Saints 0-0 West Ham - Match Thread

[Turkish]

6 minutes ago, The Cat said:

Can't say I agree with a lot of the above comments. It wasn't the most entertaining game, however it's a decent point against a team who have a much better squad than we do.

Not sure why people are getting on Stephens back, he had a good game apart from one poor decision. 

Yes we all want to see exciting high press football, but is that possible with a small squad and loads of games in a short period? You also have to factor in West Ham's performance, because apart from the odd period when they were on the front foot they largely sat back with a load of players behind the ball. 

This is how I saw it. People have ridiculous expectations. We have been very good this season, we’re always going to have a dip at some point. Never really felt like we’d lose, they sat deep and defended well. 

[Medrurkin]

40 minutes ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

We need a big confident striker and quickly. One that isn't going to be intimidated. Adams doesn't have that quality. As for Long, he contributes nothing productive. It is embarrassing to hear the commentators trotting out how many hours it has been since Long, who is supposed to be a striker, scored a goal. All this tippy-tappy between McCarthy and the defenders at 0-0 with 5 minutes to go gets us nowhere either. 

To be honest, at the end, I was content for the passing it around at the back, because W Ham looked far more likely to score than we did. Given our propensity for the Stephens/Bednarek partnership to get caught cold with counters, I  was holding my breath and glad for the final whistle.

[washsaint]

Solid performance but all the zip in our play has disappeared and we are back to being ponderous, slow and, very worryingly, toothless in attack.  3 games now where we have never looked like scoring (or really creating anything).

The positives are that we are defensively very solid but I can only see us sliding down to 13th or so at the rate we are going.  Would be very disappointing as top 8 should be in reach.

Left hand side as an attacking threat is non-existent and Djenepo just does not look like a footballer right now and Bertrand slows the game down constantly.

[Turkish]

17 minutes ago, washsaint said:

Solid performance but all the zip in our play has disappeared and we are back to being ponderous, slow and, very worryingly, toothless in attack.  3 games now where we have never looked like scoring (or really creating anything).

The positives are that we are defensively very solid but I can only see us sliding down to 13th or so at the rate we are going.  Would be very disappointing as top 8 should be in reach.

Left hand side as an attacking threat is non-existent and Djenepo just does not look like a footballer right now and Bertrand slows the game down constantly.

Nonsense. We’ve had 3 goals ruled out in those games for marginal offsides, hit the wood work and missed a sitter. A goal in any of those games would have changed the dynamic totally.

Edited 29 December, 2020 by Turkish

[oldsaint]

 I think we played Ok but did  not make many goal scoring opportunities for our forwards.

We pass the ball to slowly between our centre backs and Romeu and JWP allowing the opposing side time to regroup in front of us. 

I think a change is required at home we need to break up  Romeu and JWP  they are both DM's its OK to play them at away matches but at home we need a more attacking option to break down the opponents defence any thoughts ( do we have such a player ?)

[StrangelyBrown]

20 minutes ago, Avenue_Saint said:

We weren’t just drawing blanks in attack again today. We were bad in defence too. 
 

Stephens for all his flashy pings forward, was a liability in the 6 yard box again. I watched him closely and on 2 or 3 occasions like Fulham, the opposition had too much freedom in the box.

Against better opposition, we would’ve been punished today.

Need Salisu to be available ASAP or get Vesty back and fit

 

One mistake does not make a liability. Don't get me wrong I'm not a Stephens fan, but he was good today.

If you are going to judge based on one mistake is Ings now a disaster?? He made numerous mistakes/poor decisions today and arguably one of the weaker players on the pitch.

[CanadaSaint]

In fairness to Bertrand I think he is, as others have said, totally unsure what Djenepo is going to do next. He looked better after Armstrong came on. Djenepo is like a football version of Tourette’s.

[fanimal]

Love to know how many times when in promising positions we sloppily gave the ball away with ludicrous passes

[Saint Fan CaM]

I guess we need to remember that we’re actually tied 5th, with the difference being a lack of goals. Where’s the problem? IMO it’s the imbalance on the left caused by an aged, slow Bertrand and an unreliable Djenepo. This also renders the right hand side less effective because our play is so predictable. We cycle the ball the same way nearly every attack...it’s no surprise we’ve been found out!

Make no mistake - West Ham pressed us better, won more 2nd balls and had more attacking intent. We were lucky to survive Stephens mistake, but to be fair he did well again...certainly not the worst player on the pitch.

[Nordic Saint]

A lot of fans of other clubs are saying that Dawson kicking Adams in the head was "shocking" and "reckless"  yet Saints fans have barely mentioned it. 

Craig Dawson criticised for kicking Che Adams in the head | JOE.co.uk

Edited 29 December, 2020 by Nordic Saint

[Whitey Grandad]

3 minutes ago, Nordic Saint said:

A lot of fans of other clubs are saying that Dawson kicking Adams in the head was "shocking" and "reckless" -   a red card offence and a penalty -  yet Saints fans have barely mentioned it. 

Craig Dawson criticised for kicking Che Adams in the head | JOE.co.uk

Penalty? Wasn’t it in our own penalty area?

[Nordic Saint]

2 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Penalty? Wasn’t it in our own penalty area?

Yes, of course, you're right. Just a red card then. Thanks, I've corrected that now.

Edited 29 December, 2020 by Nordic Saint

[Lord Duckhunter]

For the the praise they’ve been receiving lately , OR & JWP showed the limitations in their game today. They’re too cautious, played in front of their 2 banks of 4 and don’t make anywhere near enough forward runs. It comes to something when our 3rd choice centre half is the one picking passes into the guys when they’re between the lines. One of them, you may get away with, but both together (and Hojberg previously) means  we seriously lack some subtlety and craft in there. Ings on form drops in to the 10 and does the job, but when he’s off his game we’re very easy to defend against. 
 

 

[stevy777_x]

Long coming on was utterly pointless, a waste of space, we should have released him last summer.

Adams stzying on would have still have made more of an impact than Long did.

I don’t get why we don’t use a few youngsters off the bench with 20-25 mins to go.

It gives them some valuable minutes and we get to rest of few of the key players.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 minutes ago, stevy777_x said:

 

I don’t get why we don’t use a few youngsters off the bench with 20-25 mins to go.

It gives them some valuable minutes and we get to rest of few of the key players.

 

And had we lost as a result I bet you’d be the first moaning. 

[Saint Billy]

What I don't get is this, our defence square balls to one another sideways on numerous occasions, yes I get the not wanting to lose possession, so why does it invariably end up back with the keeper who boots it upfield and yes we lose possession. 

For me this is where Vest is being really missed as he discovered the art of the killer pass which none of our current defenders possess. 

[harvey]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

This is how I saw it. People have ridiculous expectations. We have been very good this season, we’re always going to have a dip at some point. Never really felt like we’d lose, they sat deep and defended well. 

That's rubbish...numerous times we had the chance to play it forward with a decisive pass but we either didn't see it or weren't confident enough to go for it. 2 points dropped.

[stevy777_x]

11 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

And had we lost as a result I bet you’d be the first moaning. 

No I wouldn’t, when I see that we try our utmost, that is sufficient for me.

I prefer to go all out for wins and then lose a few as a result. Had we gone for it in the last 2 games, I reckon we would have got 3 points and not 2 from them.

you also got to see the long term outlook giving some minutes to Long as opposed to the younger ones is better for the future.

 

 

[pimpin4rizeal]

We do struggle to break down sides who don’t give a lot of space .. our game works better when we are not the team with majority of posession imo, quick transitions..

i think overall our team is pretty strong now though another striker would help and we could probably do with another upgrade on number ten positions especially if it meant no djenepo and Redmond.. same goes for long in the striker upgrade we have zero depth up front so it’s hard to change the game.

[Turkish]

24 minutes ago, harvey said:

That's rubbish...numerous times we had the chance to play it forward with a decisive pass but we either didn't see it or weren't confident enough to go for it. 2 points dropped.

What bit of what i said was rubbish? You don’t agree that we’re in a dip on form? You think we should play a high energy, high press game every week even with a small squad carrying injuries with a congested fixture list? They didn’t defend well? Your reply is confusing.

Edited 29 December, 2020 by Turkish

[OttawaSaint]

Just seen the Dawson/Adams incident. Yeah he probably didn’t mean it but what’s he swinging his boot like that with Adams’ head right there? VAR must have taken a look, but based on how quickly they reviewed the offside goal they were asleep at the controls. Red card all day long.

Edited 29 December, 2020 by OttawaSaint

[Vancouver Saint]

2 hours ago, obelisk said:

Well, in the past we'd have lost that. Take the positives.

This. Could've been better could've been worse. West Ham defensively drilled - we needed Ings's offside goal to count as Moyes came here to block out our midfield running play and wait until the last 15 mins to bring on attacking pace to pinch it. Almost worked for them. So glad it didn't. A draw against them is a step in the right direction after losing the last five. Stay positive. Walcott played well. McCarthy earned his toast.

[JRM]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

This is how I saw it. People have ridiculous expectations. We have been very good this season, we’re always going to have a dip at some point. Never really felt like we’d lose, they sat deep and defended well. 

I think you're both right, we battered them for the first 10 - 15 mins, if Ings goal had stood would have been a different game. West Ham were deep with lots of men behind the ball, we've never been good at breaking down sides like that. We defended well and point was fair. Ralph probably hoping we have a month break for covid now. 

A top half finish would still be an achievement for this squad. 

[rallyboy]

Adams getting a kick in the head was an accident, Theo getting studded down his calf so late it was off the ball was definitely not, and a proper referee would have dealt with that.

It was a little bit Puel tonight, hopefully through fatigue.

We're doing okay.

[austsaint]

2 hours ago, Katalinic said:

Left side needs an upgrade, becoming more obvious every game.

That was the glaring issue for me too.   Whether it's been Redmond, Armstrong or Djenepo working on the left with Bertrand, there hasn't been that  overlap run and understanding between LB and wide attacker for some time.     I still think Bertrand has the run in his legs but we haven't seen it consistently since Redmond was playing consistently well and on occasions Boufal.       Overall you have to expect some flat performances at this point and even if just one of the disallowed goals had stood v Fulham and tonight there would be scarce room for criticism.    Walcott, both midfielders, Stephens and KWP all had good games.  The Ings disallowed goa was a joy to watch for the three seconds the goal stood.l 

[goodymatt]

Accident or not, Dawson endangered an opponent and that has to be a red card. He basically kicks Che’s head like a football with a decent amount of force. Che is fortunate to not be in a similar situation to Jiminez and I’m sure he was affected by it for the rest of the time he was on the pitch. Surprised how quickly he got up really. 

[washsaint]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

Nonsense. We’ve had 3 goals ruled out in those games for marginal offsides, hit the wood work and missed a sitter. A goal in any of those games would have changed the dynamic totally.

Fair points.  However teams now know how to nullify our threat and we struggle to have a plan B.  Again not surprising as this is pretty much the same team that struggled for 3 years or so.

At least it is now only 2 defeats in 14 or so and we have 8 clean sheets this season which is a remarkable achievement based on where we were.

Hopefully Ralph tweaks and we rediscover some of our panache.  Still a great start to the season.

 

[woodsaint1]

Not sure where we go next with Djenepo. Has been given ample starting opportunities for us, but his form has tailed off badly since the early promise he showed last season. Also gives away stupid fouls and picks up lots of needless bookings for a winger and will be heading for a suspension soon. Clearly hes best as an 'impact' sub, but even in that role hes had little impact for us. Yes hes only 22 and still developing, but patience isnt guaranteed at PL level.

[macca155]

Well earned point against a well drilled dangerous opponent. I'm way more disappointed about only drawing against Arsenal than this lot, says a great deal about this season.

Obviously we all want a win but football doesn't work that way, even if you spend millions on players. I though Stephens, KWP, and Romeu were the pick of the bunch today, although I would have Rice as MOTM as he single handedly broke up up pretty much every attack. He always plays like that against Saints, can't he take a day off.

1 goal in 4 games is very worrying, but one loss in 6 is probably the better stat. It is a bit Puel as others have pointed out, but at least there's hope that a more swashbuckling style will return when all players are fit.

We can all see that the left hand side is becoming a problem, Armstrong is much better on the right and it would release Walcott to play through the middle with either Ings or Adams. Dejenepo is pretty unfathomable and unpredictable at the moment, Redmond whilst far more consistent hasn't really got going this year. He also seems to have a lot of injuries. There are no youngsters to 'have a go' in that position, so Saints need to get the cheque book out. 

My choice would be Demarai Gray, left winger, fits the Ralph model and is worth around £10 million. Problem is I very much doubt whether Leicester will sell him to a close rival. 

Onward and upward

[Midfield_General]

As a bit of perspective:

'Though <Hasenhuttl's> side were unable to find a winner, Tuesday's draw means only Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United and Chelsea have won more points in the Premier League than Southampton in 2020.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55406823

With almost half the season played we're 6 points off the top of the Premier League, up against clubs bankrolled by billionaires and governments.

Personally I don't think two slightly flat draws on the bounce is anything to be too down about, really. 

[SNSUN]

Typical Moyes West Ham set up to make things difficult for us and did so. A point was not a bad result in the end, as they were in the ascendancy towards the end of the game. Had the Ings goal been given (I'd be interested to see what would have happened had the lino NOT put his flag up) it would have been a much different game as WHam would have had to come at us more, leaving gaps. This season we've largely been better against sides when we've got the first goal.

 

None of our attacking players shone today bar Walcott, and even he sometimes makes the wrong decision with the ball. That said it was good to see Ings getting 90 minutes, and even though his goal didn't count it was a great finish and shows glimpses of what we've been missing up front. I'd suggest Che may need a break but it's difficult when you have Long or youngsters to cover for him. Maybe Ings and Walcott up front? For me the two best Saints players on the pitch (not for the first time this season) were KWP and Romeu, although I thought Bednarek had a decent game too, and McCarthy's save near the end was crucial. Romeu probably my MOTM.

 

4 games with no win now, but we're still proving difficult to beat/break down and we are not being cut away from the top 4 spots just yet. Liverpool will be tough but West Brom recently showed they're not at their free flowing best, and they have no Matip too now. (All 3 senior CBs out.) As I said to the missus during the game, if you can't score, be sure to keep a clean sheet, and we did that today.

[Hamilton Saint]

Things looked promising in the early part of the game and we looked likely to score. But as the game wore on, we seemed to run out of ideas. Of the front four, only Walcott was effective--finding space and putting pressure on the WH defence.

[whelk]

Respect the point. I get carried away and expect us to beat everyone but as said we would easily have lost that previously.

Long is increasingly looking a waste of space. 
made me laugh when Morrison said he just needs to add goals to his game. 

[Convict Colony]

Think everyone was probably a bit knackered especially JWP and Adams as we have played 4 games in 13 days and they play in the more all action positions.

On reflection just glad we haven't got anymore injuries, got a point and the guys have nearly a week off now until the 4th jan.

Left side seems to be the problem at the mo, from bertie to Moussa and redmond who have 2 goals v 4 goals from Armstrong/Theo

[niceandfriendly]

Stephens did well I thought, didn't expect him to be playing Vestergaard-type long balls all game and he played well overall like he did against Fulham. Yes, he made one mistake but Ings made about 50 and I don't see too many pointing the fingers at him.

The amount of times we gave the ball away in promising areas was painful, everyone was at it.

Moussa had a shocker, starting to worry about him and his future here.

Bertrand, Ings, Che and Armstrong also had games to forget. And Long? F*cking hell. Honestly it's getting silly now. Nothing personal against the guy, in fact he's a really nice bloke having met him before, but why is he still playing for a Premier League club? He doesn't score goals, barely runs anymore, has lost his touch and doesn't threaten in any way shape or form. His foul against Ogbonna at the corner flag was just moronic. We need to start questioning Ralph's judgement on this one now. Can he really not see that Long isn't up to it anymore?

I don't see too many people panicking or getting too down after a draw against a half-decent West Ham side, but it's true that our squad is looking paper thin and we clearly can't keep up our great form over a long period. Still having a great season, but we need to be careful as we could slide down the league quickly if we don't get over this mini-slump soon.

[niceandfriendly]

Forgot to mention Theo who had a very good game. Not perfect, he still lacks a decent killer pass oftentimes but he was the only one running directly at their defence and was our biggest threat all game. 

[hasper57saint]

The result clearly demonstrates how thin our squad really is when we have to call upon Shane Long as a sub. He just hasn’t got it any more and Djnepo appears to be out of his depth in the Prem. I am not complaining about our current position in the Table but the last two matches just show that there is no plan B and the responsibility lies with the Owners. No one really was outstanding yesterday and even Romeo couldn’t fire them up. I just hope that Che’s boot to the head has no serious repercussions. Many other players would have played on it but he just shook his head and got on with it. Again there were inconsistencies with the Ref. Hope you are back soon Ralph. 

 

 

[John B]

10 hours ago, rallyboy said:

Adams getting a kick in the head was an accident, Theo getting studded down his calf so late it was off the ball was definitely not, and a proper referee would have dealt with that.

It was a little bit Puel tonight, hopefully through fatigue.

We're doing okay.

Did you not think that West Ham were good defensively and deserved a point

[rallyboy]

I did, but I'm more interested in Saints.

 

[macca155]

13 hours ago, bpsaint said:

Did you miss the bit where he fucked up and nearly lost us the game?

Really don't get this. He had a good game. Lots of good interceptions and looked in control. Yes he had a moment but hardly worth these sort of comments.

The main issue is that without Vestergaard, Saints lack aerial domination at the back. That is where Stephens struggles a little, and probably means he will remain as back up.

[Medrurkin]

12 hours ago, washsaint said:

Solid performance but all the zip in our play has disappeared and we are back to being ponderous, slow and, very worryingly, toothless in attack.  3 games now where we have never looked like scoring (or really creating anything).

The positives are that we are defensively very solid but I can only see us sliding down to 13th or so at the rate we are going.  Would be very disappointing as top 8 should be in reach.

Left hand side as an attacking threat is non-existent and Djenepo just does not look like a footballer right now and Bertrand slows the game down constantly.

How do you get we are not looking like scoring? We have had 3 fractionally offside goals disallowed, all of them would class a classy, well worked goals but for a fraction of a second.

[John B]

Just now, macca155 said:

Really don't get this. He had a good game. Lots of good interceptions and looked in control. Yes he had a moment but hardly worth these sort of comments.

The main issue is that without Vestergaard, Saints lack aerial domination at the back. That is where Stephens struggles a little, and probably means he will remain as back up.

Yes I agree Stephens played quite well as Vestergaard has all season but they all make mistakes if they did not they would be playing for the top teams

 

Vestergaard gifted the ball to Kevin De Bruyne and Man City scored against us recently

 

 

[Turkish]

9 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

As a bit of perspective:

'Though <Hasenhuttl's> side were unable to find a winner, Tuesday's draw means only Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United and Chelsea have won more points in the Premier League than Southampton in 2020.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55406823

With almost half the season played we're 6 points off the top of the Premier League, up against clubs bankrolled by billionaires and governments.

Personally I don't think two slightly flat draws on the bounce is anything to be too down about, really. 

Incredible really when you consider Armstrong has got long covid, Betrand is a slow, plodding shadow of the player we used to have who is spends every game sulking, Adams misses 5 sitters a game, all our centre backs make loads of mistakes, McCarthy needs upgrading, Ings is planning to leave, Walcott just runs at people with no intelligence, our major summer centre back signing has got something seriously wrong with him and Redmond and Djenepo are just dog sh1t. 

Edited 30 December, 2020 by Turkish

[Doctorkmt]

Adams is a really bad footballer. Get rid in Jan. Loan, sell, don't care. 

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, Doctorkmt said:

Adams is a really bad footballer. Get rid in Jan. Loan, sell, don't care. 

You obviously dont know anything about football.

[austsaint]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

You obviously dont know anything about football.

I think he might be imitating your satirical piece immediately above.  If he isn't.....you might be right.

[Pamplemousse]

6 minutes ago, Doctorkmt said:

Adams is a really bad footballer. Get rid in Jan. Loan, sell, don't care. 

😂

[Whitey Grandad]

8 minutes ago, Doctorkmt said:

Adams is a really bad footballer. Get rid in Jan. Loan, sell, don't care. 

And sign Messi instead?

[Plastic]

Expected 3 points but after watching the game, I’m happy with 1. 
West Ham played well, defensively excellent. Despite being 0-0 it was a good game to watch.

[Mr X]

Was a bit miffed with our lack of creativity & goal threat yesterday but on reflection we could have easily lost the game  & very nearly did so we have to be  happy with the point especially with several players that wouldn't normally play on the pitch, we don't seem to ever have a plan b for when our high press doesn't work against teams like west ham?