Man Utd 9-0 Saints - Match Thread

[East Kent Saint]

Rashford told us Jose taught them all about winning pens for the team !

[st alex]

1 hour ago, eurosaint said:

As per the Villa game, ALL of the ex-players commenting on TV were perplexed about the VAR decisions and considered them to be largely unfair !

Two ex Utd players (Ferdinand & Dublin) both said that these incidents are detracting from the spectacle of football as a whole !

I've suggested before that ex players should be involved in the VAR room (adding some perspective to the process) and I stick with that, it's certainly worth a go as right now there's more discussion about borderline technicalities than anything else...

Ps. Anyone know if there's a good plastic surgeon available to remove the smirk from Mike Dean's face 🤤?

Surely if you have ex players reviewing VAR decisions then it raises questions of impartiality. You'd consistently need players with no previous connections to either team and with no grudges against players or teams. The players would also need to be free from any club ambassador roles, coaching roles, probably even media roles in order for them to have any chance of avoiding accusations of bias or self interest.

[East Kent Saint]

I admit I gave up last night and , Likely Lads style , tried to avoid the final result this morning but it was a bit of a shock to see 9 -0 and 2 reds .  

[Fozzybear]

4 hours ago, Shroppie said:

In the cold light of day, I’ll attempt some rational answers.

Do I blame Ralph? Emphatically no. He might have tweaked the team a bit but basically he put out the best he could. Two Academy players given their big chance. Ramsey made a decent go of it. More on Jankewitz to follow.

Some will blame the owners and lack of investment. Is that realistic? In the current situation there's no money anywhere. Yes, I'd have liked two quality FBs. But with Bertrand and KWP firm first choices we struggled to get loans in as they'd want game time, which we can't guarantee. Buying players to challenge at FB was never happening.

Then who was to blame? I’m putting Jankewitz top of the list. He’s a professional football player who acted in a reckless way and destroyed the team’s confidence and the game plan in one moment. You could see the shock on other players’ faces and he got little sympathy leaving.

Tactics? No. I’m sure Ralph planned to play our usual pressing game, take the game to MU, push our wing backs up and keep theirs pinned back. He never got a chance. We hadn’t even settled into the game when Jankewitz blew it. A key part of our play is the central ball out to the DMs who can then bring the others in. Once a man short there, we couldn’t get out. And we rely on the DMs pressing, harrying and winning balls in midfield. JWP couldn’t do that alone, so Armstrong, Djenepo, Ings and Adams all found themselves forced back. It then became backs to the wall with a lot of chasing of a team with all the time to be patient and make us run. And we were tired. No chance of rotation just 72 hours after the last game. United made four changes with ridiculous quality left in the bench.

I’m not going to analyse every player as I thought the ones left on the pitch worked hard, but with belief totally shot. There was plenty of frustrated anger too.

Officials? Dean was absolutely disgraceful. Jankewitz deserved red. No argument. But he gave a string of one-sided decisions on fouls. He gave a pen for a foul outside the box which VAR did, amazingly, correct (much to Savage’s anger) I don’t think I’m imagining it when I say he was almost deferential to the MU players whilst being to opposite to us. The Che offside goal was nowhere near offside and only VAR can be blamed for that. What were they looking at? The end of Che’s long-sleeved shirt? No idea. That would have made a difference, not to the final result, but to lifting spirits. I’m sure that at 1-4 we wouldn’t have gone on to concede 9. Then Martial seemed very close to offside for his goal and we didn’t even pause for a check. No careful manipulation of lines for him.

But the key incident that turned the game from a bad defeat to a disaster was obviously the Bednarek penalty. Dean couldn’t wait to give it, VAR was too weak to overturn it, although of course we still have the “clear and obvious error” which I assume swayed them. This interpretation is so subjective: depending on the team involved, VAR can search for ages for something to call clear and obvious, or quickly sweep it aside. Often there’s a refs union that thinks it’s good to back each other up. I’m sure if Dean hadn’t given it, VAR would have quickly agreed. And we don’t know what was said when he was called to the screen, which only seemed to show one freeze frame. Was it “Don’t think that’s a foul - take a look” or “if you give that maybe you have to send him off” Either way, once VAR failed to do its job and bottled it, there’s no way the arrogant twat objectively reviews it. And delights in flourishing the red. That finished us off: without that it’s 6-0. Not good, but I’d have taken it.

This rule about not attempting to play the ball is a perfect example if how Laws are being tweaked (offside and handball are others, but life is too short) without careful consideration of the exact wording to avoid vagueness and misinterpretation. There needs to be a clear inclusion of there being INTENT to foul the player without trying to get the ball. Bednarek’s contact (if at all) was after Martial started falling, he was trying to pull out and there was absolutely no intent to commit a cynical foul to stop a goal.

Ralph has picked the team up before and he’ll do it again. I hope I never see Jankewitz again.

Rant over. Blue line. Move on.

Very well said - pretty well sums it up for me. 

[cambsaint]

The conspiracy theorisy asks if VAR stands for Value Added Replay, and who benefits from the added  value?

I'm not really serious but whereas replays work well in cricket where you have umpires call for minute decisions they don't seem to be working well in football, where the player isn't fairly stationary like a batsman but moving usually very quickly.

some very serious discussions need to take place in the closed season

one can imagine mike deans reception when he next meets a live Ssint's crowd, oresumably he will be greeted on to the pith with a resounding chant of "cheat"

 

[JRM]

1 hour ago, Born In The 80s said:

You're totally correct. I switched off after they disallowed this. They are literally changing rules (sleeve/arm/part of body) to suit the narrative that they want to create. It's the clearest sign of corruption i've seen in quite some time. Let's face it: 9-0 is a great story for the league and the ref did everything he could to ensure it happened.

I honestly don't think I've ever been less enthusiastic about football. It's so boring analysing refereeing decisions after every single game. I suppose the only good thing VAR has shown is how truly bent this league is. When using technology, there is nothing to hide behind. 

Exactly the same as me, I watched it a few times and just could not understand how that goal was disallowed,  final straw. BT commentators seemed happy with the decision (unlikely the penalty which Savage would not shut up about) 

Offside decisions like that must be switching more and more people off. Sad times, spontaneous goal celebrations a thing of the past. Wait for VAR review first. 

[Charlie Wayman]

2 hours ago, maysie said:

And who would you replace him with nobby?

Cheap reply. 

[cambsaint]

The owners' are wholly to blame as you shouldn't go anywhere near Premiership football ownership if you can't afford it. The Prem management ought to institute financial checks as well in the ownership checks and imo should insist on a large deposit into a reserve fund which cannot be withdrawn except on sale. We shouldn't allow chancer's who are looking for a quick gain to go anywhere near ownership. If an owner wants to make a profit then buy a club in the ower divisions, invest wisely and get into the Prem and then if you want take your profit if you can find a very deep pocketted buyer.

I

[Clash City Saint]

It’s not been mentioned but did the PGMOL statement about having made two incorrect decisions against Man U which cost them 3 points against Sheffield and maybe 5 after not performing against Arsenal and even their chances of winning the league on the eve of the game have any bearing of the microscope they were going to be putting themselves under in any future VAR decisions made regarding United? They obviously didn’t want to fuel any anti-Utd biases that were being thrown at them and ultimately at our expense. 

[cambsaint]

Fortunately for me Tuesday is my online Bridge night with very good friends so I had an enjoyable time. Needless to say the recording of the match was immediately deleted.

Had a few messages of extreme woe from my son until he switched it off after about half an hour.

[East Kent Saint]

Ole was saying that they didn’t get decisions as the players didn’t crowd round the Ref ! Man U used to be the worst offenders when it came to intimidating Refs.

[Teddeer]

The VAR decisions and standard of refereeing have been comprehensively covered. To appraise the performance it is very clear, having watched the goals again, that we seem to be adhering to social distancing when defending our penalty area. For most of the goals we had plenty of players in position but if they all decide to mark none of their opponents then chances are goals are going to flow. It makes not a jot of difference whether you have 9 or 29 players on the pitch, if you mark nobody the opposition will fill their boots. Ralph needs to take a long hard look at man marking when the ball is played into our penalty box.

[Nordic Saint]

2 hours ago, kenneth_kenobi said:

But the ManUre guy's boot next to his hand is playing him on!!

So was Maguire's boot. There were two United players' feet clearly playing him onside. When they showed it on TV at the time, it was obvious from the picture that Adams was onside by at least six inches. I just don't understand how the VAR ref couldn't see that. Perhaps he just saw what he wanted to see.

[Turkish]

8 minutes ago, Nordic Saint said:

So was Maguire's boot. There were two United players' feet clearly playing him onside. When they showed it on TV at the time, it was obvious from the picture that Adams was onside by at least six inches. I just don't understand how the VAR ref couldn't see that. Perhaps he just saw what he wanted to see.

Sadly this is probably true. Even from the frame they used for lines there are at least two players playing him onside, how they can look at that and conclude he was offside in ridiculous. Wasn't the argument on saturday that Ings armband played him offside, so how can Adams he offside by finger tips?

[Tamesaint]

 You heard it here first:

We'll beat United at Wembley in May. 😁😁

[Mr X]

 

Looks like we want a change of officials

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/southampton-aston-villa-manchester-united-19759039

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

7 hours ago, egg said:

I hope you lose. No fan should bet on his team to be relegated.

In the unlikely event I were to win a grand it would at least soften the blow a little. 
I won over £700 last night. I had a feeling Utd would score at least 4, so that came in. I then put a bet on at half time for Utd to score more in the second half than they had in the first. All I'm doing is having a bet on a game of football. It doesn't change my support for the club. It's just a way of making a few quid and it's easy money given our current form.

[Chez]

3 minutes ago, Mr X said:

 

Looks like we want a change of officials

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/southampton-aston-villa-manchester-united-19759039

if they deny that request, which I guess they will, there will be a lot more attention on their decisions when they net officiate our games.  I actually thought the nightmare against Villa might help, as subconsciously they might even up the score, but I couldn't be more wrong. The idea that Mike Dean will even up the score next time also is doubtful.

[Nordic Saint]

Just now, Turkish said:

Sadly this is probably true. Even from the frame they used for lines there are at least two players playing him onside, how they can look at that and conclude he was offside in ridiculous. Wasn't the argument on saturday that Ings armband played him offside, so how can Adams he offside by finger tips?

It seems to be deeply ingrained in most Premier League officials to always err in favour of the big teams. But, in the case of Mike Dean his bias in favour of certain teams seems to be at its most extreme. He has his favourites, Man United and Spurs, and teams he doesn't like, Saints and Arsenal, and his decisions will always reflect that. Last night, Mike Dean awarded his 19th penalty to Man United. 

[BallBoy]

The morning after the night before. Just horrible.

I gave up on this at half time. I have never done that before in my life. I knew I just would not be able to endure, let alone enjoy, the rest of the game. After 54 years of supporting Saints nobody can accuse me of being a fair weather supporter but yesterday I hit my limit. I went downstairs and watched "The Drowning". Very appropriate.

As it happens Che scored just after half time. And he DID score. It wouldn't  have changed the result but it could have changed how we feel and avoided this humiliation. The players must have felt totally helpless at that point but the reality is that we have a mental fragility that is always lurking under the surface. We could and should have defended better even with 10 men.

Much has been made of the appalling refereeing and the flaws in the interpretation of the laws of the game. I totally concur. Inept is one word. Corrupt would be another. Probably somewhere between the two. How these people can actually study the same pictures and then still come to the these conclusions is beyond belief. How can it happen two games in a row. We seriously need a change of luck soon to help these players believe again.

I do worry that our game is so high intensity that we seem to have no plan B. We play right on the edge so any reversal is dangerous. But I accept that this is the only way we can play and get the positive results we had earlier in the season. I still support Ralph 100%. He is one of the best we have ever had.

Still hurting. 

[Chez]

Just now, Nordic Saint said:

 Last night, Mike Dean awarded his 19th penalty to Man United. 

Sounds a lot. In how any games?

To be fair, they attack a lot and have pacey tricky players that get in the box...plus one or two that know how to make the most of opportunities. The more you are in the box the more chance you have of getting pens. 19 sounds a lot though.

[Jimmy_D]

3 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

An inexcusable disgrace. Mr Semmens has some very serious decisions to make this week. The club are in a mess under his watch.

Eight PL games without a win, four defeats in a row and now this humiliation. Most managers would have been ousted long ago. Best to call time on Ralph Hasenhüttl who all too often has flattered to deceive.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54743358

https://twitter.com/premierleague/status/1347458540429053962

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55463017

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55766734

I get that we've got an injury crisis and aren't in the best form, and this result is obviously going to take some time to get past, but you're way off with that take.

[Totton Saint]

1 hour ago, JRM said:

Exactly the same as me, I watched it a few times and just could not understand how that goal was disallowed,  final straw. BT commentators seemed happy with the decision (unlikely the penalty which Savage would not shut up about) 

Offside decisions like that must be switching more and more people off. Sad times, spontaneous goal celebrations a thing of the past. Wait for VAR review first. 

How could the ref/VAR be so unashame.ably say ADAM was off side such blatent sticking up two fingers to all and sundry. How do they think this conning us can carry on without a backlash 

[Totton Saint]

The Swiss bloke with the red card should have his contract cancelled

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Nordic Saint said:

It seems to be deeply ingrained in most Premier League officials to always err in favour of the big teams. But, in the case of Mike Dean his bias in favour of certain teams seems to be at its most extreme. He has his favourites, Man United and Spurs, and teams he doesn't like, Saints and Arsenal, and his decisions will always reflect that. Last night, Mike Dean awarded his 19th penalty to Man United. 

Does the 19 include the foul on Cavani that was overruled?

[Tamesaint]

Are there any comparable stastics for other referees/ teams?

[Whitey Grandad]

6 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

Are there any comparable stastics for other referees/ teams?

https://www.90min.com/posts/the-number-penalties-won-each-premier-league-club-2020
 

 

[trousers]

4 hours ago, nta786 said:

Yep and the stills above don’t even show how the incorrect frame was being used as the ball is blurred as to when it left the free kick takers feet.

My fear is it gets brushed over because we were losing ‘4-0’ anyway but that’s not the principle and it definitely had an effect on us mentally.

I hope this game is a watershed for the way VAR is used or something because it has definitely made the headlines.

The quote from Steve Coppell and for any of the butterfly theorists come to mind after Pool destroyed Palace “the first was offside and the second was a foul, and if they hadn’t got those then they wouldn’t have got the other seven!”

Each moment in isolation has huge implications

Indeed, if it goes to 4-1 then we enter an alternate reality (#BTTF). We'd have still lost but our heads would've been up rather than down

[trousers]

5 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

An inexcusable disgrace. Mr Semmens has some very serious decisions to make this week. The club are in a mess under his watch.

Eight PL games without a win, four defeats in a row and now this humiliation. Most managers would have been ousted long ago. Best to call time on Ralph Hasenhüttl who all too often has flattered to deceive.

Ok, I'll give you the arousal you crave by biting...

Can I ask why you didn't post this a couple of months ago?

[Sarnia Cherie]

Dermot Gallagher has said on Ref Watch that although the first red card for Jankowitch was correct Dean's other decisions were wrong. Adam's goal should have stood. VAR kept moving the lines, I suppose until they found a shot where Adams was offside so their verdict is justified and the 2nd red for Bednarek was wrong as Martial was already falling (diving) and it is Martial's leg that touches Bednareks. If a referee consistently makes errors like this he should be kicked out. If I kept making mistakes in my job I would be shown the door. 

[kenneth_kenobi]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12207425/ref-watch-david-luiz-was-right-to-be-sent-off-but-mike-dean-got-it-wrong-at-old-trafford-says-dermot-gallagher

[Tamesaint]

11 minutes ago, trousers said:

Ok, I'll give you the arousal you crave by biting...

Can I ask why you didn't post this a couple of months ago?

Because now he is back supporting his first love Arsenal.  A couple of months ago when we were doing so much better than them , he was a Saints fan.

[kenneth_kenobi]

And Gallagher says Dean was wrong as VAR last week too
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/12206382/ref-watch-southampton-should-have-been-awarded-a-penalty-against-aston-villa-says-dermot-gallagher

[Micky]

Dumb and dumber having a field day ripping us to shreds on TalkSport drive right now.  Giving Ralphs pelters....

[trousers]

Everything looked ok a fraction of a second before the tackle... just looks like two players going for a loose ball in this freeze-frame...

(I'm not attempting to excuse a bad tackle here, just highlighting that there may be a relatively fine line between a good tackle and a mis-timed one, especially when you're 19 and pumped to the brim with a heady mix of adrenaline, fear and excitement)

Edited 3 February, 2021 by trousers

[trousers]

25 minutes ago, Micky said:

Dumb and dumber having a field day ripping us to shreds on TalkSport drive right now.  Giving Ralphs pelters....

One assumes they did exactly the same after Leicester and before our ensuing excellent 12 month run...? 

[gurru991]

The sportscasters all love Man U & yes they do receive preferential treatment across the board.  They are the spoilt, little rich kid who gets everything he asks for.

[positivepete]

8 hours ago, Shroppie said:

In the cold light of day, I’ll attempt some rational answers.

Do I blame Ralph? Emphatically no. He might have tweaked the team a bit but basically he put out the best he could. Two Academy players given their big chance. Ramsey made a decent go of it. More on Jankewitz to follow.

Some will blame the owners and lack of investment. Is that realistic? In the current situation there's no money anywhere. Yes, I'd have liked two quality FBs. But with Bertrand and KWP firm first choices we struggled to get loans in as they'd want game time, which we can't guarantee. Buying players to challenge at FB was never happening.

Then who was to blame? I’m putting Jankewitz top of the list. He’s a professional football player who acted in a reckless way and destroyed the team’s confidence and the game plan in one moment. You could see the shock on other players’ faces and he got little sympathy leaving.

Tactics? No. I’m sure Ralph planned to play our usual pressing game, take the game to MU, push our wing backs up and keep theirs pinned back. He never got a chance. We hadn’t even settled into the game when Jankewitz blew it. A key part of our play is the central ball out to the DMs who can then bring the others in. Once a man short there, we couldn’t get out. And we rely on the DMs pressing, harrying and winning balls in midfield. JWP couldn’t do that alone, so Armstrong, Djenepo, Ings and Adams all found themselves forced back. It then became backs to the wall with a lot of chasing of a team with all the time to be patient and make us run. And we were tired. No chance of rotation just 72 hours after the last game. United made four changes with ridiculous quality left in the bench.

I’m not going to analyse every player as I thought the ones left on the pitch worked hard, but with belief totally shot. There was plenty of frustrated anger too.

Officials? Dean was absolutely disgraceful. Jankewitz deserved red. No argument. But he gave a string of one-sided decisions on fouls. He gave a pen for a foul outside the box which VAR did, amazingly, correct (much to Savage’s anger) I don’t think I’m imagining it when I say he was almost deferential to the MU players whilst being to opposite to us. The Che offside goal was nowhere near offside and only VAR can be blamed for that. What were they looking at? The end of Che’s long-sleeved shirt? No idea. That would have made a difference, not to the final result, but to lifting spirits. I’m sure that at 1-4 we wouldn’t have gone on to concede 9. Then Martial seemed very close to offside for his goal and we didn’t even pause for a check. No careful manipulation of lines for him.

But the key incident that turned the game from a bad defeat to a disaster was obviously the Bednarek penalty. Dean couldn’t wait to give it, VAR was too weak to overturn it, although of course we still have the “clear and obvious error” which I assume swayed them. This interpretation is so subjective: depending on the team involved, VAR can search for ages for something to call clear and obvious, or quickly sweep it aside. Often there’s a refs union that thinks it’s good to back each other up. I’m sure if Dean hadn’t given it, VAR would have quickly agreed. And we don’t know what was said when he was called to the screen, which only seemed to show one freeze frame. Was it “Don’t think that’s a foul - take a look” or “if you give that maybe you have to send him off” Either way, once VAR failed to do its job and bottled it, there’s no way the arrogant twat objectively reviews it. And delights in flourishing the red. That finished us off: without that it’s 6-0. Not good, but I’d have taken it.

This rule about not attempting to play the ball is a perfect example if how Laws are being tweaked (offside and handball are others, but life is too short) without careful consideration of the exact wording to avoid vagueness and misinterpretation. There needs to be a clear inclusion of there being INTENT to foul the player without trying to get the ball. Bednarek’s contact (if at all) was after Martial started falling, he was trying to pull out and there was absolutely no intent to commit a cynical foul to stop a goal.

Ralph has picked the team up before and he’ll do it again. I hope I never see Jankewitz again.

Rant over. Blue line. Move on.

Spot on, Shroppie.

it’s been a while since we have had a match thread this long.  It is what it is.  We are not a bad side and we will recover.  

Well done to all those punters who put a bet on Dean awarding a penalty.  Seeing the odds, I would imagine a few of you regular punters came out ahead last night,

 

 

[The Cat]

8 hours ago, Saints foreva said:

Obviously losing but there are no excuses for losing 9-0 again. Its an embarrassment and we are the laughing stock of English football once again. 

I'm not really bothered what other people think. Who cares? We lost, 1-0, 5-0, 9-0, 36-0. All equate to the same thing. 

After the Leicester game it wasn't long until we became one of the most consistent teams in the league and went on a great run. No reason why we won't bounce back again. 

[Shroppie]

49 minutes ago, positivepete said:

Well done to all those punters who put a bet on Dean awarding a penalty.  Seeing the odds, I would imagine a few of you regular punters came out ahead last night,

He had to work at it as his first effort was actually moved outside the box. Probably why VAR was reluctant to overrule a second time.

Anyone else notice that he stopped a very good advantage to award the first one?

[Dark Munster]

8 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

An inexcusable disgrace. Mr Semmens has some very serious decisions to make this week. The club are in a mess under his watch.

Eight PL games without a win, four defeats in a row and now this humiliation. Most managers would have been ousted long ago. Best to call time on Ralph Hasenhüttl who all too often has flattered to deceive.

Thanks Charlie, I needed a good laugh this morning.

I was thinking that this would a great time for the board to offer to extend Ralph's contract by 2 more years.

[Toadhall Saint]

38 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

Thanks Charlie, I needed a good laugh this morning.

I was thinking that this would a great time for the board to offer to extend Ralph's contract by 2 more years.

Charlie is always good for a laugh 

[verlaine1979]

Does anyone have a plausible explanation for why Che's goal was given offside? Usually there's someone with an alternative view on how the lines are meant to be interpreted, but so far I've not heard anyone even try to explain how Adams was off, given that all the parts of his body that could legally play the ball looked to be a good 6 inches behind the feet and knees of at least two United players.

Edited 3 February, 2021 by verlaine1979

[Jonnyboy]

8 hours ago, Le Timmier said:

We had two actual substandard wingbacks who were sent on loan as they aren't good enough. You can't seriously be suggesting that if Valery had played instead of Ramsey it would have made a significance difference?

If it hadn't been for the "Mike Dean Show" in the last few minutes the match may well have ended 6-0, probably a fair reflection of the evenings events following the GBH committed in the 2nd minute. 

All these things add up to keep the score down. For all we know, with Valery and Vokins (and no Mike Dean) we lose 5-2. A huge amount better than 9-0 obviously. 

[Sunglasses Ron]

Can I check something. Was Dean originally encouraged to view the monitor to overturn his penalty decision and book the guy for diving?

[Turkish]

45 minutes ago, verlaine1979 said:

Does anyone have a plausible explanation for why Che's goal was given offside? Usually there's someone with an alternative view on how the lines are meant to be interpreted, but so far I've not heard anyone even try to explain how Adams was off, given that all the parts of his body that could legally play the ball looked to be a good 6 inches behind the feet and knees of at least two United players.

Not seen a single person claim either Adams was offside or Bednarek fouled Martial. Plenty saying it was shambolic officiating though.

[Shroppie]

7 minutes ago, Sunglasses Ron said:

Can I check something. Was Dean originally encouraged to view the monitor to overturn his penalty decision and book the guy for diving?

Don't think we know. It was either that or to decide if a red was warranted.

[Whitey Grandad]

22 minutes ago, Sunglasses Ron said:

Can I check something. Was Dean originally encouraged to view the monitor to overturn his penalty decision and book the guy for diving?

According to the Sun it was only to decide the colour of the card.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/13935592/man-utd-southampton-var-mike-dean/

[wadesmith]

We can waffle about sleeves, stuck monitors, ‘falling out of love with the game’ (rarely gets said when we win btw),red card betting syndicates, dodgy refs.....but it’s all irrelevant..we were shit.

[verlaine1979]

What was strangest to see was that we were defending a lot of the time with the cliched 'two banks of four' - but we were completely static in the formation. United just passed and ran through us at will while we kept to our allotted positions. I'm assuming that's not how that tactic is meant to work...