Things That are Racist

[Turkish]

Just now, Fan The Flames said:

I don't know, all I know is we've had black players all my football watching life, but we still have very few black managers. You would have thought the figure would be higher.

There have been English players in the premier league all my football watching life, but we still have very few English managers. You would have thought the figure would have been higher.

[Fan The Flames]

7 hours ago, Turkish said:

There have been English players in the premier league all my football watching life, but we still have very few English managers. You would have thought the figure would have been higher.

There are 64 (49 English) UK managers in the Football League, 69% and 30% in the PL, the largest nationality.

I'm not saying the reason for a limited number of black managers is this, that or the other. I don't know, just that you would have thought the numbers would be higher.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

There are 64 (49 English) UK managers in the Football League, 69% and 30% in the PL, the largest nationality.

I'm not saying the reason for a limited number of black managers is this, that or the other. I don't know, just that you would have thought the numbers would be higher.

That might have something to do with football league being played in England. I’m pretty sure if you looked at the French league most of the managers would be French. Mind blowing isn’t it
 

until we know how many qualified black coaches there are and we can compare that to the overalll number then again v how many are employed that would be the real test rather than just brashly claiming 25% of coaches were black over a very short time frame then demanding the overall number employed should be higher.
 

Simple maths tells you that if there are 10000 coaching jobs available if 1000 coaches qualified in the last two years 250 were black and every single one of them got a job straight away then then the overall percentage employed would still be significantly lower than the 25%. It’s very lazy and entitled behaviour 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Black coaches have been discussed recently on a couple of Simon Jordons podcasts, with both Paul Ince & Les Ferdinand implying it’s a racist issue. Jordon pointed out a lot of what we’re saying here. Firstly as an owner he couldn’t give a shiny what colour his manager was, and said he’d never met anyone in the game who cared what colour a manager was. He said to Ferdinand that he was DOF at QPR & his record wasn’t great, which probably held him back more than skin colour. As well as the  fact ince captained England,  and nobody was bothered. Whilst both players faced horrendous racism in their youth, neither convinced me racism is why they’re not managing now. Ince  even admitted that due to diversity quotas a disproportionate amount of top black players get media gigs, so don’t need to go into management. 

[Fan The Flames]

5 hours ago, Turkish said:

That might have something to do with football league being played in England. I’m pretty sure if you looked at the French league most of the managers would be French. Mind blowing isn’t it
 

until we know how many qualified black coaches there are and we can compare that to the overalll number then again v how many are employed that would be the real test rather than just brashly claiming 25% of coaches were black over a very short time frame then demanding the overall number employed should be higher.
 

Simple maths tells you that if there are 10000 coaching jobs available if 1000 coaches qualified in the last two years 250 were black and every single one of them got a job straight away then then the overall percentage employed would still be significantly lower than the 25%. It’s very lazy and entitled behaviour 

I don't know what you first paragraph is about, I was answering your silly point about there being too few English managers.

I agree that the stats in that article are a bit all over the place. I was simply saying that empirical evidence suggests you would expect to see more black managers.

[Turkish]

28 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Black coaches have been discussed recently on a couple of Simon Jordons podcasts, with both Paul Ince & Les Ferdinand implying it’s a racist issue. Jordon pointed out a lot of what we’re saying here. Firstly as an owner he couldn’t give a shiny what colour his manager was, and said he’d never met anyone in the game who cared what colour a manager was. He said to Ferdinand that he was DOF at QPR & his record wasn’t great, which probably held him back more than skin colour. As well as the  fact ince captained England,  and nobody was bothered. Whilst both players faced horrendous racism in their youth, neither convinced me racism is why they’re not managing now. Ince  even admitted that due to diversity quotas a disproportionate amount of top black players get media gigs, so don’t need to go into management. 

how Paul Ince can whinge is beyond me, he got a premier league management job and was shit and has been shit in every job he’s had since then too. Why does no one ever tell them this when they’re going on about racism?

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

I don't know what you first paragraph is about, I was answering your silly point about there being too few English managers.

I agree that the stats in that article are a bit all over the place. I was simply saying that empirical evidence suggests you would expect to see more black managers.

How is it a silly point? There are 4 English premier league managers, why is that? Youd think there would be more given the league is in England and full of English players

a few years ago there was a big campaign because not many black managers did badges no they obviously hit their quota there whinging that the percentage in work is too low, it’s going to take time to hit that quota. it’s entitled to suggest they should all get a job straight away, what about the 75% that aren’t black that have done the same hard work?

Edited March 21 by Turkish

[Fan The Flames]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

How is it a silly point? There are 4 English premier league managers, why is that? Youd think there would be more given the league is in England and full of English players

a few years ago there was a big campaign because not many black managers did badges no they obviously hit their quota there whinging that the percentage in work is too low, it’s going to take time to hit that quota. it’s entitled to suggest they should all get a job straight away, what about the 75% that aren’t black that have done the same hard work?

It was a silly point. You're just whinging and entitled.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

It was a silly point. You're just whinging and entitled.

Explain how you saying there's always been black players so you'd expect more black managers is any different to saying there has always been English players in the premier league so you'd expect more English managers?

[Fan The Flames]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Explain how you saying there's always been black players so you'd expect more black managers is any different to saying there has always been English players in the premier league so you'd expect more English managers?

See you have to throw the Premier League into your statement to try and make it less silly. But it's silly because 69% is a high number of UK managers in the 92.

Even in the Prem, UK managers represent the highest grouping, and no one needs to explain to you that the Prem is a world class league and so open to the world wide talent pool.

[Turkish]

10 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

See you have to throw the Premier League into your statement to try and make it less silly. But it's silly because 69% is a high number of UK managers in the 92.

Even in the Prem, UK managers represent the highest grouping, and no one needs to explain to you that the Prem is a world class league and so open to the world wide talent pool.

that isn't an explanation to the question i raised.

 

However you raise a very good point, so can you now list the world class black managers.

[Fan The Flames]

43 minutes ago, Turkish said:

that isn't an explanation to the question i raised.

 

However you raise a very good point, so can you now list the world class black managers.

If you think that isn't an explanation then I'll drop out of this discussion.

[Turkish]

56 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

If you think that isn't an explanation then I'll drop out of this discussion.

Can’t name the world class black managers then? Come on you’d think there would be some there are loads of world class black players 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

The guy we were considering to be our technical director

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68649991

Back, when he was linked with us...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/11/13/southampton-consider-approach-norwich-technical-director-stuart/

[badgerx16]

Genuine question; there is an MA course at the Open University for which the fees are £7000. However, if you are a "person of black heritage' there are bursaries available to defray the cost. Is this, in effect, racist ?

[Weston Super Saint]

3 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Genuine question; there is an MA course at the Open University for which the fees are £7000. However, if you are a "person of black heritage' there are bursaries available to defray the cost. Is this, in effect, racist ?

Depends. What is the MA the on?

 

[badgerx16]

48 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Depends. What is the MA the on?

 

Creative writing.

[pingpong]

3 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Genuine question; there is an MA course at the Open University for which the fees are £7000. However, if you are a "person of black heritage' there are bursaries available to defray the cost. Is this, in effect, racist ?

Almost certainly not. This is an example of positive action and I've yet to see a case that wasn't evidence based, although im sure there will be exceptions, but given it costs them money, not likely. Basically these schemes are completely legal (and not racist), as covered by the equality act, see below.  Basically, they will have identified a disproportionate disadvantage for black applicants, and are using bursaries to try and address it. It is there because currently, white students are at an advantage when applying for those courses. I'd be surprised if there was any other reason, eg black people trying to dominate creative writing courses etc. although I suppose it is possible.  Most universities publish their race action plans etc you could probably dig and find their evidence.

"action that may involve treating one group more favourably where this is a proportionate way to help members of that group overcome a disadvantage or participate more fully, or in order to meet needs they have that are different from the population as a whole”.

[Turkish]

43 minutes ago, pingpong said:

Almost certainly not. This is an example of positive action and I've yet to see a case that wasn't evidence based, although im sure there will be exceptions, but given it costs them money, not likely. Basically these schemes are completely legal (and not racist), as covered by the equality act, see below.  Basically, they will have identified a disproportionate disadvantage for black applicants, and are using bursaries to try and address it. It is there because currently, white students are at an advantage when applying for those courses. I'd be surprised if there was any other reason, eg black people trying to dominate creative writing courses etc. although I suppose it is possible.  Most universities publish their race action plans etc you could probably dig and find their evidence.

"action that may involve treating one group more favourably where this is a proportionate way to help members of that group overcome a disadvantage or participate more fully, or in order to meet needs they have that are different from the population as a whole”.

how so?

[pingpong]

Just now, Turkish said:

how so?

I am making assumptions, i did try to allude to that. It will be based on whatever data they have. If it isn't, then they would be open to claims of discrimination. Very unlikely, given that they cost money and most universities wouldn't part with money for something like this without justifying the cost.

I can speak in general though, as someone who worked in the sector in the past, virtually every instance of recruitment or admissions of any kind show significant differences in your chances of being accepted dependent on your ethnicity, and always  favouring white applicants.

Leeds for example, around 70% of white applicants receive an offer, compared to 50% of black applicants. (Undergrad admissions)

Those gaps depend on a bunch of things, but even when you take into account grades, courses and degree subject choices, there is still a persistent gap of more than 10 ppts.

Coming out the other side, if you look at employment rates of black graduates, they are lower than any other ethnicity, and haven't changed for the last 10 years. 

same with staff, the data is static for the last decade, and waiting for the self correction doesn't seem to be working...

 

[Weston Super Saint]

12 minutes ago, pingpong said:

I am making assumptions, i did try to allude to that. It will be based on whatever data they have. If it isn't, then they would be open to claims of discrimination. Very unlikely, given that they cost money and most universities wouldn't part with money for something like this without justifying the cost.

I can speak in general though, as someone who worked in the sector in the past, virtually every instance of recruitment or admissions of any kind show significant differences in your chances of being accepted dependent on your ethnicity, and always  favouring white applicants.

Leeds for example, around 70% of white applicants receive an offer, compared to 50% of black applicants. (Undergrad admissions)

Those gaps depend on a bunch of things, but even when you take into account grades, courses and degree subject choices, there is still a persistent gap of more than 10 ppts.

Coming out the other side, if you look at employment rates of black graduates, they are lower than any other ethnicity, and haven't changed for the last 10 years. 

same with staff, the data is static for the last decade, and waiting for the self correction doesn't seem to be working...

 

Doesn't that just highlight that the Universities are inherently racist?

Solve THAT issue and there is no need to offer free bursaries.

This policy just seems to be papering the cracks - give out a bursary, tick a box, continue being racist.

[Turkish]

16 minutes ago, pingpong said:

I am making assumptions, i did try to allude to that. It will be based on whatever data they have. If it isn't, then they would be open to claims of discrimination. Very unlikely, given that they cost money and most universities wouldn't part with money for something like this without justifying the cost.

I can speak in general though, as someone who worked in the sector in the past, virtually every instance of recruitment or admissions of any kind show significant differences in your chances of being accepted dependent on your ethnicity, and always  favouring white applicants.

Leeds for example, around 70% of white applicants receive an offer, compared to 50% of black applicants. (Undergrad admissions)

Those gaps depend on a bunch of things, but even when you take into account grades, courses and degree subject choices, there is still a persistent gap of more than 10 ppts.

Coming out the other side, if you look at employment rates of black graduates, they are lower than any other ethnicity, and haven't changed for the last 10 years. 

same with staff, the data is static for the last decade, and waiting for the self correction doesn't seem to be working...

 

Interesting comment. This is Leeds University admission data from last year. It appears that 69% of the applications were from white students but only 53% were offered a place, compared to 31% BAME of which 35% were offered a place.  It appears according to this what you're saying isnt true. Actually a higher percentage of BAME people than apply get an offer.

	Applications		Offers (% indicates the percentage of applicants who were offered a place)		Acceptances (% indicates the percentage of those offered a place who then accepted)
	2022-23		2022-23		2022-23
	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%
Undergraduate
White	32892	69%	17459	53%	4151	24%
BAME	14716	31%	5086	35%	1241	24%
Unknown	2339		929	40%	205	22%
Total	49947		23474	47%	5597	24%

 

 

Edited March 27 by Turkish

[pingpong]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Interesting comment. This is Leeds University admission data from last year. It appears that 69% of the applications were from white students but only 53% were offered a place, compared to 31% BAME of which 35% were offered a place.  It appears according to this what you're saying isnt true. Actually a higher percentage of BAME people than apply get an offer.

	Applications		Offers (% indicates the percentage of applicants who were offered a place)		Acceptances (% indicates the percentage of those offered a place who then accepted)
	2022-23		2022-23		2022-23
	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%
Undergraduate
White	32892	69%	17459	53%	4151	24%
BAME	14716	31%	5086	35%	1241	24%
Unknown	2339		929	40%	205	22%
Total	49947		23474	47%	5597	24%

 

 

I was looking at an older year, but the trend is the same. I know why the confusion, because of how they have worded it, but if you look at the maths, it is not "of which".  The data is showing that 53% of white applicants get an offer, compared to only 35% of black applicants.

[badgerx16]

8 minutes ago, pingpong said:

The data is showing that 53% of white applicants get an offer, compared to only 35% of black applicants.

In that case Weston's comment about institutional racism would seem to be accurate, and as such, surely, they are open to discrimination law suits. I would hope that, by now, Universities operated a "colour blind"' approach to making offers, much as is supposed to happen with employment law, and that therefore, as you have mentioned, other factors must be in play.

However it falls, 'positive' assistance towards a particular group is implicitly discriminatory against, and is a disincentive for, others.

Edited March 27 by badgerx16

[AlexLaw76]

 

[iansums]

I see that Wolf Hall is returning for another series, although this time they are including three leading non-white characters, that's realism out the window.

[badgerx16]

16 minutes ago, iansums said:

I see that Wolf Hall is returning for another series, although this time they are including three leading non-white characters, that's realism out the window.

So presumably it would be alright for Daniel Craig to play Nelson Mandela ?

[iansums]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

So presumably it would be alright for Daniel Craig to play Nelson Mandela ?

I'm thinking Vinnie Jones

[Lord Duckhunter]

18 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

So presumably it would be alright for Daniel Craig to play Nelson Mandela ?

Sexist…

 

A bird would be preferred. Perhaps, Eddie Izzard 

Edited April 4 by Lord Duckhunter

[sadoldgit]

33 minutes ago, iansums said:

I see that Wolf Hall is returning for another series, although this time they are including three leading non-white characters, that's realism out the window.

I am still gutted to find out that the BBC use actors instead of real Daleks and Cybermen. Realism? Pah! And as for the Tardis, why don’t they use a real Time Machine rather than a pretend one? Rubbish! Anyone would think that drama involves suspending disbelief!

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I am still gutted to find out that the BBC use actors instead of real Daleks and Cybermen. Realism? Pah! And as for the Tardis, why don’t they use a real Time Machine rather than a pretend one? Rubbish! Anyone would think that drama involves suspending disbelief!

Dramatising a novel is one thing, rewriting historical fact to pander to a particular mindset is another. None of the Seymours or Boleyns were anything other than white Caucasian in character. Yes there were people of colour in London at the time, probably some at Court, but they were not part of the dynastic manoeuverings within the Tudor palaces.

What if The Crown had cast a non-white actor as one of the Queen's relatives ?

 

Edited April 4 by badgerx16

[iansums]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Dramatising a novel is one thing, rewriting historical fact to pander to a particular mindset is another. None of the Seymours or Boleyns were anything other than white Caucasian in character. Yes there were people of colour in London at the time, probably some at Court, but they were not part of the dynastic manoeuverings within the Tudor palaces.

What if The Crown had cast a non-white actor as one of the Queen's relatives ?

 

This lady would have been happy.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Looks like Soggy struggles to understand the difference between Science Fiction & period drama. 

[Turkish]

50 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Looks like Soggy struggles to understand the difference between Science Fiction & period drama. 

It’s good job daleks aren’t real as he’d have been exterminated a long time ago

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

It’s good job daleks aren’t real as he’d have been exterminated a long time ago

They aren’t real ???

😰

[badgerx16]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

It’s good job daleks aren’t real as he’d have been exterminated a long time ago

Of course they are real. When I was at Bitterne Park Juniors I once had a dream where Daleks took over the school until a herd of T Rex's came out of a volcano and destroyed them. Please don't destroy my illusion.

Edited April 5 by badgerx16

[sadoldgit]

On 04/04/2024 at 13:12, badgerx16 said:

Dramatising a novel is one thing, rewriting historical fact to pander to a particular mindset is another. None of the Seymours or Boleyns were anything other than white Caucasian in character. Yes there were people of colour in London at the time, probably some at Court, but they were not part of the dynastic manoeuverings within the Tudor palaces.

What if The Crown had cast a non-white actor as one of the Queen's relatives ?

 

But they aren’t saying that these people were black are they. These characters are just being played by black actors and I think we are all grown up enough nowadays not to expect black actors to wear white make up. The whole point of drama is that it is a reimagining and people have been taking liberties with historical fact for ever. 

[Lighthouse]

8 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

But they aren’t saying that these people were black are they. These characters are just being played by black actors and I think we are all grown up enough nowadays not to expect black actors to wear white make up. The whole point of drama is that it is a reimagining and people have been taking liberties with historical fact for ever. 

I’m sure you will apply that logic evenly and fairly to the upcoming Rosa Parks biopic, starring Vinnie Jones.

[badgerx16]

28 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

But they aren’t saying that these people were black are they. These characters are just being played by black actors and I think we are all grown up enough nowadays not to expect black actors to wear white make up. The whole point of drama is that it is a reimagining and people have been taking liberties with historical fact for ever. 

So, would it be OK for Daniel Craig to play Nelson Mandela ?

[ChrisPY]

20 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

But they aren’t saying that these people were black are they. These characters are just being played by black actors and I think we are all grown up enough nowadays not to expect black actors to wear white make up. The whole point of drama is that it is a reimagining and people have been taking liberties with historical fact for ever. 

Why have prosthetics been used to make actors look more like Prince Andrew and Winston Churchill in recent years?

[Lee On Solent Saint]

On 21/03/2024 at 13:06, Lord Duckhunter said:

Black coaches have been discussed recently on a couple of Simon Jordons podcasts, with both Paul Ince & Les Ferdinand implying it’s a racist issue. Jordon pointed out a lot of what we’re saying here. Firstly as an owner he couldn’t give a shiny what colour his manager was, and said he’d never met anyone in the game who cared what colour a manager was. He said to Ferdinand that he was DOF at QPR & his record wasn’t great, which probably held him back more than skin colour. As well as the  fact ince captained England,  and nobody was bothered. Whilst both players faced horrendous racism in their youth, neither convinced me racism is why they’re not managing now. Ince  even admitted that due to diversity quotas a disproportionate amount of top black players get media gigs, so don’t need to go into management. 

Exactly right. John Barnes and Sol Campbell have had a crack at management and were utter dog shite. Being a shit manager holds them back much more than skin colour. If someone is good enough to do the job, skin colour is irrelevant.

[ChrisPY]

1 hour ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Exactly right. John Barnes and Sol Campbell have had a crack at management and were utter dog shite. Being a shit manager holds them back much more than skin colour. If someone is good enough to do the job, skin colour is irrelevant.

They’re both big names though so that will have helped secure them the job.

I’m not certain a black lower league ex goalkeeper turned physio or black translator would have been given the same opportunity as Nigel Adkins or Jose Mourinho no matter how good a game they talked in terms of their first management role. 
 

There will be plenty of examples of good black, good white, shit black and shit white managers. Ultimately there’s no significant disadvantage to white managers who have plenty of opportunities and support. If they’re better than their black counterparts they will still rise to the top no matter how many initiatives and schemes are in place.

[sadoldgit]

23 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

So, would it be OK for Daniel Craig to play Nelson Mandela ?

I am guessing black actors in African countries have been playing Henry V for years when they stage Shakespeare. Does it really matter? Should we have got a really disfigured person to play The Elephant Man? Why did an Australian play William Wallace? I think there are probably more important things to worry about than black actors playing white characters.

[Lord Duckhunter]

On 05/04/2024 at 18:27, sadoldgit said:

These characters are just being played by black actors and I think we are all grown up enough nowadays not to expect black actors to wear white make up.

 

16 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Should we have got a really disfigured person to play The Elephant Man?

By your logic John Hurt should have played him without being made up. 

[badgerx16]

30 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I am guessing black actors in African countries have been playing Henry V for years when they stage Shakespeare. Does it really matter? Should we have got a really disfigured person to play The Elephant Man? Why did an Australian play William Wallace? I think there are probably more important things to worry about than black actors playing white characters.

FWIW, Mel Gibson is American, as indeed is Nicole Kidman. ( And Olivai Newton-John was born in England - so much for famous Aussies ).

The issue is that people are influenced by what they see on the screen, and many will view historical depictions as factually accurate, ( Braveheart is a case in point, it is historical hogwash ). I think that the casting of this new production of Wolf Hall is more to do with "colour blind" casting and preventing comments to the effect that there are not any prominent non-white roles in the show.

Edited April 6 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 

By your logic John Hurt should have played him without being made up. 

Like David Bowie did on stage.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

I am guessing black actors in African countries have been playing Henry V for years when they stage Shakespeare. Does it really matter? Should we have got a really disfigured person to play The Elephant Man? Why did an Australian play William Wallace? I think there are probably more important things to worry about than black actors playing white characters.

You can’t just equate a bunch of random stuff which is nothing to do with each other. Deformities like the elephant man had can be recreated with prosthetics and special effects, as clearly there is not going to be a capable actor with his exact, matching disfigurement. An Aussie can play a Scott by putting on a different accent, he can’t become black (well he can but that’s a whole new can of worms).

A black African playing Henry V in a Shakespeare production (if that was ever a thing) is clearly because it’s an African production and ALL the local actors are black. Getting a black woman to play Anne Boleyn in 21st century Europe is clearly a choice done for nothing other than cheap shock value. If you’re going to do that, why bother with any pretence of historical accuracy. Just have her walking around Tudor court in a Kappa tracksuit and save on costume budget.

[whelk]

Why are there so few black families in tv adverts?

[sadoldgit]

15 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

You can’t just equate a bunch of random stuff which is nothing to do with each other. Deformities like the elephant man had can be recreated with prosthetics and special effects, as clearly there is not going to be a capable actor with his exact, matching disfigurement. An Aussie can play a Scott by putting on a different accent, he can’t become black (well he can but that’s a whole new can of worms).

A black African playing Henry V in a Shakespeare production (if that was ever a thing) is clearly because it’s an African production and ALL the local actors are black. Getting a black woman to play Anne Boleyn in 21st century Europe is clearly a choice done for nothing other than cheap shock value. If you’re going to do that, why bother with any pretence of historical accuracy. Just have her walking around Tudor court in a Kappa tracksuit and save on costume budget.

My point is that it is all just story telling and humans character playing. I can’t recall but did we all kick off about this production three years ago? I am sure you are aware that various Shakespearean productions have been staged in more modern dress so your Kappa things falls flat by the way.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/anne-boleyn-jodie-turner-smith-motherhood-193329705.html#:~:text=And that starts with the,Anne%3A Jodie Turner-Smith.
 

Also whilst on the subject, a black actress playing Juliet is causing distress amongst some…

https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article287419930.html

 

And talking “logically” Ducky, surely it is down to the production team to present their material artistically in any way they chose?

Edited April 7 by sadoldgit
Added text

[badgerx16]

30 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I can’t recall but did we all kick off about this production three years ago? I am sure you are aware that various Shakespearean productions have been staged in more modern dress so your Kappa things falls flat by the way.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/anne-boleyn-jodie-turner-smith-motherhood-193329705.html#:~:text=And that starts with the,Anne%3A Jodie Turner-Smith.
 

Actually there was kickback, hence my reference to it in my post above, and of course the famously understated quote "Our intention was not historical accuracy'.

I understand that sometimes people play around to raise questions and generate debate, but there is always the risk of deliberate distortion to manipulate the gullible who think that because, in the era of Fake News, they have seen something on TV it has to be true. In the case of Shakespear's plays the key is the story and it's morals, the Histories play fast and loose with historical accuracy, the Comedies and Tragedies are simply stories that can be adapted to almost any era and location, and the plays as a whole were written specifically for their audiences. ( And, of course, ALL the parts were originally played by male actors. )

Wolf Hall is set in a specific historical context and location, and is depicting real people and events.

Edited April 7 by badgerx16