Things That are Racist

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, ant said:

There seems to be a common theme running through this thread of "we must listen to the motivations of the Millwall fans" (which I wholeheartedly agree with), whilst in virtually the same breath stating "I don't want to see or hear about this gesture any more - time to end it".

Is that not quite problematic and hypocritical in itself? Burying it may be convenient, but does nothing to address the root cause.

Pointing towards Kick It Out and the status quo ante is reductive. Clearly it wasn't effective enough, else we wouldn't be having these conversations.

Of course it's been effective. The world now is the least racist it's ever been. Compare football now to 20 years ago it's night and day. In a crowd of 30,000 you'll always get a handful of people who are racist so it's impossible to eliminate it totally. The problem you have is people look for racism everywhere, doing that you dont find the ones who really are. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

I look forward to seeing these moral crusaders that take the knee and wear rainbow laces, refuse to play in the Qatar World Cup. Condemning supporters for booing is easy, condemning Qatar’s modern slavery & gay rights record, not so. They’ll all be over there. The reporters,  like Oliver Holt and other assorted Wokies, that have been so critical of the Millwall lads,  to the sky sports soft arsed pinkos & Linekar. The jamboree will roll on through without a care in the world. They’ve taken the knee, so are above criticism. They care, you see. 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Saint_Jonny said:

Glad I could impress you. 

LOL, if that's what you think mate, pointing and laughing at the self righteous moral crusaders with their pious, superior attitudes to easy pickings on here. 

[ant]

3 minutes ago, Nolan said:

Not at all. we are one of the most tolerant societies in the world. Hence why recent polling is showing how BLM is deemed to be more divisive than constructive.

 

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Of course it's been effective. The world now is the least racist it's ever been. Compare football now to 20 years ago it's night and day. In a crowd of 30,000 you'll always get a handful of people who are racist so it's impossible to eliminate it totally. The problem you have is people look for racism everywhere, doing that you dont find the ones who really are. 

So are we effectively stating that there isn't enough racism (or great enough systemic imbalance) to justify the messaging?

I'm just not sure we're in the position to judge that.

[Lighthouse]

15 minutes ago, ant said:

There seems to be a common theme running through this thread of "we must listen to the motivations of the Millwall fans" (which I wholeheartedly agree with), whilst in virtually the same breath stating "I don't want to see or hear about this gesture any more - time to end it".

Is that not quite problematic and hypocritical in itself? Burying it may be convenient, but does nothing to address the root cause.

Pointing towards Kick It Out and the status quo ante is reductive. Clearly it wasn't effective enough, else we wouldn't be having these conversations.

The purpose of a gesture is to raise awareness of an issue. If there was some ethnic minority in Dorset we'd never heard of, who's land and wealth was being taken away and given to white people, for example; that would be an appropriate use of a gesture.

Nothing is being buried, the root causes are simply not being discussed at all. All we are doing really is shouting, "racism exists!" repeated and expecting something to change. We're like the Underpants Gnomes on South Park, for anyone who gets that reference.

Take stop and search as a good example. Many people feel people of colour are unfairly targeted, which may well be true but simply shouting, "it's not fair!" Will never change anything. You have to get to the route cause; which has a lot to do with the appalling stabbing statistics in urban areas. That wont change until we can get kids in these areas to stay in schools and out of gangs, which is a lot easier said than done.

Kick it Out is/was as effective as any stand alone slogan can be, without ever actually troubling the causes of the problems.

[Turkish]

 

 

Just now, ant said:

 

So are we effectively stating that there isn't enough racism (or great enough systemic imbalance) to justify the messaging?

I'm just not sure we're in the position to judge that.

Depends what you class as racism i guess. Seeing 1/3 of premier league footballer being black, many of them multi millonaires before their 23rd birthday, along with an England squad which is almost 50% black suggests that racism in football isn't the massive problem the Wokes would like us to believe. 

[rudi7s]

Jesus christ. It makes me desperately sad to see some of the posts on this thread. I don't know where to start, but to equate simply 'being a footballer' or rich, and therefore racism not being a problem in the game / in any walk of life is one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on the BLM debate. 

 

Booing anyone taking a stance against racism and systemic inequality is in and of itself a racist act. The fact some are now twisting this to be some quasi-philosophical statement about being anti-Marxist/about BLM's politics is complete and utter bollocks.

[Saint Billy]

 

8 minutes ago, rudi7s said:

Jesus christ. It makes me desperately sad to see some of the posts on this thread. I don't know where to start, but to equate simply 'being a footballer' or rich, and therefore racism not being a problem in the game / in any walk of life is one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on the BLM debate. 

 

Booing anyone taking a stance against racism and systemic inequality is in and of itself a racist act. The fact some are now twisting this to be some quasi-philosophical statement about being anti-Marxist/about BLM's politics is complete and utter bollocks.

Just maybe, they are not booing because the players are taking a stance but they are booing because this has gone on long enough. Just like clapping for the NHS came to an end, wouldn't it be timely for this to as the point has been made and now the message could be falling on deaf ears. 

[rudi7s]

4 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

 

Just maybe, they are not booing because the players are taking a stance but they are booing because this has gone on long enough. Just like clapping for the NHS came to an end, wouldn't it be timely for this to as the point has been made and now the message could be falling on deaf ears. 

Yea interesting point - when I hear a collective boo I think wow, what a nuanced, sophisticated point being made - I guess in a way they're equating this to clapping for the NHS which had a beginning and an end. 

[ant]

  

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

The purpose of a gesture is to raise awareness of an issue. If there was some ethnic minority in Dorset we'd never heard of, who's land and wealth was being taken away and given to white people, for example; that would be an appropriate use of a gesture.

Nothing is being buried, the root causes are simply not being discussed at all. All we are doing really is shouting, "racism exists!" repeated and expecting something to change. We're like the Underpants Gnomes on South Park, for anyone who gets that reference.

Take stop and search as a good example. Many people feel people of colour are unfairly targeted, which may well be true but simply shouting, "it's not fair!" Will never change anything. You have to get to the route cause; which has a lot to do with the appalling stabbing statistics in urban areas. That wont change until we can get kids in these areas to stay in schools and out of gangs, which is a lot easier said than done.

Kick it Out is/was as effective as any stand alone slogan can be, without ever actually troubling the causes of the problems.

Can't agree that an issue has to be novel to be worthy of highlighting. Can only speak for myself, of course, but I've been exposed to an awful lot of information and insight in 2020 that I wasn't previously privy to.

No, surface-deep messaging alone doesn't affect change - but there's value in attempting to open a dialogue and keep it in the public consciousness.

What doesn't help it go beyond the first step is when you have one person saying "This isn't fine", or " I'm not OK" and another sticking their fingers in their ears and saying "Everything is fine! We're relatively tolerant, us! Let it be."

How do you make any meaningful progress when that's the case? Nothing will move to policy-level (taking your example, hitting the root cause of violent crime) if nobody can admit there's problems in the first place.

Just now, Turkish said:

 

 

Depends what you class as racism i guess. Seeing 1/3 of premier league footballer being black, many of them multi millonaires before their 23rd birthday, along with an England squad which is almost 50% black suggests that racism in football isn't the massive problem the Wokes would like us to believe. 

Representation is proof that not everybody in football is racist. I'm not convinced it's a useful barometer beyond that, and it's certainly not a nuanced or definitive indication.

9 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

 

Just maybe, they are not booing because the players are taking a stance but they are booing because this has gone on long enough. Just like clapping for the NHS came to an end, wouldn't it be timely for this to as the point has been made and now the message could be falling on deaf ears. 

Has it gone on for long enough? I'm still struggling to see how we're to judge that.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

The very fact that we are having this important discussion is proof that taking the knee is having an effect and is not just a meaningless gesture

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, ant said:

  

Can't agree that an issue has to be novel to be worthy of highlighting. Can only speak for myself, of course, but I've been exposed to an awful lot of information and insight in 2020 that I wasn't previously privy to.

No, surface-deep messaging alone doesn't affect change - but there's value in attempting to open a dialogue and keep it in the public consciousness.

What doesn't help it go beyond the first step is when you have one person saying "This isn't fine", or " I'm not OK" and another sticking their fingers in their ears and saying "Everything is fine! We're relatively tolerant, us! Let it be."

How do you make any meaningful progress when that's the case? Nothing will move to policy-level (taking your example, hitting the root cause of violent crime) if nobody can admit there's problems in the first place.

It has already been highlighted though, decades ago. Nobody needs telling that racism exists to an extent, this isn’t new information. Being exposed to new information is obviously good but that’s not happening with the kneeling. I agree with Les Ferdinand, it’s become a gimmick and a distraction, which is distracting everyone from meaningful discussion. This is what’s happening now, rather than discussing any actual racial issues, we’re discussing the booing of a gesture. The whole debate has become vacuous and asinine.

 

To have meaningful dialogue, you have to have open minded people willing to listen on both sides of the debate. That includes both the Millwall fans and people like Dion Dublin. You can’t stick your fingers in your ears and say, "there’s no problem," nor can you stick your fingers in your ears and say, "well if they don’t like it I can only assume they must be racist." I’m willing to listen but right now there is so little of any sense or value being said.

 

All that being said and despite what many will say, I honestly believe we’re one of the most tolerant, multicultural societies in the world. I’m struggling to think of many places in the world where so many different races, cultures and nationalities live together in such relative harmony as London.

[Lord Duckhunter]

18 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

The very fact that we are having this important discussion is proof that taking the knee is having an effect and is not just a meaningless gesture

John Terry is on the Villa bench as they take the knee,  Liverpool supporters applaud their club for taking the knee, and  players taking the knee will be flying out to Qatar for a World Cup, proof that it’s a meaningless gesture. You can bet your life if Danny Ings does a Suarez, not many of the woke saints fans will want him sacked. 
 

 

Edited 7 December, 2020 by Lord Duckhunter

[Ex Lion Tamer]

9 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

John Terry is on the Villa bench as they take the knee,  Liverpool supporters applaud their club for taking the knee, and  players taking the knee will be flying out to Qatar for a World Cup, proof that it’s a meaningless gesture. You can bet your life if Danny Ings does a Suarez, not many of the woke saints fans will want him sacked. 
 

 

None of what you've just said invalidates what I've said

[Lord Duckhunter]

6 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

None of what you've just said invalidates what I've said

So you think anonymous blokes discussing it on a football forum proves its not a meaningless gesture. I’m sure lots of BAME people will agree & be grateful our discussion will change their lives for the better. 
Personally, I’d have thought Liverpool sacking Suarez, John Terry being banned for 6 months and  players boycotting the World Cup would be slightly more meaningful. 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Going back to stop and search, because it is an important part of this issue, here's an example of why it is causing such resentment:

Quote

Ken Hinds is a pillar of his community. He is a youth worker and conflict engagement
specialist involved in high risk gang mediation. He lives in Edmonton, north
London. He established his own carnival youth group, Ruff Diamonds, and the Home
Office recently cleared him to work as a consultant to the police as a gang mediator.
Last October he received a commendation from the Metropolitan Police for his ‘courage,
tenacity and dedication’ in tackling knife crime. Most recently he has been part of the
Haringey black advisory group who won the Safer Communities award 2010 in the
category of most outstanding volunteers within the criminal justice system for their
work in tackling local gang violence.

In his day-to-day encounters with the police, however, Hinds says he is often assumed to
be a criminal. ‘I’m stopped and searched on average five to six times a year,’ he says. ‘It
started happening when I was 13 or 14 and I’m 50 now, so you can work out the
numbers. It can happen anywhere – when I’m driving, or on the train, or when I step
out of my house to go to the sweet shop. It always starts with a question about
something small, and then escalates to a search. They usually say you fit a
description.’

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/race-britain/stop-and-think

For anyone willing to learn rather than stay in entrenched positions, the report also looked at whether people of colour really get stop and searched more because their is more crime in their communities (P54). It is very hard to get definitive evidence so we'll never be able to solve the issue, but ‘self-report’ studies have shown consistently that rates of involvement in offending and drug use are similar among white and black respondents and significantly lower among Asian respondents. At the very least we can't say for sure that stop and search isn't being misused.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

4 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So you think anonymous blokes discussing it on a football forum proves its not a meaningless gesture. I’m sure lots of BAME people will agree & be grateful our discussion will change their lives for the better. 
Personally, I’d have thought Liverpool sacking Suarez, John Terry being banned for 6 months and  players boycotting the World Cup would be slightly more meaningful. 

That's like saying we haven't cured cancer so all research thus far has been meaningless. This is a process of changing and opening people's minds through discussion

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, shirleysfc said:

The Premier League dropped the use of the 'Black Lives Matter' slogan in the summer and swapped it for their own 'No Room for Racism' message. There were various reports last month that they were trying to distance themselves further from the 'Black Lives Matter' campaign whilst still supporting any teams/players that want to take the knee before matches as an anti-racism message.

Taking the knee is inextricably linked to the black lives matter movement for many. The damage is already done and is continuing to be done the longer it goes on. 

[Jeremy Corbyn]

The good thing about all this, is no matter how much people argue, the "lEfT wInG aGeNdA" will win out.  There is a much more to be gained, socially and financially by being pro-actively anti-racist than to pander to the angry anti-woke mob.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, rudi7s said:

Jesus christ. It makes me desperately sad to see some of the posts on this thread. I don't know where to start, but to equate simply 'being a footballer' or rich, and therefore racism not being a problem in the game / in any walk of life is one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on the BLM debate. 

 

Booing anyone taking a stance against racism and systemic inequality is in and of itself a racist act. The fact some are now twisting this to be some quasi-philosophical statement about being anti-Marxist/about BLM's politics is complete and utter bollocks.

I think the point is that many don't see taking the knee as simply just taking a stance on racism and systemic inequality. 

[Jeremy Corbyn]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think the point is that many don't see taking the knee as simply just taking a stance on racism and systemic inequality. 

They do.  Lots of people pretend that it's because of BLM and their apparent marxism, but they don't really care about that, it's just a convenient argument that makes them look less racist/anti-anti-racist.

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Going back to stop and search, because it is an important part of this issue, here's an example of why it is causing such resentment:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/race-britain/stop-and-think

For anyone willing to learn rather than stay in entrenched positions, the report also looked at whether people of colour really get stop and searched more because their is more crime in their communities (P54). It is very hard to get definitive evidence so we'll never be able to solve the issue, but ‘self-report’ studies have shown consistently that rates of involvement in offending and drug use are similar among white and black respondents and significantly lower among Asian respondents. At the very least we can't say for sure that stop and search isn't being misused.

You say "At the very least we can't say for sure that stop and search isn't being misused".  That's a curious statement and suggests that you feel it necessary that evidence is shown to prove that there is no misuse. That's not how it works - the police are not presumed guilty of misuse unless they can prove otherwise.

As to stop and search, do you not feel reassured that someone "fitting a description" is stopped and searched? Would you prefer no action be taken?

I must confess that I haven't tread the document you link to, but when I hear reports of kids being stabbed, the victims and perpetrators are usually black. If that's the case (I am happy to be corrected if I misunderstand the position) how can there be any objection to searching the kids in areas where that stuff happens?

Regardless, the issue in this thread  is that football has associated itself with the actions and name of Black Lives Matters (BLM) and footy players are compelled to kneel in support of that.  The BLM organisation is the flip side of the EDL and nobody should be made to support it. The actions of the Millwall fans and the comments on this forum show how divisive the issue is.

If footy players really are to be the public focus, do it in a way that does not oblige them to virtue signal, and do not do it in the name of an organisation that does not stand for racial equality.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

5 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

They do.  Lots of people pretend that it's because of BLM and their apparent marxism, but they don't really care about that, it's just a convenient argument that makes them look less racist/anti-anti-racist.

What a load of pony. Because someone doesn’t support taking of the knee week in week out they must be racist. Is it the same with the ridiculous clapping in X minute that goes on most weeks. Not clapping and cheering on the 42nd minute doesn’t mean I’m glad Fred from New Milton passed away at the early age of 42. It doesn’t mean I’m not aware of the disease that Fred died of, or don’t feel sorry for his young family. It’s just that I don’t think it’s appropriate at a football match. 

[Jeremy Corbyn]

4 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What a load of pony. Because someone doesn’t support taking of the knee week in week out they must be racist. Is it the same with the ridiculous clapping in X minute that goes on most weeks. Not clapping and cheering on the 42nd minute doesn’t mean I’m glad Fred from New Milton passed away at the early age of 42. It doesn’t mean I’m not aware of the disease that Fred died of, or don’t feel sorry for his young family. It’s just that I don’t think it’s appropriate at a football match. 

In case it's not clear, let me explain the difference between "not doing something" and "doing something".  Not doing something is not doing a thing that you could do.  Doing something is doing something you don't have to.

Not clapping = not doing something, in this situation you are not making a conscious effort to voice opposition to something, you might just not care.

Booing an anti-racist action = doing something, in this situation you are making a conscious effort to show you are against the anti-racist action.

[Bearsy]

I don't like to be preached on tbh. It makes me feel defensive and irritated.

I'll take a certain amount of it though; we strive to be open mind. If my mum said to me, 'nose-picking is evil', I would be like, ok mum. If she kept standing in front of TV when I'm trying to watch football though, repeating it over and over, I would become defensive and irritated. I know I would. I can't help it. 'Yes, mum, I know! Why you keep telling me! I'm not even picking my nose! Booooo! Booooooo!'

 

[Scully]

Initially I was very supportive of taking the knee to make a statement but it's getting a bit samey now and definitely not having any kind of impact like it did at first. Should probably stop and look to support actual change where possible

[Wes Tender]

Sums up the whole sorry charade perfectly. The Woke brigade have taken things too far and there will soon be an increasing backlash against it.

[Plastic]

9 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

Sums up the whole sorry charade perfectly. The Woke brigade have taken things too far and there will soon be an increasing backlash against it.

Pretty much agree with this. The groupthink is out of control.

[Saint_Jonny]

17 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

Sums up the whole sorry charade perfectly. The Woke brigade have taken things too far and there will soon be an increasing backlash against it.

Giving Millwall fans far too much credit. 

[Turkish]

52 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

Sums up the whole sorry charade perfectly. The Woke brigade have taken things too far and there will soon be an increasing backlash against it.

"supporting BLM is really a way to indicate you are a good person, you are an acceptable member of the WOKE establishment, have all the right opinions, signalling to the world you are on the right side of the argument. There is huge pressure to confirm to this ideology to prove they are a decent person."

Nails it right there.

[Wes Tender]

38 minutes ago, Saint_Jonny said:

Giving Millwall fans far too much credit. 

I look forward to fans from all football clubs booing this ridiculous virtue signalling nonsense. 

[egg]

58 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

Sums up the whole sorry charade perfectly. The Woke brigade have taken things too far and there will soon be an increasing backlash against it.

Spot on. It's a shame that Sky News UK are not reporting this in the same open and frank way that Sky New Australia have. 

[Pedantic Pete]

6 hours ago, Saint_Jonny said:

It's amazing how the closet racists and baby boomers scared of people that don't look like them still use this as a rallying point to disguise their apathy. It's all in the "I don't like people wot duznt look like me" play book:

• Complain about brining "politics into football" (it's not politics, it's using a platform to promote equality, you thick cunts)
• Call out "virtue signalling" in football / football fans / football organisations 
• Link the phrase "Black Lives Matter" to a US political organisation and use that to discredit the whole argument

If Millwall are Gammon F.C then we must be Ham Utd with the amount of knuckle dragging bellends I see posting on here.

Do you really think that posting this would change any bodies mind? Are you trying to get your "fellow" Saints fans to think differently or just trying to trigger a reaction?

I am really interested in what someone is thinking when posting this sort of stuff on social media?

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, Wes Tender said:

Sums up the whole sorry charade perfectly. The Woke brigade have taken things too far and there will soon be an increasing backlash against it.

Brendan O'Neill once again proving what a provocative and ignorant bellend he is. His opening statement about what BLM is is chock full of the same false claims used by many other people to deride and dismiss the movement.

[Saint_Jonny]

21 minutes ago, Pedantic Pete said:

Do you really think that posting this would change any bodies mind? Are you trying to get your "fellow" Saints fans to think differently or just trying to trigger a reaction?

I am really interested in what someone is thinking when posting this sort of stuff on social media?

What is it about my post you don't agree with / not understand? Maybe I shouldn't have dropped the C-bomb - but the idea that our society is still swelling with people that cannot bare to see causes furthered that don't benefit themselves directly is absolutely maddening.  

We're talking about an anti-racist action that was booed by a bunch of football fans. How that can be twisted into "The lads from Millwall are upset by the use of our beautiful game to further political ideas" is plainly bollocks. 

All I see are a bunch of white blokes who are so wrapped up in their own lives (not necessarily their fault) that they cannot see that by just being a white bloke they are afforded, often subconsciously, a life and the opportunities that come with it that a black or ethnic minority background person just does not get. That is what this is about. Just because bananas don't get chucked at footballers anymore doesn't mean there aren't societal issues that still need sorting to level the playing field for everyone, regardless of background.

[Turkish]

19 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Brendan O'Neill once again proving what a provocative and ignorant bellend he is. His opening statement about what BLM is is chock full of the same false claims used by many other people to deride and dismiss the movement.

Oh look, Sheaf once again dismissing someones view he doesn't agree with as being ignorant and provocative. I thought you preach tolerance?

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, Saint_Jonny said:

What is it about my post you don't agree with / not understand? Maybe I shouldn't have dropped the C-bomb - but the idea that our society is still swelling with people that cannot bare to see causes furthered that don't benefit themselves directly is absolutely maddening.  

We're talking about an anti-racist action that was booed by a bunch of football fans. How that can be twisted into "The lads from Millwall are upset by the use of our beautiful game to further political ideas" is plainly bollocks. 

All I see are a bunch of white blokes who are so wrapped up in their own lives (not necessarily their fault) that they cannot see that by just being a white bloke they are afforded, often subconsciously, a life and the opportunities that come with it that a black or ethnic minority background person just does not get. That is what this is about. Just because bananas don't get chucked at footballers anymore doesn't mean there aren't societal issues that still need sorting to level the playing field for everyone, regardless of background.

Any evidence they were all white blokes?

[Saint_Jonny]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Any evidence they were all white blokes?

Any evidence to the contrary? 

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, Saint_Jonny said:

Any evidence to the contrary? 

It’s not me claiming it’s all white blokes pal. Back up what you say you saw. 

[Saint_Jonny]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

It’s not me claiming it’s all white blokes pal. Back up what you say you saw. 

I've been to the den - it's not what i'd call a diverse crowd. 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Saint_Jonny said:

I've been to the den - it's not what i'd call a diverse crowd. 

So your evidence that the crowd booing was "all white men wrapped up their own lives" on saturday is the fact that you've been to the Den once. Brilliant! 🤣

[Pedantic Pete]

9 minutes ago, Saint_Jonny said:

What is it about my post you don't agree with / not understand? Maybe I shouldn't have dropped the C-bomb - but the idea that our society is still swelling with people that cannot bare to see causes furthered that don't benefit themselves directly is absolutely maddening.  

We're talking about an anti-racist action that was booed by a bunch of football fans. How that can be twisted into "The lads from Millwall are upset by the use of our beautiful game to further political ideas" is plainly bollocks. 

All I see are a bunch of white blokes who are so wrapped up in their own lives (not necessarily their fault) that they cannot see that by just being a white bloke they are afforded, often subconsciously, a life and the opportunities that come with it that a black or ethnic minority background person just does not get. That is what this is about. Just because bananas don't get chucked at footballers anymore doesn't mean there aren't societal issues that still need sorting to level the playing field for everyone, regardless of background.

I didn't say I agree or disagree with anything you wrote? 

What I do find interesting is that you generically call your "fellow" fans names because some happen to post a few lines that you disagree with. Correct me if I am wrong, but you believe that you can understand some ones thoughts and beliefs from just a few lines on here? It's that bit that intrigues me as it seems more and more that people "think" they know other peoples internal dialogue.

My view is people are more complex than that and education is better than "name calling". Honestly I thought your post was just bear baiting, and what do you know, me asking a question shows I was wrong with that assumption! 🙂

 

 

[manzo]

17 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Oh look, Sheaf once again dismissing someones view he doesn't agree with as being ignorant and provocative. I thought you preach tolerance?

Brendan O'Neil is very much a grifter, a professional contrarian who will hold whatever view he needs to to make some money. Ironically, given that people here are accusing BLM of being Marxist, he is one of those grifters, like Clare Fox, who started life off as members of The Revolutionary Communist Party, then wrote for Living Marxism, which turned in to LM, which is now known as Spiked.

[Turkish]

Just now, manzo said:

Brendan O'Neil is very much a grifter, a professional contrarian who will hold whatever view he needs to to make some money. Ironically, given that people here are accusing BLM of being Marxist, he is one of those grifters, like Clare Fox, who started life off as members of The Revolutionary Communist Party, then wrote for Living Marxism, which turned in to LM, which is now known as Spiked.

What's that got to do with one of this forums elite left yet again dismissing the view of someone he doesn't agree with as ignorant and provocative?

[Saint_Jonny]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So your evidence that the crowd booing was "all white men wrapped up their own lives" on saturday is the fact that you've been to the Den once. Brilliant! 🤣

Yes well done, boil my whole argument down to the fact that I've been to the den once. It's obviously beyond you to have a reasoned argument. All you do it point-score and dodge the meat of any topic. You would make an excellent politician. 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Saint_Jonny said:

Yes well done, boil my whole argument down to the fact that I've been to the den once. It's obviously beyond you to have a reasoned argument. All you do it point-score and dodge the meat of any topic. You would make an excellent politician. 

So you dont have any evidence then, thought not. Glad you finally admitted it. Yet another assumption and more false propaganda. 

Edited 7 December, 2020 by Turkish

[Saint_Jonny]

Just now, Turkish said:

So you dont have any evidence then, thought not. Glad you finally admitted it.

And you have nothing worth while add beyond picking at an anecdotal remark made in my otherwise bulletproof, entirely sane and brilliantly written post. Glad we agree and can move on with our lives.

[manzo]

Just now, Turkish said:

What's that got to do with one of this forums elite left yet again dismissing the view of someone he doesn't agree with as ignorant and provocative?

Er, I'm saying that everything O'Neil says is deliberately provocative, and has nothing to do with facts or evidence. I didn't think my post was that obtuse that you couldn't work that out, so I can only apologise for that.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Saint_Jonny said:

And you have nothing worth while add beyond picking at an anecdotal remark made in my otherwise bulletproof, entirely sane and brilliantly written post. Glad we agree and can move on with our lives.

you dont have rate yourself, what an arrogant tosser!

[Alanh]

Colchester Chairman seems to have summed it up eloquently after booing at their home match on Saturday.  I hope Saints would take a similar stand and offer refunds if season ticket holders felt they couldn't attend because they were so offended by players taking the knee.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55213641