Academy rejects ?

[david in sweden]

The headline may sound a tad unfair, but for every Academy lad  who eventually gets Prem. game time, there are 

a dozen others - who come and go - and either end up playing lower league football, or find another profession.

Of course, many times it's not down to the player's lack of ability, but because they are understudying a first team regular

and rarely get a look-in. More recent cases are the likes of Reed and Targett along with Alfie Jones and Christoph Klarer.

and recent stories suggest that Josh Sims maybe on his way out, which is a shame for a player who has a lot to offer. 

So it's nice to see that not all is lost as when Championship bottom club Wycombe put 4 goals past mid-table Preston in their 

FA Cup 3rd round tie, and with 3 ex-Academy lads on the pitch. Jason McCarthy, Ryan Tafazoli and Dominic Gape all 

went through the Saints Academy and even showed up a bit in the U23 side, before finally being let go,

Starting over in L1/L2  is a long haul, but there are some players who are " late-developers ", and it's good to see that they can 

make a career in football - even if it's not at Prem. level. 

[egg]

Good post. I don't necessarily agree though that some players don't make it because a lack of ability as such. Cream usually rises to the top, and if a lad doesn't make it here but is good enough to be at the top level, he'll work his way through the leagues. Those with the ability that don't work their way back up normally fail for other reasons, lifestyle, attitude, life choices, etc. Indeed, I was reading today about Ravel Morrison (not a Saints lad but the point applies) being released from yet another club at 27 years of age. He's had opportunity galore to meet his potential - Alex Ferguson described him as the most talented kid he'd ever seen - but he got on the way of his career, not opportunity.

Take on of our own, Nile  Ranger. Didn't make it here because of his attitude, had another chance at Newcastle and repeat. 

I saw McCarthy, Tafazoli, Gape all play whilst here. Good players, but their progress was stalled not by their paths being blocked, but by not being quite good enough for our level. 

Sims is an interesting one. He's always had something and I don't think we've helped him by holding on for so long. How he'd have developed by getting more first team footy elsewhere I don't know, and gut feel he'd have done a Targett / Reed if he'd had a chance to play games. Ultimately though, I don't believe his development here was blocked by others, but rather that management saw someone good but not quite good enough. 

Compare Sims with Klarer. He's getting games now at a good level, but he was never going to be getting first team footy here so, unlike Sims, we've done the right thing by him and let him go. 

 

Edited 10 January, 2021 by egg

[Weston Saint]

I can think of an old one who was born in Southampton, Graham Roberts.

Joined Saints as an associate schoolboy but released as not making the grade. Went to non league football after a spell with Portsmouth.  Ended up playing a pivotal role for Tottenham, Rangers and Chelsea and 6 caps for England.

Just one of many players released at schoolboy/academy level who went on to be top class players. Same with other clubs though, not unique to Saints.   

[Wrensup]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Take on of our own, Kenwyne Jones. Didn't make it here because of his attitude, had another chance at Newcastle and repeat. 

I’m a little confused? 

[egg]

11 minutes ago, Wrensup said:

I’m a little confused? 

Lack of sleep - Nile Ranger!

[VectisSaint]

20 minutes ago, egg said:

Lack of sleep - Nile Ranger!

Nile Ranger is hardly an example, he's not one of our own for a start, he was only in our Academy for about 12 months, several weeks of which he spent in a young offenders institution for nefarious activities in which he took part before he joined. He was previously at Crystal Palace. Played over 50 times for Newcastle.

Other players "rejected" by Saints in our Academy include Dennis Wise, Kevin Phillips, Tyrone Mings and indeed our own Danny Ings, all of whom seemed to have or are having decent careers following their rejection.

Should we also class Harrison Reed or Matt Target as rejects? Both playing regularly in the Premier League, and both earned us decent transfer money.

But David's point is a good one, a large proportion of (at least our older) Academy players go on to have a decent career in professional football, albeit not at the same level as they might have hoped. I think the Academy system really doesn't work the way it is intended, most of these guys would have played regular football at a lower level "in the good old days", the Academy system holds back all but the very best kids because it is so difficult to break into senior football, especially at the PL or Championship level. Personally I would scrap Academies, they do not work as intended for the vast majority of youngsters, but I don't know what the real answer is.

Edited 10 January, 2021 by VectisSaint

[Saint_clark]

Even league one and league two players earn far above what most people earn so it's still a hell of a career for them.

[Medrurkin]

Most academies have a high rate of lads who never get near regular first team experience. The PL have the pick of the best talent from all of the UK leagues, as well as the majority of European ones. The advantage of an academy is that the cost is very low to the cost of buying average players in the market, who even then may not come up to scratch. So selling one or two every year, with one making the first team regularly is a good investment, even if many are simply released and find their own way after that. 

[S-Clarke]

I don't think Targett is a reject, he would still be here had it not been for the insane fee Villa offered us. He's developed well there too.

I think we will see the likes of Sims, Hesketh etc go down into the lower leagues - and to be fair to them I fully expect them to have a very fulfilling career at the lower levels too.

There's been a weird bit in the news about us recently (from the Burnley chairman, makes me wonder what else has triggered his criticism) but I think in the main our approach is a fair one. For instance we now do not loan out anyone if they have a future here, they are trained and developed in the way the first team players. Sure, there will still be ones that fall by the wayside but we will have a much more fulfilling batch of players who are suited to our club imo.

Good to see you posting again by the way David - feels like a while since I've seen a post from you!

[Green]

There's always an assumption that player X would have made it if he'd stayed at the club but for some players being released is the catalyst they need to make them become the player they are. 

[Give it to Ron]

5 hours ago, Weston Saint said:

I can think of an old one who was born in Southampton, Graham Roberts.

Joined Saints as an associate schoolboy but released as not making the grade. Went to non league football after a spell with Portsmouth.  Ended up playing a pivotal role for Tottenham, Rangers and Chelsea and 6 caps for England.

Just one of many players released at schoolboy/academy level who went on to be top class players. Same with other clubs though, not unique to Saints.   

I played against him at school I still have the bruises! 

[HarvSFC]

Ben White at Brighton seems to be forging a good career now after being released by us and a few loans in the lower leagues. Although, he doesn’t seem to have cemented a position as of yet. 

[Badger]

3 hours ago, Give it to Ron said:

I played against him at school I still have the bruises! 

I was once told that the club knew of him and his potential but there was a feeling he would bring some disciplinary problems on and off the pitch so they gave it a miss. 

No idea if true, and can’t recall the persons claim to being itk (this was nearly three decades before “itk” status was thought of). 

 

 

 

[Turkish]

12 hours ago, egg said:

Good post. I don't necessarily agree though that some players don't make it because a lack of ability as such. Cream usually rises to the top, and if a lad doesn't make it here but is good enough to be at the top level, he'll work his way through the leagues. Those with the ability that don't work their way back up normally fail for other reasons, lifestyle, attitude, life choices, etc. Indeed, I was reading today about Ravel Morrison (not a Saints lad but the point applies) being released from yet another club at 27 years of age. He's had opportunity galore to meet his potential - Alex Ferguson described him as the most talented kid he'd ever seen - but he got on the way of his career, not opportunity.

Take on of our own, Nile  Ranger. Didn't make it here because of his attitude, had another chance at Newcastle and repeat. 

I saw McCarthy, Tafazoli, Gape all play whilst here. Good players, but their progress was stalled not by their paths being blocked, but by not being quite good enough for our level. 

Sims is an interesting one. He's always had something and I don't think we've helped him by holding on for so long. How he'd have developed by getting more first team footy elsewhere I don't know, and gut feel he'd have done a Targett / Reed if he'd had a chance to play games. Ultimately though, I don't believe his development here was blocked by others, but rather that management saw someone good but not quite good enough. 

Compare Sims with Klarer. He's getting games now at a good level, but he was never going to be getting first team footy here so, unlike Sims, we've done the right thing by him and let him go. 

 

I read today Ravel Morrison has just had his contract terminated by Den Haag, only 27 and 12 clubs already, never played 30 games for a team. What a waste 

[Charlie Wayman]

Most of our Academy success stories featured players who became most famous after they moved away; Shearer, Bridge, Shaw, Bale, Walcott, Lallana (?)

I suppose we should include JWP in that list of illustrious names, one of the few who has stayed here to improve our team rather than our bank balance..

[John Boy Saint]

10 hours ago, Turkish said:

I read today Ravel Morrison has just had his contract terminated by Den Haag, only 27 and 12 clubs already, never played 30 games for a team. What a waste 

The shame of it for him was Ferguson for a reputedly hard bastard as a boss, gave him so much rope because he could see this lad was the real deal with the ability to develop into a footballing superstar. Despite having the footballing world potentially at his feet and the immense riches that went with it, allegedly he couldn't help himself still hanging out with his spawny mates getting up to all sorts of naughty stuff, as an aside to the stuff with his girlfriend that did make the press.  

 

[Noodles34]

44 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Most of our Academy success stories featured players who became most famous after they moved away; Shearer, Bridge, Shaw, Bale, Walcott, Lallana (?)

I suppose we should include JWP in that list of illustrious names, one of the few who has stayed here to improve our team rather than our bank balance..

cause no one has really come in for him I guess, which may change now. Don't think he was doing us a favour.

 

[Noodles34]

10 hours ago, Turkish said:

I read today Ravel Morrison has just had his contract terminated by Den Haag, only 27 and 12 clubs already, never played 30 games for a team. What a waste 

Lucky Sir Les has gone, otherwise he could have been on the same radar that bought in Boufal, Forren, Lemina, Hoedt and of course Carrilo.

[Toussaint]

I remember reading / seeing a feature on Brentford's academy, it was said that an academy only exists to bring through the one or 2 players they have hopes for. So not making the grade initially is to be expected.

[Turkish]

14 minutes ago, Noodles34 said:

Lucky Sir Les has gone, otherwise he could have been on the same radar that bought in Boufal, Forren, Lemina, Hoedt and of course Carrilo.

he is surely the perfect Les #moneyball player

[Hayling Saint]

14 hours ago, Badger said:

I was once told that the club knew of him and his potential but there was a feeling he would bring some disciplinary problems on and off the pitch so they gave it a miss. 

No idea if true, and can’t recall the persons claim to being itk (this was nearly three decades before “itk” status was thought of). 

 

 

 

I signed schoolboy forms at the same time as Graham Roberts, also Steve Foster (Brighton), Graham Sharpe & Steve Neville. Two of us did ok (Not me)!

[Jeremy Corbyn]

53 minutes ago, Turkish said:

he is surely the perfect Les #moneyball player

Chris Wilder has attempted to overtake that mantle with the signings of Morrison, Burke and Rodwell in the last year or so.  Hope it's going well for them!

[Lets B Avenue]

3 hours ago, Hayling Saint said:

I signed schoolboy forms at the same time as Graham Roberts, also Steve Foster (Brighton), Graham Sharpe & Steve Neville. Two of us did ok (Not me)!

Graham Sharpe??? Don't you mean Baker?

[Badger]

3 minutes ago, Lets B Avenue said:

Graham Sharpe??? Don't you mean Baker?

I read that and questioned it in my mind, but have a vague recollection of a full back called Sharpe at one point, can't recall it was Graham though, was there a Tim Sharpe ? Not to be confused with Graeme Sharp at Everton.

Didn't realise Steve Foster was ever with us, might go to explain some of the hatred (on top of being skate of course).

 

[Hayling Saint]

36 minutes ago, Badger said:

I read that and questioned it in my mind, but have a vague recollection of a full back called Sharpe at one point, can't recall it was Graham though, was there a Tim Sharpe ? Not to be confused with Graeme Sharp at Everton.

Didn't realise Steve Foster was ever with us, might go to explain some of the hatred (on top of being skate of course).

 

Sorry That should have been John Sharpe (Another Skate, good mates with Steve Foster).

[Badger]

11 minutes ago, Hayling Saint said:

Sorry That should have been John Sharpe (Another Skate, good mates with Steve Foster).

What became of John Sharpe, and was he a full back ?

[Lets B Avenue]

24 minutes ago, Badger said:

What became of John Sharpe, and was he a full back ?

Yes. Occasional right back in our promotion side of 77/78. Then sold to Gillingham where he played for several seasons

[rooney]

4 hours ago, Hayling Saint said:

I signed schoolboy forms at the same time as Graham Roberts, also Steve Foster (Brighton), Graham Sharpe & Steve Neville. Two of us did ok (Not me)!

Steve Neville could never take corners properly when I used to watch him at Exeter.

[Singapore Saint]

I was a big fan of Nathan Dyer's and his dribbling skills and was sorry when he moved to Swansea where he blossomed. Could never understand why he was never called up to play for The Three Lions.

[HarvSFC]

Premier League winner, Nathan Dyer.

[HarvSFC]

On that note, I always thought Andrew Surman would have had a better career than he had. Yeah, he had a career, which saw many appearances/seasons in the Premier League. But, he was never the main man again, after departing us. Maybe it's just my memory of him being more favourable and him also being a part of what was a very average to poor Southampton team.

[Singapore Saint]

4 minutes ago, HarvSFC said:

Premier League winner, Nathan Dyer.

He helped secure 3 precious points when he scored the winner in the 89th minute as Leicester came back to win 3-2 against Aston Villa, having been down 0-2.

[Toussaint]

My career didn’t take off, possibly because I was not very good, but I cannot be certain.

[Badger]

51 minutes ago, Singapore Saint said:

He helped secure 3 precious points when he scored the winner in the 89th minute as Leicester came back to win 3-2 against Aston Villa, having been down 0-2.

His Jonno Quick moment...

[Charlie Wayman]

26 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

My career didn’t take off, possibly because I was not very good, but I cannot be certain.

We all know that feeling. I could never understand how my obvious talent as a defender went almost unnoticed despite many outstanding performances of keeping the goals against in single figures.

[Chez]

I'd argue that academy rejects are those of us that didn't get a professional contract. 

[Charlie Wayman]

7 hours ago, Noodles34 said:

cause no one has really come in for him I guess, which may change now. Don't think he was doing us a favour.

 

That may be a factor but he does seem to have a bit more about him than £ signs. Isn't his Dad a local lawyer or something and didn't we read a few years ago that JWP would fall back on that profession had he not made the grade as a footballer?

The real test of our new appeal might come If Tella or N'Lundulu make the grade, will be interesting to see how long they hang around.

The fact that most of our promising lads end up elsewhere in lower divisions shows that a lack of loyalty is not a one way street, the club is equally as ruthless and mercenary as any young player that has left us.

The idea that one day Saints might field a first XI with 50 or 60% of Academy developed players is just a pipe dream.

[Chez]

1 hour ago, HarvSFC said:

On that note, I always thought Andrew Surman would have had a better career than he had. Yeah, he had a career, which saw many appearances/seasons in the Premier League. But, he was never the main man again, after departing us. Maybe it's just my memory of him being more favourable and him also being a part of what was a very average to poor Southampton team.

Most of his Saints career was spent outside the Prem, so you could say he progressed and fulfilled his potential. He was a very good player (in a shite side), not a great player, yet he still played at the top league which is testament to his dedication and application. The transfer funds we got from his sales was important in our survival as a club. I think possibly we as thanks might owe him a debt of gratitude for making that move. I'd suggest he was another great youth system/academy success.

[Toadhall Saint]

2 minutes ago, Chez said:

Most of his Saints career was spent outside the Prem, so you could say he progressed and fulfilled his potential. He was a very good player (in a shite side), not a great player, yet he still played at the top league which is testament to his dedication and application. The transfer funds we got from his sales was important in our survival as a club. I think possibly we as thanks might owe him a debt of gratitude for making that move. I'd suggest he was another great youth system/academy success.

And I’d agree with you Chez

[Hayling Saint]

26 minutes ago, Chez said:

I'd argue that academy rejects are those of us that didn't get a professional contract. 

Agree with that.

[Chez]

9 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Most of our Academy success stories featured players who became most famous after they moved away; Shearer, Bridge, Shaw, Bale, Walcott, Lallana (?)

I suppose we should include JWP in that list of illustrious names, one of the few who has stayed here to improve our team rather than our bank balance..

LeTiss, Shearer, Bridge, Saw, Bale, Lallana and JWP all got International caps whilst at Saints. I think you might be able to claim that you are `famous' on being capped, but obviously  they gained even greater fame when moving to bigger sides.

Bridge gave us 5 years and Lallana 8 years. Lallana signed a five year contract for us when dropping to the third tier when he could easily have moved to Wolves. We paid him handsomely to do so, but that signing paved the way to our path back to the top flight. He stayed certainly improved the side no matter how sour in ended when he moved to Liverpool.

[Chez]

28 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

The idea that one day Saints might field a first XI with 50 or 60% of Academy developed players is just a pipe dream.

So that would be five out of the starting 11. It happened a lot when we were struggling for money in the championship. 

2013/14 season we had Shaw, Chambers, Lallana and JWP starting most weeks and Gallagher started a few games. Will be very hard to replicate that. 

[Toussaint]

43 minutes ago, Chez said:

I'd argue that academy rejects are those of us that didn't get a professional contract. 

Strong case for changing the name from Saintsweb to Saintsrejectsweb (copyright Toussaint).

[Hayling Saint]

6 hours ago, rooney said:

Steve Neville could never take corners properly when I used to watch him at Exeter.

Was Keith Viney playing left back at that time?

[Noodles34]

11 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

That may be a factor but he does seem to have a bit more about him than £ signs. Isn't his Dad a local lawyer or something and didn't we read a few years ago that JWP would fall back on that profession had he not made the grade as a footballer?

The real test of our new appeal might come If Tella or N'Lundulu make the grade, will be interesting to see how long they hang around.

The fact that most of our promising lads end up elsewhere in lower divisions shows that a lack of loyalty is not a one way street, the club is equally as ruthless and mercenary as any young player that has left us.

The idea that one day Saints might field a first XI with 50 or 60% of Academy developed players is just a pipe dream.

I think he has a bit more about him because he is clearly more intelligent than the average footballer. So I guess that subconsciously makes us think that he would think about a move for career purposes rather than the money. But I don’t think there is evidence to support that. 
his dad is a lawyer, maybe even a QC in Portsmouth by the way and JWP used to go to FP occasionally, not an avid supporter but one all the same. 
im not sure what makes people like us believe that players have good intentions about playing football. We all go to work for a wage and of course it is much better if we enjoy the day to day existence in the workplace. But even if we did and let’s put it in our terms, say you work for an insurance firm in Southampton and your on 55K a year. Not bad.  You are well thought of, everyone likes you there, Carol gives you a sneaky hand job every Friday and Jonno buys you lunch on a Wednesday. The firm is doing well and you can afford a decent mortgage and drive a nice M3. Then you get offered a job in a London, 90K a year plus other perks (Dianne is offering a blowie every Friday 😂) but you get to go around all of this firms offices in Europe every two or three weeks, Geneva, Munich, Paris, Madrid etc. You’d be staying in great hotels, flying business and you can drive an Aston Martin. 
What you going to do? Stay in Southampton ? Really? 

[goodymatt]

Depends if Carol looks like Shakira...

Edited 12 January, 2021 by goodymatt

[waylander]

That sort of business travel gets to be a pain after a while

[david in sweden]

On 10/01/2021 at 16:29, S-Clarke said:

I don't think Targett is a reject, he would still be here had it not been for the insane fee Villa offered us. He's developed well there too.

I think we will see the likes of Sims, Hesketh etc go down into the lower leagues - and to be fair to them I fully expect them to have a very fulfilling career at the lower levels too.

There's been a weird bit in the news about us recently (from the Burnley chairman, makes me wonder what else has triggered his criticism) but I think in the main our approach is a fair one. For instance we now do not loan out anyone if they have a future here, they are trained and developed in the way the first team players. Sure, there will still be ones that fall by the wayside but we will have a much more fulfilling batch of players who are suited to our club imo.

Good to see you posting again by the way David - feels like a while since I've seen a post from you!

Yes he has been along while Clarkey.

After quite a while.....I got a bit miffed with some contributors who tried to destroy every decent post and found myself another site where people seemed

a tad more tolerant to other viewpoints.  I haven't deserted this site, but sadly it still seems to be dominated by a handful of  ******. 

[Barsiem]

6 minutes ago, david in sweden said:

dominated by a handful of  ******. 

I swear this should be the strap line for this forum...

[david in sweden]

On 11/01/2021 at 20:09, Chez said:

I'd argue that academy rejects are those of us that didn't get a professional contract. 

Good point Chez. There is a long list of those who looked like Ronaldo at age 16, but never graduated to the first team.

The problem is not just "looking good" in the  B team / U23'. but the huge gap between that level and the Prem. is similar to

that experienced by clubs who move up from the Championship and totally fail to establish themselves at the higher level.