defence playing in front of him. The thing about Forster is that he is so big and his positioning is so good that he doesn't usually need to move very far to stop goals. But, take your pick from this lot. The one from Mane is a real worldy:

(31) Fraser Forster 2016/17 Amazing saves - FC southampton - YouTube

 

 

 

[Fan The Flames]

17 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Ok fair enough, can you at least elaborate as to why you think my points are wrong?

Do you not agree that we have a bad makeup with poor mentality rife throughout the squad?

Your statement was that this was the worst Saints team ever, I think it's not. Your statement is such a big one it's on you to stand it up, not for others to fail to knock it down.

[Chapel End]

With all these dodgy/questionable/debateable\ridiculous decisions going against us, maybe things will change when one of two go our way

[pimpin4rizeal]

18 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Ok fair enough, can you at least elaborate as to why you think my points are wrong?

Do you not agree that we have a bad makeup with poor mentality rife throughout the squad?

I’d say Ralph has to carry the can  for poor mentality and makeup throughout the squad, he’s choosing the 4222 formation and the way we play and has been here long enough to ask for players needed to use this style or try something else

He’s made some decisions like freezing out and selling gabbiadini and preferring the high work rate types like long I would argue boufal is also a lot more capable of creating then the likes of djenepo and Redmond also. But here we are.

I like Ralph as much as the next man but it’s his team his players and his tactics now and is down to him to make us hard to beat 

[rallyboy]

 

 

Graham Scott made glaring errors as VAR official in the 9-0.

He and Mike Dean were made to look stupid as Saints won appeals against them.

Today he has given two quite unusual decisions that favour our opponents in both cases.

Just facts.

And yes we were shit, but if Man City were playing against 13/14 people every week they wouldn't win a fucking thing, so it is relevant.

I've seen some awful refereeing before but not this consistently bad and one-sided, it's now the standard in every game we play and is clearly knocking the stuffing out of morale in the team.

[Saint Keef]

They say these bad decisions even themselves out over a season. The last one I can recall that went in our favour was the penalty decision at Brighton which was marginally inside/outside the box.  Since then, correct me if I'm wrong - nothing. I have lost count of those that have gone against us since then. We must be owed quite a few in that case for them to even themselves out. 

I thought the team played well in the first half. Wolves were always going to come at us in the second half as they do with every team, but we were weathering the storm until "that decision" which when you put it against the Matt Cash "handball" and the Wolves "handball" today is just utter garbage. I am really struggling to believe that these referees are so incompetent as to keep making wrong decisions, which only leaves one other scenario........and I've said it on here before......they are, for whatever reason..... Bent! Biased! Corrupt! Call it what you want.

When the decisions constantly go against a particular team, the players head's are bound to drop, particularly when you are on a bad run anyway. It doesn't matter how professional they are, to see all their hard work undone by one (or today - two) bad decisions by some twat with a whistle is bound to be disheartening.  I find myself watching games now just waiting for the next ludicrous decision. 

 

[trousers]

2 hours ago, Weston Saint said:

Many of you on here who thought this was the best manager for us and frightened he would leave are now calling for his head

Many of those same people did not want Vestergaard near our side now crowing over his abilities

Many of those same people who did not want Forster near our side but now calling from him to play

I could go on and on and on with recent examples.

I know it is a forum for debate but what I will say is that I am glad those people do not have a decision on how the club is run.  Flaky comes to mind.

[Shroppie]

22 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

100% nonsense we did.  I mean we must have been so terrible that the Wolves manager mentioned how tough a game it was for them and all the pundits are talking about how bad the decision was that changed the game.

Go watch the highlights package, its all Saints, except for their goals basically. 

It kills confidence, Wolves were crap for more than half that game and didn't create one single clear chance, they got a dodgy pen which changed the game for them and scored a wonder goal where we should have defended better.  Yeh they played better second half but still did very little, the ref got them in the game and our players are struggling for confidence on a bad run of form.  

It's more the other way around people on here are so quick to call us terrible when we are average if not half decent, but as soon as we lose we get all these smug clueless comments about how terrible we are, honestly its utter nonsense. 

 

 

Agree with most of this. We should have put away more chances in the first half: I think we might have done if Adams had started.

But it's hard to underestimate the impact of that appalling penalty decision. Apart from the goal, you can see how the anger Bertrand rightly felt completely destroyed his composure. When things are going badly, injustices affect the team far more, and the non-penalty for Dendoncker just left the team, and Ralph, seething. Reverse those two decisions, which was totally plausible, and we're two up, composed, gaining confidence and the game is completely different.

It's a Catch-22. If we'd had decisions like that during a good run, there's every chance we'd have overcome it. When you're down, everything seems to go against you.

[Hodgey]

Think we are close to turning this round - it’s been marginal stuff with Newcastle / Villa / Wolves - any of those games could easily have been a point or win. Minimino clearly not Saints match fit yet, and a lot of players lacking confidence - Adams can’t buy a goal (and needs to use his left foot) and Djenepo and Redmond off form. I agree Forster should have started after recent McCarthy errors but honestly think it would have been the same result - couldn’t see Forster saving either. We have a big problem with a plan B - think this is both tactical and a very thin bench. We need another striker urgently or we could be in serious trouble next year.

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, Shroppie said:

Agree with most of this. We should have put away more chances in the first half: I think we might have done if Adams had started.

But it's hard to underestimate the impact of that appalling penalty decision. Apart from the goal, you can see how the anger Bertrand rightly felt completely destroyed his composure. When things are going badly, injustices affect the team far more, and the non-penalty for Dendoncker just left the team, and Ralph, seething. Reverse those two decisions, which was totally plausible, and we're two up, composed, gaining confidence and the game is completely different.

It's a Catch-22. If we'd had decisions like that during a good run, there's every chance we'd have overcome it. When you're down, everything seems to go against you.

Indeed. It's not complicated... (Well, for some it might be...)

[JRM]

15 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

 

 

Graham Scott made glaring errors as VAR official in the 9-0.

He and Mike Dean were made to look stupid as Saints won appeals against them.

Today he has given two quite unusual decisions that favour our opponents in both cases.

Just facts.

And yes we were shit, but if Man City were playing against 13/14 people every week they wouldn't win a fucking thing, so it is relevant.

I've seen some awful refereeing before but not this consistently bad and one-sided, it's now the standard in every game we play and is clearly knocking the stuffing out of morale in the team.

 

Mike Dean may have been stepped down but his spirit lives on strongly today. 

[rooney]

No bottle and no leaders to shout them on to possible victory. Oh for aRoy Keane.

[tajjuk]

4 minutes ago, Shroppie said:

Agree with most of this. We should have put away more chances in the first half: I think we might have done if Adams had started.

But it's hard to underestimate the impact of that appalling penalty decision. Apart from the goal, you can see how the anger Bertrand rightly felt completely destroyed his composure. When things are going badly, injustices affect the team far more, and the non-penalty for Dendoncker just left the team, and Ralph, seething. Reverse those two decisions, which was totally plausible, and we're two up, composed, gaining confidence and the game is completely different.

It's a Catch-22. If we'd had decisions like that during a good run, there's every chance we'd have overcome it. When you're down, everything seems to go against you.

We were good first half, we weren't as terrible second half as people are making out IMO.

We were good the whole game against Villa.

We weren't terrible at Newcastle but made some horrible horrible errors that made it easy for them. 

The Man Utd game was a storm of everything going wrong. 

We played decently in both cup games.

I think the team is doing ok, we are of course not hitting the heights of earlier in the season in terms of performance but nor do I think performances are bad enough for 6 defeats in a row. Like you say a happy and confident team makes these decisions a non-issue and still picks up points, but they are not a confident team, they are losing games and have had several weeks where key decisions are going against them time and time again, coupled with an unlucky run of injuries before that. Mentally its going to have a big impact. 

There are fine margins in PL games, most of the teams are not that far apart in ability and things like form, fitness, tiredness, confidence and luck can have a big impact on games.