Time to Bin VAR

[Lord Duckhunter]

According to John Giles on The Stand podcast, the VAR official decides which footage the referee sees pitch side. Therefore if the VAR thinks it’s a foul he only shows footage that backs this up, rather than another angle which may create more doubt. I don’t know if true, but it could be, there’s so much footage that the ref probably can’t watch every angle of an incident in an acceptable timescale. 

Edited 6 September, 2022 by Lord Duckhunter

[Turkish]

Lee Mason given the boot, awful referee and awful on VAR

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11183107/Lee-Mason-removed-Premier-Leagues-group-VAR-officials.html#l7qg9xuirzeqtzj3xj

 

Edited 6 September, 2022 by Turkish

[Turkish]

4 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

According to John Giles on The Stand podcast, the VAR official decides which footage the referee sees pitch side. Therefore if the VAR thinks it’s a foul he only shows footage that backs this up, rather than another angle which may create more doubt. I don’t know if true, but it could be, there’s so much footage that the ref probably can’t watch every angle of an incident in an acceptable timescale. 

Shearer said that the VAR guy that disallowed the Newcastle goal (Mason I think) didn’t show the ref all the angles including the ones which showed clearly the goal should have stood

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Shearer said that the VAR guy that disallowed the Newcastle goal (Mason I think) didn’t show the ref all the angles including the ones which showed clearly the goal should have stood

If true it’s a massive issue. Giles & Shearer have both said it, so maybe there’s something in it. The VAR can basically say “it should be disallowed and here’s the footage  to back that opinion up”. 

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

If true it’s a massive issue. Giles & Shearer have both said it, so maybe there’s something in it. The VAR can basically say “it should be disallowed and here’s the footage  to back that opinion up”. 

Yes it’s a big problem, isn’t the whole point of the ref review for him to review it not for the VAR guy to prove he got it wrong? If they’re only showing angles that make it appear VAR was right then that’s completely wrong 

[OttawaSaint]

37 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Shearer said that the VAR guy that disallowed the Newcastle goal (Mason I think) didn’t show the ref all the angles including the ones which showed clearly the goal should have stood

Most of these refs are extremely petty minded and I can almost see in my minds eye, Mason with a big grin only sending the one angle and saying, "that'll teach you to question me Newcastle". 

Needs to be a tool for refs to use if they are not sure, not a way to influence matches.

[Saint-Michael]

Var is a great tool if used correctly one of the biggest problems with football is the that the rules are not defined enough they should be black and white right or wrong . The game and rules are abused by players diving so much. I believe a strong crackdown on diving should happen its getting ridiculous .

[adrian lord]

On 05/09/2022 at 17:44, Piran said:

What? Like Peter Walton (?) on BT Sport?

I said top referees!

[Roo1976]

On 06/09/2022 at 18:26, Turkish said:

Yes it’s a big problem, isn’t the whole point of the ref review for him to review it not for the VAR guy to prove he got it wrong? If they’re only showing angles that make it appear VAR was right then that’s completely wrong 

Premier League has zero VARs at World Cup as FIFA announces list of officials for Qatar. The Premier League is the only major league in Europe without a single official selected to act as video assistant referee (VAR) at the World Cup in Qatar this year. Just goes to show how well we are fucking up the refs help.

[LiberalCommunist]

Christ, VAR really stitched up Fulham. That was frankly, quite disgraceful. 

Its starting to feel like, who's going to get lucky with decisions in the next round of games. Seems to benefit the bigger teams, that's the only consistency I can find. 

[Manuel]

Thought Rashford's goal yesterday was rightly disallowed after seeing the replays, harsh as it seemed.

[Wurzel]

Just seen the West Ham v Bournemouth highlights. Does anyone - and I include referees and VAR officials - understand what is handball any more?

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Wurzel said:

Just seen the West Ham v Bournemouth highlights. Does anyone - and I include referees and VAR officials - understand what is handball any more?

Nope, not me. The only opinion that matters is Mike Dean’s apparently.

[Dellman]

1 hour ago, Wurzel said:

Just seen the West Ham v Bournemouth highlights. Does anyone - and I include referees and VAR officials - understand what is handball any more?

No, I don't understand. It has become so complicated and technical. It's now something to do with whether the arm is in a natural position.  WHAT! Who decides what is a natural position? That raises hundreds of opinions and will cause more disputes than ever. And will any two ;people agree? Does every player now have to jump with their arms straight down their side?

[skintsaint]

I thought a few weeks ago they said that if the ball touches the hand/arm of an attacking player at any point in the build up to the goal then its disallowed, whether intentional or not. Seems its not the case. So confusing.

[rooney]

On 06/09/2022 at 18:14, Turkish said:

Lee Mason given the boot, awful referee and awful on VAR

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11183107/Lee-Mason-removed-Premier-Leagues-group-VAR-officials.html#l7qg9xuirzeqtzj3xj

 

He was back in on one of the weekend games as reported by one of the commentators. I cannot remember which game.

[Saint Garrett]

6 hours ago, skintsaint said:

I thought a few weeks ago they said that if the ball touches the hand/arm of an attacking player at any point in the build up to the goal then its disallowed, whether intentional or not. Seems its not the case. So confusing.

That was last years rules I think. They changed it, so now it's only if it hits the arm of the player that scores it's now given as handball. 
The pen though, thats not been given all season, it's the same as Salisu's last week.

[Whitey Grandad]

11 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

That was last years rules I think. They changed it, so now it's only if it hits the arm of the player that scores it's now given as handball. 
The pen though, thats not been given all season, it's the same as Salisu's last week.

Salisu's came off his thigh.

[Turkish]

11 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

That was last years rules I think. They changed it, so now it's only if it hits the arm of the player that scores it's now given as handball. 
The pen though, thats not been given all season, it's the same as Salisu's last week.

Didn't they change it during the season? they definitely did with a similar rule. I remember there were several goals disallowed early last season for that rule then they changed it, which is a disgrace as some teams would have benefited from the rule change and got points from it which would have changed the overall final position. You cant change rules midseason for such important things as for goals.

[CheshireSaint]

9 hours ago, Dellman said:

No, I don't understand. It has become so complicated and technical. It's now something to do with whether the arm is in a natural position.  WHAT! Who decides what is a natural position? That raises hundreds of opinions and will cause more disputes than ever. And will any two ;people agree? Does every player now have to jump with their arms straight down their side?

I agree. This 'natural position' nonsense is exactly that. When a player runs and turns and jumps etc., the body uses limbs to compensate and maintain balance. During this activity, arms especially, can be all over the place but they will always be absolutely 'naturally' positioned. We don't decide where our arms go as we run left then right and then jump for a ball. If you break your arm and it is hanging backwards at a right angle, that would be unnatural. Stupid rule and another one that was introduced to make things more simple and instead, has created a monster. Back in the day, 'ball to arm' was considered accidental and 'hand ball' was considered to be deliberate. The only grey area was judging if a players hand / arm went toward the ball as a conscious decision or whether it was a natural, subconscious movement. Unfortunately, that grey cannot be sanitised into black and white and we have to accept that, but in a bid to make everything black and white, we are off down another rabbit hole where neither black or white exists. 

Still, decision makers get paid to review and introduce new interpretations to laws, additional refs get paid to monitor VAR and so there is a market for this shy-terry to be further exploited. We could go back to basics but the gravy train would have to come to a halt. Mike Dean by the way....where do I start? The Tony Blair of refereeing.  

[Whitey Grandad]

27 minutes ago, CheshireSaint said:

I agree. This 'natural position' nonsense is exactly that. When a player runs and turns and jumps etc., the body uses limbs to compensate and maintain balance. During this activity, arms especially, can be all over the place but they will always be absolutely 'naturally' positioned. We don't decide where our arms go as we run left then right and then jump for a ball. If you break your arm and it is hanging backwards at a right angle, that would be unnatural. Stupid rule and another one that was introduced to make things more simple and instead, has created a monster. Back in the day, 'ball to arm' was considered accidental and 'hand ball' was considered to be deliberate. The only grey area was judging if a players hand / arm went toward the ball as a conscious decision or whether it was a natural, subconscious movement. Unfortunately, that grey cannot be sanitised into black and white and we have to accept that, but in a bid to make everything black and white, we are off down another rabbit hole where neither black or white exists. 

Still, decision makers get paid to review and introduce new interpretations to laws, additional refs get paid to monitor VAR and so there is a market for this shy-terry to be further exploited. We could go back to basics but the gravy train would have to come to a halt. Mike Dean by the way....where do I start? The Tony Blair of refereeing.  

The most unnatural position is when a defender tucks his hands behind his back.

[once_bitterne]

It needs to be replaced with CSS.  (common sense system).

[aintforever]

11 hours ago, Dellman said:

No, I don't understand. It has become so complicated and technical. It's now something to do with whether the arm is in a natural position.  WHAT! Who decides what is a natural position? That raises hundreds of opinions and will cause more disputes than ever. And will any two ;people agree? Does every player now have to jump with their arms straight down their side?

There is always going to grey areas whatever the rules. The natural position is obviously open to interpretation but makes sense to stop players trying to block a shot with their arm and getting away with it because they were so close.

What doesn't make sense is how Mike Dean still works as a ref. Is there no-one overseeing the standards of refs nowadays, or is he just mates with the right people?

[manina-pub]

VAR does appear to be some kind of extra marketing tool for BT/SKY to talk about and generates another form of "entertainment".

We've replaced one dodgy system for another - all open to various forms of interpretation - and that includes offside - thickness of the line my arse.

Bin it and just use goal line tech.  

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

That was last years rules I think. They changed it, so now it's only if it hits the arm of the player that scores it's now given as handball. 
The pen though, thats not been given all season, it's the same as Salisu's last week.

Correct. 
 

When VAR was first used the handball rule was amended so that any handball, intentional or not, which resulted in a goal would be chalked off. 

Now you can accidentally handle the ball and assist a goal. The goalscorer can’t, but anyone else can. 

Edited 25 October, 2022 by Lord Duckhunter

[benjii]

What really annoys me with handball is the "self-deflection" get out (I.e. that Matt Cash penalty we didn't get last season because the ball brushed his shorts before he caught it).

If anything, that's an aggravating factor, not a get out of jail card. There's just no logic to it. 

 

[Saint86]

22 hours ago, benjii said:

What really annoys me with handball is the "self-deflection" get out (I.e. that Matt Cash penalty we didn't get last season because the ball brushed his shorts before he caught it).

If anything, that's an aggravating factor, not a get out of jail card. There's just no logic to it. 

 

If a goalbound shot is stopped by a hand/arm - its a penalty in my book. It may be an accident (fair enough), but its still stopped the other team having a potential shot - the fair response is to give them a penalty and give the keeper a chance to save it. Just ignoring the fact that they'd have scored but for a stray arm is nonsense.

If jesus had hit a pearler going for the top corner and it hits salisu's arm 1m into its trajectory - could fan's legitimately grumble that they get a penalty? if it was deliberately stopped by an outfield player obviously using their arm/hand to save the shot - that should be a penalty and booking.

Edited 26 October, 2022 by Saint86

[Wurzel]

On 25/10/2022 at 11:54, once_bitterne said:

It needs to be replaced with CSS.  (common sense system).

For me common sense is if your arms are in front of your torso, provided you don't deliberately control it with them, play on, it would have hit your torso anyway. If they are outside of your torso then free kick, if it hadn't hit the arms it would have gone past you. Forget natural position, forgot intent, if it wouldn't have hit another part of your body if the arm wasn't there then it's a fk.  A caveat is needed for distance to prevent players aiming for the arms, a couple of metres should be enough to pull an extended arm out of the way.

[LiberalCommunist]

Bump

[Southner]

3 hours ago, LiberalCommunist said:

Bump

Edited 2 March, 2023 by Southner

[Saint86]

Shocking decision in the Leeds game tonight, ultimatley giving west brom a draw. No excuse for mistakes like that.