Brighton 1-2 Saints - Reaction

[JRM]

Vestergaard is looking more and more like VVD in his prime in each game, fantastic improvement in performances he is now one of our most important players and provides a spine to the team. Contributing important goals. 

Our away record continues to be superb under Ralph. 

Overall was not a great game , but got the points, tough run coming up so good to have points on the board. 

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 08/12/2020 at 11:58, VectisSaint said:

Where does that quote come from? I'm not sure that it is accurate, it certainly does not appear in the FA Laws of the Game. The FA Laws of the Game (https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct) actually state "If a defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area and continues holding inside the penalty area, the referee must award a penalty kick." No other type of foul (other than holding) has this type of clarification. I don't think anyone could say the foul was awarded for holding was it? The initial foul was a shove, and the action in the box was a trip. According to the FA Law 12 I don't think a penalty should have been awarded, the fould was not for March holding Walker-Peters. 

Still it was given, and I'm happy that we got one for a change. Carragher's assessment was garbage though, he clearly has no idea of the Law, was arguing against it for completely false reasons.

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Even if you consider it to have been a push followed by a trip you can always allow advantage for the first and then give a penalty for the second. If you haven’t blown your whistle you can penalise the latter of the two.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 08/12/2020 at 11:39, Turkish said:

Dermot what his name the former ref just said it was pen for exactly that reason also saying Spurs got one very similar earlier in the season.

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Dermot Gallagher

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 08/12/2020 at 11:39, eelpie said:

I

 

I've looked at the BBC's stills and I'm still not sure that there was a second foul in the penalty area. I'd like to see cameras focussing on the penalty box perimeters.. That would help to clarify incidents. And the referee should have access to these images before it is referred to VAR. imo. The ref could still have final input.. In the end issues of relegation and success hang on good decisions and too bad if it takes a minute longer.

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The second foul was more of a trip. KWP’s thigh was caught which was one of the reasons that he went down.

I agree, if you’re going to use VAR there need to be cameras everywhere and certainly looking along the boundary lines.

[cambsaint]

As the cricket umpire once said to a famous cricketer who said "That wasn't out umpire", the reply was "Read the morning papers lad and you'll see it was."

This endless discussion is pointless now.

[Saint Pete]

  On 08/12/2020 at 11:39, eelpie said:

I

 

I've looked at the BBC's stills and I'm still not sure that there was a second foul in the penalty area. I'd like to see cameras focussing on the penalty box perimeters.. That would help to clarify incidents. And the referee should have access to these images before it is referred to VAR. imo. The ref could still have final input.. In the end issues of relegation and success hang on good decisions and too bad if it takes a minute longer.

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But in my opinion what you are suggesting is exactly what shouldn’t be happening with VAR and what most fans don’t want. Where is this going? More and more cameras, longer and longer delays while officials pore over them, referring the images backwards and forwards between on-field and off-field refs in order to make marginal and often very subjective decisions that  don’t always have a clear-cut right or wrong answer anyway. Looking for 100% perfection from VAR and asking it to officiate on absolutely everything is not the right way to go, it will never resolve things in the way that some want it to and we’ll end up with 3 hour matches! I’m not against VAR as think it is generally helping to get fairer decisions and removing some of the bias towards bigger teams. But it needs limiting to correcting the really clear officiating errors, that was the way it was sold when it was first mooted.

[Appy]

Great win, despite not playing well. 
 

As a side note, Gross’ penalty should’ve been retaken as he stopped in his run up. 

[Mr X]

I'll take the lucky win! But lets be fair Brighton deserved a point, harsh penalty imo 

[hasper57saint]

  On 08/12/2020 at 11:57, Toussaint said:

day do doe dont dey doe, likche

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Carragher is in the wrong job. He should be a referee in the watermelon seed spitting contests.

[St_Tel49]

  On 07/12/2020 at 21:55, Jonnyboy said:

You know what, I don't think we are getting relegated this season 😇

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That's it - we're doomed ☹️

🙂

[VectisSaint]

  On 08/12/2020 at 12:36, Whitey Grandad said:

Even if you consider it to have been a push followed by a trip you can always allow advantage for the first and then give a penalty for the second. If you haven’t blown your whistle you can penalise the latter of the two.

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Advantage wasn't played, the referee blew for the initial foul that was clearly outside the penalty area, that's why his initial decision was a direct free kick outside the area. VAR overruled this, wrongly in my view, either by applying advantage (how can they do that) or more likely for the foul continuing in the area (which is not correct unless it is for holding, which it clearly wasn't) according to Law 12.

[saintwbu]

Just watched the highlights again and hadn’t realised that it’s actually KWP that drops the ball off to Vestergaard in our own half, and ends up on the end of the pass winning a penalty. What a one-two that is! God how we’ve missed having a good attacking fullback on that side in recent years. 

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 08/12/2020 at 13:31, Appy said:

Great win, despite not playing well. 
 

As a side note, Gross’ penalty should’ve been retaken as he stopped in his run up. 

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Not so I’m afraid. That is explicitly allowed in The Laws. I don’t think it’s right either. Especially now that they are getting hot on goalkeepers leaving their line.

  On 08/12/2020 at 14:31, VectisSaint said:

Advantage wasn't played, the referee blew for the initial foul that was clearly outside the penalty area, that's why his initial decision was a direct free kick outside the area. VAR overruled this, wrongly in my view, either by applying advantage (how can they do that) or more likely for the foul continuing in the area (which is not correct unless it is for holding, which it clearly wasn't) according to Law 12.

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The whistle wasn’t blown until KWP is on the ground so you cannot say that it was blown for the ‘initial’ foul. It was a comprehensive foul, not two separate ones. The ref wasn’t in the best position either.

[fanimal]

Two poor penalty decisions cancel each other out so a nice juicy 1-0 away win, shame we all weren’t there to celebrate with them yet again 

[Lighthouse]

  On 08/12/2020 at 15:25, fanimal said:

Two poor penalty decisions cancel each other out so a nice juicy 1-0 away win, shame we all weren’t there to celebrate with them yet again 

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What on Earth was poor about Brighton’s penalty decision? JWP stuck his hand straight up above his head and slapped the ball. That was as blatant as it gets.

[redder freak]

March tried to bring KWP down just outside the penalty area. A risky professional foul and would have been lucky to get away with it. Thankfully for us, he didn’t. Great to see Ings back and scoring. I never expected it would be so soon. I hope the medics know what they’re doing.

[saint1977]

It was a handy win in quite an even game. First 30 minutes was all Brighton, got into it a bit after that but Vesty’s towering header against the run of play.
Second half much more like the form of this season and the better side although not firing on all cylinders. 
Vesty MOTM for me, great ball to put KWP away for the controversial penalty. Composed throughout and good distribution in the Brighton half as well second period. Romeu close behind. Danny made a huge difference. Theo did well, nearly a very good goal, Che a bit off his recent high standards. Good to see Redmond back, struck his volley from Danny’s juggle too well.

Armstrong may need a break, lacks sharpness and off the pace since COVID. JWP slightly off form, great corner but odd penalty to give away.

On the second penalty, I thought March committed two fouls, he is nowhere near the ball on either but probably a free kick first for the push. He should force KWP wide, diving in was risky. He was a bit unfortunate but from his post match comments can’t see the risk he was taking.

 

 

[BERMUDASAINT]

  On 07/12/2020 at 22:34, Saint Pete said:

Never ever a penalty that and everything that is wrong about VAR currently, interfering in decisions that it doesn’t need to, where the only clear and obvious thing is that there is no clear and obvious error by the ref! Maybe VAR should make a rule that if they need to review a decision for over a minute, they stay with the refs original decision as it can’t be a clear error if you have to watch it that many times?

Having said that, I will take the win and 5th place in the table 😀 Particularly in a game where we really never got going. Very poor in the first half, aside from a superb header from Vestergaard just before half time which is always a great time to score. Our defending worried me all game but nothing unusual in that, apart from the defending from set pieces which was especially atrocious. Not sure who’s idea that high line from free kicks was but it needs a rethink for the next game. From open play, Vestergaard did play well though today, so fair play to him.

We were a bit better in second half and the quality and work rate of Ings clearly helped us. Noticeable that others like Armstrong came into the game more once they had Ings buzzing around them. Now that Ings is back, would expect Djenepo to drop out to the bench and Theo to drop back out wide, although I would consider bringing Redmond back in for Theo as well if he is fully fit again.

 

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Did you see the replay???? I hope so they showed it a gazillion times, he shouldered KWP in the back outside the box, but then lunged for the ball and caught KWP, who was very happy to entangle the idiot challenge! Alot went on there in those split seconds, the ref knew it was a foul,  VAR caught the lunge, good decision! Technology helped the ref, VAR confirmed that the lunge was in the box... shut up and take the VAR!...............meanwhile,  back to my man JWP, and his disgusting penalty given against him, are we to assume he was trying to hold that ball like the statue of liberty 🗽, he is not that dumb! It was his motion, he uses his arm along to adjust and jostle, didn't, couldn't see the ball over his head, felt his liberty hand touch the ball and flinched it away like a school boy hand strapping! The ball harmlessly dropped to where it would have landed without the ball, and welbeck was on the wrong side of jwp to get the ball. So how did jWP stop a girl scoring opportunity? This wasn't a shot? Opposition did have control? Yet we are happy to give a goal for this and not KWP who has the ball running on goal and is taken out from behind? You lot are cracked!.........my suggestion to soft handball would to allow a free kick on the 18 yard line closest to the offense, no penalty but a good advantage to what is unavoidable whitg having arms and all.......what ya all think.......march on up Saints!

[BERMUDASAINT]

  On 08/12/2020 at 15:43, Lighthouse said:

What on Earth was poor about Brighton’s penalty decision? JWP stuck his hand straight up above his head and slapped the ball. That was as blatant as it gets.

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You really think he is as dumb as you? Please look again to see if he did it deliberately. The man gives his all and you think  this is what he is practicing along with his free kicks, a tribute to Maradona maybe?

[igsey]

  On 08/12/2020 at 19:55, BERMUDASAINT said:

You really think he is as dumb as you? Please look again to see if he did it deliberately. The man gives his all and you think  this is what he is practicing along with his free kicks, a tribute to Maradona maybe?

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Since when does intent matter for a handball in the area? Penalty all day long.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 08/12/2020 at 20:04, igsey said:

Since when does intent matter for a handball in the area? Penalty all day long.

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Lack of intent is a very modern concept. Pierluigi Collina bears a lot of responsibility for it.

I’m old fashioned and prefer proper football.

[Weston Saint]

An afterthought....

After 11 games last season we were 18th with 8 points and a -17 goal difference.  Watford and Norwich were below us and ended up relegated. The other was Bournemouth 7th with 16 points and  + 1 goal difference.   

 

[danjosaint]

Watch it again, slowly , as the ball comes to Welbeck it looks like he handles it , Jwp puts his arm up to claim handball  unfortunately it hits Welbecks shoulder and not top of arm, purely bad judgement in a split second, that's why he was so livid 

[trousers]

  On 08/12/2020 at 21:13, Weston Saint said:

An afterthought....

After 11 games last season we were 18th with 8 points and a -17 goal difference.  Watford and Norwich were below us and ended up relegated. The other was Bournemouth 7th with 16 points and  + 1 goal difference.   

 

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Well that's cheered me up no end. Cheers WS!

[woodsaint1]

  On 08/12/2020 at 21:13, Weston Saint said:

An afterthought....

After 11 games last season we were 18th with 8 points and a -17 goal difference.  Watford and Norwich were below us and ended up relegated. The other was Bournemouth 7th with 16 points and  + 1 goal difference.   

 

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Sides at the bottom at risk of being cut adrift already. 34 points (or less) will likely see teams safe this season. Means we only need a few more wins and we're safe 😂. Time to start looking up for once

[OttawaSaint]

  On 08/12/2020 at 21:13, Weston Saint said:

An afterthought....

After 11 games last season we were 18th with 8 points and a -17 goal difference.  Watford and Norwich were below us and ended up relegated. The other was Bournemouth 7th with 16 points and  + 1 goal difference.   

 

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So what you are saying is, anything above 16pts at this stage and we’re safe!

*checks table* 20 points! Lovely jubbly!

[Lighthouse]

  On 08/12/2020 at 19:55, BERMUDASAINT said:

You really think he is as dumb as you? Please look again to see if he did it deliberately. The man gives his all and you think  this is what he is practicing along with his free kicks, a tribute to Maradona maybe?

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I’m sure Oscar Gobern never practiced or planned to do whatever the hell that was at Bournemouth in League 1, still deserved a red card.

That was a penalty, any day of the week. If Maguire did that against us at OT and VAR didn’t give it, this place would be absolutely howling, I guarantee.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Thought Potter did a good job of tactically nullifying our play in the first - they were trying to stretch us wide and exploiting the holes. It was working well until Ralph made some changes which helped us get a foothold. Vest was immense and so was Romeu. Djenepo didn’t have scoobie and had a stinker...think we may Redmond next week or perhaps Ings/Che up top and Theo on left. Loving the performances at the minute.

[Dark Munster]

  On 08/12/2020 at 21:13, Weston Saint said:

An afterthought....

After 11 games last season we were 18th with 8 points and a -17 goal difference.  Watford and Norwich were below us and ended up relegated. The other was Bournemouth 7th with 16 points and  + 1 goal difference.   

 

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-17 goal difference after only 11 games?? Are you sure?

Oh wait ...

[niceandfriendly]

  On 08/12/2020 at 19:55, BERMUDASAINT said:

You really think he is as dumb as you? Please look again to see if he did it deliberately. The man gives his all and you think  this is what he is practicing along with his free kicks, a tribute to Maradona maybe?

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He was appealing for a handball against Welbeck, as many Saints fans also did while watching live. Unfortunately it didn't actually hit Webeck's hand and instead hit Prowse's as he stuck his air up to appeal. 

 

So he meant to put his arm up, but didn't mean to slap the ball. Either way it was a penalty.

[niceandfriendly]

as he stuck his up in the air to appeal**

[Toussaint]

  On 09/12/2020 at 00:41, Saint Fan CaM said:

Thought Potter did a good job of tactically nullifying our play in the first - they were trying to stretch us wide and exploiting the holes. It was working well until Ralph made some changes which helped us get a foothold. Vest was immense and so was Romeu. Djenepo didn’t have scoobie and had a stinker...think we may Redmond next week or perhaps Ings/Che up top and Theo on left. Loving the performances at the minute.

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I said on the match thread we have been worked out, starting with Wolves. I believe there are times when Ralph needs to change things quicker, we were fortunate the game wasn’t gone by half time, we were also fortunate to still have ten, I was convinced Djneppo was going to get sent off.

Edited 9 December, 2020 by Toussaint

[Ted Bates Statue]

  On 09/12/2020 at 00:01, OttawaSaint said:

So what you are saying is, anything above 16pts at this stage and we’re safe!

*checks table* 20 points! Lovely jubbly!

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Like us, Hull had 20 points from 11 games in 2008 and they ended up finishing the season with 35 points, escaping relegation by a point. So yeah, hopefully we will be safe too

[the saint in winchester]

  On 08/12/2020 at 11:58, VectisSaint said:

Where does that quote come from? I'm not sure that it is accurate, it certainly does not appear in the FA Laws of the Game. The FA Laws of the Game (https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct) actually state "If a defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area and continues holding inside the penalty area, the referee must award a penalty kick." No other type of foul (other than holding) has this type of clarification. I don't think anyone could say the foul was awarded for holding was it? The initial foul was a shove, and the action in the box was a trip. According to the FA Law 12 I don't think a penalty should have been awarded, the fould was not for March holding Walker-Peters. 

Still it was given, and I'm happy that we got one for a change. Carragher's assessment was garbage though, he clearly has no idea of the Law, was arguing against it for completely false reasons.

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(QUOTE STARTS HERE)

Law 12 - Fouls and Misconducts

Restart of Play

* If a defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area but continues holding inside the penalty area, the referee shall award a penalty kick.

Although the rule states holding, any foul that initiates outside the box and continues till the box will be punished with a penalty.

(QUOTE ENDS HERE)

[the saint in winchester]

  On 08/12/2020 at 21:14, danjosaint said:

Watch it again, slowly , as the ball comes to Welbeck it looks like he handles it , Jwp puts his arm up to claim handball  unfortunately it hits Welbecks shoulder and not top of arm, purely bad judgement in a split second, that's why he was so livid 

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Yes, that's exactly what I saw too. Initially I thought it was Welbeck's handball, but when slowed down, agree it is Prowsey. If he was appealing for a handball by Welbeck, that would explain why his hand was raised.

[VectisSaint]

  On 09/12/2020 at 14:08, the saint in winchester said:

(QUOTE STARTS HERE)

Law 12 - Fouls and Misconducts

Restart of Play

* If a defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area but continues holding inside the penalty area, the referee shall award a penalty kick.

Although the rule states holding, any foul that initiates outside the box and continues till the box will be punished with a penalty.

(QUOTE ENDS HERE)

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So your quote was not a quote and is fundamentally different to what is in the Laws of the Game, which I had read and which you have now pasted. The part about holding is fundamental, there was no 'holding' in the play on Monday that lead to the pen., so this section is not applicable. Simple really. 

[VectisSaint]

  On 08/12/2020 at 15:02, Whitey Grandad said:

Not so I’m afraid. That is explicitly allowed in The Laws. I don’t think it’s right either. Especially now that they are getting hot on goalkeepers leaving their line.

The whistle wasn’t blown until KWP is on the ground so you cannot say that it was blown for the ‘initial’ foul. It was a comprehensive foul, not two separate ones. The ref wasn’t in the best position either.

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Bit surprised at you Whitey, as you always claim to be a former ref. Blowing the whistle is nothing to do with it, blowing the whistle is simply a means to stop (or start) play (ignoring the fact that you cannot tell when a whistle is blown wat hing on TV, speed of light, speed of sound etc., and also allowing for a long reaction time for a ref to actually do such a thing). It's what the referee indicates after he has blown the whistle that is important. He made no attempt to signal that he was playing advantage (though to be fair there was not time to do so) and clearly indicated the foul that he was penalising was a direct free kick outside the area (which it clearly was, I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise). There is no legitimate reason for VAR to have overturned the referee's decision and awarded a pen. None. And as for Carragher's remarks, well they were just borne out of pure ignorance, not for the first time of course. I'm mighty glad they did overrule it though, cos I don't think we would have won it any other way. Makes up for all the times decisions go against us. 

[Alanh]

  On 09/12/2020 at 14:45, VectisSaint said:

Bit surprised at you Whitey, as you always claim to be a former ref. Blowing the whistle is nothing to do with it, blowing the whistle is simply a means to stop (or start) play (ignoring the fact that you cannot tell when a whistle is blown wat hing on TV, speed of light, speed of sound etc., and also allowing for a long reaction time for a ref to actually do such a thing). It's what the referee indicates after he has blown the whistle that is important. He made no attempt to signal that he was playing advantage (though to be fair there was not time to do so) and clearly indicated the foul that he was penalising was a direct free kick outside the area (which it clearly was, I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise). There is no legitimate reason for VAR to have overturned the referee's decision and awarded a pen. None. And as for Carragher's remarks, well they were just borne out of pure ignorance, not for the first time of course. I'm mighty glad they did overrule it though, cos I don't think we would have won it any other way. Makes up for all the times decisions go against us. 

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Remember that the ref and VAR can talk to each other.  Perhaps the VAR asked if the ref was sure that the fould didn't continue inside the box.  The ref said he wasn't sure so VAR checked.  That's all perfectly within the remit of VAR and essentially what it should be used for.

[the saint in winchester]

  On 09/12/2020 at 14:31, VectisSaint said:

So your quote was not a quote and is fundamentally different to what is in the Laws of the Game, which I had read and which you have now pasted. The part about holding is fundamental, there was no 'holding' in the play on Monday that lead to the pen., so this section is not applicable. Simple really. 

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The only part there that you have stated correctly is the final 2 words. I first gave you a restatement of the exact words I then retyped from laws of the game, as you didn't accept my first comment. Now you totally disregard the laws of the game typed for you, as you think you know better? It doesn't have to be holding specifically, that's what Law 12 says. In your interpretation, presumably you can bite, use a chainsaw etc because only holding is outlawed? The fouling started outside the box, continues inside the box, so IS a penalty. Simple really.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 09/12/2020 at 14:45, VectisSaint said:

Bit surprised at you Whitey, as you always claim to be a former ref. Blowing the whistle is nothing to do with it, blowing the whistle is simply a means to stop (or start) play (ignoring the fact that you cannot tell when a whistle is blown wat hing on TV, speed of light, speed of sound etc., and also allowing for a long reaction time for a ref to actually do such a thing). It's what the referee indicates after he has blown the whistle that is important. He made no attempt to signal that he was playing advantage (though to be fair there was not time to do so) and clearly indicated the foul that he was penalising was a direct free kick outside the area (which it clearly was, I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise). There is no legitimate reason for VAR to have overturned the referee's decision and awarded a pen. None. And as for Carragher's remarks, well they were just borne out of pure ignorance, not for the first time of course. I'm mighty glad they did overrule it though, cos I don't think we would have won it any other way. Makes up for all the times decisions go against us. 

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I don’t claim to be, I was a qualified referee and technically I still am. The whistle is what stops play normally what restarts it. Football is not played on TV  so what you see or hear there is not relevant. A referee can change his/her mind provided the game has not been restarted.

You can’t indicate advantage of course because the offended player was on the ground too quickly but the principle is still there. It was one continuous foul lasting a fraction of a second that was very clearly inside the area and the referees between themselves eventually agreed.

I don’t really understand the problem with this outcome to be honest. In my view it was a clear and obvious error considering the position of the referee at the time.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 09/12/2020 at 18:07, the saint in winchester said:

The only part there that you have stated correctly is the final 2 words. I first gave you a restatement of the exact words I then retyped from laws of the game, as you didn't accept my first comment. Now you totally disregard the laws of the game typed for you, as you think you know better? It doesn't have to be holding specifically, that's what Law 12 says. In your interpretation, presumably you can bite, use a chainsaw etc because only holding is outlawed? The fouling started outside the box, continues inside the box, so IS a penalty. Simple really.

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I agree with all that you say but that foul took only half a second or so.

[Mr X]

Bit worrying that Ralph thinks it was a clear penalty when literally every commentator says it wasn't, I guess his natural bias to us is a good thing

 

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/18927931.thats-var---hasenhuttl-says-foul-walker-peters-clear-penalty/

 

 

[wild-saint]

  On 09/12/2020 at 19:50, Mr X said:

Bit worrying that Ralph thinks it was a clear penalty when literally every commentator says it wasn't, I guess his natural bias to us is a good thing

 

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/18927931.thats-var---hasenhuttl-says-foul-walker-peters-clear-penalty/

 

 

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Why is it worrying out of interest? I can’t say I’ve been sat here thinking  oh shit Ralph thinks it was a penalty he must be owing the plot

[Chocolate Box]

Bored now. Move on. We got the win.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 09/12/2020 at 22:47, Chocolate Box said:

Bored now. Move on. We got the win.

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Amen to that.

[Dark Munster]

  On 09/12/2020 at 22:56, Whitey Grandad said:

Amen to that.

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I'll see your Amen and raise you an Hallelujah.

[saintquin]

We won, I'm happy! 🤸‍♂️ 🤸‍♂️

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 10/12/2020 at 17:57, Dark Munster said:

I'll see your Amen and raise you an Hallelujah.

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Didn’t he play for Newcastle?