Mike Dean is at it again!

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, danjosaint said:

So Mason has been dropped from today's liverpool game,  citing that he sustained an injury in Brighton game, just be honest ffs

I hate the protection afforded to referees. They are kept inside this safe bubble, god forbid you criticise them at any point. Even if it's fair to criticise, you are fined substationaly as a player or a manager (I'd expect Dunk to get a fine after his comments yesterday).

He's clearly not injured, but honesty doesn't travel well in refereeing circles.

[Turkish]

Lee Mason has been replaced as 4th official for Sheffield United v Liverpool game. Injured apparently

[Whitey Grandad]

11 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Lee Mason has been replaced as 4th official for Sheffield United v Liverpool game. Injured apparently

Whistlitis 

[sydney_saint]

54 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I hate the protection afforded to referees. They are kept inside this safe bubble, god forbid you criticise them at any point. Even if it's fair to criticise, you are fined substationaly as a player or a manager (I'd expect Dunk to get a fine after his comments yesterday).

He's clearly not injured, but honesty doesn't travel well in refereeing circles.

Honestly this is just dumb. What do you mean 'god forbid you criticise them'. That's all that happens to refs! Refs are constantly abused, insulted, crowded around, sworn at. This idea that refs should front the media and take further abuse will only exacerbate problems. It would be a show trial by media. Do we hound at a player and make them front the media if they miss a 1v1?

We already have a major issue in retaining refs. Adding an even further level of stress and ultimately harrasment which will only mean we are left we even shitter refs. Refs will be like fuck this, it isn't worth it. 

This does not include Mike Riley. He should absolutely be fronting the media to explain what the fuck is going on. 

Edited 28 February, 2021 by sydney_saint

[Roo1976]

The whole VAR this season is becoming a season too long .Were any of Brighton's penalties ,penalties?...........and we cant ones that hit an arm that prevents a  goal bound effort and if i recall not even awarded a corner. VAR is still some other officials view and not necessarily that of the on field ref that has to view the game in real time. I agree with the whole goal line technology its over or not and it makes a noise that alerts the ref but, other contentious calls are view from all angles, how were the challenges on Djenepo not carded?.......remember his tackle on Newcastle player? at the time i was watching from the stadium and there seemed nothing  in it , and the official that day Graham Scott actually went to the pitch side monitor to change his thoughts and send him off. At the time everyone was incensed  and moments latter Boufal was penalized for hand ball penalty at the time ref played on only to be told hang on you missed a clear and obvious error. Var is still someone else's view and that's where it gets it wrong, if the ref didn't see it in real time don't ask for him to view it again in slow motion. Point of all this is Scott, Dean and Mason need to be put on furlough and the whole Var thing needs to be looked at and explained to the teams as to what is or isn't hand ball for starters and ,well don't get me started on the coming back from an offside position  like Bamford did against us and  Walcott flagged for offside against Villa at home when he received the ball in front of the Villas defence.

[Whitey Grandad]

23 minutes ago, Roo1976 said:

The whole VAR this season is becoming a season too long .Were any of Brighton's penalties ,penalties?...........and we cant ones that hit an arm that prevents a  goal bound effort and if i recall not even awarded a corner. VAR is still some other officials view and not necessarily that of the on field ref that has to view the game in real time. I agree with the whole goal line technology its over or not and it makes a noise that alerts the ref but, other contentious calls are view from all angles, how were the challenges on Djenepo not carded?.......remember his tackle on Newcastle player? at the time i was watching from the stadium and there seemed nothing  in it , and the official that day Graham Scott actually went to the pitch side monitor to change his thoughts and send him off. At the time everyone was incensed  and moments latter Boufal was penalized for hand ball penalty at the time ref played on only to be told hang on you missed a clear and obvious error. Var is still someone else's view and that's where it gets it wrong, if the ref didn't see it in real time don't ask for him to view it again in slow motion. Point of all this is Scott, Dean and Mason need to be put on furlough and the whole Var thing needs to be looked at and explained to the teams as to what is or isn't hand ball for starters and ,well don't get me started on the coming back from an offside position  like Bamford did against us and  Walcott flagged for offside against Villa at home when he received the ball in front of the Villas defence.

That Walcott offside was a very delayed flag. Armstrong had come back from an offside position earlier when received the ball at the half way line.

I hate delayed flags.

[S-Clarke]

51 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

Honestly this is just dumb. What do you mean 'god forbid you criticise them'. That's all that happens to refs! Refs are constantly abused, insulted, crowded around, sworn at. This idea that refs should front the media and take further abuse will only exacerbate problems. It would be a show trial by media. Do we hound at a player and make them front the media if they miss a 1v1?

We already have a major issue in retaining refs. Adding an even further level of stress and ultimately harrasment which will only mean we are left we even shitter refs. Refs will be like fuck this, it isn't worth it. 

This does not include Mike Riley. He should absolutely be fronting the media to explain what the fuck is going on. 

I'm guessing you are a referee.

[sydney_saint]

4 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I'm guessing you are a referee.

Thanks for your reasoned debate. 

[Chapel End]

1 hour ago, sydney_saint said:

Honestly this is just dumb. What do you mean 'god forbid you criticise them'. That's all that happens to refs! Refs are constantly abused, insulted, crowded around, sworn at. This idea that refs should front the media and take further abuse will only exacerbate problems. It would be a show trial by media. Do we hound at a player and make them front the media if they miss a 1v1?

We already have a major issue in retaining refs. Adding an even further level of stress and ultimately harrasment which will only mean we are left we even shitter refs. Refs will be like fuck this, it isn't worth it. 

This does not include Mike Riley. He should absolutely be fronting the media to explain what the fuck is going on. 

Does the media abuse players during interviews who make mistakes...... Not at all so why suggest they would abuse refs

Some of the utterly clueless decisions some make deserve closer scrutiny and should be explained by the refs.

Managers lose jobs and players are dropped or sold for repeated stupid errors but refs just carry on regardless of the extent of their ineptitude.

They just hide and hope it goes away

[The Cat]

Refs are a bit crap because a lot of potentially good ones get put off by the abuse they get at a young age.

Anyone who has even reffed kids games knows there is abuse dished out by parents and managers at that level, and that's in Southampton where it's relatively tame compared to other areas.

No idea why anyone would want to ref top flight games these days with the scrutiny they are under. It's obviously become harder and harder with the advent of social media and multiple camera angles showing up every mistake that's made. 

Saying that they don't always make it easy for themselves, especially when they are promoting buffoons like Lee Mason far above the level of their ineptitude.

It's a hard job. I'd like to see anyone ref a Tyro match and walk off thinking they didn't get an important decision wrong, let alone a Non-League or pro game. 

 

[sydney_saint]

44 minutes ago, Chapel End said:

Does the media abuse players during interviews who make mistakes...... Not at all so why suggest they would abuse refs

Some of the utterly clueless decisions some make deserve closer scrutiny and should be explained by the refs.

Managers lose jobs and players are dropped or sold for repeated stupid errors but refs just carry on regardless of the extent of their ineptitude.

They just hide and hope it goes away

Firstly, players are treated differently in football and held in a different regard. They are often either heros or villains and that can change on a weekly basis. It's easy for Dunk to get in front of the cameras, but what about one of the muppets who couldn't hit the target from 12 yards? Or when Lookman did his daft chip down the middle, was he shepherded in front of the cameras straight away to face the media scrutiny. 

Unlike players, the refs are either the villain or not noticed. They don't have that positive counter balance where they are lauded. Sure, take them in front of the cameras if they have a good game, give them a bottle of champagne and sing their name from the stands. But it won't happen like that. They will only be asked to face the media when there is little positive. I can assure you it will have detrimental impact on refereeing standards. I bet at grassroots the players, coaches, parents etc will then feel they can do the same to young ref who did their game. 

We need to get down to the structural problems of why refereeing standards are dropping. Why are talented refs dropping out so early. It's not enough to say 'you need to be thick skinned' to be a ref, cos that approach has clearly failed and is seeing standards drop.

We need to eliminate abuse at the grassroots level. I remember in one of my first games. I was 15. I was referring under 9s division 5 or something like that. And yet one of the 'men' and I mean that in the loosest sense possible, was gobbing off to me all fucking game. That happens regularly and is not okay. And whilst you may think refs are this protected species, I can tell you now they are not at grassroots. It's a pretty lonely place. I can also bet that the people harassing and abusing refs at grassroots levels are also bemoaning the refereeing standard in the EPL, without realising the two are linked.

Basically the only refs who stay on are either egotisitical maniacs who want the game to be about them and so don't give a shit about the abuse (see Mike Dean) or are so dumb and inept that they barely notice it either (see Mason). Those that are talented, love football and have a feel for the game by and large quit, with Michael Oliver just about the only exception to that. We need to that change but we need to do things properly

Edited 28 February, 2021 by sydney_saint

[Chapel End]

It's is not about mistakes as everyone makes them in whatever line of work they are in but the utter cluelessness of the decisions being made that draw the intense scrutiny are plain to see for all and deserve the criticism.

They are not mistakes, they are judgements made that are so wrong it's incredible and should not be just accepted without some kind of explaination being offered.

This simply cannot continue, they must be accountable for their actions and not just hide

No one is beyond criticism 

[Wurzel]

I see Lee Mason has been withdrawn from his next fixture Liverpool v Sheffield United due to pulling a muscle late on in the WBA v Brighton debacle

Yeah, of course he did. 🙄

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, The Cat said:

Refs are a bit crap because a lot of potentially good ones get put off by the abuse they get at a young age.

Anyone who has even reffed kids games knows there is abuse dished out by parents and managers at that level, and that's in Southampton where it's relatively tame compared to other areas.

No idea why anyone would want to ref top flight games these days with the scrutiny they are under. It's obviously become harder and harder with the advent of social media and multiple camera angles showing up every mistake that's made. 

Saying that they don't always make it easy for themselves, especially when they are promoting buffoons like Lee Mason far above the level of their ineptitude.

It's a hard job. I'd like to see anyone ref a Tyro match and walk off thinking they didn't get an important decision wrong, let alone a Non-League or pro game. 

 

I used to referee my nippers home games from U12 to U16, I used to get loads of abuse from parents and sometimes the kids. I can see why it would put people off. It was horrendous sometimes.

I always used to take a fuck you attitude and give decisions against the most abusive ones. I remember one game when our side were hanging on for a win, the opposition were pressing and the ball went off for a throw in. My nippers manger deliberately let the ball run under his foot and down the hill to waste time. I thought “fuck you” and played about an an extra 5 minutes . After the game I was having a well earnt pint in the bar and he said “where did you get that injury time from” ? I told him, “I added extra on because you acted like a dick”.  I once told an opposition parent to “fuck off” and got reported to the FA. There was a big investigation, but I just bullshitted and said I never did. The complainants club got fined for failing to control their patents. Yes I lied to the FA, but the bloke called me a cheat (which I wasn’t) so they were fair game in my opinion. I didn’t give much of a fick, because I knew I was doing my best, I can see why refs are considered arrogant, because you have to be. Any self doubt and it’ll kill you, and that was just nippers. 
 

 

Edited 28 February, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[redkeith]

I reffed a Sunday match once , when the proper one overslept. I explained to both captains that I was a stand in, so there was no point in arguing with me. I did 35 minutes and only gave one free kick. Very  well behaved. 

Then the actual ref turned up, and it all went to shit with about 4 bookings. 

They gave me some much more respect than  the  guy who was getting paid to do it.

Edited 28 February, 2021 by redkeith

[Chapel End]

59 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I used to referee my nippers home games from U12 to U16, I used to get loads of abuse from parents and sometimes the kids. I can see why it would put people off. It was horrendous sometimes.

I always used to take a fuck you attitude and give decisions against the most abusive ones. I remember one game when our side were hanging on for a win, the opposition were pressing and the ball went off for a throw in. My nippers manger deliberately let the ball run under his foot and down the hill to waste time. I thought “fuck you” and played about an an extra 5 minutes . After the game I was having a well earnt pint in the bar and he said “where did you get that injury time from” ? I told him, “I added extra on because you acted like a dick”.  I once told an opposition parent to “fuck off” and got reported to the FA. There was a big investigation, but I just bullshitted and said I never did. The complainants club got fined for failing to control their patents. Yes I lied to the FA, but the bloke called me a cheat (which I wasn’t) so they were fair game in my opinion. I didn’t give much of a fick, because I knew I was doing my best, I can see why refs are considered arrogant, because you have to be. Any self doubt and it’ll kill you, and that was just nippers. 
 

 

So you thought you would behave like a twat because someone else did...... 🙄

[sydney_saint]

1 hour ago, Chapel End said:

It's is not about mistakes as everyone makes them in whatever line of work they are in but the utter cluelessness of the decisions being made that draw the intense scrutiny are plain to see for all and deserve the criticism.

They are not mistakes, they are judgements made that are so wrong it's incredible and should not be just accepted without some kind of explaination being offered.

This simply cannot continue, they must be accountable for their actions and not just hide

No one is beyond criticism 

But what are you trying to acheive here? What's the outcome you want? What does 'held accountable' look like in practice?

Do you want the refs fined? Demoted? Sacked? 

Because none of that solves this mess. There are small handful of refs that should go immediately. Lee Mason, Mike Dean, imo Kevin Friend. They are either so inept or corrupt and do the game no good. But it's not like there is a generation of talented amazing super refs ready to take over from the Championship. Believe it or not, standards can drop even from here, and that is what most likely will happen if they all suddenly start getting promotions.

And fronting out the refs in front of the media isn't going to make this cohort of refs world class, just like chucking Nathan Redmond in the Man City side won't make him suddenly world class. 

The person who should be held accountable for inconsistent refereeing interpretations is Mike Riley. He should have to explain this. Because I think most of the refs are confused themselves. 

 

[Chapel End]

1 hour ago, sydney_saint said:

But what are you trying to acheive here? What's the outcome you want? What does 'held accountable' look like in practice?

Do you want the refs fined? Demoted? Sacked? 

Because none of that solves this mess. There are small handful of refs that should go immediately. Lee Mason, Mike Dean, imo Kevin Friend. They are either so inept or corrupt and do the game no good. But it's not like there is a generation of talented amazing super refs ready to take over from the Championship. Believe it or not, standards can drop even from here, and that is what most likely will happen if they all suddenly start getting promotions.

And fronting out the refs in front of the media isn't going to make this cohort of refs world class, just like chucking Nathan Redmond in the Man City side won't make him suddenly world class. 

The person who should be held accountable for inconsistent refereeing interpretations is Mike Riley. He should have to explain this. Because I think most of the refs are confused themselves. 

 

Yes, sacked if they continue to make the stupid decisions that have been documented,some of these idiots never learn and just continue in the same vein because they are not held to account. 

So are you saying we have to keep the terrible refs because we have no others? They need to train them to not make the obviously stupid decisions that every man and his dog can see. 

[sydney_saint]

23 minutes ago, Chapel End said:

Yes, sacked if they continue to make the stupid decisions that have been documented,some of these idiots never learn and just continue in the same vein because they are not held to account. 

So are you saying we have to keep the terrible refs because we have no others? They need to train them to not make the obviously stupid decisions that every man and his dog can see. 

But you still aren't showing how this will improve things. It's the equivalent of when a team is in a bad run of form and fans say 'sack the players, play the kids instead'. And then the kids do get played and then it becomes 'the kids are not good enough, they will never make it, why are we playing the kids'. Well duh. 

What you are suggesting is we start sacking refs, start promoting even worse refs, who will make mistakes, get sacked, so we promote even worse refs, who will make even more mistakes, who will get sacked...and that will do wonders to keep refs in refereeing....

I mentioned very clearly I think there are some refs that need to go immediately. But by and large, the current cohort are probably the best we have got, even if they are not good enough, and we have to make do with a bad situation. Mike Riley needs replacing and get someone in who understands football and at least get more consistency. In the same way teams replace the manager rather than sack the players. But most importantly we need to focus on improving the pipeline and retention. 

 

 

[SKD]

On 27/02/2021 at 19:35, Teddeer said:

Mike Dean takes immense delight in giving as many controversial decisions as possible against us. He loathes us and makes no attempt to hide the fact.

Hahahahaha idiot. 
 

arguably more of an idiotic post than your suggestion to play Redmond CM. 

Edited 28 February, 2021 by SKD

[Chapel End]

6 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

But you still aren't showing how this will improve things. It's the equivalent of when a team is in a bad run of form and fans say 'sack the players, play the kids instead'. And then the kids do get played and then it becomes 'the kids are not good enough, they will never make it, why are we playing the kids'. Well duh. 

What you are suggesting is we start sacking refs, start promoting even worse refs, who will make mistakes, get sacked, so we promote even worse refs, who will make even more mistakes, who will get sacked...and that will do wonders to keep refs in refereeing....

I mentioned very clearly I think there are some refs that need to go immediately. But by and large, the current cohort are probably the best we have got, even if they are not good enough, and we have to make do with a bad situation. Mike Riley needs replacing and get someone in who understands football and at least get more consistency. In the same way teams replace the manager rather than sack the players. But most importantly we need to focus on improving the pipeline and retention. 

 

 

They are not actual mistakes, they showing they gave little grasp of what is right or wrong, some penalties,non penalties, handball and non handball decisions are ludicrous and cannot be allowed to continually be repeated.

Education for new refs and re education of what is handball, what is a penalty or offside for these serial offenders. 

If they are not up to it, like in any job the time is up.

In employment at any other business it would not be tolerated over and over 

[stknowle]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I used to referee my nippers home games from U12 to U16, I used to get loads of abuse from parents and sometimes the kids. I can see why it would put people off. It was horrendous sometimes.

I always used to take a fuck you attitude and give decisions against the most abusive ones. I remember one game when our side were hanging on for a win, the opposition were pressing and the ball went off for a throw in. My nippers manger deliberately let the ball run under his foot and down the hill to waste time. I thought “fuck you” and played about an an extra 5 minutes . After the game I was having a well earnt pint in the bar and he said “where did you get that injury time from” ? I told him, “I added extra on because you acted like a dick”.  I once told an opposition parent to “fuck off” and got reported to the FA. There was a big investigation, but I just bullshitted and said I never did. The complainants club got fined for failing to control their patents. Yes I lied to the FA, but the bloke called me a cheat (which I wasn’t) so they were fair game in my opinion. I didn’t give much of a fick, because I knew I was doing my best, I can see why refs are considered arrogant, because you have to be. Any self doubt and it’ll kill you, and that was just nippers. 
 

 

Did you ever ref chicks footy?

[East Kent Saint]

In the old days in school hockey I heard the umpire muttering “If they appeal for a decision they are not going to get one” 

[sydney_saint]

19 minutes ago, Chapel End said:

They are not actual mistakes, they showing they gave little grasp of what is right or wrong, some penalties,non penalties, handball and non handball decisions are ludicrous and cannot be allowed to continually be repeated.

Education for new refs and re education of what is handball, what is a penalty or offside for these serial offenders. 

If they are not up to it, like in any job the time is up.

In employment at any other business it would not be tolerated over and over 

But how does this improve things??? I keep asking that and you keep avoiding it. You don't see umpires fronting up to the media. You don't see rugby refs doing it. Heck, you don't see higher standard football refs in other countries doing it.

I'm in complete agreement that the education over handball is a shambles. But that has largely come from the top. Which I am in massive favour of changing. But sacking refs, most of which are the best of a shocking bunch, doesn't help things in the short term. Cos we will only get even worse refs out of their depth. And in the medium and long run will only cause damage to the pipeline and future talent.

A new person at the top can quickly determine which refs are passed their sell by date (Mason, Dean etc) and then focus on getting more consistency. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 February, 2021 by sydney_saint

[Chapel End]

1 minute ago, sydney_saint said:

But how does this improve things??? I keep asking that and you keep avoiding it. You don't see umpirest fronting up to the media. You don't see rugby refs doing it. Heck, you don't see higher standard football refs in other countries doing it.

I'm in complete agreement that the education over handball is a shambles. But that has largely come from the top. Which I am in massive favour of changing. But sacking refs, most of which are the best of a shocking bunch, doesn't help things in the short term. And in the medium and long run will only cause damage to the pipeline and future talent. 

 

 

 

 

I have answered it 

Education is required to ensure they don't make repeated decisions that the rest of the universe can see are completely and utterly wrong.

Teach correct interpretation

Show them the ludicrous decisions again and again until they see it correctly and if they still can't grasp reality there time has to be up.

The decisions in question are indisputable 

[Lord Duckhunter]

8 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

In the old days in school hockey I heard the umpire muttering “If they appeal for a decision they are not going to get one” 

That was pretty much my policy. The more obnoxious the kid or set of parents, the less they got. Including my own son and his team. 
 

My mate was a cricket umpire and he told me about an incident he had during a game. He’d turned down 2 LBW appeals from the same bowler who was giving him stick and moaning about him to the other players loudly, finally the batsman misses one and the stumps went flying. The bowler turns round and says to my mate, “that’s one even you can’t give not out”, my mate said back “wanna bet” before raising his arm sideways and shouting “no ball”. 

[sydney_saint]

6 minutes ago, Chapel End said:

I have answered it 

Education is required to ensure they don't make repeated decisions that the rest of the universe can see are completely and utterly wrong.

Teach correct interpretation

Show them the ludicrous decisions again and again until they see it correctly and if they still can't grasp reality there time has to be up.

The decisions in question are indisputable 

So why do we need refs fronting up in front of the media for that to happen? It's actually quite a different point you are making.

But that is happening right now. You think refs spend the week sitting around in their pants? The education and guidance they are getting is unacceptable, but that starts from the top. Which is what needs to change. You can have the change in education and interpretations without the need to start creating a further environment of stress and harassments for refs. 

[badgerx16]

11 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

That was pretty much my policy. The more obnoxious the kid or set of parents, the less they got. Including my own son and his team. 
 

My mate was a cricket umpire and he told me about an incident he had during a game. He’d turned down 2 LBW appeals from the same bowler who was giving him stick and moaning about him to the other players loudly, finally the batsman misses one and the stumps went flying. The bowler turns round and says to my mate, “that’s one even you can’t give not out”, my mate said back “wanna bet” before raising his arm sideways and shouting “no ball”. 

My favourite cricket umpire story was way back in a Gloucester v Lancashire Gillette Cup match in 1971. Lancs were batting and needed 25 from the last 5 overs, but it was getting quite dark, so David Hughes, the Lancashire batsman, asked the umpire whether there was a case for suspending play for bad light, whereupon umpire Jepson replied "There's the Moon, how far do you want to see ?" - Lancashire won the match.

Edited 28 February, 2021 by badgerx16

[Chapel End]

1 hour ago, sydney_saint said:

So why do we need refs fronting up in front of the media for that to happen? It's actually quite a different point you are making.

But that is happening right now. You think refs spend the week sitting around in their pants? The education and guidance they are getting is unacceptable, but that starts from the top. Which is what needs to change. You can have the change in education and interpretations without the need to start creating a further environment of stress and harassments for refs. 

They have to front up because bizarrely they think these decisions are correct so let them explain why they believe this to be.

If they did come out and front up they might get some credit and respect for it,  hiding is just pathetic 

This education you say they are getting is clearly not working is it?

They are never called to account so it matters nothing to them, actually coming out and admitting being wrong may help everyone learn and improve.

I done on this subject for now, cheers for the debate, we must just agree to disagree 👍

[Roo1976]

5 hours ago, sydney_saint said:

But what are you trying to acheive here? What's the outcome you want? What does 'held accountable' look like in practice?

Do you want the refs fined? Demoted? Sacked? 

Because none of that solves this mess. There are small handful of refs that should go immediately. Lee Mason, Mike Dean, imo Kevin Friend. They are either so inept or corrupt and do the game no good. But it's not like there is a generation of talented amazing super refs ready to take over from the Championship. Believe it or not, standards can drop even from here, and that is what most likely will happen if they all suddenly start getting promotions.

And fronting out the refs in front of the media isn't going to make this cohort of refs world class, just like chucking Nathan Redmond in the Man City side won't make him suddenly world class. 

The person who should be held accountable for inconsistent refereeing interpretations is Mike Riley. He should have to explain this. Because I think most of the refs are confused themselves. 

 

chucking Nathan Redmond in the Man City side won't make him suddenly world class.  but he might get told to cross the ball rather than pass it back

[eurosaint]

Peter Walton, retired referee and resident 'expert' on Sky Sports recently said "VAR is not here to make correct decisions, purely to point out clear and obvious errors" !

Putting aside the nonsensity of his remark (surely the right decision is paramount) all it does is give the VAR ref the opportunity to support his onfield colleague. Mistakes are often not overruled ie. Saints v Wolves, Scott gave the one against Bertrand but not against Dendoncker, I am sure that had he given them the other way around he would have been supported also !

Re. handball. I know it was never perfect but surely the principle of 'intentional' or otherwise has to be gone back to ??

[SKD]

15 minutes ago, eurosaint said:

Peter Walton, retired referee and resident 'expert' on Sky Sports recently said "VAR is not here to make correct decisions, purely to point out clear and obvious errors" !

Putting aside the nonsensity of his remark (surely the right decision is paramount) all it does is give the VAR ref the opportunity to support his onfield colleague. Mistakes are often not overruled ie. Saints v Wolves, Scott gave the one against Bertrand but not against Dendoncker, I am sure that had he given them the other way around he would have been supported also !

Re. handball. I know it was never perfect but surely the principle of 'intentional' or otherwise has to be gone back to ??

The issue with VAR is it’s not being used just for the clear and obvious mistakes. If it was, then they wouldn’t need lines or 3/4+ reply’s to make a decision, if they do, it’s clearly not an obvious decision. 
 

For me, VAR should only be used for the absolute howler (Gabbidini’s offside goal in the cup final. Hand of god x 2. A blatant dive or blatant foul missed etc.). You’d get some decision go for you, some against you. Trying to get every single decision right is killing the game and imo, they’re still not getting them right. 
 

Things I’d do to improve from a fans perspective; 

- Restrict to 2 reply’s, max.

- Remove the offside lines. 

- Improve the standard of referring and remove Mike Riley from PGMOL. 

- Get tougher on diving. Seems like regardless of a dive, if there’s contact any contact, regardless of if they’re going down, they give a penalty (Martial, for example). Seemingly getting better at this in recent weeks 

[East Kent Saint]

VAR has now undermined on field refs and is a separate debating point . Man U claiming they are hard done by is an illustration of how stupid it’s become. No way a penalty in other words Ole !

[Trader]

Peter Walton gave one of the worst refereeing performances I have ever seen in a home match when we were in League One.

 Can’t remember who we were playing - but I think we won.

[LiberalCommunist]

I want the refs to feel the criticism, whether that's MOTD or on the big tech. As there is seemingly no accountability within the job, and the cowards at the PGMOL don't feel the need to show any respect for the game or fans, then at least the message has a way of getting through to them. Do I condone death threats and abuse, no I do not. But if I don't do my job properly, I fully expect people to tell me so. So after the match, stand in front of the camera and tell us how you came to the decision. Show more transparency. Be more consistent. And if you can't do any of that, don't moan about being victim when the world starts to moan in your direction. Its a paid position which requires athletic stamina and mental strength, and half of them are stealing a living at this moment.  

[kwsaint]

7 minutes ago, Trader said:

Peter Walton gave one of the worst refereeing performances I have ever seen in a home match when we were in League One.

 Can’t remember who we were playing - but I think we won.

Are you thinking of when we beat Brighton 3-0 in the 2011/12 Championship season?  Peter Walton was the ref for that game and was shockingly bad.  We got two penalties - one was outside the box (Fonte) and the other was when Lambert went down when hardly touched.  But he missed two stonewall penalties - both for assaults on Lambert from crosses.  

Brighton were a horrible Gus Poyet team at the time so didn't deserve much sympathy.  In the return game they again targeted RL and contrived to get him sent off.

[saintwbu]

1 hour ago, Trader said:

Peter Walton gave one of the worst refereeing performances I have ever seen in a home match when we were in League One.

 Can’t remember who we were playing - but I think we won.

Leeds at home if it’s not the Brighton one mentioned above. Hall of fame.

[Trader]

I was thinking it was either Brighton or Leeds - maybe it was both which somehow got mixed up in my brain.

Whichever it was, he gave some truly bizarre decisions, both for us and against, so I can’t really accuse him of bias. He was just shockingly bad, and I think a Premier League referee at the time.

[Wurzel]

18 hours ago, sydney_saint said:

But how does this improve things??? I keep asking that and you keep avoiding it. You don't see umpires fronting up to the media. You don't see rugby refs doing it. Heck, you don't see higher standard football refs in other countries doing it.

I'm in complete agreement that the education over handball is a shambles. But that has largely come from the top. Which I am in massive favour of changing. But sacking refs, most of which are the best of a shocking bunch, doesn't help things in the short term. Cos we will only get even worse refs out of their depth. And in the medium and long run will only cause damage to the pipeline and future talent.

A new person at the top can quickly determine which refs are passed their sell by date (Mason, Dean etc) and then focus on getting more consistency. 

 

 

 

 

BIB You don't see cricket umpires or rugby refs fronting up to the media because they don't need to. The outcome of any of their decisions that are referred to their equivalents of VAR are clearly explained at the time to players, spectators and TV audience.

[Lord Duckhunter]

9 minutes ago, Wurzel said:

BIB You don't see cricket umpires or rugby refs fronting up to the media because they don't need to. The outcome of any of their decisions that are referred to their equivalents of VAR are clearly explained at the time to players, spectators and TV audience.

We’ve just had a rugby international with a farcical refereeing performance.

[East Kent Saint]

And questionable 3rd umpire decisions in India apart from the usual unsuitable pitches for cricket at any level.

The usual Indian tactic was to fix the pitch for the first test so India went one up then set the rest of the pitches to produce high scoring draws.

[benjii]

Here's a proper implementation by refs and authorities that aren't gutless nerds. 

 

[ChrisPY]

13 minutes ago, benjii said:

Here's a proper implementation by refs and authorities that aren't gutless nerds. 

 

As with any short clip, we don’t know how good these refs actually are but given the amount of money in the Premier League, is there any reason we can’t try and get the best refs from across the world to move here if we can give them the financial incentive to do so?

Don’t see any reason such a big global brand would limit itself to English officials if there’s better out there.

[Chapel End]

7 minutes ago, ChrisPY said:

As with any short clip, we don’t know how good these refs actually are but given the amount of money in the Premier League, is there any reason we can’t try and get the best refs from across the world to move here if we can give them the financial incentive to do so?

Don’t see any reason such a big global brand would limit itself to English officials if there’s better out there.

Because the football authorities think we have the best refs, and there is the problem 

[Manuel]

23 minutes ago, benjii said:

Here's a proper implementation by refs and authorities that aren't gutless nerds. 

 

It would certainly remove a lot of the uncertainty as to why decisions have been given.  I wonder if secretly we enjoy trying to work out what on earth the ref's thinking there.  Having to fathom it out for yourself or discuss it down the pub (or on a forum).  

[davefizzy14]

1 minute ago, Chapel End said:

Because the football authorities think we have the best refs, and there is the problem 

The level of officiating this season even with the help of VAR has been a complete farce. We've been hit the hardest with some of the worst decisions being made in my opinion. The level of officiating in the Villa home game was insanely bad but in the Man Utd game it took it to another level. So angry that we had so many wrongful decisions go against us since January! The quality of refereeing in the PL needs to be looked at seriously, there are only one or two decent refs - the rest are just inept and a laughing stock.

[Chapel End]

Just now, davefizzy14 said:

The level of officiating this season even with the help of VAR has been a complete farce. We've been hit the hardest with some of the worst decisions being made in my opinion. The level of officiating in the Villa home game was insanely bad but in the Man Utd game it took it to another level. So angry that we had so many wrongful decisions go against us since January! The quality of refereeing in the PL needs to be looked at seriously, there are only one or two decent refs - the rest are just inept and a laughing stock.

Yep, fully agree

[Noodles34]

What a difference last night. 
Proper ref, let’s the game flow, makes instant decisions and not all about him. 
of course there are contentious decisions, should have booked one of there’s for an foul on Mousa, but you are going to get them and would take them over VAR any day. 

[LiberalCommunist]

I think Martin, in his desperation to stay out of the limelight made quite a few blunders last night. But, in comparison to recent weeks, it was much better. 

DCL's flappy arms will soon be noticed, he won't keep getting away with putting his hands in the face of opponents, its not violent content, but it does nullify the defender, a poke in the eye often has this consequence. The high boot by MS, got lovely contact on the ball, could go either way. And finally, on to the challenges MD suffered. Had that been the other way round, they would have surrounded the ref forcing him to red card the offending player. Hell, they were nearly doing that with nothing 50/50's. But, everyone hates MD, including Ings who seems to consider him irrelevant, so anything goes. Some of the treatment he gets by the opposition is totally out of order, and the lack of protection by officials is criminal. So he's theatrical, that does not justify it. I expect we'll lose him to a ankle injury before the end of the season at this rate. 

Anyway, blue line drawn, time to move on and start my eternal gaze at ref watch in the hope they intensify the pressure on themselves and piss off some other club.

 

[Ted Bates Statue]

16 hours ago, Manuel said:

It would certainly remove a lot of the uncertainty as to why decisions have been given.  I wonder if secretly we enjoy trying to work out what on earth the ref's thinking there.  Having to fathom it out for yourself or discuss it down the pub (or on a forum).  

Years ago I heard a top referee claim that VAR would ruin the joy of discussing the merits of a referring decision post-match. At the time I thought that opinion was absolute nonsense and I understand he has thoroughly changed his mind on this also. First and foremost, just get the bloody decisions right!!!

The sooner that happens, the quicker we can get back to moaning about Redmond or whoever our official Saints scapegoat is at any given time. Or god forbid, actually celebrating getting a point or three.