Has the Saints academy been destroyed?

[Chez]

New Burnley chairman Alan Pace seems to think so: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9107001/They-big-ambitions-transforming-club-ALK-Capital-bought-Burnley.html

Not sure why he choose to pick us out, or by what measure he has used to come to that conclusion. I guess its been a while since a superstar has emerged from our youth system. Not sure `destroyed' is fair. Underperformed? Failed to match the five years previous, perhaps. Any thoughts? 

[Barsiem]

Sheesh doesn’t look good for Burnley if their new owners come up with tripe like that...  makes them sound very uninformed, albeit as you say op we’re not getting the talent through we were in the last few years

[Hodgey]

Combination of changes in manager / style, poor coaching and poor strategy. I think the last lot genuinely believed their own hype in our academy when it was clear that standards had dropped. Think they are addressing now but yes, 5 years of underperformance where we have basically produced nothing for Ralph to work with (and he clearly wants to). Lowest point being when we were sending out 20-21 year olds to non-league (and renewing their contracts) a horrible but accurate indication of the quality on offer. Hopefully in 2-3 years time the production line will be up and running again but it’s not exactly helped our cause in terms of squad - lots of youth players now around the squad who are way short of the level required.

[woodsaint1]

Destroyed is a bit much, but Matt Crocker is his interview did mention that the academy had moved away from the previous model and was now in the process of being fixed. So not far wrong in their assessment

[SaintsLoyal]

Clearly not, when you look at all academys in the premier league no clubs have regular players worthy of first team inclusion.

Certainly Burnley will struggle due to location and i imagine City and United would take any players in that area.

[Chez]

increasingly hard to attract the best young talent when faced with the likes of Chelsea spread their academy wings so far outside London.

[John Boy Saint]

Just now, Chez said:

increasingly hard to attract the best young talent when faced with the likes of Chelsea spread their academy wings so far outside London.

I thought our category one status gave us carte blanche to pilfer nippers from wherever we wanted just like Chelsea.

[Chez]

28 minutes ago, John Boy Saint said:

I thought our category one status gave us carte blanche to pilfer nippers from wherever we wanted just like Chelsea.

not sure we have the satellite operations like Chelsea does to be able to exploit that to its full. I might be wrong. 

[Convict Colony]

I think our academy is now pivoting to optimising the B team, so whilst we will always progress kids from the age groups we find it would not surprise me if we see a big influx of 16/17yr olds from big london clubs elsewhere who don't see the pathway to the 1st team and believe they have an opportunity to both learn the style in the B team and have a manager that will play them if they are good enough or ready.

[Saint Garrett]

Reads to me a bit of jealousy...maybe he was one of the “Americans” interested in buying us, and didn’t see eye to eye with the owner. 
 

Seems to be more of a dig at Gao than anything else.

[Chez]

Chelsea paid Rangers an initial £500,000 for a 16 year old Billy Gilmore. That is what we are up against. 

[Matthew Le God]

3 minutes ago, Chez said:

Chelsea paid Rangers an initial £500,000 for a 16 year old Billy Gilmore. That is what we are up against. 

Saints have paid large fees for academy teenagers as well.

[alehouseboys]

20 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

Reads to me a bit of jealousy...maybe he was one of the “Americans” interested in buying us, and didn’t see eye to eye with the owner. 
 

Seems to be more of a dig at Gao than anything else.

That conclusion did cross my mind having just read it...

[Chez]

51 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Saints have paid large fees for academy teenagers as well.

You're right, £300k for Ramello Mitchell wasn't it and £400k on Jeremi Rodriguez last year? Did we spend big money on Diamond Edwards the year before that too? These are serious investments. Very excited to see how they and others pan out over the next three years.

Edited 3 January, 2021 by Chez

[positivepete]

One of the key points in that article is the discussion on related (feeder) clubs in Europe.   The new FA rules for work permits mean that signing players under 18 is not allowed, and signing players from small teams in overseas lower leagues, or from teams facing relegation in the higher divisions will be difficult as they will not get the required points.

A number of clubs are now looking at European clubs to park players at that they find through good scouting.

however, the post above regarding Croker’s comments shows that at least we recognised the issue of the academy.

[John Boy Saint]

3 hours ago, Chez said:

Chelsea paid Rangers an initial £500,000 for a 16 year old Billy Gilmore. That is what we are up against. 

Will Ferry was £60k from Bury rising to £100k if memory serves me right.

 

as an aside I often wonder what happened to that lad at Stoke who Liverpool offered the world to including Private education at a good school - Liverpool stuffed him on his parents greed and crafty paperwork - Stoke were not happy and when Liverpool pulled the rug from under him and his family - Stoke held his papers and pretty much used him as an example to other parents with greedy ideas.

 

[gsweet87]

13 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

Reads to me a bit of jealousy...maybe he was one of the “Americans” interested in buying us, and didn’t see eye to eye with the owner. 
 

Seems to be more of a dig at Gao than anything else.

That's what I took from it as well. Would love to see some evidence of the academy being "Destroyed".

[Daft Kerplunk]

Not destroyed as it is still operating but it is nowhere near as good as it was. From what I understand, the rot started with Les who took credit for what had gone before but started getting rid of coaches who didn’t believe he or Martin Hunter were the best thing since sliced bread. Les was great at creating a story about how good he was and with a board made up of people who were/are pretty clueless about football, that made him  untouchable for awhile. They also didn’t like kids who were talented and full of potential but were rough around the edges, and it still doesn’t look like we recruit from the city’s tougher areas that much anymore.  As someone has pointed out though, Chelsea do get to kids and families through very generous offers so that does make it harder but if you’ve got the best set-up with great coaches, parents will at least need to turn that down and go for the money instead. 
 

The decline has continued with the appointment and promotion of sub-standard coaches, turning down the opportunity to employ good ex-players to join the coaching staff because they aren’t Matt Hale’s mates, poor recruitment at the younger ages and giving more attention to the academy satellite at Bath and the West Country than here in Southampton and the South. People don’t sarcastically call the academy Bathampton for nothing.
 

Hopefully Matt Crocker will be able to get to make changes but he will be up against some skilful internal politicians adept at keeping their jobs and power.
 

The academy will be back to its best when the kids we sign at 8-12 start making the first team, not the kids we sign at 16 or older who’ve really been developed as players at another academy in the UK or Europe.

[Dusic]

40 minutes ago, gsweet87 said:

That's what I took from it as well. Would love to see some evidence of the academy being "Destroyed".

Well, "destroyed" is a strong word, but:

- No regular Academy starters in the first team apart from players who went through it 10 or 15 years ago

- No regular England youth Intls in across U16-23 (we regularly had 5-10 in the past)

- U18s and U23s always struggling in the league table

- No decent fees brought in for players who don't quite make it with Saints (Reed discounted as was an Academy player about 8yrs ago).

[tajjuk]

Sometimes talent just doesn't come through but I am not getting the 'destroyed' comment he made, as far as I can see we have still been investing in the academy and have recently changed the personnel. 

Plenty of academy players though have been in and around the first team squad since Ralph took over. 

Seems a fairly ignorant comment to me, seems like he's picked up the 'bad owner' myth about Gao and just run with it to try and paint himself and the new owners of Burnley in a better light, pure PR. 

Edited 4 January, 2021 by tajjuk

[Chez]

I've probably missed lots, but just as a guide:

Born (school year)
1992/93 Oxlaide-Chamberlain, Isgrove, (let Mings go)

1993/4 Cropper, Stephens (bought for £150k aged 17)

1994/5 Ward Prowse, Gape, Shaw, Chambers, Reed, McQueen

1995/96 Gallagher, Targett, Hesketh, Flannigan, Seager, McCarthy

1996/97 Jones, Sims,  Lewis

1997/98 Olomola, (let Ben White go) 

1998/99 Valery, Slattery, Maddox, Tela, N'Lundulu, Johnson

1999/00 Vokins, Ferry, Obafemi, Smallbone,

2000/01 Ramsey

 

Edited 4 January, 2021 by Chez

[Medrurkin]

4 hours ago, Daft Kerplunk said:

Not destroyed as it is still operating but it is nowhere near as good as it was. From what I understand, the rot started with Les who took credit for what had gone before but started getting rid of coaches who didn’t believe he or Martin Hunter were the best thing since sliced bread. Les was great at creating a story about how good he was and with a board made up of people who were/are pretty clueless about football, that made him  untouchable for awhile. They also didn’t like kids who were talented and full of potential but were rough around the edges, and it still doesn’t look like we recruit from the city’s tougher areas that much anymore.  As someone has pointed out though, Chelsea do get to kids and families through very generous offers so that does make it harder but if you’ve got the best set-up with great coaches, parents will at least need to turn that down and go for the money instead. 
 

The decline has continued with the appointment and promotion of sub-standard coaches, turning down the opportunity to employ good ex-players to join the coaching staff because they aren’t Matt Hale’s mates, poor recruitment at the younger ages and giving more attention to the academy satellite at Bath and the West Country than here in Southampton and the South. People don’t sarcastically call the academy Bathampton for nothing.
 

Hopefully Matt Crocker will be able to get to make changes but he will be up against some skilful internal politicians adept at keeping their jobs and power.
 

The academy will be back to its best when the kids we sign at 8-12 start making the first team, not the kids we sign at 16 or older who’ve really been developed as players at another academy in the UK or Europe.

Last para especially. When academies start to struggle to produce a stremm of talent, they often focus on 15-16 year olds that stand out, usually because they are more physically developed, not because of their skill or football brains. By the time they get to 18-19, the numpties are let go, and there are no real footballers left. 

 

[Singapore Saint]

https://www.goal.com/en/news/ballard-rise-arsenal-heartbreak-to-taming-haaland/12jme45vw23k1ifka2aaxhsfw

Apparently this Arsenal almost-reject was considered by Saints Academy who passed up the chance to sign him unlike Tella, be interesting to see how he fares and if he eventually makes it as an Arsenal first-team regular.

[steve green]

On 03/01/2021 at 18:41, Saint Garrett said:

Reads to me a bit of jealousy...maybe he was one of the “Americans” interested in buying us, and didn’t see eye to eye with the owner. 
 

Seems to be more of a dig at Gao than anything else.

Looking at the details of the Burnley deal is a bit frightening. Only 15m of their own money, 80m loan from a hedge fund with an aggressive reputation, secured against the club assets (ground, bank balance and players).

 

What could possibly go wrong?

[SKD]

Jankewitz will be the next big one to break through and be sold on. 

[trousers]

48 minutes ago, SKD said:

Jankewitz will be the next big one to break through and be sold on. 

Unless he's been injured, Jankewitz seems to have taken a slight step back this season if anything. He appeared on the first team bench at the end of last season with Ralph declaring in interview: "I think he's the next young guy for us" and yet I don't think he's appeared on the bench at all so far this season? I'm assuming that's partly down to us acquiring Diallo, and there's usually only one berth on the bench for a "No.6". However, still no appearance on the bench now that the number of subs has gone up to 9. Would be interested hearing an update on Jankewitz from @LeG

[Shropshire Saint]

There have been so many "next big things" in recent years that has failed to materialise for various reasons. Alfie Jones, Calum Slattery, Jake Hesketh, Josh Sims, Harrison Reed and so on. Going further back, LLoyd James, Olly Lancashire (both of which suffered because they were thrown in at the deep end far too early). It seems to be a fact that the ones that make it seem to come out of nowhere which seems to be happening at the moment with Tella, N'Lundulo (both of which have made steady, but unspectauclar progress in the Under 23's) and now Chauke.  Not everyone will make it and some intakes will be better than others. We have had some spectacular disasters in the transfer market in recent years ( and a few successes) but for me I would rather see an academy player establish themselves. 

Edited 8 January, 2021 by Shropshire Saint

[Pamplemousse]

Just look at our bench on Monday.

 

Young players know they will get an opportunity with us. The intelligent ones will always choose us over Chelsea.

 

Take Tella for example, I think he showed enough on Monday that he will have an excellent career. Arsenal would never have given him the opportunity we gave him. He knew that.

 

And that benefits us because we not only get technically gifted players but mentally intelligent ones too.

Edited 8 January, 2021 by Pamplemousse

[AlexLaw76]

2 hours ago, Pamplemousse said:

Just look at our bench on Monday.

 

Young players know they will get an opportunity with us. The intelligent ones will always choose us over Chelsea.

 

Take Tella for example, I think he showed enough on Monday that he will have an excellent career. Arsenal would never have given him the opportunity we gave him. He knew that.

 

And that benefits us because we not only get technically gifted players but mentally intelligent ones too.

Arsenal would never have given him a chance? 
 

the only way that would be the case is if he was a poor player for them. One thing Arsenal do is give youngsters a chance. 
 

 

[wild-saint]

I’ve always felt that relegation 2005 had a big effect as it meant that parent of the top talent kids wouldn’t want their children joining the academy of a championship / league 1 side. So for around 7 years we had less pull and as a result 15 years later the kids coming through now aren’t as good. If its cyclical then the return to the premier league will mean players aged circa 15/16 and lower will start to get better again. Thoughts?

[SuperSAINT]

38 minutes ago, wild-saint said:

I’ve always felt that relegation 2005 had a big effect as it meant that parent of the top talent kids wouldn’t want their children joining the academy of a championship / league 1 side. So for around 7 years we had less pull and as a result 15 years later the kids coming through now aren’t as good. If its cyclical then the return to the premier league will mean players aged circa 15/16 and lower will start to get better again. Thoughts?

It’s possible.  My assumption is how teams like Chelsea etc Hoover up vast amounts of talent now.