Saints 0-0 West Ham - Match Thread

[BallBoy]

Let me start by saying that  I agree with most pundits. We are having a fantastic season. We are still punching above our weight and no longer regarded as being in danger of relegation. We are just not as good as we were a few weeks ago. 

The snap has gone and decisions are beginning to go against us. It is a cliche but "it is a game of fine margins". The differences are clear for us all to see. In order for us to get back to where we were then every player needs to be at 90-100%, not the 70-80% that we are now. No exceptions. Very few, if any, teams play at that level for a whole season. Leicester were the exception.

It was always obvious to me that we would be unlikely to maintain our previous standards with such a paper thin squad. I hoped we could but never really believed. That's what being a Saints fan for over 50 years does to us. I still hope we could actually finish 4th but I fear the Europa League might be our limit. I would actually prefer mid table to Europa. Too many games for our squad.

 

[S-Clarke]

21 minutes ago, Doctorkmt said:

Adams is a really bad footballer. Get rid in Jan. Loan, sell, don't care. 

If you're going to post something like that back it up and come back to answer the 'WTF' posts. As you clearly have no idea about football.

Otherwise you will be categorised as a non-saints supporting troll.

[John B]

9 minutes ago, Plastic said:

Expected 3 points but after watching the game, I’m happy with 1. 
West Ham played well, defensively excellent. Despite being 0-0 it was a good game to watch.

Yes I agree 

Moyes made five changes they have a bigger squad of decent players than us the CB who was outstanding was playing his first game of the season in the PL I believe

[John Boy Saint]

Interestingly in our last 4 games, all the opponents have set themselves up not to be beaten, Arsenal once down to 10 shut up shop. Man City scored a goal thanks to the ridiculous talent they have been able to go out and buy, but spent the latter stages of the game running down the clock. Fulham just set out not to be beaten.

 West Ham were likewise but hoping to convert any scraps that might be there, they defended like their lives depended on it, which was helped by our sometimes wayward passing, stumbling control of the ball in the “red zone” repetitive balls for the likes of Dawson to head away (there was a bloke making his first appearance since coming from Watford - and metaphorically knocking on Moyes door with his performance). If you take the current form expectation out of the results the last 4 teams we have played primary objective has been to stop us doing what we do - their opportunities to beat us have been pretty thin.

Losing Vestergaard has obviously been a loss as he had been putting in some good performances, bizarrely not having the option to use Redmond has stifled the left side somewhat, especially when the option taken is Long, whos play is predictable even from the comfort of my Sofa, so must be even more so if you are a professional footballer. Seems to be a Ralph blind spot Djenepo is (to repeat myself) like that little lump of Sodium dropped in water in Chemistry at school in his randomness, Long runs ambles back, so in reality letting someone like Tella or N’Lundalu off the leash isn’t anymore risky than playing either of those 2, or is the issue that we know Bertie isn’t as crisp as he once was so the primary objective is to protect him so best put a reliable “old” Pro in there over a nipper, eager to impress, tearing about all over the pitch and losing focus on his positional duties.

Time for Ralph to earn his corn and work out a way of negating teams who are now digging themselves in when they play us. 
 

At least it’s another point in the pot rather than a plucky defeat: keeps the tally ticking up.

 

[Fabrice29]

Don't think the regression in goals is too much of a shock tbh. We've been out scoring our XG all season, set pieces and quality strikes etc. Tie that in with teams not opening up against us and you get this. Think the next 3 PL games will suit us a lot more tbh. 3 teams who will come at us in their own way and will allow us to go back to being a bit more chaotic going forward rather than having to be precise. Doesn't mean the points will pick up, just means we'll create and score more. 

[Chez]

only thing I want to say is this high line defence at free kicks is an absolutely terrible idea.

Pretty much every free kick the opponents get close to scoring.

It is down to nothing more than luck that we have not conceded several goals already. The first couple of times it made sense and caught players offside (and the odd player still is caught offside) but increasingly the player that heads the ball is not and if analysts do their job, every side in the Prem will know we do this. Time to stop it.

[S-Clarke]

6 minutes ago, Chez said:

only thing I want to say is this high line defence at free kicks is an absolutely terrible idea.

Pretty much every free kick the opponents get close to scoring.

It is down to nothing more than luck that we have not conceded several goals already. The first couple of times it made sense and caught players offside (and the odd player still is caught offside) but increasingly the player that heads the ball is not and if analysts do their job, every side in the Prem will know we do this. Time to stop it.

Yeah, I've noticed that - what on earth is it about?

Soucek should have scored, he wasn't offside as Bertrand was a little slow getting back and was playing him on. That's not the first person in recent weeks who could have scored either.

It's a very, very high risk strategy and I'm not sure why we are doing it. It doesn't benefit us at all, doesn't allow us to attack any quicker or break...it just seems daft. A bit like our insane high line at the start of the season.

Edited 30 December, 2020 by S-Clarke

[saintjimbo83]

The left hand side has been redundant the last two games. Bertrand can't beat a man or put in a decent delivery and opposition teams know our only threat is the switch to KWP or between the lines. Stephens attempted this a few times yesterday, but not to the same level of Vestergaard. 

Bertrand and Redmond have a good understanding, but when Redmond is out injured or not starting there is no fluidity down that flank. I really hope we can get Brandon Williams in on loan to either improve Bertrand's performances or have the same impact KWP did towards the latter stages of last season.

As many people have said, we would have lost that game last season, so that is a positive. 

[sydenhamssocks]

50 minutes ago, John Boy Saint said:

Interestingly in our last 4 games, all the opponents have set themselves up not to be beaten, Arsenal once down to 10 shut up shop. Man City scored a goal thanks to the ridiculous talent they have been able to go out and buy, but spent the latter stages of the game running down the clock. Fulham just set out not to be beaten.

 West Ham were likewise but hoping to convert any scraps that might be there, they defended like their lives depended on it, which was helped by our sometimes wayward passing, stumbling control of the ball in the “red zone” repetitive balls for the likes of Dawson to head away (there was a bloke making his first appearance since coming from Watford - and metaphorically knocking on Moyes door with his performance). If you take the current form expectation out of the results the last 4 teams we have played primary objective has been to stop us doing what we do - their opportunities to beat us have been pretty thin.

Losing Vestergaard has obviously been a loss as he had been putting in some good performances, bizarrely not having the option to use Redmond has stifled the left side somewhat, especially when the option taken is Long, whos play is predictable even from the comfort of my Sofa, so must be even more so if you are a professional footballer. Seems to be a Ralph blind spot Djenepo is (to repeat myself) like that little lump of Sodium dropped in water in Chemistry at school in his randomness, Long runs ambles back, so in reality letting someone like Tella or N’Lundalu off the leash isn’t anymore risky than playing either of those 2, or is the issue that we know Bertie isn’t as crisp as he once was so the primary objective is to protect him so best put a reliable “old” Pro in there over a nipper, eager to impress, tearing about all over the pitch and losing focus on his positional duties.

Time for Ralph to earn his corn and work out a way of negating teams who are now digging themselves in when they play us. 
 

At least it’s another point in the pot rather than a plucky defeat: keeps the tally ticking up.

 

Absolutely!  And for some of the reasons you mention , our left side is completely ineffective. Ralph needs look beyond Long etc with the young lads or a new face in January. 

[Fitzhugh Fella]

1 hour ago, BallBoy said:

Let me start by saying that  I agree with most pundits. We are having a fantastic season. We are still punching above our weight and no longer regarded as being in danger of relegation. We are just not as good as we were a few weeks ago. 

The snap has gone and decisions are beginning to go against us. It is a cliche but "it is a game of fine margins". The differences are clear for us all to see. In order for us to get back to where we were then every player needs to be at 90-100%, not the 70-80% that we are now. No exceptions. Very few, if any, teams play at that level for a whole season. Leicester were the exception.

It was always obvious to me that we would be unlikely to maintain our previous standards with such a paper thin squad. I hoped we could but never really believed. That's what being a Saints fan for over 50 years does to us. I still hope we could actually finish 4th but I fear the Europa League might be our limit. I would actually prefer mid table to Europa. Too many games for our squad.

 

A fair post. I think the club need to decide (if they haven't already) whether they want to push on, but that would mean expanding their budget and can't see that happening under the current ownership.

[Croissaint]

16 minutes ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

A fair post. I think the club need to decide (if they haven't already) whether they want to push on, but that would mean expanding their budget and can't see that happening under the current ownership.

Can’t see any owner expanding budgets with no fans in stadiums

[Charlie Wayman]

Far too slow and far too unimaginative. I think we have been found out and can no longer break the lines as we did earlier in the season. WHU defended well in depth, not only could we not get through them but we didn't win many balls in their box either.

The whole team was mediocre at best and seemingly out-of-sorts. Persisted too long with Djenepo when it was obvious he was having a mare. Bit concerned about this lad in fact. Felt sorry for Bertrand who had no outlet as a result and became largely ineffective as an attacking force. The game is all about partnerships and Redmond seems to be Bertie's natural partner. Once again we descended into our frustrating square and back passing game when we couldn't work out how to deal with their packed defence. It sometimes took two, three or even four safe intermediate passes before the ball found its way from the CBs to either KWP or Bertie on the wing when a single pass would have done the trick. Aargh! We seem terrified to lose the ball since RH announced that we are now a possession based team.

I screamed at the Telly when Long replaced Adams and true to form he did his one run con trick and then disappeared from the game. Danny was well and truly shackled all evening and really didn't get a sniff after his early offside (Adams) foray.

What is becoming self evident is that although we are hard to beat we are nowhere near creative or fast thinking enough to score many goals especially now in this league where everyone seems intent on keeping clean sheets. Of course we are not the only culprits but we need to up our game if we do not want to end up in mid-table mediocrity.

[Fabrice29]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

Yeah, I've noticed that - what on earth is it about?

Soucek should have scored, he wasn't offside as Bertrand was a little slow getting back and was playing him on. That's not the first person in recent weeks who could have scored either.

It's a very, very high risk strategy and I'm not sure why we are doing it. It doesn't benefit us at all, doesn't allow us to attack any quicker or break...it just seems daft. A bit like our insane high line at the start of the season.

It's not quite as simple as changing it and every thing is OK. The downsides to defending deep are problematic as well. You allow the attackers, for example Soucek the ability to run onto the ball while being unable to get leverage yourself and the point of contact with the ball is closer to goal. Also means the keeper has less space to work in. They will have their reasons for defending high and will feel the issues described by yourself are easier to counteract than defending deeper.

[Baird of the land]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

Yeah, I've noticed that - what on earth is it about?

Soucek should have scored, he wasn't offside as Bertrand was a little slow getting back and was playing him on. That's not the first person in recent weeks who could have scored either.

It's a very, very high risk strategy and I'm not sure why we are doing it. It doesn't benefit us at all, doesn't allow us to attack any quicker or break...it just seems daft. A bit like our insane high line at the start of the season.

The high line certainly has my nerves on edge. Curious if Soucek had scored would the goal have been diallowed because dawson(who was offside) went to head the ball but missed it.

[macca155]

35 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

What is becoming self evident is that although we are hard to beat we are nowhere near creative or fast thinking enough to score many goals especially now in this league where everyone seems intent on keeping clean sheets. Of course we are not the only culprits but we need to up our game if we do not want to end up in mid-table mediocrity.

Good observation, our timidity later in the game,  and the opposition being set up defensively, is killing the games. However as you say the need for clean sheets is stifling everyone (except Leeds, and they'll learn), the number of draws is evidence of this. Puel would love to be a manager in the league this season. The table is really close this year and every game matters.

With no fans and the virus around, the fun has gone for the players. This is not a normal season and I suspect we are in for some weird scorelines in 2021.

[Saint IQ]

Last 2 or 3 games we've been crying out for a player like I dunno, Boufal to create something out of nothing. Should have kept him if he went for nothing

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, Saint IQ said:

Last 2 or 3 games we've been crying out for a player like I dunno, Boufal to create something out of nothing. Should have kept him if he went for nothing

I lost count of the number of games that Boufal played in when we needed 'something created out of nothing', however I can probably count on the fingers of one hand when he was actually the game changer we craved

Edited 30 December, 2020 by trousers

[the saint in winchester]

We don't seem to want players "to create something out of nothing" any more. It's become 'football by numbers', constant passing sideways, retaining possession, hoping our swilling the ball side to side will cause the oppo to leave space we can exploit. It doesn't happen. It's become stale. No-one takes on a player, tries to get through from the midfield and go for goal. It's not just Saints. Watching so many live games, I'm seeing all teams do this. It's just the tempo and pace that changes.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Saint IQ said:

Last 2 or 3 games we've been crying out for a player like I dunno, Boufal to create something out of nothing. Should have kept him if he went for nothing

Why? So he could have carried on not creating something out of nothing as he did in the previous 3 years with us?

[derry]

We were much more incisive with Armstrong mostly playing on the right. If Walcott isn't going to play up front, (I'd be interested how he would play with Ings), maybe he should play on the left and let Armstrong revert to mainly right side. Adams needs to wake up, in the last two matches he has been marginally offside when crossing for Walcott and Ings goals to be ruled out. The crosses were spot on but wasted by a lack of awareness. He could see across the backline so no excuse. It may have cost us four points.

Edited 30 December, 2020 by derry

[SaveloyMush]

1 hour ago, the saint in winchester said:

We don't seem to want players "to create something out of nothing" any more. It's become 'football by numbers', constant passing sideways, retaining possession, hoping our swilling the ball side to side will cause the oppo to leave space we can exploit. It doesn't happen. It's become stale. No-one takes on a player, tries to get through from the midfield and go for goal. It's not just Saints. Watching so many live games, I'm seeing all teams do this. It's just the tempo and pace that changes.

Oi - that was my quote!

[The Cat]

Has anyone read the interview with Hassenhuttl in The Athletic today?

Talks about the problems we are facing at the moment, especially with him being away from training.

There's "nearly no training" because it's "more about recovery" and the "less we can train, the more we have to show them clips of videos of what we want to see. They have to learn with their mind and not so much with the physical work on the pitch."

He also talk about having a small squad and that it's "very tough to find the balance of protecting them, leaving them out or playing them."

Whereas some other teams with larger, deeper squads can change 3 or 4 players a game without it having a significant impact on the team we just can't do that.

[Charlie Wayman]

4 hours ago, trousers said:

I lost count of the number of games that Boufal played in when we needed 'something created out of nothing', however I can probably count on the fingers of one hand when he was actually the game changer we craved

You are right of course but it is ironic that we let the lad go and brought in another untested youngster who is seemingly no better to replace him. Perhaps the lesson to be learned is that Boufal's occasional bursts of brilliance which Djenepo hasn't matched yet was about as good as it gets for Saints. 

[Charlie Wayman]

2 minutes ago, The Cat said:

Has anyone read the interview with Hassenhuttl in The Athletic today?

Talks about the problems we are facing at the moment, especially with him being away from training.

There's "nearly no training" because it's "more about recovery" and the "less we can train, the more we have to show them clips of videos of what we want to see. They have to learn with their mind and not so much with the physical work on the pitch."

He also talk about having a small squad and that it's "very tough to find the balance of protecting them, leaving them out or playing them."

Whereas some other teams with larger, deeper squads can change 3 or 4 players a game without it having a significant impact on the team we just can't do that.

Hope he is not beginning to complain about his lot here, after all he knew what he was taking on.

[The Cat]

5 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Hope he is not beginning to complain about his lot here, after all he knew what he was taking on.

It didn't strike me that he was, more him being realistic about the current challenges he is facing.

[Toussaint]

11 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Hope he is not beginning to complain about his lot here, after all he knew what he was taking on.

He was the champion of the small squad, he may feel differently now he knows the demands of the league.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Charlie Wayman said:

You are right of course but it is ironic that we let the lad go and brought in another untested youngster who is seemingly no better to replace him. Perhaps the lesson to be learned is that Boufal's occasional bursts of brilliance which Djenepo hasn't matched yet was about as good as it gets for Saints. 

Actually, I'd say Djenepo has pretty much matched Boufal's contribution perfectly - a couple of excellent goals a season but (as of yet) not really much else. SB's replacement this season is Walcott, who has already done more in a dozen games than Boufal does in an average season.

[Archers Road Stand]

Think we've hit a bit of a wall now. Lacked creativity against West Ham, can't really recall a decent chance we had other than the disallowed goal, West Ham had two decent opportunities from open play, Stephens got very lucky with the chance McCarthy saved. I want him to do well here but he always seems to have a lapse of concentration.

Don't hold much hope for N'Lundulu or Tella while Long is preferred to them. He once again offered very little while being on the pitch. We are effectively playing with 10 men when he's on. 

[skintsaint]

Another 0-0 after going 60 odd games without one before the Fulham game. Performance was decent enough no creativity really. Still can't complain, 7 points behind the leaders and 15 points ahead of relegation - im sure we all would have taken that after the 5-2 Spurs defeat and looking bloody rubbish!

Decent rest before the Liverpool game and can see us getting an unlucky loss as per ...

[AlexLaw76]

I thought we were incredibly poor / ponderous.  Lots of slow build up and play in front of their back 6.  No doubt, WH defended very well, but we need to be quicker to beat that, otherwise we wont win many more games this season. I believe only a handful of times, we got 'behind' them and had their defenders facing the wrong way.  Many times, we got the ball wide and then just worked it back inside (slowly), to the other side of the pitch.  I thought Armstrong added a touch of directness with his passing.

Walcott looked the most dangerous for us, but even he was not great in an attacking sense.

I hope the bulk of the 1st team are rested against Shrewsbury. Adams, JwP, Bertrand at the very least just need a break.

I found Djenepo incredibly frustrating again. So much skill but just added nothing.  I thought Romeu and KwP were decent for us though.

Edited 31 December, 2020 by AlexLaw76

[captainchris]

18 hours ago, The Cat said:

It didn't strike me that he was, more him being realistic about the current challenges he is facing.

Realistic or is he reducing expectations ? I think Ralph has changed his language recently from ‘winning mentality’ to ‘the main thing is a clean sheet’ 

Ralph appears to have less of a determination and ambition recently which has been picked up by the players. 

On a separate note, our ‘Youth Policy’ seems to have been dropped in favour of the Shane Long policy.

Come on Ralph step it back up....

 

[stevy777_x]

On 30/12/2020 at 12:01, S-Clarke said:

Yeah, I've noticed that - what on earth is it about?

Soucek should have scored, he wasn't offside as Bertrand was a little slow getting back and was playing him on. That's not the first person in recent weeks who could have scored either.

It's a very, very high risk strategy and I'm not sure why we are doing it. It doesn't benefit us at all, doesn't allow us to attack any quicker or break...it just seems daft. A bit like our insane high line at the start of the season.

Agree, everytime we defend a free kick in our box i m pretty sure it will be headed by the opposing player.

I get that you want to play the offside but 75% of the time it doesn’t work and the opposition has a chance.

It is just a matter of time before we concede from it.

Must be a daft idea from Dave Watson.

Also since Vestergaard has been out, we don t seem to stand on the edge of the box anymore and run towards the ball for attaking corners.

We have been too static on them in the last few games.

[waylander]

On 30/12/2020 at 10:00, Doctorkmt said:

Adams is a really bad footballer. Get rid in Jan. Loan, sell, don't care. 

Dr of what?

Your university called. They're rescinding your qualification!

Edited 31 December, 2020 by waylander

[Jeremy]

I'm no football expert but thought the team generally looked a bit tired. I can also now understand the importance of having a squad with a bit of depth. I think the fixture schedule is really tough (possibly unfair) on those teams in the league with moderate budgets like Saints.  

[Doctorkmt]

Sorry, been socialising with friends and family over the festive period....Adams is forever unbalanced. His goals are hoofs or scuffs. Loves getting offside and very often his first touch is more like a shot. Never been convinced. Gave him time, but he is just dreadful. I feel for you guys if you can't see that.